Look, the simple fact is that regardless of what dev x said about the KDF they are clearly not the same thing that is being suggested here.
The problems with under/over developed factions is an entirely different problem for this game and a huge headache to sort out. I wouldn't expect them to try and change that.
But the option to play as your favourite bad guy in a pvpve setting running the current missions could be quite revitalising for the game. It would remove the need for an arms race to be the best bad guy as set builds would be used. And it would as a result be pretty casual friendly to play as the bad guys, no expensive gear needed, no fancy min-max builds, just log in and go for a few runs.
It would allow players to control, say, a Borg Drone or Borg Cube, without requiring the difficulty of making this actually a faction with a story or a lockbox ship and having countless of people flying around with them on ESD.
It could also be monetized, by giving access to certain ships or abilities only by purchasing with Dilithium/Zen/Lobi or whatever currency Cryptic prefers. (They can probably not limit access to monster play itself - after all, the monster side needs a healthy population or otherwise there is no monster play happening at all.)
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Cryptic has already tried the Monster Play system in Champions Online. Based off my time there I see Monster Play as a waste of resources that could be better used in countless other ways.
The KDF and the less so the romulans have a real lack of lower level ships and while it's generally agreed that the lower levels do just fly past you having those missing ship types give players a chance to learn how to play them before they reach level 40 and wonder what the heck an escort carrier is.
Defera still needs a fresh coat of paint or at least another round of bug fixing. It's one of our first battlezones and generally newer players always start with borg rep so having it be on point would set a tone for the rest of the endgame.
With the large scale balance pass going on tribble I think any talk of any new pvp modes would be hasty.
Speaking of pvp, I have heard little of what is going to happen to older pvp maps, I wager nothing but I would like to see the older pvp game modes get an update as well.
Oh yes, based off test flight missions (which I feel a little mixed on being seemly dead) Cryptic does not seem skilled when it comes to power set up also there is a nasty little bug with power trays getting screwed with after a test flight mission
I could keep going but final words. LOTRO has brought up a lot, key fact is that in LOTRO monster play is just about the only form of pvp outside of dueling within that game. This is not the case in STO, there is a pvp system in place here and as I said in my early line roughly, monster play would be a waste of resources that only caters to a small subsection of the playerbase.
"Based off my time in a poorly realized Superhero game that has been in maintenance mode for years now..."
The gap between Champs and STO is wide, and let's hope the Devs can learn from mistakes. Monster play as has been described in this thread, if implemented well, would be a great form a casual PvP with low enough stakes that people who aren't fans of PvP could enjoy. Just because it's the ONLY form of PvP in LOTRO doesn't take away the fact that it's a very well-made system.
I can have 5 different ways to PVP, but if the model sucks, what's the point? Quality over quantity.
- They're not going to make KDF and Romulans a priority. It's been said before. Get over it.
- I don't think suggesting a new idea, in any respect, is "hasty." Hasty doesn't apply to ideas, just development and implementation.
- Defera is a wasted zone, has been for years, and probably won't be updated soon.
It's clear that Cryptic puts a priority on new content over revamping old content. Yes, there are notable exceptions, but generally Cryptic is very much focused on churning out new stuff. New stuff brings in new money and new players. How many neglected old zones do we see in the game?
I think it's more feasible for Cryptic to look into creating new things that can help bring back some spirit of cooperation and competition, then to sit on our thumbs and to wait for Cryptic to "fix it."
-I never said make the KDF/Romulans a priority, please do try to avoid putting words in my mouth, it's a rude habit.
-I think there is a talent that everyone should learn and use. It's being able to take a step back and look at any plans or idea they make and see how it could go wrong. The fact that you have not told anyone about how your purposed pvp system would handle win trading, lopsided matches, and other hazards of pvp tells me you was "hasty" in creating this idea or you want these things to happen. I know Dental does not malice filled players among them so I think you was just incompetent or just young. It's okay
-I think the old exploration clusters was a wasted zone but there is players who would love to see them back. You're not Cryptic and you can't speak for the playerbase. Defera is the borg battlezone, the first battlezone that most new players will see really. To have it a poor state give new players the idea that Cryptic is not a skilled company. I don't think that is the case.
