Saavik and the Search For Spock (Jr.)

brian334 · August 2017

I've always been a fan of Kirstie Alley, (yes, I'm that old.) Her film debut was Wrath Of Khan where she played a (possibly) half Romulan Vulcan named Saavik.

She didn't take the job in Search For Spock, so Robin Curtis did. And fan theories and later books make a good case for Spock Jr. being conceived when Saavik helped not-quite-Spock through his first pon farr.

With all the past Trek actors taking the chance to cash in by voice acting for STO, the opportunity to get Kirstie/Saavik in the game arises. (Or Robin. It wouldn't be the first time she took a job Kirstie didn't want.)

My plot has the venerable half-Romulan seeking the player's aid in locating her son, (Spock Jr.!) who is doing a fair immitation of his dad's cowboy diplomacy by hareing off and vanishing. Where did he go? Is he still alive? Why hasn't he reported in? And more importantly, can the player insure the completion of his mission?

However, there are infinite other possibilities, and though the existence of an offspring of Spock is soft canon at best, it exists as established fact in some Trek books. So, it's canon enough for me!

Cryptic, get the ball rolling to bring Kirstie Alley back to Trek! (Or Robin Curtis.)

Episode Outline to be used with WoK era promotion:

Act 1: Saavik arrives to tell you her son is missing and you need to find him.
Act 2: Chase a cold trail of clues leading to his current location.
Act 3: Discover theft of protomatter from research facility and link it to Jr.
Act 4: Head to Genesis Planet to discover Jr. in the act of using protomatter and time travel to prevent his father's death.
Act 5: Learn that the body Spock's kotra inhabited was actually his son's, reversed to infancy via time travel mixed with protomatter, and thus mind wiped as his brain reverted to a state prior to its ability to form long term memories. And your character places baby Spock Jr. in the torpedo casing just before Saavik beams down.

And all is as it was: Jr. impregnates Saavik then fulfills his destiny as a vessel for Spock's kotra. Saavik doesn't have to like the news.

darakoss · August 2017

ummm.....no.

hellcat · August 2017

Wtf did I just read?

kodachikuno · August 2017

as stated.... pass

Bringing Saavik into Trek and a TWoK era mission? Hell yes

brian334 · August 2017

Not only was she Spock's apprentice, she was Kirk's last protege. Saavik may have dropped into obscurity after IV, becoming a modern Vulcan housewife, but I doubt it. Her small bit in the movies had to have launched a career.

I'd like to see her story.

dracounguis · August 2017

No time travel. 99% of the time it's used it's stupid and/or a lazy writer's crutch.

silverlobes · August 2017

darakoss wrote: »

ummm.....no.

^^^^
This...

kodachikuno wrote: »

as stated.... pass

Bringing Saavik into Trek and a TWoK era mission? Hell yes

^^^^
And this...

azrael605 wrote: »

Sorry but most fan theories, and the few novels to touch on the subject, have Spock raising Saavik as his child. [/b]Some theorize that she is the daughter of the Romulan commander from The Enterprise Incident & Spock, as the commander & Spock made clear they still had feelings for each other at the end of the episode. So for most the idea of Spock & Saavik having a child is pretty icky.[/b]

Now just getting Saavik in game in some way would be just fine.

I believe a deleted scene from Voyage Home, was supposed to have revealed that Saavik was pregnant with Spock's child (certainly adds poignancy to the shot where she and Amanda are watching the BoP departing Vulcan) But Saavik and Spock were intimate on Genesis, because she had to 'defuse the bomb' and assist him through his accelerated Pon Farr cycle. Whatever fan theories were generated after that, well, I prefer to go with the notion that 'assisting Spock with his needs' was the logical thing for Saavik to do, so her actions were one of logic, not personal desire

It would be great to see Saavik appear in-game, voiced by either Kirsty or Robin, just not the OP-proposed story

mirrorchaos · August 2017

For a Vulcan Saavik was not like most Vulcans, she was a little different, her emotions were closer to the surface but they didn't control her, it made her easier for the rest of the human crew to interact with her and her in return, she even shared some of the same drives as well, like persistence in asking where she went wrong in her Kobayashi Maru test.

i would love to see her return to trek in some capacity and unfortunately the only way that will happen is through time travel, sorry @dracounguis but time travel is very much involved with Star Trek.

silverlobes · August 2017

mirrorchaos wrote: »

For a Vulcan Saavik was not like most Vulcans, she was a little different, her emotions were closer to the surface but they didn't control her, it made her easier for the rest of the human crew to interact with her and her in return, she even shared some of the same drives as well, like persistence in asking where she went wrong in her Kobayashi Maru test.

i would love to see her return to trek in some capacity and unfortunately the only way that will happen is through time travel, sorry @dracounguis but time travel is very much involved with Star Trek.

