[PC] The Stats of the Son'a Ships!

ambassadorkael · July 2017

You've seen the Son'a Lockbox, now learn how the ships will fly!

Full details here:
https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/10571234

szerontzur · July 2017

Wow, the battlecruiser actually hit most of my wishlist for it - the only missing thing is the ability to slot gravity well.

Interestingly, it would appear that cloaking is not, infact, a property of full fledged intel ships(anymore). I am curious where the intel drones are going to launch out of the ship though.

saurializard · July 2017

Hmmm, had the battlecruiser be a dreadnought with a hangar and stations more suitable to my style, it would have become my new main.
Oh well, still gonna grab it for the card and the trait.

legendarylycan · July 2017

reyan01 wrote: »

You know, to me it almost looks like the got the prize ship confused with the Lobi store one.

I mean, the Command Science Vessel looks decent, but the Battlecruiser, arguably, seems better. Shouldn't the ship that is more difficult to obtain be the better of the two?

how many times has that ever happened, though? the dominion dreadnought was lobi store when it came out, and it was leaps and bounds better than the heavy escort and the same with the tholian reculse vs. the orb weaver just to give 2 examples

lobi ships being better than the lockbox offering isn't new - not by a long shot

nommo · July 2017

The Battlecruiser has a higher Shield Modifier than the Science Vessel? Does that make sense? The ships look nice though.

djf021 · July 2017

The Battlecruiser is glorious. I definitely will be wanting that one eventually. Now to figure out which character needs a new ship enough to justify it...

magniacapra · July 2017

Please swap the command specialiaton seat on the battle cruiser to be on the sci not universal please!

szim · July 2017

A science ship with science/command hybrid seat? I don't know about that... The battlecruiser sounds interesting though.

magniacapra · July 2017

magniacapra wrote: »

Please swap the command specialiaton seat on the battle cruiser to be on the sci not universal please!

Actually, I miss-read, only 1 lt commander means i'm probably going to skip. Doesn't compare very well to the intel cruiser, which does have a great bridge officer layout and a cloak.

lordsteve1 · July 2017

Sci ship has lower shield mod than the battle cruiser? That seems a bit odd.

Other than that the sci one looks pretty cool I must admit.

markhawkman · July 2017

szim wrote: »

A science ship with science/command hybrid seat? I don't know about that... The battlecruiser sounds interesting though.

My first thought was gravwell+that command power for giving you free HY torps

legendarylycan · July 2017

i wouldn't be concerned about the stats in the blog...they have yet to make one recently that wasn't copy-pasted from something else and ended up completely error-free

lianthelia · July 2017

markhawkman wrote: »

szim wrote: »

A science ship with science/command hybrid seat? I don't know about that... The battlecruiser sounds interesting though.

My first thought was gravwell+that command power for giving you free HY torps

Especially if you use the Grav Photon...and if you have the trait from BC which opens tears if it doesn't have a internal cooldown...it could be pretty nice. Just a shame the inspiration abilities are kinda meh and take a while to build up.

lordsteve1 · July 2017

Grav well + concentrate firepower + torp spread + grav torp/PEP torp + something fast to proc impacts + overwhelming force + the battle cruiser's trait = a whole lot of fun.

odinforever20000 · July 2017

lordsteve1 wrote: »

Sci ship has lower shield mod than the battle cruiser? That seems a bit odd.

Other than that the sci one looks pretty cool I must admit.

The inertia and turn rating suggest its small..

insanerandomnes · July 2017

reyan01 wrote: »

You know, to me it almost looks like the got the prize ship confused with the Lobi store one.

I mean, the Command Science Vessel looks decent, but the Battlecruiser, arguably, seems better. Shouldn't the ship that is more difficult to obtain be the better of the two?

Points to Vengeance intel dreadnought.

alcyoneserene · July 2017

Battlecruiser looks nice visually, at least from what I can tell in the pictures (which can vary greatly when seen in game - the last Romulan C-store ship is quite ugly despite good pics), but no cloak of any kind on a full intel ship seems really off.

Shield mods for the two ships also make no sense.

