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ST Discovery: The Butchers knife cares not for the Lambs cry

mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
edited October 2017 in Ten Forward
So the latest episode has aired, What are your thoughts on this episode?
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.

ST Discovery: The Butchers knife cares not for the Lambs cry 35 votes

I Like it
60%
timv94irm1963chestertrekgaraks31mirrorchaoskurumimorishitamustrumridcully0daveynymhall85ktonof1aqmainavaloreahwildthyme467989markhawkmantylermaxwellsekishinfistevilmark444khan5000bawdytieflingtheraven2378 21 votes
I don't like it
28%
coldnapalmtoivaoriginalspockmeimeitoovelquawhere2r1thelordofshadesdarakosswestyofozshadowslasher410#3475 10 votes
i don't care
5%
thay8472bartimaeus#4158 2 votes
Other (Post your thoughts)
5%
eazzietheanothername 2 votes
«1345

Comments

  • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,985 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    I Like it
    It raised a very good point on the ethical side about the Spore drive, enslaving a creature to act a bio-computer goes against one of the teachings of the Federation that life is sacred. This is making Lorca look as bad as Ransom with his illegal and unethical warp drive
    NMXb2ph.png
      "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
      -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
    • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
      I Like it
      A few things of interest i found illuminating in a way:
      - Klingons ate Georgiou and the other Humans!
      - The Discovery Security officer had a predictable death.
      - Kol has shown himself again and i suspected he would sooner tarnish T'Kuvma's memory than leave him in peace.
      - The cloaking device on T'Kuvma's ship is implied to be a one off and it was Kol's aim all along to take it.
      - Qov and L'Rell are on their own, likely to start a Civil war with Kol unless they can convince him to stand down and go after the Federation with them.
      - Discovery's saucer sections rotate, a very unusual thing to see.

      T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
      Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
    • szimszim Member Posts: 2,503 Arc User
      edited October 2017
      Well first of all... the chief of security. What a complete and utter idiot. Thank goodness she's gone. "I'm such a badass, unfortunetly I'm lacking a brain." :s

      Second, the Klingon plot. The only guy who opposed T'kuvma is coming back, kneeling before you and declaring his allegiance. Then he immediately starts talking about the cloaking device. Suspiscious, you would think? Not to our fanatic albino leader. The more I learn about these new Klingons the less I care about them. Their dialogues are tedious to listen to and their actions are so predictable.

      As for the rest of the episode, I kind of liked it. The creature turning out to be the 'pilot' was a nice idea. The action scenes were great, the CGI impressive.. I'm even starting to like some of the characters. Lieutenant Stamets, Saru, even Burnham.

      6.5/10
    • szimszim Member Posts: 2,503 Arc User
      It raised a very good point on the ethical side about the Spore drive, enslaving a creature to act a bio-computer goes against one of the teachings of the Federation that life is sacred. This is making Lorca look as bad as Ransom with his illegal and unethical warp drive

      That's right, but I think we've also seen that even though Lorca doesn't seem to have a crisis of conscience, Burnham and Lieutenant Stamets certainily do. It's this struggle between 'right', 'wrong' and 'necessary', that I'm enjoying most about Star Trek.
    • originalspockoriginalspock Member Posts: 809 Arc User
      edited October 2017
      I don't like it
      Lorca was the show's best actor, next to Jason Isaacs. Her death was so hamfistedly written. Spore Drive? Really? Remember that one time Nasa used to consult for Star Trek? The creature... is essentially the Renaissance Chekhov's gun for everything to tug at the heart strings at every card carrying member of PETA, not only was it an innocent creature, but it knew how to communicate with his Kibbles & bits & magically it had the entire universal of star charts embedded into it in real time... And how about those Fear tendrils? It's amazing how unhelpful and anti-team this iteration of Trek is.

      Also, how about that 20 minutes of Klingon only dialogue? That's great right? Because speaking in English is too culturally appropriative to Klingons?

      The pet reminds me of the Lassie spoof.
      https://youtube.com/watch?v=TXZgdpLNKkc
      Post edited by originalspock on
    • mhall85mhall85 Member Posts: 2,852 Arc User1
      I Like it
      I think I liked last week's episode better, but it was still pretty good.

      I must admit, the novelty of the Klingon language is totally gone for me. I'm over it, LOL. Speak English, please. (Admittedly, this is probably why this episode didn't beat out last week's episode.)

      On the plus side, I think I like Lorca, LOL. I find him extremely interesting, and I want to see more. He's either one of the greatest captains ever, or he's a complete moron. I still think (or, at least hope) that the writers are only making him seem like a tool, because of the forced mystery elements that the style of this show brings about. Lorca isn't our lead, and we're being kept in the dark about him (along with Burnham). I really hope this pays off.