With her Vulcan lifespan, she could still be alive (afterall, she was a few decades younger than Spock, and Spock was still active enough to try and tackle the Hobus supernova) but she would definitely be into her Senior Years, so maybe not super-plausible to have her as a serving Starfleet officer, but perhaps a diplomatic role to do with New Romulus?

mirrorchaos · August 2017

silverlobes#2676 wrote: »

mirrorchaos wrote: »

For a Vulcan Saavik was not like most Vulcans, she was a little different, her emotions were closer to the surface but they didn't control her, it made her easier for the rest of the human crew to interact with her and her in return, she even shared some of the same drives as well, like persistence in asking where she went wrong in her Kobayashi Maru test.

i would love to see her return to trek in some capacity and unfortunately the only way that will happen is through time travel, sorry @dracounguis but time travel is very much involved with Star Trek.

With her Vulcan lifespan, she could still be alive (afterall, she was a few decades younger than Spock, and Spock was still active enough to try and tackle the Hobus supernova) but she would definitely be into her Senior Years, so maybe not super-plausible to have her as a serving Starfleet officer, but perhaps a diplomatic role to do with New Romulus?

Indeed i took her lifespan into account, sorry if i wasn't clear on that.

She looked much younger, it may have entirely been possible Saavik could of been in her 20's heading towards her 30's during that mission? Which could put her around 150 years old in Vulcan years during the events of 2410. But it is hard to work out female Vulcan's from outward appearances though, T'pol was in her 60's when she joined Enterprise and yet she looked in her early 30's. Then there is Selar, T'pau, Valeris and others that look young but could be much older.

if it's suggested putting Saavik's age at 60 years during the events on the Enterprise-A? she would be right at the end of the Vulcan lifespan if not already dead from natural causes by 2410. it would be difficult to pin down exactly how old she really is without an exact age from when she was on the Enterprise-A.

jonsills · August 2017

mirrorchaos wrote: »

For a Vulcan Saavik was not like most Vulcans, she was a little different, her emotions were closer to the surface but they didn't control her, it made her easier for the rest of the human crew to interact with her and her in return, she even shared some of the same drives as well, like persistence in asking where she went wrong in her Kobayashi Maru test.

According to the novelization, she was supposed to have been the child of a Romulan and a Vulcan prisoner, growing up abandoned on a failing colony world called Hellguard (from which she was rescued by Spock, who became the closest thing she'd had to a parental figure). The novel also included some cool (and obviously non-canon, as they weren't filmed) scenes; for instance, she was fond of young Peter Preston, and when she received word he'd been killed she calmly excused herself, went into a nearby conference room, locked the door - and then ripped one of the chairs loose from the floor and threw it across the room, screaming in rage.

In-game she would be quite advanced in age, although her continued existence wouldn't be that improbable given Vulcan lifespans. Can't think of any sane reason for a story to revolve around an aged Vulcan who wasn't really a central character, though, and I really wouldn't want her shoehorned in just to take advantage of Kirstie's possible availability.

silverlobes · August 2017

mirrorchaos wrote: »

silverlobes#2676 wrote: »

mirrorchaos wrote: »

For a Vulcan Saavik was not like most Vulcans, she was a little different, her emotions were closer to the surface but they didn't control her, it made her easier for the rest of the human crew to interact with her and her in return, she even shared some of the same drives as well, like persistence in asking where she went wrong in her Kobayashi Maru test.

i would love to see her return to trek in some capacity and unfortunately the only way that will happen is through time travel, sorry @dracounguis but time travel is very much involved with Star Trek.

With her Vulcan lifespan, she could still be alive (afterall, she was a few decades younger than Spock, and Spock was still active enough to try and tackle the Hobus supernova) but she would definitely be into her Senior Years, so maybe not super-plausible to have her as a serving Starfleet officer, but perhaps a diplomatic role to do with New Romulus?

Indeed i took her lifespan into account, sorry if i wasn't clear on that.