As you said, there is notable exceptions but generally Cryptic always moves forward. I would like to see them move forward in the right direction. Maybe if this new pvp rep turns now good we can go back to this idea but as of right I think monster play would be unneeded or really wanted by most of the playerbase.
well in lotro monster play IS pvp. and it's a very segregated portion of the game that is very easy to ignore for 8 years.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
sure, if it's confined and not applied to all queues.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
lol ok. call me when you're on the development team. if they want to waste resources on another pvp queue that's fine by me. heck another pvp battlezone - why not.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Some PvP, especially monster play which is not pure PvP, is exactly what this game needs. PvP has been neglected for a long time and it deserves some attention. Why should Cryptic only cater to the wishes of the players who want the easy victory (and easy rewards) that PvE with its easy to predict AI provides?
Many players agree that there is a problem with the queues, this could be just what's needed to revitalise them: making content less predictable. Every instance would be unique, it would make team work more important and players would actually have to be aware and pay attention to what's going on - thereby separating the ones who are just good at exploiting broken mechanisms and mindless stacking of buffs from those who are actually somewhat capable.
The reason most queues are empty is not (solely) because they don't have a good effort-reward ratio, it's mainly because there is no challenge. It's the same map with the same groups of enemies in the same locations over and over again. So of course players go to the queues that can be completed the fastest because there is no real reason why one would want to stay there for a longer time. It is not surprising that this is demotivating to players - hence al the complaining about 'mindless grinding'.
Human minds should not and usually don't want to be subjected to mindlessly repeating the same boring tasks as if it were factory work (which would explain the other term that is sometimes used: STO as a 'second job'). So why oppose some of these changes that could address all of these issues and some of the major complaints at the same time?
LOTRO did have problems years ago with setups between Monsters and Free Peoples Characters, each side playing the 'punching bag' alternately to level up the MPvP Rankings. Turbine made changes to prevent that.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
"Based off my time in a poorly realized Superhero game that has been in maintenance mode for years now..."
The gap between Champs and STO is wide, and let's hope the Devs can learn from mistakes. Monster play as has been described in this thread, if implemented well, would be a great form a casual PvP with low enough stakes that people who aren't fans of PvP could enjoy. Just because it's the ONLY form of PvP in LOTRO doesn't take away the fact that it's a very well-made system.
I can have 5 different ways to PVP, but if the model sucks, what's the point? Quality over quantity.
- They're not going to make KDF and Romulans a priority. It's been said before. Get over it.
- I don't think suggesting a new idea, in any respect, is "hasty." Hasty doesn't apply to ideas, just development and implementation.
- Defera is a wasted zone, has been for years, and probably won't be updated soon.
It's clear that Cryptic puts a priority on new content over revamping old content. Yes, there are notable exceptions, but generally Cryptic is very much focused on churning out new stuff. New stuff brings in new money and new players. How many neglected old zones do we see in the game?
I think it's more feasible for Cryptic to look into creating new things that can help bring back some spirit of cooperation and competition, then to sit on our thumbs and to wait for Cryptic to "fix it."
-I never said make the KDF/Romulans a priority, please do try to avoid putting words in my mouth, it's a rude habit.
-I think there is a talent that everyone should learn and use. It's being able to take a step back and look at any plans or idea they make and see how it could go wrong. The fact that you have not told anyone about how your purposed pvp system would handle win trading, lopsided matches, and other hazards of pvp tells me you was "hasty" in creating this idea or you want these things to happen. I know Dental does not malice filled players among them so I think you was just incompetent or just young. It's okay
-I think the old exploration clusters was a wasted zone but there is players who would love to see them back. You're not Cryptic and you can't speak for the playerbase. Defera is the borg battlezone, the first battlezone that most new players will see really. To have it a poor state give new players the idea that Cryptic is not a skilled company. I don't think that is the case.
As you said, there is notable exceptions but generally Cryptic always moves forward. I would like to see them move forward in the right direction. Maybe if this new pvp rep turns now good we can go back to this idea but as of right I think monster play would be unneeded or really wanted by most of the playerbase.
The point of posting something on a public forum and essentially asking "hey, guys, what do you think?" is an act of collaborative idea-making. I had an idea -- one that could be developed on more -- and other people have come into the thread with their own idea, tweaks, what-not. So, yes, I did not have every detail mapped out, but I'm also not a Dev and do not understand the back-end of how to implement it. I suspect you don't either when making suggestions.
Negative personal comments moderated out.
Negative personal comments moderated out.
Also I never said I was a dev or fully understand the back end of game design, once again you're trying to put words in my mouth, it's quite rude. I hoped to better from you. Your fleet has done such good for the playerbase, to launch such personal attacks at me seem very out of character for a dental member.
But anyways, while I do rarely make suggestions I generally keep them small scale. As I said in an earlier post in this thread I always try to be my own devil's advocate, a talent lost to the world. If I see too many or too big flaws in my idea I don't say the idea or I at least have the common sense to state the pitfalls to my suggestions.
