It's also significant to note that, as part of IDW's series of official tie in comics for the Kelvin timeline movies, the third issue of Star Trek: Nero(which explains what Nero was doing all those years between when he first arrived in the Kelvin timeline, and when the bulk of the movie's event take place), V'ger ends up detecting, and reactivating, the Narada, sensing a similar presence to itself within the ship, due to the ships intelligence stemming from its Borg technology.
When Nero finally gets back to the Narada, the Narada takes Nero to V'ger, who absorbs Nero in an attempt to understand emotions. While merged with V'ger, Nero sees its entire history, and it's confirmed that the Borg, the Narada, and V'ger(the current V'ger), all stem from the same ancient unknown civilization.
While it doesn't say the Borg created V'ger, or vice versa, it is canon, at least within the Kelvin timeline, that the Borg and V'ger both come from the same species' technology.
This is not canon. This is writers taking several loose threads, tying them together, and being fortunate enough to get paid by an official source for doing so. If someone was to write that as a fanfic, they'd be so ridiculed for the contrivances, they'd need a Nukara-rated environmental suit
On the ropic of Gene, V'ger and the Borg:
When TMP was written, there was no concept of the Borg. It's that simple. I believe, someone posed the question to Gene, or some exec after the Borg were debuted in TNG, "Could the Borg homeworld have been where V'ger went?" And given a "Sure, why not..." answer. A bit like, when asked how the Heisenberg Compensator worked, the reply was "Very well..."
Officially, no. Behind the scenes, maybe (until a new/better idea comes along )
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Paramount has said otherwise in regards to Countdown, Nero, Countdown to Darkness, and Khan.
Semantics and marketing hype For them to say that These comics are absolutely 100% canon, but Those novels, games, comics etc, which have been released in the past 40 years isn't is a BS standard if ever there was one
Also doesn't change the other aspect of my comment, that such writing is hackneyed convolution, making a connection, and being fortunate enough to have it sanctioned and 'sworn in' by the IP holders. Like I said, a fanfic writer presenting such a story, would be laughed at.
The very existence of those tie-in comics, was just that JJ demanded a multi-media marketing campain, not just telling the story within the confines of a movie
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
This is true of the prime universe, but the Paramount controlled IDW published comics for the Kelvin timeline, such as countdown, Nero, Countdown to Darkness, and Khan, are treated as canon for those movies, and were made, advertised, and sold, as the official tie ins for those movies.
Yes offical. Not canon. Paramount is not the one in the position to make things canon. They found that out when Abrams wanted to make the KT a reboot and keep his material as the only licenced material only to be told CBS has the final say not Paramount. No comics, books, or games are canon as per CBS' policy.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Semantics and marketing hype For them to say that These comics are absolutely 100% canon, but Those novels, games, comics etc, which have been released in the past 40 years isn't is a BS standard if ever there was one
A. I don't think you understand what the word semantics actually means, because that doesn't qualify.
B. Those other books, and comics, for the prime universe, were never really controlled by CBS, and constantly contradict each other. On the other hand, Paramount has had total control over the third party material for the Kelvin universe since day 1, and has effectively restricted it to only IDW, allowing them to create a singular extended universe that is consistent with itself from start to finish.
So yeah, it makes sense that a totally different situation, for a whole other timeline, would end up differently. It's canon, for the Kelvin timeline at least, as I mentioned. Prime Universe is another matter entirely.
A. Essentially: Word salad, and the pedantic nit-picking over the definitions of the words in said salad.
Or more formally: In linguistics, semantics is the subfield that is devoted to the study of meaning, as inherent at the levels of words, phrases, sentences, and larger units of discourse (termed texts, or narratives). The study of semantics is also closely linked to the subjects of representation, reference and denotation.
So yes, I do understand what semantics means
"Paramount has said otherwise." Yes, because they want to make money off rubesfans, who accept whatever They say, just because They say it "These comics are canon..." "This series is set in the Prime Universe..." Oh, okay, if you guys same so, must be legit. Shut up and take my money!
B. What they do or don't contradict, isn't the point. What CBS had control over, also, not the point. The Trek books put out, were officially licenced, not self-published fanfic, correct?
So saying that some of those are more official than some of the others, is a BS standard to apply.
Not as in by you, but by Them. It's BS that they're willing to give credibility to the JJ Tie-ins (all part of JJ's deal) but not the previously published stuff. Now I'm not trying to say that the new DS9/Titan/SuperDax books are any better in terms of the material, I'm just saying that to not consider any of those official, but to consider the JJ tie-ins official, just doesn't sit well with me, and nothing more than a way of making a few extra bucks through associate sales.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
JJ also had nothing to do with the comics, so trying to put the blame on him doesn't really work.