She looked much younger, it may have entirely been possible Saavik could of been in her 20's heading towards her 30's during that mission? Which could put her around 150 years old in Vulcan years during the events of 2410. But it is hard to work out female Vulcan's from outward appearances though, T'pol was in her 60's when she joined Enterprise and yet she looked in her early 30's. Then there is Selar, T'pau, Valeris and others that look young but could be much older.

if it's suggested putting Saavik's age at 60 years during the events on the Enterprise-A? she would be right at the end of the Vulcan lifespan if not already dead from natural causes by 2410. it would be difficult to pin down exactly how old she really is without an exact age from when she was on the Enterprise-A.

Ah, yes, you're quite right, she could indeed have been older than her appearance suggested. I guess the question is how old she was during WoK/SfS

silverlobes · August 2017

azrael605 wrote: »

@silverlobes#2676

Over the course of the script writing/revision process for STII, III, IV, & VI Saavik had a child with David Marcus, James Kirk, & Spock. All of these ideas were rejected for a lot of good reasons & none should be given any weight.

I hadn't heard those rumors

From what I've heard, this was a scene which was at least filmed and edited out

mirrorchaos · August 2017

jonsills wrote: »

mirrorchaos wrote: »

For a Vulcan Saavik was not like most Vulcans, she was a little different, her emotions were closer to the surface but they didn't control her, it made her easier for the rest of the human crew to interact with her and her in return, she even shared some of the same drives as well, like persistence in asking where she went wrong in her Kobayashi Maru test.

According to the novelization, she was supposed to have been the child of a Romulan and a Vulcan prisoner, growing up abandoned on a failing colony world called Hellguard (from which she was rescued by Spock, who became the closest thing she'd had to a parental figure). The novel also included some cool (and obviously non-canon, as they weren't filmed) scenes; for instance, she was fond of young Peter Preston, and when she received word he'd been killed she calmly excused herself, went into a nearby conference room, locked the door - and then ripped one of the chairs loose from the floor and threw it across the room, screaming in rage.

In-game she would be quite advanced in age, although her continued existence wouldn't be that improbable given Vulcan lifespans. Can't think of any sane reason for a story to revolve around an aged Vulcan who wasn't really a central character, though, and I really wouldn't want her shoehorned in just to take advantage of Kirstie's possible availability.

Thats an interesting point if she were part Romulan, it would explain her emotions being a little more free, thanks @Jonsillis. But i am also just as concerned regarding having Saavik shoehorned into the game at her advanced years, which is why i suggested time travel. She could be a temporal agent and appear much younger than she should of otherwise been, that could help make her a major character going forward and being besides you in the fight.

brian334 · August 2017

No script is final until it's released. There is nothing in canon to say that Spock has a child with anyone. But it's hard to disprove in canon, and there are fans who want to see Trek go forward from Nemesis. And what is Star Trek if it doesn't have a member of Spock's family in it?

silverlobes · August 2017

brian334 wrote: »

No script is final until it's released. There is nothing in canon to say that Spock has a child with anyone. But it's hard to disprove in canon, and there are fans who want to see Trek go forward from Nemesis. And what is Star Trek if it doesn't have a member of Spock's family in it?

This is true. Although from what I remember hearing, this was a scene which was actually filmed, and then removed in editing. I agree and accept; If it's not in the final film, it's not canon. But I would suggest that the content of a filmed-but-not-included scene, be afforded higher credence over considered but rejected script recisions, which don't even get filmed at all

silverlobes · August 2017

From the horse'sVulcan's mouth...

https://trekmovie.com/2012/01/05/robin-curtis-on-spock-love-child-romulan-saavik/

silverlobes · August 2017

azrael605 wrote: »

No disrespect to Robin but she was never involved in creating the story of the films, and had no input into the script. In fact had they decided to make Saavik the traitor in TUC as originally planned they were going to rehire Kirstie as the studio wasn't happy with Curtis.