The full command spec sci vessel is definitely not my thing.

aspartan1 · July 2017

They look very attractive visually but as previously mentioned, an intel ship without a cloak seems funky...

terraptus · July 2017

Son'a Command OR Science Vessel?

When I learned that we were getting a Science ship with a full Command seat, I was very excited! The previous options for a full Command ship were all cruisers, so the feature on a true Science Vessel was interesting. What new builds might be possible?

Predictably, the Command Seat would be placed on the Commander Science station. This follows the pattern of previous Lockbox/Lobi ships, and wasn't a surprise.

What did surprise is that there wasn't a Lt. Cmdr universal seat...

Why is this significant? On a Science ship, two weapon slots are sacrificed in exchange for a Secondary Deflector and a Commander Science ability. If you sacrifice the Commander Science ability for a Command ability, you remove the most important unique feature of your Science Ship. (no Grav Well III etc.)

This sacrifice would put this Son'a ship at an extreme disadvantage compared to say, the Kelvin Timeline Heavy Command Cruiser, which retains most of its combat/tanking effectiveness due to the Command specialization being on the Engineering Commander Boff. Engineering abilities are primarily heals + buffs/debuffs, whereas Science abilities have similar utility, but also control and offense.

The swap for the Command Cruiser is further palatable because many Command abilities, like Rally Point Marker, can effectively replace and improve upon Engineering Boff heal abilities. This isn't currently the case for Science. There's no equivalent Command ability for Grav Well III or Tyken's Rift.

The result: the Science Commander ability sacrifice hurts the Science ship more than the Engineering Command ability sacrifice hurts the cruiser.

Worse, if you want to use a Lt. Cmdr Command ability, you have to give up your only Lt. Cmndr Science ability as well. This leaves you with only Lt. Science abilities available, no matter your Boff configuration. Most of the Science is taken out of your Command ship!

And if, by utilizing a true Command build, the ship doesn't do Science well, has only 6 weapons slots, no hangar bay, and weaker shields than other Science ships... are we not better off flying a Command Cruiser?

You get an Inspiration ability, yes, but these only last 15 seconds and are very difficult to combine with the long chain of Science or Tactical abilities you are trying to string together, as well as your other captain buffs. If that Inspiration ability duration were longer, say 20 seconds, maybe it would be more appealing, but not as is... and even if you feel this ability was worth it, the other Command cruisers also have it.

Consider that the Geneva Command Cruiser can utilize its full Commander Seating (on its Engineering Cmndr Boff), has 2 extra weapons, a hangar, and still can be configured to use a Lt. Cmndr/Lt./Lt. Science combo. Yes, that means the Command Cruiser can arguably do Science better than the Son'a Command Science ship if both fully utilize Command due to Boff layout. SMH.

Now let's look at a more pragmatic compromise. Keep the Commander Science ability, but sacrifice the Lt. Cmndr slot for a Command Skill. Maybe choose Concentrate Firepower III or Suppression Barrage I. Useful for Exotic Beam Boats that want a little debuff utility or some extra kinetic damage for Torp Boats!

On other ships, like the Edoulg Sphere Builder ship, you could make up for the sacrifice of the Lt. Cmndr seat by way of putting a Science Boff on the Lt. Cmndr Universal seat. Sadly, that's not an option here.

You can't take it deep into a pure Science build, because the Science Trifecta is Grav Well III/Destabilizing Resonance Beam/Subspace Vortex III. This needs a Commander Science slot and two Lt. Cmndr Science slots to pull off.

With the Son'a Command Science ship, even if you went all-in on Science, the best you could do is Cmdr/Lt.Cmdr/Lt. combo.

Do that and you have a good Science ship, but a poor Command ship since you will only be able to utilize the Ensign and Lt. slots for Command abilities.

Go in the other direction, full Command, and you have a ship that can only utilize three Lt. Science skills in combination- none of those being Gravity Well... I hope you have a Constriction Anchor or you can forget about control. Even if you do, the long cooldowns between uses will be a challenge.

