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[Video] - The Duplicate T'Nae Explained

Hey guys, after playing "Survivor" I wanted to get to the bottom of why there are 2 T'Nae's, thanks to the wonderful feedback on my playthrough of "Survivor" everyone reminded me this originates from the mission "Temporal Ambassador." I therefore set out to replay this mission with the goal if pinpointing the moment and reasoning for why there is a second T'Nae. In this video I talk a lot about it, and figure it all out. At the end of the video I go into great detail, and even bring up a continuity error regarding Tasha Yar I don't think anyone has picked up on just yet. It's a long vid, but a good watch with a lot of info.



BTW, if you have not seen my playthrough of "Survivor" you can check that out as well, it's a very very long video, but I take my time and explore the storyline in-depth, in fact you'll probably want to watch this one first, before the one above.



I'm probably going to have a third video, going over this continuity error I discovered, now that we have some solid dates, my theory holds true, and brings up more questions.

Have fun everyone!

-Brent Justice

Comments

  • thay8472thay8472 Member Posts: 5,970 Arc User
    Is it an alternate timeline though and not a parallel universe created by the ENT-C when it originally travelled forward in time? and my brain just melted.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    thay8472 wrote: »
    Is it an alternate timeline though and not a parallel universe created by the ENT-C when it originally travelled forward in time? and my brain just melted.

    I haven't seen the videos but episodes dealing in time travel create new timelines (Parallels, Yesterdays Enterprise, that TOS one with the woman getting run over, Endgame, the Kelvin Timeline etc.).

    Alternate universe are limited to basically the Mirror Universe (its existence is independent of the Prime Universe) though even that universe might have its own alternate timelines (depending on how over-complicated you want to make the cloaking situation)
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • thay8472thay8472 Member Posts: 5,970 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    thay8472 wrote: »
    Is it an alternate timeline though and not a parallel universe created by the ENT-C when it originally travelled forward in time? and my brain just melted.

    I haven't seen the videos but episodes dealing in time travel create new timelines (Parallels, Yesterdays Enterprise, that TOS one with the woman getting run over, Endgame, the Kelvin Timeline etc.).

    Alternate universe are limited to basically the Mirror Universe (its existence is independent of the Prime Universe) though even that universe might have its own alternate timelines (depending on how over-complicated you want to make the cloaking situation)

    That would be a parallel universe, not a new timeline. Although I suppose both terms could be applied ...

  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    thay8472 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    thay8472 wrote: »
    Is it an alternate timeline though and not a parallel universe created by the ENT-C when it originally travelled forward in time? and my brain just melted.

    I haven't seen the videos but episodes dealing in time travel create new timelines (Parallels, Yesterdays Enterprise, that TOS one with the woman getting run over, Endgame, the Kelvin Timeline etc.).

    Alternate universe are limited to basically the Mirror Universe (its existence is independent of the Prime Universe) though even that universe might have its own alternate timelines (depending on how over-complicated you want to make the cloaking situation)

    That would be a parallel universe, not a new timeline. Although I suppose both terms could be applied ...

    They've never been called either a universe or a timeline until the Kelvin Timeline (as it's official name obviously, in story they called it a Alternate Reality which confuses everything) so you can extrapolate the difference between a universe and a timeline based on that and the Mirror Universe. The former is formed from a change in the Prime Timeline, the latter exists independently.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • burstorionburstorion Member Posts: 1,750 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    Regarding the overlap of the two Tashas/other possible temporal/dimensional duplicates... maybe there were bubbles but temporal agents fixed them before they became an issue?

    I personally get the feeling Survivor/alt T'Nae is one of those temporal linchpins; namely while they covertly sorted out Yars bubbles (after all, all they need do is reintergrate the two Tashas... theres nothing to say they can't create a clone (likely the younger Tasha, if they reintegrated the prenatal Tasha into the Survivor Tasha, there would be no memories to recall then simply placed a cloned Tasha into their mother... which my guess is how they 'solve' any other bubble issues - its simply as T'Nae (present) is in a position of power, they reintegrate adults into each other as the knowledge of T'Nae having undergone this would serve dividends in the future as they'd have an ally who trusts them)) they left T'Naes for a machevellian purpose.

    From the looks of the end sequence of Survivor, it is a linchpin moment that will have an effect down the temporal line

    Of course, this does mean the temporal agents are implicit in leaving T'Nae, Tasha and the rest to die in a temporally distorted hellhole, deciding not to rescue them despite knowing they were there (and taking Tasha off the planet to perform the integration); but as we've seen prior; maintaining the timeline is more important than such things to them (and Walker was duped too, come to think of it as the temporal distortions would have to have been concealed by higher ups until the right time, which also could explain why Tasha and T'Nae were left on the C... the sensors simply had been made to not see them)
  • thay8472thay8472 Member Posts: 5,970 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    thay8472 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    thay8472 wrote: »
    Is it an alternate timeline though and not a parallel universe created by the ENT-C when it originally travelled forward in time? and my brain just melted.

    I haven't seen the videos but episodes dealing in time travel create new timelines (Parallels, Yesterdays Enterprise, that TOS one with the woman getting run over, Endgame, the Kelvin Timeline etc.).

    Alternate universe are limited to basically the Mirror Universe (its existence is independent of the Prime Universe) though even that universe might have its own alternate timelines (depending on how over-complicated you want to make the cloaking situation)

    That would be a parallel universe, not a new timeline. Although I suppose both terms could be applied ...