True, she may have had no input, but there's an interview linked to the article I linked, which goes into a bit more depth, where she says that she literally played the part exactly how Leonard Nimoy wanted her to play the part, even to the point of micromanaging her breathing, to give a line delivery he wanted. So while she had no inout, she certainly knows what she was told, and what was asked of her

I hadn't heard that about TUC, or that they weren't happy with Robin (personally, she's 'my' Saavik, because althouth Kirstie played her first, Robin played her twice. Seniority by 'time in role, I guess) I know that originally, Meyer wanted Kim Cattrall for the role of Saavik in WoK, but she wasn't available due to a scheduling conflict, so they went with Kirstie Alley. I've also read, that Meyer wanted Saavik to be the traitor in TUC, but Gene vetoed it, even going so far as to say that while Saavik was Meyer's character, he [Gene] was the one with the final say on how that character evolved, and he refused to allow her to be the traitor. So the character of Valeris was created, cast with Kim Cattrall, and she named the character, after Eris. Funny how things worked out in the end

silverlobes · August 2017

azrael605 wrote: »

Most of the newer information, about them wanting to rehire Kirstie and such, is from I am Spock & The View from the Bridge. According to these sources there were other factors involved in making the switch from Saavik to Valeris than just Gene (& the cast's) disaproval. These included the studio heads disappointment in Curtis, the rather high cost of Alley (she would have cost more than Kelley for TSFS) which had only gone up in the years since, and the decision not to recast Saavik a second time.

Ahh, interesting indeed

I'll track those documentaries down

kodachikuno · August 2017

Im rather glad they nixed the idea of saavik as a traitor

silverlobes · August 2017

kodachikuno wrote: »

Im rather glad they nixed the idea of saavik as a traitor

I don't know... I can see why they didn't go with the idea (Gene's 'no internal conflict' rule) But looking back, I actually think it could have been a missed opportunity to have a more nuanced story, and I think, the revelation of Saavik, a known, familiar, character, as the culprit, would have has more impact to the audience, than a freshly shoehorned-in Mary-sue.

That then moves onto the notion of 'what is a traitor?'. Well, simply put, someone who goes against the group ideology is a traitor. It doesn't even matter which side is 'right' or 'wrong', because what really matters, and where things get interesting, is why does someone become a traitor? Admiral Leyton, for example, was trying to protect the Federation from itself, and against the threat of the Dominion. In his view, he was a patriot.

The Maquis were viewed by Starfleet and the Federation as traitors for suceeding from the Federation. But why did they do so? To protect their homes and families.

Why was there a plan to ignite a war with the Klingons? Because the Empire was on its knees after the Praxis explosion, and thus more easy to break through a drawn-out war when the Empire was strong. What was Valeris' motivation for joining that conspiracy? I don't think we even find out onscreen

Kirk had his reasons for hating the Klingons: They killed his son. Equally, David's death could equally have impacted upon Saavik, and colored her views towards the Klingons. It would have been a shock, but it could have been reasonably explained. But Valeris? She was just the accolyte Spock made drinks for, who had answers for everything, and was telling officer with decades more experience than her, how to do things. Her being exposed, was a (for me) 'Never liked her anyway, hope she enjoys the dilithium mine...' moment

brian334 · August 2017

While I agree that Saavik as traitor would have added depth to TUC, I think it would have been a mischaracterization.

Saavik ripping out a chair and hurling it against a wall is believable. (Or pretty much any action which was an immediate response to stimuli.) But she was not portrayed as the kind of plotting, scheeming, backstabbing character Eddington was. I think that, crisis over with time to think about it, Saavik would rather forgive than seek vengeance. Otherwise, Spock would never have gotten her away from all the people who deserved killing back on her home planet. Or even if forgiveness is beyond her capability because the crime was too heinous, she would put it behind her rather than nurse her hate long enough to join a rebellion which could never help her achieve revenge against specific targets of her hate, who were all dead anyway.

So, immediate response to issue, hell yes Saavik would go off the chain.

Meet the object of her hate years later, okay, she might go off.

Seek a war against millions who had nothing to do with her or her loved ones? Not in character.

Kirk didn't hate Klingons just because they killed his son; that was simply the last and most intense straw. Kirk hated Klingons because he spent the better part of his life fighting them. He understood them only as an implacable foe who would never abide by any agreement the moment it was to their advantage to break it. Of course his son was at the top of the list of reasons, but if it had been his only reasons he might well have hated Reverend Jim specifically rather than all Klingons generally. After all, everyone involved in killing David were themselves killed by Kirk How much revenge does a guy need?

kekvin · August 2017

> @brian334 said:
> No script is final until it's released. There is nothing in canon to say that Spock has a child with anyone. But it's hard to disprove in canon, and there are fans who want to see Trek go forward from Nemesis. And what is Star Trek if it doesn't have a member of Spock's family in it?

