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Return of The Dominion: The Speculation Thread

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  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,481 Arc User
    Is that all this Thread is, a means to supposedly backing people into corners?

    Les Moonves or Jamran Harnoth or a combination?

    Being a speck does not necessarily mean First Federation Fleets could not devestate Dominion Fleets they encounter.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,481 Arc User
    Well since the Fesarius was the Flagship, that generally implies a Fleet behind it.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,395 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    reyan01 wrote: »
    brian334 wrote: »
    Perhaps there are other areas in which the Alliance proves superior to the Dominion.
    No. As per somtaawkhar, NOTHING stands a chance against the Dominion. I suspect, at this point, he'd even come up with an argument for why the Q would have trouble against them.
    brian334 wrote: »
    Now, since @somtaawkhar objects to its potential as The Disaster, I would like him/her to reverse engineer from that assumption a way that it could happen which accounts for his objections.
    I don't think he can. As well reasoned as they are, the majority of his posts have been to disprove ANY negative point or comment that doesn't support the idea that the Dominion is invincible/unstoppable.

    Not trying to be spiteful here either, but honestly - this Dominion worship has become a little tiresome..


    Agreed. The Dominion are far from invincible/unstoppable. Take that Tzenkethi, for instance, in the last story line mission: snapped that Jem' neck like a twig, did he!?

    The Dominion, as a whole, certainly have weak spots. Their depenence on Ketracel White, for one. Remember those Jem'Hadar marooned on that moon? Didn't work out well for them, did it?

    The Founders' home planet is very isolated, and not near any sun we could blow up or something. All true. But that's also their weakness: if even 1 single ship makes it out there, they can easily nuke the site from orbit, and they'd have no way to call in quick support. Or any support at all, really.

    Also, it's sheer preposterous to assume the Iconians are dreading the Dominion at all. The Dominion are at 'our' level of technology, basically; sure, they have engineered their fighters to be tough, and are a pain for us to deal with. But the Iconians could wipe them out easily (as they were doing to us, frankly).

    The Iconians would nonetheless have to deal with the Dominion, sooner or later; but 1 galaxy at a time, eh?! The Iconians primarily focussed on our Quadrant, just so they could blow up Romulus (out of revenge). And it's also entirely possible the Iconians would have simply called it the day, after having taken care of our Quadrant. But not for fearing the Dominion, I assure you.
    ChCDpuh.jpg
  • feiqafeiqa Member Posts: 2,410 Arc User
    Excuse me while I briefly change rails.
    The Dominion is controlled by three races. Of which One of them needs to eat.
    Founders have, as far as can be seen, no natural predators. The ability to share full detail information across all of them. Are supposedly expert genetic engineers. Even though we never see them doing anything medically related. point is they seem to be rather unimaginative on their own relying on same old tricks and not adapting. Despite with shape shifting, adapting should be their hat.
    Jem'hadar. Supposedly genetically engineered from the ground up. Loyal(ish) soldiers that no longer need to eat either. thanks to said engineering and making them dependent on a drug to keep them in line.
    While the Vorta were a race that supposedly was nice to the founders and protected one. For this they were enslaved. genetically rewritten to have bad sight and hearing. Eat only one piece of fruit, and love the founders as gods and be willing to suicide to protect them.
    All of this is all over the place in logic. Vorta are shown as the thinkers of the Dominion. planning, overseeing, and even being the scientists of the group. The jem'hadar seem like the perfect foil for the Vorta. Strong powerful, and bright enough to get past tricks.

    Now this might be me. But I think the vorta actually made the founders to battle the jem'hadar. The remnant of the jem'hadar brought in and turned into soldiers for the fledgling empire. But the founders rebelled and took over the vorta and thus the jem'hadar.

    I know this all sounds left field but bear with me. There was as far as we know. No founder at the signing of the temporal treaty. No jem'hadar either. They sent one lone vorta to bear witness. So the Dominion or at least the founders and their vorta lapdogs survived with respectable relations with the alliance.
    The title is the jem'hadar phrase. "Victory is Life." The only group that had such phrases.