      Some thoughts on next week's episode, based on this episode and the previews for next week:
      So, the creature is the "brain" of the spore drive... but, judging by the events of this episode, and based on next week's preview, it takes a lot out of the creature. My guess is that the creature will die, in Saru's attempt to save Lorca from the Klingons (and Harry Mudd!). This will raise some interesting ethical conclusions based on the ones started here. Further, if the creature dies, what does this mean for the spore drive? Do they hunt for a new creature? Do they attempt to move on without one? It even looks like Lorca will catch some heat for using the drive (and for plucking Burnham out of the pokey) from Starfleet Command... looking forward to all of this.

      And, one more thing about Landry:
      Her death wasn't as bad as Tasha Yar's, but I still found it completely lacking in any connection or feeling. In fact, all of the deaths so far on this show have lacked emotional weight for me. We've got five characters to follow here (Burnham, Saru, Lorca, Stamets, and Tilly), and those five are getting the most development. Kill one of them, and then I'll care. Anything else, at this point, feels forced or just a glorified red shirt death.
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    • originalspockoriginalspock Member Posts: 809 Arc User
      I don't like it
      valoreah wrote: »
      ...Spore Drive? Really? Remember that one time Nasa used to consult for Star Trek?...

      The idea of panspermia and mycelial networks aren't exactly new to science. It's not that radically different a concept from warp drive.

      Yeah I would say so... not to mention both are on the opposite ends of the scientific spectrum, and one exists in actual hard science while the other exists to grab headlines of news articles on slow news cycles.
    • mhall85mhall85 Member Posts: 2,852 Arc User1
      I Like it
      Oh, and one more thing...

      Name-dropping Elon Musk was stupid. Especially name-dropping him among the the biggest movers-and-shakers in human history.
      d87926bd02aaa4eb12e2bb0fbc1f7061.jpg
    • originalspockoriginalspock Member Posts: 809 Arc User
      I don't like it
      valoreah wrote: »
      Yeah I would say so... not to mention both are on the opposite ends of the scientific spectrum, and one exists in actual hard science while the other exists to grab headlines of news articles on slow news cycles.

      Are you saying warp drive is believable, but traveling along a mycelial network isn't?

      mycelial network is a desperate need to inflate a natural biological design. Warp drive's are semi-theoretical but far more practical in real science and not clickbait. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive It's grounded in mathematical principle and reason. Not moving the goal post of scientific reason.
    • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
      I Like it
      szim wrote: »
      Well first of all... the chief of security. What a complete and utter idiot. Thank goodness she's gone. "I'm such a badass, unfortunetly I'm lacking a brain." :s

      Second, the Klingon plot. The only guy who opposed T'kuvma is coming back, kneeling before you and declaring his allegiance. Then he immediately starts talking about the cloaking device. Suspiscious, you would think? Not to our fanatic albino leader. The more I learn about these new Klingons the less I care about them. Their dialogues are tedious to listen to and their actions are so predictable.

      As for the rest of the episode, I kind of liked it. The creature turning out to be the 'pilot' was a nice idea. The action scenes were great, the CGI impressive.. I'm even starting to like some of the characters. Lieutenant Stamets, Saru, even Burnham.

      6.5/10
      Interestingly, someone pointed out that she was not as dumb as it might have seemed. The monitor tracking Ripper's life signs did indeed show that its signs were weakening, as if it might be unconscious. It wasn't, but what else are you going to go on but your sensor readings here?
      Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
    • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
      • I'm not entirely sold on the spore drive but I'm sure I'll get over it.
      • The Klingons baffle me. One minute I start to think they look better (L'Rell has quite light facial makeup) then I see the weird neck ridges that mean she can't move her head. I was right all along, however, they needed to be seen in motion.
      • Kol's makeup is fine, he manages to be perfectly expressive as well as a nice diabolical nod to the likes of Duras or Gawron.
      • His move for the cloaking device is a nice nod as it's Kor who talks in DS9 of experimenting with one when it was new to them. The albino who's name I can't be bothered with is dull and stupid. Kol has 'devious Klingon' written all over him.
      • This episode overturns my hypothesis that the Klingons got the cloak from the Sulabon or Xyrillians but also dispenses with the stupid fanfiction that they were traded it by the Romulans in return for ships the Romulans could build themselves.
      • Lorca baffles me as well. He's Ransome crossed with Slone and what I suspect the writers wanted to turn Janeway and Archer into (and were ignored by other writers) but he still seems an outright extremist to me. I still suspect he's Section 31.
      • I'm assuming then the outer ring was added to Crossfield Class for the use of the spore drive.
      • Did anybody catch what weapons the Discovery had? They were blue but where they pulses or beams?
      • I find myself really liking Kol. He's exactly what the Klingons were in TNG and DS9, none of that flanderisation of VGR and ENT. And overall they retain the beautiful brutality that the KT established for them.
      • The replicator in action was fantastic to see.