If by trolling you mean trying to play your side's objectives, which are to stop the hero's winning then yes.
Any "trolling" would be no more that one side or the other winning the mission. That there is basic PVP 101.
"Trolling" is what the OP describes doing in the start of this post; deliberately making things harder for the rest of your team for your own gratification. (And, if the OP actually reads this response, I will note that DPS-snobs level that charge against anyone who enters a run with a less-than-optimal build. However I'd argue there is a serious difference of intent between someone going in with a weak-because-incomplete build, and someone setting out to sabotage other players' efforts)
In a scenario where you're supposed to be causing trouble - such as the PVP-lite options coming next season - then it's not trolling, because the targets have volunteered for the challenge.
If by trolling you mean trying to play your side's objectives, which are to stop the hero's winning then yes.
Any "trolling" would be no more that one side or the other winning the mission. That there is basic PVP 101.
"Trolling" is what the OP describes doing in the start of this post; deliberately making things harder for the rest of your team for your own gratification. (And, if the OP actually reads this response, I will note that DPS-snobs level that charge against anyone who enters a run with a less-than-optimal build. However I'd argue there is a serious difference of intent between someone going in with a weak-because-incomplete build, and someone setting out to sabotage other players' efforts)
In a scenario where you're supposed to be causing trouble - such as the PVP-lite options coming next season - then it's not trolling, because the targets have volunteered for the challenge.
Well if this change were implemented then people could also anticipate that it might happen in a queue. So, following that line of reasoning, then it's not trolling.
Defera still needs a fresh coat of paint or at least another round of bug fixing. It's one of our first battlezones and generally newer players always start with borg rep so having it be on point would set a tone for the rest of the endgame.
I have heard little of what is going to happen to older pvp maps, I wager nothing but I would like to see the older pvp game modes get an update as well.
Cryptic has already said several times that Defera will never be fixed because it is simply incomplete, and the sheer cost of fixing and completing it would be more then just making a new battlezone, and that, while they have the money to make another battlezone to replace the broken and unfinished Defera battlezone, they can't justify spending that much money on Defera unless they eventually go back and do another big Borg focused arc.
Cryptic said in the past(this was many years ago) that the old PVP maps will likely get axed and replaced when they do a PVP revamped.
Well, this could be interesting. You play as "monsters" with, no kit skills, no med kits, no control over an away team, no gear, no respawns and no exp or drops. Hmmm I dont see that being popular. Only way it would work is if you could have the same kind of gear, kits, skills that a PC has and that is a no go. I think in the end the folks who want this are just trying to drum up PvP or hoping for carmel covered trolling.
Well if this change were implemented then people could also anticipate that it might happen in a queue. So, following that line of reasoning, then it's not trolling.
Agreed - which is of course the whole point of monsterplay. What I was doing is contrasting this with the OP's current approach, which could be read as sabotaging the rest of the team for their own amusement. I am admittedly making the assumption this is done in PUGs, rather than in preplanned sessions where his fleetmates are expecting it.
Well if this change were implemented then people could also anticipate that it might happen in a queue. So, following that line of reasoning, then it's not trolling.
Agreed - which is of course the whole point of monsterplay. What I was doing is contrasting this with the OP's current approach, which could be read as sabotaging the rest of the team for their own amusement. I am admittedly making the assumption this is done in PUGs, rather than in preplanned sessions where his fleetmates are expecting it.
Oh lord did you actually read Nabreeki's whole opening post? Or did you just decide to single out one paragraph?
The idea he is suggesting is to add in a "monster-play" system whereby players can side with the bad guys in the familiar queues. These would be separate from the current queues which are solely PVE, and they would allow you to play from the other side fora change. Give the "bad guys" a set build (probably souped up to compete with players), maybe with reduced respawn times and let them have at each other. Whoever completes their objectives wins. For the players it's the same or similar current objective. For the baddies its to stop the players within x-time, or wipe them out or whatever.
None of that is trolling in the slightest as both sides are playing to complete their objectives. That's basic PVP right there, two sides fighting, each trying to win.
Now the first paragraph you took issue with is Nabreeki showing that currently the ONLY way to get even close to monster-play is to have one or more people in the queue "swap sides" to try and slow up the other human players. It's not ideal and it really doesn't work very well as you can't even shoot they players or use most of your abilities on friendly targets, plus the real enemies are still trying to kill you too.
Now if you were to try that on an innocent pug without warning, yes it would be trolling. But in a pre-arranging setting.....no, not if everyone knew what was going on.