    They've never been called either a universe or a timeline until the Kelvin Timeline (as it's official name obviously, in story they called it a Alternate Reality which confuses everything) so you can extrapolate the difference between a universe and a timeline based on that and the Mirror Universe. The former is formed from a change in the Prime Timeline, the latter exists independently.​​

    Reading this ...

    http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Quantum_reality

    How do we know the place the Ent-C ended up wasn't its own universe?
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    thay8472 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    thay8472 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    thay8472 wrote: »
    Is it an alternate timeline though and not a parallel universe created by the ENT-C when it originally travelled forward in time? and my brain just melted.

    I haven't seen the videos but episodes dealing in time travel create new timelines (Parallels, Yesterdays Enterprise, that TOS one with the woman getting run over, Endgame, the Kelvin Timeline etc.).

    Alternate universe are limited to basically the Mirror Universe (its existence is independent of the Prime Universe) though even that universe might have its own alternate timelines (depending on how over-complicated you want to make the cloaking situation)

    That would be a parallel universe, not a new timeline. Although I suppose both terms could be applied ...

    They've never been called either a universe or a timeline until the Kelvin Timeline (as it's official name obviously, in story they called it a Alternate Reality which confuses everything) so you can extrapolate the difference between a universe and a timeline based on that and the Mirror Universe. The former is formed from a change in the Prime Timeline, the latter exists independently.​​

    Reading this ...

    http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Quantum_reality

    How do we know the place the Ent-C ended up wasn't its own universe?

    Because there's nothing to sudgest it was pre-existing.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • hawku001xhawku001x Member Posts: 10,688 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    Haha. It's all Captain Walker's fault. Also, left my comments on the replay video about Data. Basically that he's not in a duplicate body (STO novel "The Needs of the Many") and that he lost the ship after taking it into fluidic space and in 2409 is working at Oxford University (STO short story "Unexpected Honor").
  • thay8472thay8472 Member Posts: 5,970 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    thay8472 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    thay8472 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    thay8472 wrote: »
    Is it an alternate timeline though and not a parallel universe created by the ENT-C when it originally travelled forward in time? and my brain just melted.

    I haven't seen the videos but episodes dealing in time travel create new timelines (Parallels, Yesterdays Enterprise, that TOS one with the woman getting run over, Endgame, the Kelvin Timeline etc.).

    Alternate universe are limited to basically the Mirror Universe (its existence is independent of the Prime Universe) though even that universe might have its own alternate timelines (depending on how over-complicated you want to make the cloaking situation)

    That would be a parallel universe, not a new timeline. Although I suppose both terms could be applied ...

    They've never been called either a universe or a timeline until the Kelvin Timeline (as it's official name obviously, in story they called it a Alternate Reality which confuses everything) so you can extrapolate the difference between a universe and a timeline based on that and the Mirror Universe. The former is formed from a change in the Prime Timeline, the latter exists independently.​​

    Reading this ...

    http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Quantum_reality

    How do we know the place the Ent-C ended up wasn't its own universe?

    Because there's nothing to sudgest it was pre-existing.

    Likewise could be said for the Mirror Universe when it was a single ToS episode.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    thay8472 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    thay8472 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    thay8472 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    thay8472 wrote: »
    Is it an alternate timeline though and not a parallel universe created by the ENT-C when it originally travelled forward in time? and my brain just melted.

    I haven't seen the videos but episodes dealing in time travel create new timelines (Parallels, Yesterdays Enterprise, that TOS one with the woman getting run over, Endgame, the Kelvin Timeline etc.).

    Alternate universe are limited to basically the Mirror Universe (its existence is independent of the Prime Universe) though even that universe might have its own alternate timelines (depending on how over-complicated you want to make the cloaking situation)

    That would be a parallel universe, not a new timeline. Although I suppose both terms could be applied ...

    They've never been called either a universe or a timeline until the Kelvin Timeline (as it's official name obviously, in story they called it a Alternate Reality which confuses everything) so you can extrapolate the difference between a universe and a timeline based on that and the Mirror Universe. The former is formed from a change in the Prime Timeline, the latter exists independently.​​

    Reading this ...

    http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Quantum_reality

    How do we know the place the Ent-C ended up wasn't its own universe?

    Because there's nothing to sudgest it was pre-existing.

    Likewise could be said for the Mirror Universe when it was a single ToS episode.

    It was clear that the Mirror Universe existed prior to the ion storm making it a separate universe. It was not started by the ion storm (which would have made it a timeline). You can tell because there a history, a past that the prime characters react to. In a Mirror Darkly goes even further showing that MU is a separate universe by showing the entire divergent history.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,033 Arc User
    we still have no idea WHERE it actually diverged, though...that intro for IAMD would seem to suggest as far back as the age of sail, if not farther, but the first we actually see any terran iconography is that flag being planted on the moon​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    we still have no idea WHERE it actually diverged, though...that intro for IAMD would seem to suggest as far back as the age of sail, if not farther, but the first we actually see any terran iconography is that flag being planted on the moon​​

    Well that's mostly my point. If we ever find an actual point of divergence then I'd rethink my terminology (because what then would be the difference between the Mirror Universe and the Kelvin Timeline?) but I think the point of showing it going at least back to the 1700s was a way of making it clear to the audience that it wasn't a simple matter of something happening in the warp era wasn't responsible as was the case in, say AGT or Endgame. Those timelines diverge only from the point of divergence and not before and can only be entered at the point they exist whereas the Mirror Universe has a history and can be entered across its timeline (as the Defiant did).
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • sarah2774sarah2774 Member Posts: 227 Arc User

    Maybe Captain Walker's is suppose to make that mistake. T'Nae (present) in a position of power is not suppose to have the reintegrated knowledge yet because we have to mess up(Temporal Ambasaddor) and later clean up the mess(Survivor). Once we clean up then the T'Nae can be intregrated.

    Something along the lines of Kal Dano and the Tox Uthat.
    OPv9m3F.jpg
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