      I love this series. It's not perfect but it's sure stronger to start than any of the others were. I just hope we'll drop the frantic pace for an episode or two to get to know the characters a bit better.​​
      22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
      Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
      JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

      #TASforSTO


      '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
      'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
      'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
      '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
      'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
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    • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
      valoreah wrote: »
      patrickngo wrote: »
      In science fiction, it's an exploration of the possible, whether it's possible worlds, possible societies or possible technologies, to be Science fiction[/b] it needs a scientifically plausible (at least at the time of writing/production) basis. Quantum entanglement is theoretically supported, Alcubierre-White is also theoretically supported, Warp drive is 'we're not there yet' level of a scientifically plausible concept that offers the potential for faster than light travel thanks to the theoretical support.

      I find it very interesting that some things require "hard science" for you, yet others - such as alien life of which we have absolute zero evidence of at this point - requires nothing.

      Alcubierre drives might be "plausible" to the layman, however there are a great many physicists who would beg to differ. It just depends on who you ask. Personally, I seriously doubt humans will ever be able to generate the levels of energy required for such a thing in real life, even if we were to somehow miraculously overcome some of the other issues with it. Read some genuine scientific papers on the subject and you'll find it more and more unlikely to ever happen.



      You're talking to the guy who still thinks holes in event horizons are possible and yet conservative of energy is somehow important in science fiction. I don't think incongruous ideas really matter much to them.
      22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
      Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
      JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

      #TASforSTO


      '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
      'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
      'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
      '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
      'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
      '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

      Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
    • szimszim Member Posts: 2,503 Arc User
      szim wrote: »
      Well first of all... the chief of security. What a complete and utter idiot. Thank goodness she's gone. "I'm such a badass, unfortunetly I'm lacking a brain." :s

      Second, the Klingon plot. The only guy who opposed T'kuvma is coming back, kneeling before you and declaring his allegiance. Then he immediately starts talking about the cloaking device. Suspiscious, you would think? Not to our fanatic albino leader. The more I learn about these new Klingons the less I care about them. Their dialogues are tedious to listen to and their actions are so predictable.

      As for the rest of the episode, I kind of liked it. The creature turning out to be the 'pilot' was a nice idea. The action scenes were great, the CGI impressive.. I'm even starting to like some of the characters. Lieutenant Stamets, Saru, even Burnham.

      6.5/10
      Interestingly, someone pointed out that she was not as dumb as it might have seemed. The monitor tracking Ripper's life signs did indeed show that its signs were weakening, as if it might be unconscious. It wasn't, but what else are you going to go on but your sensor readings here?

      I'm sorry but I think it was exactly as it seemed.

      First, she and Burnham were supposed to 'weaponize' this creature. What could shooting and slashing a tranquillized creature possible accomplish (other than waking it up)? It's not like there was a pest somewhere and they needed to find out how to exterminate them.

      Second, it had been established that phaser set on 'kill' and whatever the Klingons brought aboard the USS Glen couldn't even leave a mark on the creature.

      Third, as Burnham clearly stated, they knew nothing about this creature. Maybe it could trick sensors, maybe it could lower it's own metabolism. But even IF the gas had worked, the creature might have regained consciousness within seconds after dropping the forcefield.
    • originalspockoriginalspock Member Posts: 809 Arc User
      I don't like it
      valoreah wrote: »
      patrickngo wrote: »
      In science fiction, it's an exploration of the possible, whether it's possible worlds, possible societies or possible technologies, to be Science fiction[/b] it needs a scientifically plausible (at least at the time of writing/production) basis. Quantum entanglement is theoretically supported, Alcubierre-White is also theoretically supported, Warp drive is 'we're not there yet' level of a scientifically plausible concept that offers the potential for faster than light travel thanks to the theoretical support.

      I find it very interesting that some things require "hard science" for you, yet others - such as alien life of which we have absolute zero evidence of at this point - requires nothing.

      Alcubierre drives might be "plausible" to the layman, however there are a great many physicists who would beg to differ. It just depends on who you ask. Personally, I seriously doubt humans will ever be able to generate the levels of energy required for such a thing in real life, even if we were to somehow miraculously overcome some of the other issues with it. Read some genuine scientific papers on the subject and you'll find it more and more unlikely to ever happen.