    So this may be an attack. Not of the Dominion. But the Jem'hadar. Learning who they were, they lash out to reclaim their lost lives.
    And we ally with the Dominion remnant to stop them for good. The Dominion loses a servitor race and we have 2800 take 2.

    Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
    Network engineers are not ship designers.
    Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,395 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    As to the Dominion themselves: we recommend observation but no engagement. The Dominion are organized and used to subjugating large numbers of species spread across a large area of space. When the Alpha and Beta Quadrants are firmly under our control then we will have the resources needed to conquer the Dominion as well.
    Yeah, totally not afraid of The Dominion's skills at kicking ****.


    Indeed, totally not afraid of The Dominion at all. Basically, LOL, that bit says *exactly* what I said: that the Iconians would have have to deal with the Dominion, sooner or later, but that they're taking it one galaxy at a time. Which is the totally sensible thing to do, militarily.

    And as for being 'used to subjugating large numbers of species spread across a large area of space,' the Iconians have their own servitor races. That blurp you quoted essentially speaks of conquering the Dominion (as a certainty), but only later on, when they don't have their hands full. That's all.

    Ironically, quoting that, you just undercut your entire argument for the Iconians not (eventually) going after the Dominion.
    ChCDpuh.jpg
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    I would like to imagine that there was no secret plot by the Iconians to defeat The Dominion.

    Nothing in "Sphere of Influence" mentions any sort of covert action being taken directly against them, and only mentions trying to keep the gateways hidden from The Dominion, and staying the hell out of their way until they had conquered the Alpha and Beta quadrants, and thus, had the resources to fight them head on.
    Som.... your arguments seem to be based on a general misunderstanding of the information presented in-game.

    Here's a question you obviously never considered: Who wrote the information in that computer database you keep quoting?

    And a related question: what race built the facility?

    Yeah... two questions, one answer. So treating any of it as definitive proof of what the Iconians plan to do is dumb.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • cactolithcactolith Member Posts: 69 Arc User
    O.o
  • mailman650mailman650 Member Posts: 159 Arc User
    They simply returned because someone forgot their wallet in the Beta Quadrant.
  • daviddxxdaviddxx Member Posts: 200 Arc User
    My only request "NO MORE SELA" thank you that is all

    ya.. please NO MORE SELA ..
    Regarts
    David
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    Star Trek Online
    *** Aktiv since 03.06.10 ***
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,481 Arc User
    She's got nothing else to do except attend conventions.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,186 Arc User
    While the bulk of the information supporting the Invincible Dominion thesis is soft canon at best, (and given what the various entities have done with hard canon, I personally doubt its long term viability,) let us accept it at face value for the moment. (I reserve the right to argue against it later, this is just for the sake of argument.)

    Large centrally controlled empires are inherently unstable from both internal and external pressures. The tendency for powerful persons in distant provinces to build little empires of their own cannot be overlooked, but the biggest issue is that the larger the empire, the larger the border, requiring an ever greater expenditure of resources just to maintain the borders you have. Given the travel times between the center and the border as the primary variable, there is a maximum size an empire can reach before it lacks the resources to protect what it has. This is a geometry problem, not a social one. Even without wars, empires which exceed this ratio of internal volume versus border area collapse or become vulnerable to internal rebellion and external aggression.

    Imperial China is a prime example. The various segments of The Great Wall were built not to keep out the Mongol Hordes, but to restrict trade to points where tax assessors could control it, because even with the massive numbers of soldiers at the Emperor's command, the Empire was incapable of fielding enough troops to patrol the frontiers. But even with the Walls, time and again, the 'barbarians' came in to take a slice of Imperial pie, and the only thing the Chinese could do about it, even with their technological and military superiority, was to eventually intermarry with the barbarians until they were indistinguishable from the local population. There is no doubt that for much of human history the various dynasties which we Westerners call China were the most powerful, technologically advanced, and militarily sophisticated people on the planet, but there were multiple invasions which ended with a foriegner on the throne. The last Emperor of China, who died in 1967, was a Manchu, and not Chinese at all.