Picard states he went to spocks wedding in an episode of tng when he was a LT. Always liked the idea of him marrying Saavik

mirrorchaos · August 2017

brian334 wrote: »

While I agree that Saavik as traitor would have added depth to TUC, I think it would have been a mischaracterization.

Saavik ripping out a chair and hurling it against a wall is believable. (Or pretty much any action which was an immediate response to stimuli.) But she was not portrayed as the kind of plotting, scheeming, backstabbing character Eddington was. I think that, crisis over with time to think about it, Saavik would rather forgive than seek vengeance. Otherwise, Spock would never have gotten her away from all the people who deserved killing back on her home planet. Or even if forgiveness is beyond her capability because the crime was too heinous, she would put it behind her rather than nurse her hate long enough to join a rebellion which could never help her achieve revenge against specific targets of her hate, who were all dead anyway.

So, immediate response to issue, hell yes Saavik would go off the chain.

Meet the object of her hate years later, okay, she might go off.

Seek a war against millions who had nothing to do with her or her loved ones? Not in character.

Kirk didn't hate Klingons just because they killed his son; that was simply the last and most intense straw. Kirk hated Klingons because he spent the better part of his life fighting them. He understood them only as an implacable foe who would never abide by any agreement the moment it was to their advantage to break it. Of course his son was at the top of the list of reasons, but if it had been his only reasons he might well have hated Reverend Jim specifically rather than all Klingons generally. After all, everyone involved in killing David were themselves killed by Kirk How much revenge does a guy need?

i agree with this. Saavik isn't the type of person i felt could be a traitor, she has so much going for her and the obvious question why would she throw away a promising career in Starfleet for and betray everyone she knows?

silverlobes · August 2017

brian334 wrote: »

While I agree that Saavik as traitor would have added depth to TUC, I think it would have been a mischaracterization.

Saavik ripping out a chair and hurling it against a wall is believable. (Or pretty much any action which was an immediate response to stimuli.) But she was not portrayed as the kind of plotting, scheeming, backstabbing character Eddington was. I think that, crisis over with time to think about it, Saavik would rather forgive than seek vengeance. Otherwise, Spock would never have gotten her away from all the people who deserved killing back on her home planet. Or even if forgiveness is beyond her capability because the crime was too heinous, she would put it behind her rather than nurse her hate long enough to join a rebellion which could never help her achieve revenge against specific targets of her hate, who were all dead anyway.

So, immediate response to issue, hell yes Saavik would go off the chain.

Meet the object of her hate years later, okay, she might go off.

Seek a war against millions who had nothing to do with her or her loved ones? Not in character.

Kirk didn't hate Klingons just because they killed his son; that was simply the last and most intense straw. Kirk hated Klingons because he spent the better part of his life fighting them. He understood them only as an implacable foe who would never abide by any agreement the moment it was to their advantage to break it. Of course his son was at the top of the list of reasons, but if it had been his only reasons he might well have hated Reverend Jim specifically rather than all Klingons generally. After all, everyone involved in killing David were themselves killed by Kirk How much revenge does a guy need?

It's not a case of personal vengeance, but of political ideology - My team over Their team - of breaking them Now (politically speaking) would give Us the upper-hand in all future dealings. The Genesis situation would have had profound affects of both Kirk and Saavik, afterall, she was actually present when David was killed. She knew that it could just as easily have been her (and I think it would have been) had David not turned to fight the Klingon. Vulcan or no, that's going to create thoughts. Valeris was clearly swayed by the logic of the situation, it's not only reasonable to conclude that that same logic may convince Saavik, but that she actually had a personal stake on the topic, would likely also (even if subconsciously) shape her decision.

silverlobes · August 2017

mirrorchaos wrote: »

brian334 wrote: »

While I agree that Saavik as traitor would have added depth to TUC, I think it would have been a mischaracterization.

Saavik ripping out a chair and hurling it against a wall is believable. (Or pretty much any action which was an immediate response to stimuli.) But she was not portrayed as the kind of plotting, scheeming, backstabbing character Eddington was. I think that, crisis over with time to think about it, Saavik would rather forgive than seek vengeance. Otherwise, Spock would never have gotten her away from all the people who deserved killing back on her home planet. Or even if forgiveness is beyond her capability because the crime was too heinous, she would put it behind her rather than nurse her hate long enough to join a rebellion which could never help her achieve revenge against specific targets of her hate, who were all dead anyway.