So this is the evil choice. Go full Science, and you miss out on the unique Command Abilities of the ship (Lt. Cmndr and Cmndr abilities). And still your ship won't perform in the top tier of Science vessels due to its inferior Boff layout.

Go Full Command, and you miss out on the unique Science abilities of the ship altogether... and get all the drawbacks of having a Science ship (6 weapons) and even drawbacks other Science ships don't (lower shield modifier, no hangar).

Go the hybrid route, and you can't do it very effectively because your universal slot is only a Lt. You'll find that the other Command cruisers outperform it due to Boff layout.

No matter how you try to build this, whether it be Science, Command, or combo, you ultimately end up with a ship inferior to others already in service. And that's a shame, because I was hopeful that the Boff layout for the Son'a Command Science ship would offer a unique build, something to reinvigorate a sleepy Season 13.

Will the trait/console prove to be the real prize? I'm skeptical.

Kick Them While They're Down gives you 5% boost to crit for 15 seconds, which makes it difficult to get too excited about. You'll use your control ability relatively early, and by the time you get to your big damage abilities (after your buffs/debuffs), quite a bit of time has ticked off the clock to get full advantage of the boosted crit chance.

And to get the most out of the trait, you need to stack control effects. For example, Grav Well (Pull) > Jam Sensors (Placate) > Scramble Sensors (Confuse) > Photonic Shockwave (Disable) > Tractor Beam (Hold). Get 5 control effects on your foe (max currently allowed), and get up to 25 percent crit chance! But, current behavior is the crit chance duration does NOT refresh upon application of each new control effect. Meaning the window you get that full 25 percent crit chance boost is very small. And given the constraints on most ships due to Boff seating, at best one could probably fit 2-3 of these control abilities on their ship. There's potential here, but let's see whether the trait is adjusted in the coming weeks.

Provided the duration stays at 15 seconds or longer, and the max number of stacks stays at 5, the Son'a Command Science ship could be worth it for the trait if nothing else. If it's adjusted down to 10 seconds or less, or the max stacks is greatly reduced, likely won't be worth running.

It seems that the Son'a Command Science ship was given drawbacks deliberately because the combination of Command and Science (and Intel?) was considered powerful... but if you're being forced to CHOOSE BETWEEN these abilities anyway due to Boff layout, and the ship has even more drawbacks than other Science ships, where is the value? What can this ship do better than others that have come before to make it worth all those Master Keys?

Of course, complaining about the problem doesn't solve the problem. Let's consider something more constructive.

Could the Son'a Command OR Science ship be adjusted to make it useful? Probably.

My first instinct would be to demote the Lt. Sci Boff slot to Ensign. Then, upgrade the Universal Boff seat to Lt. Cmndr. However, since the Intel spec was put on this seat, and it would make the ship too powerful, you'd have to move that Intel specialization to the Lt. Engineering Boff slot. This is similar to the Edoulg layout, which faces similar challenges, but has better customization due to the Lt. Cmndr Universal seat (not to mention the 4 weapon slots in the fore).

I'd also add a hangar. If that's a no go, I'd boost the shield modifier (currently 1.285) to at least be higher than or equal to the Son'a Intel Cruiser (1.35), but not as high as the Eternal (1.475). I suspect the shield modifier is lower deliberately due to the inclusion of the Intel seat and its potential for Override Subsystem Safeties II boosting the ship's defensive ability... yet the Edoulg does this already, and has a 1.45 modifier, so what is the real problem?

If such changes were made, the Son'a Command Science ship would be in the conversation for one of the top Science vessels in the fleet, along with the Edoulg, Eternal, and the Yorktown Science Star Cruiser. But most importantly, making the Boff layout change for the Son'a Command Science ship would ensure that it does Science better than other Command cruisers when utilizing its full Command Boff abilities, particularly the Geneva... something that I feel it should as a true Science ship.