    Imperial Rome is another example. Conquering Britain seemed like a good idea at the time, but little bitty Scotland put an end to the growth of the Empire in the British Isles, costing the Romans more than they could gain from further expansion. Why? Rome was so big and Scotland so small, and also a land of competing clans who were never unified at any point during the conflict with Rome. Well, there were other provinces that needed manpower. The German border required massive support, as did Thracia, and Hispania, Libya and Egypt, and Palestine. Scotland survived unconquered by Rome because they foolishly expanded beyond their capacity to defend their borders. Eventually, Emperor Diocletian recognized this and divided the Empire into an Eastern and Western Roman Empire, but it was already too late and the Western half fell quickly to barbarians who raided Rome itself, in spite of the massive disparity between the numbers of the Legions and the numbers of the Barbarians. Because most of the legions were hard pressed to hold what they had, abandoning the outer provinces to save Rome would have meant the end of Rome anyway due to its dependence upon tribute from those provinces. So the numbers of troops needed to defend Rome were available, but could not be used for anything but what they were already doing.

    The Dominion has yet another geometry problem: the legions had to defend a circle, but the Dominion must defend a sphere, meaning the border area is 4 × pi × radius squared rather than pi × radius. This massive surface area must be defended from the barbarians, and this completely discounts the need for internal security, just in case someone disobeys a Vorta and needs to be killed. So, that second 2800: which border are you going to weaken to get them to the fight? Because there are always barbarians waiting for a slice of Imperial pie, and local garisson commanders who think they'd look good in a crown, and rebels wanting to blow up death stars... oh, sorry, wrong franchise. Anyway, it's certain that in an empire founded on and controlled by fear, there are certain to be people who think it would be a fine thing to live without the empire, and removing troops from the region smells a lot like opportunity to me.

    So, out of context assertions by writing staff aside, the Dominion cannot be as powerful as it is said to be without generating equally powerful forces which want to tear it apart.

    And we know so little about all those trillions of oppressed people who yearn to be free.

    So, no. I reject the Invulnerable Empire thesis. It cannot happen. It defies logic even to postulate the existence of such an entity. The more powerful an Empire becomes, the more speedily that Empire's overthrow becomes inevitable. Of course, that doesn't stop the guy who overthrew the Empire from founding another. Wash, rinse, repeat.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,395 Arc User
    The big problem with your whole border problem is that it ignores the fact that The Dominion's armies aren't fed by the limited rate at which races reproduce, but rather, by the incredibly fast rate at which they can clone more Jem'Hadar soldiers.

    The authors used Ketracel White to explain how the Jem'Hadar are forced to remain loyal. They didn't tell you the other side of the story, though: namely, that their dependency on it makes them vulnerable to things like being cut off from their supply of it. Or, indeed, that they can genetically mutate, so as to no longer needing it any more.
    This also largely takes care of any sort of internal corruption problems as Jem'HAdar going rogue is incredibly rare, and nearly unehard of, due to them being genetically created to be obedient slaves.

    I suggest you re-read Orwell's 1984. All great powers always believe they control 100% of every facet of life. This type of control is, of course, an illusion.

    And you still haven't refuted brian334's border issue. Basically, the Dominion are spread too thin, and could, realistically, never hold their entire border.
    ChCDpuh.jpg
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 36,987 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    and add to that the general lack of speed involved with warp travel, the larger the territory, the longer it takes fleets positioned too far away to reinforce beleaguered forces at the incursion point(s)

    the larger your empire gets, the faster your FTL needs to be to effectively secure it against aggressors (or failing that, just have the needed economy and infrastructure to pump out an infinite fleet) - and that's part of what makes the iconians so damn powerful, as their gate technology allows them instant access to any part of the galaxy, and this was demonstrated in Broken Circle when the herald forces guarding the sphere at iconia received reinforcements almost immediately after the alliance launched its assault​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

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  • feiqafeiqa Member Posts: 2,410 Arc User
    And thoughts to a few people.