JJ insisted on multi-media marketing for 09 and Into Darkness. He initially wanted all previous merch pulled, so as to not cause confusion or brand-dilution (of his new version of Trek) So while he may not have sat down with the writers (and I'll be he was consulted... The man deserved to be credited as co-writer of the Force Awakens, yet declined the credit) I bet that there is a paper trail leading from each comic sale, to an increase in one of his bank accounts
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Whats funny is that JJ may end up getting his wish in the end.
See, the reason why we have this large meta-verse for the prime universe novels right now is because, many years ago, CBS basically told all the novel authors to get their **** together, and start following screen canon, and that they couldn't make up anything that defied screen canon as they had been doing for YEARS at that point.
The problem is that, while CBS has authority over the Prime Universe stuff, stuff from the 2009 Trek movie, such as the destruction of Romulus by the Hobus Supernova, belong to Paramount and Bad Robot, who haven't signed a deal with Pocket Books, the company that does most of the novels.
This means that the novelverse can't use or mention the supernova, and the subsequent destruction of Romulus, because Paramount/Bad Robot wont let them, but, because of CBS's own rules on having to follow screen canon, they are legally unable to ignore it either.
This means that when the novel verse hits the hobus supernova event(which its only like 1-2 years away from), it will efficiently dead end in a catch 22 situation unless they can get Bad Robot and Paramount to let them use it, which, as far as I am aware, they still haven't.
The novel verse is on a crash course for its own ending pretty soon.
Nah, they'll start doing 'The Missing Years' kind of stuff set in between the existing episodes Or, Pocket Books will re-negotiate with Bad Robot and Paramount. There's nothing to say that the deal they have now, is the absolutely Only deal they can have (well, unless there are indeed contractual limits to producing X number of books for X number of years etc etc) so it wouldn't surprize me if they were able to renegotiate in some way
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
So saying that some of those are more official than some of the others, is a BS standard to apply.
Not as in by you, but by Them. It's BS that they're willing to give credibility to the JJ Tie-ins (all part of JJ's deal) but not the previously published stuff. Now I'm not trying to say that the new DS9/Titan/SuperDax books are any better in terms of the material, I'm just saying that to not consider any of those official, but to consider the JJ tie-ins official, just doesn't sit well with me, and nothing more than a way of making a few extra bucks through associate sales.
No it really isn't. Its how most extended series work actually. The license owners get to pick and chose what is and isn't canon, as is their legal right.
Yes, they get to pick and choose, and yes, they have the legal right to do so. But that doesn't make it any less favoritistic and a BS double-standard.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
People speak of technological progress as if it were linear. The Iconians dominated the galaxy for hundreds of thousands of years, so their technological development must have been steadily increasing all that time...
But technological progress is not linear in our experience. It jumps and starts, and withers, and stagnates. In times of stress technology increases in leaps and bounds, but in times of peace and prosperity technological improvements are are less common and treated with suspicion. And sometimes technological development collapses and hundreds of years of advance is wiped out.
Two examples:
For almost two thousand years China was one of the most stable and prosperous nations on Earth. It missed out on the Fall Of Rome and the bubonic plague, and yet it stagnated technologically for most of that time, never building on the initial progress that lead to its Empire.
When the barbarians sacked Rome, a city of over a million dwindled to less than 30,000 because the technology to maintain the water supply was compromised, and was not recovered until the advent of the Age of Discovery a thousand years later.
If technological progress was linear, those nations would have ruled the Earth. Instead, both were succeeded by the children of people who were living in mud huts when their empires were at their height.
The fact that the Iconians were defeated by their inferiors indicates to me that their supposed technological supremacy was not as great as it was said to be. Imagine what would happen when 1800's style cavalry charges a tank.
Yes offical. Not canon. Paramount is not the one in the position to make things canon. They found that out when Abrams wanted to make the KT a reboot and keep his material as the only licenced material only to be told CBS has the final say not Paramount. No comics, books, or games are canon as per CBS' policy.
CBS has no canon policy, they deleted their page on what is canon some time ago.
And Paramount is in every position to make things canon, so long as it involves the Kelvin verse. Same reason Cryptic had to ask Paramount, not CBS, for permission to have a Kelvin timeline missions/ships in the game.
CBS still maintains it's canon policy, pulling the page has not issued a retraction, not has it offered a replacement, only those two things changes any policy. And no, Paramount is producing films under licence from CBS, that's it. CBS owns the IP and has final say over any material produced by any licence holder, whether it's Paramount, Cryptic, Eaglemoss or whomever.