Those are my 2 cents! If the Son'a Command Science ship stays as is, maybe consider the feedback when making Boff layout decisions for future Command Science vessels. I'd like to fly such a ship, so long as there's a viable build that doesn't force me to choose between doing Science or doing Command. We need a configuration that lets us do both effectively. And right now, the better Command Science setup is arguably on the Geneva... a Command Science Cruiser.

nommo · July 2017

terraptus#0769 wrote: »

Son'a Command OR Science Vessel?

When I learned that we were getting a Science ship with a full Command seat, I was very excited! The previous options for a full Command ship were all cruisers, so the feature on a true Science Vessel was interesting. What new builds might be possible?

Predictably, the Command Seat would be placed on the Commander Science station. This follows the pattern of previous Lockbox/Lobi ships, and wasn't a surprise.

What did surprise is that there wasn't a Lt. Cmdr universal seat...

Why is this significant? On a Science ship, two weapon slots are sacrificed in exchange for a Secondary Deflector and a Commander Science ability. If you sacrifice the Commander Science ability for a Command ability, you remove the most important unique feature of your Science Ship. (no Grav Well III etc.)

This sacrifice would put this Son'a ship at an extreme disadvantage compared to say, the Kelvin Timeline Heavy Command Cruiser, which retains most of its combat/tanking effectiveness due to the Command specialization being on the Engineering Commander Boff. Engineering abilities are primarily heals + buffs/debuffs, whereas Science abilities have similar utility, but also control and offense.

The swap for the Command Cruiser is further palatable because many Command abilities, like Rally Point Marker, can effectively replace and improve upon Engineering Boff heal abilities. This isn't currently the case for Science. There's no equivalent Command ability for Grav Well III or Tyken's Rift.

The result: the Science Commander ability sacrifice hurts the Science ship more than the Engineering Command ability sacrifice hurts the cruiser.

Worse, if you want to use a Lt. Cmdr Command ability, you have to give up your only Lt. Cmndr Science ability as well. This leaves you with only Lt. Science abilities available, no matter your Boff configuration. Most of the Science is taken out of your Command ship!

And if, by utilizing a true Command build, the ship doesn't do Science well, has only 6 weapons slots, no hangar bay, and weaker shields than other Science ships... are we not better off flying a Command Cruiser?

You get an Inspiration ability, yes, but these only last 15 seconds and are very difficult to combine with the long chain of Science or Tactical abilities you are trying to string together, as well as your other captain buffs. If that Inspiration ability duration were longer, say 20 seconds, maybe it would be more appealing, but not as is... and even if you feel this ability was worth it, the other Command cruisers also have it.

Consider that the Geneva Command Cruiser can utilize its full Commander Seating (on its Engineering Cmndr Boff), has 2 extra weapons, a hangar, and still can be configured to use a Lt. Cmndr/Lt./Lt. Science combo. Yes, that means the Command Cruiser can arguably do Science better than the Son'a Command Science ship if both fully utilize Command due to Boff layout. SMH.

Now let's look at a more pragmatic compromise. Keep the Commander Science ability, but sacrifice the Lt. Cmndr slot for a Command Skill. Maybe choose Concentrate Firepower III or Suppression Barrage I. Useful for Exotic Beam Boats that want a little debuff utility or some extra kinetic damage for Torp Boats!

On other ships, like the Edoulg Sphere Builder ship, you could make up for the sacrifice of the Lt. Cmndr seat by way of putting a Science Boff on the Lt. Cmndr Universal seat. Sadly, that's not an option here.

You can't take it deep into a pure Science build, because the Science Trifecta is Grav Well III, Tyken's Rift/Destabilizing Resonance Beam, Subspace Vortex III. This needs a Commander Science slot and two Lt. Cmndr Science slots to pull off.

With the Son'a Command Science ship, even if you went all-in on Science, the best you could do is Cmdr/Lt.Cmdr/Lt. combo.

Do that and you have a good Science ship, but a poor Command ship since you will only be able to utilize the Ensign and Lt. slots for Command abilities.

Go in the other direction, full Command, and you have a ship that can only utilize three Lt. Science skills in combination- none of those being Gravity Well... I hope you have a Constriction Anchor or you can forget about control. Even if you do, the long cooldowns between uses will be a challenge.