    The math to the border issue seems wrong somehow. Like if you run it in reverse. My home town of less than a mile square. The police force cannot watch the entire border effectively. Is what this sounds like. And I think is wrong for the concept.
    Central control or staggered control does not mean all defense comes from one point. This would be like the army defending California from Kansas and wondering how the North Koreans landed before they could get there in time. Realistically you cover speed by having shorter distances. IE more bases to respond so an incoming attacker hits a defender pretty swiftly. And they can be reinforced from surrounding other bases. Even with a central government it is not all done from that one point. Some autonomy happens.

    To the point concerning people rising up. SFDebris is currently doing the final arc of DS9 and he covers this. While no hope exists you keep your head down. Even when things get bad you keep your head down because it could only get worse.
    You will get a rebellion if you get one of two scenarios. You have hope for better if you do resist. Or you are pushed down so far it can't get worse. Then fighting back becomes viable and oppressed people strike back. The oppressors razor edge is to never push people so low they have nothing to lose. And be swift and terrifying for bringing down those that say there is a better way. Fail at those. And the Cardassians turn on you mid battle.

    @meimeitoo There is one question that is so odd to me. Why? Why are Jem'hadar capable of turning their back on the founders. When a vorta would rather suicide? We have seen vorta less than loyal to jem'hadar. But I recall none who would turn their backs on the founders. One of the Weyouns thought that some how the war was wrong but could not abandon the founders. But one Founder was on the other side of the war. . . That was his only loophole to rebel. What we do not know is if the pursuer really would have killed Odo to stop the defection. Or if it was just a really convincing bluff.

    Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
    Network engineers are not ship designers.
    Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,186 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    While the bulk of the information supporting the Invincible Dominion
    The straw men continue, The Dominion is far from invincible, both the Iconians, and the Sphere Builders, can beat them.

    Please note that there is a difference between hyperbole and strawmanning.

    I am well aware that you listed two enemies which might challenge the Dominion, but I was referencing the theory that an empire, that any empire, can be inherently stable. Centralized control is always an eventual failure. There are no examples where it is not. And the less homogenous the people of the empire, the more it costs to keep it together.

    The article you cited proves my point, actually. Britain didn't overthrow their conquerors during three internal Roman rebellions, but there were three Roman rebellions in the time the author cited! It also overlooks the fact that there was no one tribe of Britons at the time, and that the situation was more like the American conquest of the native people, both by playing the tribes off against one another and by a continual state of war against the tribes inside the conquered territory and the constant threat that the legions on the border might be removed, thus enabling their unconquered neighbors the chance to come in and take over.

    Finally, your own statement that the Dominion is in a continual state of war is the clincher. If they had the troops and the technological power to eliminate the rebels, most Jem Hadar would live to grow grey ponytails because they wouldn't be in a continual state of war. Removing a significant number of troops, as in your example of Londinium, invites rebellion which would require suppression, but where are those troops going to come from? Any potential replacements are already engaged in security work elsewhere, and removing them would result in two provinces in rebellion.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    Som.... your arguments seem to be based on a general misunderstanding of the information presented in-game.

    Here's a question you obviously never considered: Who wrote the information in that computer database you keep quoting?

    And a related question: what race built the facility?

    Yeah... two questions, one answer. So treating any of it as definitive proof of what the Iconians plan to do is dumb.
    No, they are not.

    The Iconians made that information.

    The facility was built by the Iconians, and exists as part of their gateway network, it was being used by the Solanae since they were forced to live in subspace after getting changed during the industrial accident when making the dyson sphere.
    Really now? they collected information about the Dominion while living in the Andromeda Galaxy? that seems unlikely to me. Also, the architecture of the facility is NOT Iconian. It's the same as that of the Solanae Dyson sphere and the interior of the Obelisk(a Solanae vessel) Obviously it has some similarities, but it has distinct differences as well.

    Oh and the Solanae didn't abandon the Solanae sphere until well after it was completed. (What? you didn't read the BZ lore?)
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
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