Paramount, Abrams, or Bad Robot studios can say whatever they like is canon, but CBS' policy overrules them and they've already had their merchandising exclusivity shot down as an example of that. No books, comics, or games are canon. That stands until CBS brings out a new policy (which I suspect might happen with DSC if CBS want to try a multimedia approach) which they have not yet done.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
STOP with the CANON BS already. Who cares? Desilu, Paramount, CBS/Viacom, UPN, CBS/Paramount, CBS All-Acess, fake divorces. Writers writing whatever that the canonheads then need to do somersaults to explain/justify. Doing whatever they need to, to make peace with their internal 'Weltanschauung'. Play the game already.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
STOP with the CANON BS already. Who cares? Desilu, Paramount, CBS/Viacom, UPN, CBS/Paramount, CBS All-Acess, fake divorces. Writers writing whatever that the canonheads then need to do somersaults to explain/justify. Doing whatever they need to, to make peace with their internal 'Weltanschauung'. Play the game already.
Point on the doll where the bad canon touched you...
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
STOP with the CANON BS already. Who cares? Desilu, Paramount, CBS/Viacom, UPN, CBS/Paramount, CBS All-Acess, fake divorces. Writers writing whatever that the canonheads then need to do somersaults to explain/justify. Doing whatever they need to, to make peace with their internal 'Weltanschauung'. Play the game already.
...As for the whole canon vs. non-canon thing, I'm getting sick of hearing it. I personally don't believe Star Trek is realistic in any way conceivable (especially the newer stuff, which is more like run of the mill sci-fantasy), so I don't really care anymore. This vintage nerd mentality needs to die out...
Since when does canon equal realistic? It really doesn't need to die out. It needs to stick around exactly for the reason you post: (especially the newer stuff, which is more like run of the mill sci-fantasy). We nerds agree with you on that point and it's not good. They're creating movie content for the BAM! POW! effect with little to no effort to remain within the boundaries of what's been created before it. When the song they used to disrupt the enemy ships in Into Darkness was the Beastie Boys, I thought...couldn't it have been Kingon Opera instead? But no, they catered to the masses and went with something everyone could shake their fists and and go "woof woof woof!" Quite honestly, this is annoying for anyone who really likes Trek because...it's Trek. As for STO being canon or not, it's really not. They're making stuff up as they go along...especially many of the ships they've created. It is what it is. I like the game overall and will continue to play it. It may get to a point where I don't recognize Trek in it anymore and at that point I'll have to ask myself if it's something I care to partake in.
My question to you is...why do you want to play Star Trek Online in the first place if you're indifferent to the fact that every time they come out with something...it departs from Star Trek? Pretty soon you'll be able to change the name of the game to Star Ships Online. And hey...who cares?!
I was there, the day Iconia was bombarded. There were at least millions of them. They were taken by surprise, and killed en masse, because their technology, while highly advanced, wasn't truly magical - they couldn't foresee the future, nor project force in places where they weren't (which is why they even had servitor races). The Organians have a much greater claim on being "space magic" than the Iconians, who merely have highly advanced weapons and interstellar (and, it is hinted, intergalactic) teleportation portals.
Really, tilarta, you should give up this idea that just because a race resembles someone's idea of something in fantasy, it must be "space magic". It's far too limiting, and seems to be inhibiting your enjoyment. Either that, or claim that TOS started it because the Tellarites look like a hairier version of a Tolkien dwarf (oh, and the actual would-be "space witches" in TOS: "Catspaw").
Comments
On the ropic of Gene, V'ger and the Borg:
When TMP was written, there was no concept of the Borg. It's that simple. I believe, someone posed the question to Gene, or some exec after the Borg were debuted in TNG, "Could the Borg homeworld have been where V'ger went?" And given a "Sure, why not..." answer. A bit like, when asked how the Heisenberg Compensator worked, the reply was "Very well..."
Officially, no. Behind the scenes, maybe (until a new/better idea comes along
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Borg are just dumpster divers, they probably copied V'ger's ship specs from some database they assimilated.
I got my Attack Pattern "Don't give a fk" on, the damage will break all parses.
Also doesn't change the other aspect of my comment, that such writing is hackneyed convolution, making a connection, and being fortunate enough to have it sanctioned and 'sworn in' by the IP holders. Like I said, a fanfic writer presenting such a story, would be laughed at.
The very existence of those tie-in comics, was just that JJ demanded a multi-media marketing campain, not just telling the story within the confines of a movie
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Yes offical. Not canon. Paramount is not the one in the position to make things canon. They found that out when Abrams wanted to make the KT a reboot and keep his material as the only licenced material only to be told CBS has the final say not Paramount. No comics, books, or games are canon as per CBS' policy.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Or more formally: In linguistics, semantics is the subfield that is devoted to the study of meaning, as inherent at the levels of words, phrases, sentences, and larger units of discourse (termed texts, or narratives). The study of semantics is also closely linked to the subjects of representation, reference and denotation.