The idea being suggested would allow for PVP in a mission scenario but with less less chance for accusations of trolling.
Not only that but anyone that plays as a monster will loose a lot! Players will always be more powerful and will gang up on the monster so all monster play would do is make PvE queues far more interesting.
@sheldonlcooper if you have nothing important to add or aren't going to read the whole post and bother to understand what you're reading then please don't comment. It's obvious that after 7 years of not caring about any sort of PvP that they're not going to force a rageful anti-PvP community to PvP. It's obvious that this would be completely optional. It's obvious that your only concern is that cryptic keeps the mundane and floating HP sponge nature of NPCs so that your feelings don't get hurt by a player that's better than you. It's abundantly obvious that the loud, rageful, anti-PvP community is undeniably responsible for the FAW, spacebar, 150k+ DPS meta that the majority in PvE now hate because it's reduced PvE to a children's daycare. And finally, it's obvious that PvE needs help because the queues are empty and no one now seems to know how to do 80% of them.
I went in the Cure the other day and I couldn't believe how many people don't know how to do it. It's almost disgraceful the attitude of players in STO. Expecting everything to be given to them or they'll throw a tantrum, 'give us the broken op shiny so we can hit 200k DPS, ISA or CE, anything else is too complicated and doesn't make sense because I shouldn't have to think, all I should have to do is hit the spacebar'.
OK, folks. Let's all calm down and keep the PvP in-game and off the forums.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Comments
The problems with under/over developed factions is an entirely different problem for this game and a huge headache to sort out. I wouldn't expect them to try and change that.
But the option to play as your favourite bad guy in a pvpve setting running the current missions could be quite revitalising for the game. It would remove the need for an arms race to be the best bad guy as set builds would be used. And it would as a result be pretty casual friendly to play as the bad guys, no expensive gear needed, no fancy min-max builds, just log in and go for a few runs.
It would allow players to control, say, a Borg Drone or Borg Cube, without requiring the difficulty of making this actually a faction with a story or a lockbox ship and having countless of people flying around with them on ESD.
It could also be monetized, by giving access to certain ships or abilities only by purchasing with Dilithium/Zen/Lobi or whatever currency Cryptic prefers. (They can probably not limit access to monster play itself - after all, the monster side needs a healthy population or otherwise there is no monster play happening at all.)
The KDF and the less so the romulans have a real lack of lower level ships and while it's generally agreed that the lower levels do just fly past you having those missing ship types give players a chance to learn how to play them before they reach level 40 and wonder what the heck an escort carrier is.
Defera still needs a fresh coat of paint or at least another round of bug fixing. It's one of our first battlezones and generally newer players always start with borg rep so having it be on point would set a tone for the rest of the endgame.
With the large scale balance pass going on tribble I think any talk of any new pvp modes would be hasty.
Speaking of pvp, I have heard little of what is going to happen to older pvp maps, I wager nothing but I would like to see the older pvp game modes get an update as well.
Oh yes, based off test flight missions (which I feel a little mixed on being seemly dead) Cryptic does not seem skilled when it comes to power set up also there is a nasty little bug with power trays getting screwed with after a test flight mission
I could keep going but final words. LOTRO has brought up a lot, key fact is that in LOTRO monster play is just about the only form of pvp outside of dueling within that game. This is not the case in STO, there is a pvp system in place here and as I said in my early line roughly, monster play would be a waste of resources that only caters to a small subsection of the playerbase.
-I never said make the KDF/Romulans a priority, please do try to avoid putting words in my mouth, it's a rude habit.
-I think there is a talent that everyone should learn and use. It's being able to take a step back and look at any plans or idea they make and see how it could go wrong. The fact that you have not told anyone about how your purposed pvp system would handle win trading, lopsided matches, and other hazards of pvp tells me you was "hasty" in creating this idea or you want these things to happen. I know Dental does not malice filled players among them so I think you was just incompetent or just young. It's okay
-I think the old exploration clusters was a wasted zone but there is players who would love to see them back. You're not Cryptic and you can't speak for the playerbase. Defera is the borg battlezone, the first battlezone that most new players will see really. To have it a poor state give new players the idea that Cryptic is not a skilled company. I don't think that is the case.
As you said, there is notable exceptions but generally Cryptic always moves forward. I would like to see them move forward in the right direction. Maybe if this new pvp rep turns now good we can go back to this idea but as of right I think monster play would be unneeded or really wanted by most of the playerbase.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Many players agree that there is a problem with the queues, this could be just what's needed to revitalise them: making content less predictable. Every instance would be unique, it would make team work more important and players would actually have to be aware and pay attention to what's going on - thereby separating the ones who are just good at exploiting broken mechanisms and mindless stacking of buffs from those who are actually somewhat capable.