So, immediate response to issue, hell yes Saavik would go off the chain.

Meet the object of her hate years later, okay, she might go off.

Seek a war against millions who had nothing to do with her or her loved ones? Not in character.

Kirk didn't hate Klingons just because they killed his son; that was simply the last and most intense straw. Kirk hated Klingons because he spent the better part of his life fighting them. He understood them only as an implacable foe who would never abide by any agreement the moment it was to their advantage to break it. Of course his son was at the top of the list of reasons, but if it had been his only reasons he might well have hated Reverend Jim specifically rather than all Klingons generally. After all, everyone involved in killing David were themselves killed by Kirk How much revenge does a guy need?

i agree with this. Saavik isn't the type of person i felt could be a traitor, she has so much going for her and the obvious question why would she throw away a promising career in Starfleet for and betray everyone she knows?

Again, this touches on the question, What makes someone become a traitor? Bradley/Chelsea Manning, Edward Snowdon, both considered traitors by some, heros for truth and justice by others. Again, Admiral Leyton would have considered himself a patriot. Captain Benteen? Who knows, we weren't introduced to her enough to know why she went along with Leyton's orders, but she presumeably agreed with his orders, for reasons beyond getting the command of a Starship. By the same token, why would Valeris throw away a promising career? What was her motivation? Because we don't know her, we can't speculate. Saavik, is at least familiar enough that An Incident might make her think "Don't want to see this situation again..." Is the betrayal of one's shipmates, an equal counterbalance to the amount of people in the Federation who might have better lives with the Klingon Empire brought to heal? Do the needs of the few, outweigh the needs of the many?

I'd never given it any thought till it was mentioned upthread, but it just struch a chord, and made me think "As an idea, that actually could have worked, and been interesting..."

mirrorchaos · August 2017

silverlobes#2676 wrote: »

mirrorchaos wrote: »

brian334 wrote: »

While I agree that Saavik as traitor would have added depth to TUC, I think it would have been a mischaracterization.

Saavik ripping out a chair and hurling it against a wall is believable. (Or pretty much any action which was an immediate response to stimuli.) But she was not portrayed as the kind of plotting, scheeming, backstabbing character Eddington was. I think that, crisis over with time to think about it, Saavik would rather forgive than seek vengeance. Otherwise, Spock would never have gotten her away from all the people who deserved killing back on her home planet. Or even if forgiveness is beyond her capability because the crime was too heinous, she would put it behind her rather than nurse her hate long enough to join a rebellion which could never help her achieve revenge against specific targets of her hate, who were all dead anyway.

So, immediate response to issue, hell yes Saavik would go off the chain.

Meet the object of her hate years later, okay, she might go off.

Seek a war against millions who had nothing to do with her or her loved ones? Not in character.

Kirk didn't hate Klingons just because they killed his son; that was simply the last and most intense straw. Kirk hated Klingons because he spent the better part of his life fighting them. He understood them only as an implacable foe who would never abide by any agreement the moment it was to their advantage to break it. Of course his son was at the top of the list of reasons, but if it had been his only reasons he might well have hated Reverend Jim specifically rather than all Klingons generally. After all, everyone involved in killing David were themselves killed by Kirk How much revenge does a guy need?

i agree with this. Saavik isn't the type of person i felt could be a traitor, she has so much going for her and the obvious question why would she throw away a promising career in Starfleet for and betray everyone she knows?

Again, this touches on the question, What makes someone become a traitor? Bradley/Chelsea Manning, Edward Snowdon, both considered traitors by some, heros for truth and justice by others. Again, Admiral Leyton would have considered himself a patriot. Captain Benteen? Who knows, we weren't introduced to her enough to know why she went along with Leyton's orders, but she presumeably agreed with his orders, for reasons beyond getting the command of a Starship. By the same token, why would Valeris throw away a promising career? What was her motivation? Because we don't know her, we can't speculate. Saavik, is at least familiar enough that An Incident might make her think "Don't want to see this situation again..." Is the betrayal of one's shipmates, an equal counterbalance to the amount of people in the Federation who might have better lives with the Klingon Empire brought to heal? Do the needs of the few, outweigh the needs of the many?

I'd never given it any thought till it was mentioned upthread, but it just struch a chord, and made me think "As an idea, that actually could have worked, and been interesting..."

i like this comment @silverlobes#2676, very well put as well. one could imagine but not know for certain why someone else betrayed their own despite that some of the truth is known, there could of been other reasons.