So this is the evil choice. Go full Science, and you miss out on the unique Command Abilities of the ship (Lt. Cmndr and Cmndr abilities). And still your ship won't perform in the top tier of Science vessels due to its inferior Boff layout.

Go Full Command, and you miss out on the unique Science abilities of the ship altogether... and get all the drawbacks of having a Science ship (6 weapons) and even drawbacks other Science ships don't (lower shield modifier, no hangar).

Go the hybrid route, and you can't do it very effectively because your universal slot is only a Lt. You'll find that the other Command cruisers outperform it due to Boff layout.

No matter how you try to build this, whether it be Science, Command, or combo, you ultimately end up with a ship inferior to others already in service. And that's a shame, because I was hopeful that the Boff layout for the Son'a Command Science ship would offer a unique build, something to reinvigorate a sleepy Season 13.

Will the trait/console prove to be the real prize? I'm skeptical. The reports were the boost to crit was only 10 seconds (need confirmation), which if true makes it difficult to get excited about. You'll use your control ability relatively early, and by the time you get to your big damage abilities (after your buffs/debuffs), too much time has ticked off the clock to get full advantage of the boosted crit chance. But if the trait is adjusted at some point, the Son'a Command Science ship could be worth it for the trait if nothing else.

It seems that the Son'a Command Science ship was given drawbacks deliberately because the combination of Command and Science (and Intel?) was considered powerful... but if you're being forced to CHOOSE BETWEEN these abilities anyway due to Boff layout, and the ship has even more drawbacks than other Science ships, where is the value? What can this ship do better than others that have come before to make it worth all those Master Keys?

Of course, complaining about the problem doesn't solve the problem. Let's consider something more constructive.

Could the Son'a Command OR Science ship be adjusted to make it useful? Probably.

My first instinct would be to demote the Lt. Sci Boff slot to Ensign. Then, upgrade the Universal Boff seat to Lt. Cmndr. However, since the Intel spec was put on this seat, and it would make the ship too powerful, you'd have to move that Intel specialization to the Lt. Engineering Boff slot. This is similar to the Edoulg layout, which faces similar challenges, but has better customization due to the Lt. Cmndr Universal seat (not to mention the 4 weapon slots in the fore).

I'd also add a hangar. If that's a no go, I'd boost the shield modifier (currently 1.285) to at least be higher than or equal to the Son'a Intel Cruiser (1.35), but not as high as the Eternal (1.475). I suspect the shield modifier is lower deliberately due to the inclusion of the Intel seat and its potential for Override Subsystem Safeties II boosting the ship's defensive ability... yet the Edoulg does this already, and has a 1.45 modifier, so what is the real problem?

If such changes were made, the Son'a Command Science ship would be in the conversation for one of the top Science vessels in the fleet, along with the Edoulg, Eternal, and the Yorktown Science Star Cruiser. But most importantly, making the Boff layout change for the Son'a Command Science ship would ensure that it does Science better than other Command cruisers when utilizing its full Command Boff abilities, particularly the Geneva... something that I feel it should as a true Science ship.

Those are my 2 cents! If the Son'a Command Science ship stays as is, maybe consider the feedback when making Boff layout decisions for future Command Science vessels. I'd like to fly such a ship, so long as there's a viable build that doesn't force me to choose between doing Science or doing Command. We need a configuration that lets us do both effectively. And right now, the better Command Science setup is arguably on the Geneva... a Command Science Cruiser.

Well thought-out critique. I think the Son'a Comm. Sci. Vessel is a victim of it's own ambition in trying to do two things at once resulting in neither performing done well. Right after the stats being announced I thought the Shield Modifier being that low was a typo especially when compared to other similar vessels even with accounting for other hull strengths. I like that Cryptic thought of having a 1st Comm. Sci. ship, but the devil's in the details. I like the idea of a boost to it's shield modifier & a slight altering of it's Station Seating which should make it a good Comm. Sci. ship. Otherwise I think the Intel. Battlecruiser is the superior vessel by most criteria.

[PC] The Stats of the Son'a Ships!

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