The reason most queues are empty is not (solely) because they don't have a good effort-reward ratio, it's mainly because there is no challenge. It's the same map with the same groups of enemies in the same locations over and over again. So of course players go to the queues that can be completed the fastest because there is no real reason why one would want to stay there for a longer time. It is not surprising that this is demotivating to players - hence al the complaining about 'mindless grinding'.
Human minds should not and usually don't want to be subjected to mindlessly repeating the same boring tasks as if it were factory work (which would explain the other term that is sometimes used: STO as a 'second job'). So why oppose some of these changes that could address all of these issues and some of the major complaints at the same time?
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Negative personal comments moderated out.
Also I never said I was a dev or fully understand the back end of game design, once again you're trying to put words in my mouth, it's quite rude. I hoped to better from you. Your fleet has done such good for the playerbase, to launch such personal attacks at me seem very out of character for a dental member.
But anyways, while I do rarely make suggestions I generally keep them small scale. As I said in an earlier post in this thread I always try to be my own devil's advocate, a talent lost to the world. If I see too many or too big flaws in my idea I don't say the idea or I at least have the common sense to state the pitfalls to my suggestions.
Negative comments moderated out.
"Trolling" is what the OP describes doing in the start of this post; deliberately making things harder for the rest of your team for your own gratification. (And, if the OP actually reads this response, I will note that DPS-snobs level that charge against anyone who enters a run with a less-than-optimal build. However I'd argue there is a serious difference of intent between someone going in with a weak-because-incomplete build, and someone setting out to sabotage other players' efforts)
In a scenario where you're supposed to be causing trouble - such as the PVP-lite options coming next season - then it's not trolling, because the targets have volunteered for the challenge.
Well if this change were implemented then people could also anticipate that it might happen in a queue. So, following that line of reasoning, then it's not trolling.
Cirran
Agreed - which is of course the whole point of monsterplay. What I was doing is contrasting this with the OP's current approach, which could be read as sabotaging the rest of the team for their own amusement. I am admittedly making the assumption this is done in PUGs, rather than in preplanned sessions where his fleetmates are expecting it.
Oh lord did you actually read Nabreeki's whole opening post? Or did you just decide to single out one paragraph?
The idea he is suggesting is to add in a "monster-play" system whereby players can side with the bad guys in the familiar queues. These would be separate from the current queues which are solely PVE, and they would allow you to play from the other side fora change. Give the "bad guys" a set build (probably souped up to compete with players), maybe with reduced respawn times and let them have at each other. Whoever completes their objectives wins. For the players it's the same or similar current objective. For the baddies its to stop the players within x-time, or wipe them out or whatever.
None of that is trolling in the slightest as both sides are playing to complete their objectives. That's basic PVP right there, two sides fighting, each trying to win.
Now the first paragraph you took issue with is Nabreeki showing that currently the ONLY way to get even close to monster-play is to have one or more people in the queue "swap sides" to try and slow up the other human players. It's not ideal and it really doesn't work very well as you can't even shoot they players or use most of your abilities on friendly targets, plus the real enemies are still trying to kill you too.
Now if you were to try that on an innocent pug without warning, yes it would be trolling. But in a pre-arranging setting.....no, not if everyone knew what was going on.
The idea being suggested would allow for PVP in a mission scenario but with less less chance for accusations of trolling.
@sheldonlcooper if you have nothing important to add or aren't going to read the whole post and bother to understand what you're reading then please don't comment. It's obvious that after 7 years of not caring about any sort of PvP that they're not going to force a rageful anti-PvP community to PvP.
It's obvious that this would be completely optional.
It's obvious that your only concern is that cryptic keeps the mundane and floating HP sponge nature of NPCs so that your feelings don't get hurt by a player that's better than you.
It's abundantly obvious that the loud, rageful, anti-PvP community is undeniably responsible for the FAW, spacebar, 150k+ DPS meta that the majority in PvE now hate because it's reduced PvE to a children's daycare.
And finally, it's obvious that PvE needs help because the queues are empty and no one now seems to know how to do 80% of them.
I went in the Cure the other day and I couldn't believe how many people don't know how to do it. It's almost disgraceful the attitude of players in STO. Expecting everything to be given to them or they'll throw a tantrum, 'give us the broken op shiny so we can hit 200k DPS, ISA or CE, anything else is too complicated and doesn't make sense because I shouldn't have to think, all I should have to do is hit the spacebar'.
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