I Think Benteen followed Leyton's orders because she is honor bound to follow her superior until the orders no longer made any sense with the mounting evidence that Leyton was using the founders as an excuse to rattle everyones cage, but did Leyton want ultimate power to betray the founding principles of the Federation and make himself a dictator?

Now that i think about it, there could be reasons Saavik could of betrayed her fellow starfleet officers.

silverlobes · August 2017

mirrorchaos wrote: »

silverlobes#2676 wrote: »

mirrorchaos wrote: »

brian334 wrote: »

While I agree that Saavik as traitor would have added depth to TUC, I think it would have been a mischaracterization.

Saavik ripping out a chair and hurling it against a wall is believable. (Or pretty much any action which was an immediate response to stimuli.) But she was not portrayed as the kind of plotting, scheeming, backstabbing character Eddington was. I think that, crisis over with time to think about it, Saavik would rather forgive than seek vengeance. Otherwise, Spock would never have gotten her away from all the people who deserved killing back on her home planet. Or even if forgiveness is beyond her capability because the crime was too heinous, she would put it behind her rather than nurse her hate long enough to join a rebellion which could never help her achieve revenge against specific targets of her hate, who were all dead anyway.

So, immediate response to issue, hell yes Saavik would go off the chain.

Meet the object of her hate years later, okay, she might go off.

Seek a war against millions who had nothing to do with her or her loved ones? Not in character.

Kirk didn't hate Klingons just because they killed his son; that was simply the last and most intense straw. Kirk hated Klingons because he spent the better part of his life fighting them. He understood them only as an implacable foe who would never abide by any agreement the moment it was to their advantage to break it. Of course his son was at the top of the list of reasons, but if it had been his only reasons he might well have hated Reverend Jim specifically rather than all Klingons generally. After all, everyone involved in killing David were themselves killed by Kirk How much revenge does a guy need?

i agree with this. Saavik isn't the type of person i felt could be a traitor, she has so much going for her and the obvious question why would she throw away a promising career in Starfleet for and betray everyone she knows?

Again, this touches on the question, What makes someone become a traitor? Bradley/Chelsea Manning, Edward Snowdon, both considered traitors by some, heros for truth and justice by others. Again, Admiral Leyton would have considered himself a patriot. Captain Benteen? Who knows, we weren't introduced to her enough to know why she went along with Leyton's orders, but she presumeably agreed with his orders, for reasons beyond getting the command of a Starship. By the same token, why would Valeris throw away a promising career? What was her motivation? Because we don't know her, we can't speculate. Saavik, is at least familiar enough that An Incident might make her think "Don't want to see this situation again..." Is the betrayal of one's shipmates, an equal counterbalance to the amount of people in the Federation who might have better lives with the Klingon Empire brought to heal? Do the needs of the few, outweigh the needs of the many?

I'd never given it any thought till it was mentioned upthread, but it just struch a chord, and made me think "As an idea, that actually could have worked, and been interesting..."

i like this comment @silverlobes#2676, very well put as well. one could imagine but not know for certain why someone else betrayed their own despite that some of the truth is known, there could of been other reasons.

I Think Benteen followed Leyton's orders because she is honor bound to follow her superior until the orders no longer made any sense with the mounting evidence that Leyton was using the founders as an excuse to rattle everyones cage, but did Leyton want ultimate power to betray the founding principles of the Federation and make himself a dictator?

Now that i think about it, there could be reasons Saavik could of betrayed her fellow starfleet officers.

Thank you

And of course, what one must consider, is that to the 'traitor', They see their cause as just. Especially if they have Personal Reasons, and especially if they are to look at the Really Big Picture, and think 'Yeah, they need bringing down a peg, it will make everyone in the Federation safer; I know these guys don't agree with me now, but they will do later, and they'll thank me for it.'

As a thought experiment, it just appealed to me

silverlobes · August 2017

coolbatman wrote: »

read the novelization of st:III, saavik and david marcus were intimate, butt saavik was skilled in bio-feedback techniques(presumibly a way of being in charge of the female cycle to prevent pregnacy) , anyway just read the novelization........

I'll keep an eye out for it

baddmoonrizin · August 2017

Since the conversation has deviated away from the topic of game inclusion, I'm moving this to Ten Forward.

Saavik and the Search For Spock (Jr.)

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