      A great many physicists wouldn't beg to differ. Because progress is made on projects like the Alcubierre drive, you haven't paid attention to it's development, but I have. It's gone from impossible as a concept, to possible through a mathematical process, the energy is the limiting factor in the equation. The N factor is exotic energy to power it. We already have theoretical concepts of exotic energy, aka dark energy. There is also special equipment being designed to pick up the existence of exotic energy that is making progress in it's infancy that is able to detect it's existence. Special Relativity absolutely says space can be warped. In order to contract and expand space you need negative energy. Quantum mechanics says negative energy exists. That's real science. Warp drives are only science fiction because they don't yet exist, not even tapping into fusion reactors who could facilitate in creation of negative energy. To even compare Mycelial networks to a Warp drive on the scientific level is like comparing a child's fake butterknife to a surgeons scalpel. If you don't know the complexity & or practicality level difference you're arguing out of your education level.
    • mhall85mhall85 Member Posts: 2,852 Arc User1
      I Like it
      Some interesting comments from TrekMovie's NYCC coverage... as they pertain to this episode... do people really have a big problem with site-to-site transporter use?

      It's used a bunch in this episode, and I've got to be honest, I could care less about the "controversy." It's a plot device used by later Trek writers, and probably not thought of by the original writers. Further, later Trek has projected back into the TOS-era in many other instances (deflector dishes instead of sensor dishes, for example). They appear in "Trials and Tribble-ations", "In A Mirror, Darkly", and in the fan production Star Trek Continues... there are certain nuances, references, mindsets, and plot devices that are very TNG-era. IMO, if we accept those, then site-to-site transporters are just as usable.
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    • mhall85mhall85 Member Posts: 2,852 Arc User1
      I Like it
      artan42 wrote: »
      Did anybody catch what weapons the Discovery had? They were blue but where they pulses or beams?

      I'm pretty sure they were the same phaser effects that were used on the Shenzhou. IIRC, we only see the attack from the perspective of Discovery's viewscreen....
      I love this series. It's not perfect but it's sure stronger to start than any of the others were. I just hope we'll drop the frantic pace for an episode or two to get to know the characters a bit better.​​

      I agree, but this also might be because of the way this story arc is playing out. None of the character deaths have affected me or moved me. I'm really starting to think that, if they broke up and starched out the two-hour pilot story to play as flashbacks, some of the other characters might've grown on me more.

      Still, there's a definite core of characters being developed (I count five so far), and that could lead to bigger stakes later in the season.
      d87926bd02aaa4eb12e2bb0fbc1f7061.jpg
    • eazzieeazzie Member Posts: 3,980 Arc User
      edited October 2017
      Other (Post your thoughts)
      I am tending to agree with the theory (as claimed by others) that Discovery is actually the story of Section 31. USS 1031. Black badges. Only a theory but a lot of it does make credible sense.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoW8Sq8-hr4
    • alexraptorralexraptorr Member Posts: 1,192 Arc User
      I'm growing increasingly annoyed with the Klingon rework... its so bad, not just the makeup but their behavior as well. Where is the passion and fire that Klingons since TOS have had? Even their body language is as numb as their facial expressions. >.<
      "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
    • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
      eazzie wrote: »
      I am tending to agree with the theory (as claimed by others) that Discovery is actually the story of Section 31. USS 1031. Black badges. Only a theory but a lot of it does make credible sense.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoW8Sq8-hr4

      More like the Flagship of Section 31. The whole premise about Section 31 is that it part of the Federation charter and has existed since the Federation was created.
    • originalspockoriginalspock Member Posts: 809 Arc User
      I don't like it
      eazzie wrote: »
      I am tending to agree with the theory (as claimed by others) that Discovery is actually the story of Section 31. USS 1031. Black badges. Only a theory but a lot of it does make credible sense.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoW8Sq8-hr4

      Taking the video into context I had somewhat of a deep reflective thought in regards to TRIBBLE. Could this possible Section 31 series be responsible for turning Klingon's into the next Gen's Klingons with some sort of virus? Could all of their technology be all unique stuff that will either A) never be seen in history again B) wrapped up and quietly utilized by Section 31 throughout history? And Finally could they have stolen tech from the Kelvin timeline and that's how their ship looks like it does?
    • hawku001xhawku001x Member Posts: 10,758 Arc User
      edited October 2017
      My takeaway from this episode: Captain Ransom gets it.
      Post edited by hawku001x on
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