So yes, I do understand what semantics means
"Paramount has said otherwise." Yes, because they want to make money off rubesfans, who accept whatever They say, just because They say it
B. What they do or don't contradict, isn't the point. What CBS had control over, also, not the point. The Trek books put out, were officially licenced, not self-published fanfic, correct?
So saying that some of those are more official than some of the others, is a BS standard to apply.
Not as in by you, but by Them. It's BS that they're willing to give credibility to the JJ Tie-ins (all part of JJ's deal) but not the previously published stuff. Now I'm not trying to say that the new DS9/Titan/SuperDax books are any better in terms of the material, I'm just saying that to not consider any of those official, but to consider the JJ tie-ins official, just doesn't sit well with me, and nothing more than a way of making a few extra bucks through associate sales.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
JJ insisted on multi-media marketing for 09 and Into Darkness. He initially wanted all previous merch pulled, so as to not cause confusion or brand-dilution (of his new version of Trek) So while he may not have sat down with the writers (and I'll be he was consulted... The man deserved to be credited as co-writer of the Force Awakens, yet declined the credit) I bet that there is a paper trail leading from each comic sale, to an increase in one of his bank accounts
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
But technological progress is not linear in our experience. It jumps and starts, and withers, and stagnates. In times of stress technology increases in leaps and bounds, but in times of peace and prosperity technological improvements are are less common and treated with suspicion. And sometimes technological development collapses and hundreds of years of advance is wiped out.
Two examples:
For almost two thousand years China was one of the most stable and prosperous nations on Earth. It missed out on the Fall Of Rome and the bubonic plague, and yet it stagnated technologically for most of that time, never building on the initial progress that lead to its Empire.
When the barbarians sacked Rome, a city of over a million dwindled to less than 30,000 because the technology to maintain the water supply was compromised, and was not recovered until the advent of the Age of Discovery a thousand years later.
If technological progress was linear, those nations would have ruled the Earth. Instead, both were succeeded by the children of people who were living in mud huts when their empires were at their height.
The fact that the Iconians were defeated by their inferiors indicates to me that their supposed technological supremacy was not as great as it was said to be. Imagine what would happen when 1800's style cavalry charges a tank.
STO is only canon for STO
CBS still maintains it's canon policy, pulling the page has not issued a retraction, not has it offered a replacement, only those two things changes any policy. And no, Paramount is producing films under licence from CBS, that's it. CBS owns the IP and has final say over any material produced by any licence holder, whether it's Paramount, Cryptic, Eaglemoss or whomever.
Paramount, Abrams, or Bad Robot studios can say whatever they like is canon, but CBS' policy overrules them and they've already had their merchandising exclusivity shot down as an example of that. No books, comics, or games are canon. That stands until CBS brings out a new policy (which I suspect might happen with DSC if CBS want to try a multimedia approach) which they have not yet done.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Point on the doll where the bad canon touched you...
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Canonheads, LOL, now all they need is a moshpit.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Since when does canon equal realistic? It really doesn't need to die out. It needs to stick around exactly for the reason you post: (especially the newer stuff, which is more like run of the mill sci-fantasy). We nerds agree with you on that point and it's not good. They're creating movie content for the BAM! POW! effect with little to no effort to remain within the boundaries of what's been created before it. When the song they used to disrupt the enemy ships in Into Darkness was the Beastie Boys, I thought...couldn't it have been Kingon Opera instead? But no, they catered to the masses and went with something everyone could shake their fists and and go "woof woof woof!" Quite honestly, this is annoying for anyone who really likes Trek because...it's Trek. As for STO being canon or not, it's really not. They're making stuff up as they go along...especially many of the ships they've created. It is what it is. I like the game overall and will continue to play it. It may get to a point where I don't recognize Trek in it anymore and at that point I'll have to ask myself if it's something I care to partake in.
My question to you is...why do you want to play Star Trek Online in the first place if you're indifferent to the fact that every time they come out with something...it departs from Star Trek? Pretty soon you'll be able to change the name of the game to Star Ships Online. And hey...who cares?!
Really, tilarta, you should give up this idea that just because a race resembles someone's idea of something in fantasy, it must be "space magic". It's far too limiting, and seems to be inhibiting your enjoyment. Either that, or claim that TOS started it because the Tellarites look like a hairier version of a Tolkien dwarf (oh, and the actual would-be "space witches" in TOS: "Catspaw").