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Holy Nerf to Plasmonic Leech Batman!!

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  • taylor1701dtaylor1701d Member Posts: 3,099 Arc User
    Don't worry, high DPS'er are still going to wipe adv mobs in under 5 secs.
    It's the sub 20k player that will feel the pinch.

    Since these nerfs won't really have a major impact on my game play (since the game will remain SuperEasyMode compared to my gear set even after the changes), I'm kind of excited to free up some console slots on my ship and try new things.
    Goodbye 2-3 Plasma Explosion consoles on every build. I won't miss you. You were too good to pass up. But now the limitations on my builds have been significantly loosened.
    It's a really good thing for established players I think. It'll inject a lot of freshness in ship builds. New possibilities, new combinations. IDIC

    But for lower end players... they will be even more helpless then before. Good luck to them when they PUG, they better hope they have a high DPS'er with them, or PUG's will fail miserably or take 30mins - 1hr.
    This will inevitably lead to Delta Rising levels of complaints on failed PVE queues.
    ^^ This doesn't sound like much of an improvement on the fun factor imo.

    I'm geared enough to weather a 75% reduction in DPS in all honesty. And I like the fact that I'm no longer shoehorned into using a handful of primo consoles. This way, I'll be able to try new consoles & builds, which does sound like great fun to me, but it comes at too great a cost IMHO.

    Nerf the game 75%, I'll be fine. I'm okay with it.
    But don't expect the lower end players who are hurt most to be having a grand ol' time.
    But I certainly will be.
    [img][/img]OD5urLn.jpg
  • ffttfftt Member Posts: 711 Arc User
    Gotta admit, I was a Leech user myself and this change will affect my kdf builds. It was one of the few gimmick ship consoles worth having. It was a 'must have' item by virtue of the fact that it was just plain better than some of the other console options. Comparable to a single tac console with the benefit of adding to shield/engines/aux systems as well. To quote:
    You were too good to pass up.

    I'm not sure what (or if) I'll replace it with
  • nikeixnikeix Member Posts: 3,972 Arc User
    I kinda doubt the lowest tiers of damage dealers were stacking Embassy consoles :smirk:. They won't feel that pinch at all.
  • kiralynkiralyn Member Posts: 1,537 Arc User
    You do realize that today’s best stuff will just be replaced by tomorrows best stuff ...

    Again, this is an MMO. Long experience only makes me want to reply to that with 'duh!'



    ----
    Not terribly effected by this change, since I never used a leech (only owned two, and sold them waaaay back when they were expensive). But then I'm not chasing DPS. /shrug

  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 5,679 Arc User
    I doubt I feel the pinch very much. I only have one leech and hardly use embassy/spire consoles. I do enough damage to contribute to the RAs when I do them and more than enough to go through story content without blowing up. And that's all I need/want.
    Now a LTS and loving it.

    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.

    xp8s7wd.jpg
  • vampeiyrevampeiyre Member Posts: 633 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    nikeix wrote: »
    I kinda doubt the lowest tiers of damage dealers were stacking Embassy consoles :smirk:. They won't feel that pinch at all.

    Exactly. Honestly exploiters, the nerf has already come, you can stop embarrassing yourselves with the deflective "but the poor little guy" BS already. It's done. L2P.
    "I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am."
  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    This probably won't affect drain builds too much as you could be perfectly effective without even having a leech console in the first place.
    When you've got DrainX up to something daft like 500+ then dropping a TR in a group of enemies drains them flat in seconds. Any of the changes in this update won't change that, and leech being less effective for energy weapon attacks won't change that either.
    Now you won't be able to get as much drain from energy weapons perhaps but as a sci boat you've got other methods to make up for that.

    The real damage will be done to the tac ship and cruisers running 8 BA's, 5 Plasma exploders and a leech; those were the ones taking most advantage of the leech console. And that interaction right there is where a huge amount of powercreep came from.
    SulMatuul.png
  • risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,711 Arc User
    Good to know we'll get a free respec. As for the plasmonic leech nerf: it is understandable.

    It doesn't really matter for me personally anyway, with power siphon I'm usually at maximum power levels anyway. And as Spartan said, +24 total power levels is still a big benefit from a single console.

    On draining in general: good to see Subsystem targeting being made more useful. Those innate Science abilities were almost useless with their 2 minute cooldown. Lower ranking enemies are usually dead before you can fully benefit from it so it's best to save it for a boss, and most missions have maybe one or two end bosses (if any at all) where it's useful to use it. This change, combined with the effect that all weapons will temporarily have a chance to disable, is therefore a good one.
  • sunfranckssunfrancks Member Posts: 3,925 Arc User
    I guess I'll gain a console slot on my characters when this goes live...
    Fed: Eng Lib Borg (Five) Tac Andorian (Shen) Sci Alien/Klingon (Maelrock) KDF:Tac Romulan KDF (Sasha) Tac Klingon (K'dopis)
    Founder, member and former leader to Pride Of The Federation Fleet.
    What I feel after I hear about every decision made since Andre "Mobile Games Generalisimo" Emerson arrived...
    3oz8xC9gn8Fh4DK9Q4.gif





  • shredder75shredder75 Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    sunfrancks wrote: »
    I guess I'll gain a console slot on my characters when this goes live...

    Was thinking that too. With the dramatic reduction to TBR, I might just replace it with Energy Siphon. I still have SVV, TB and GW. Maybe I'll replace it with the Protomatter console or something similar, since I mostly run as a tank.

    As for the plasma consoles, I'm already looking at the R&D consoles for epg/drain, and the Sig/Nullifier from the Embassy for Threat and added heals since the cooldown has been removed. Borg set in console form anyone?

    I'm wondering if Active Hull Hardening bypasses DR now.
  • daviesdaviesdaviesdavies Member Posts: 277 Arc User
    The only thing that really gets balanced is the company's balance sheets.
    As players we are all ended up somewhere between the "E" and "G"
    Mzd8i1c.gif
  • themadprofessor#9835 themadprofessor Member Posts: 1,203 Arc User
    Oh good... Plasmonic Leech will no longer be the American Express of STO (never leave port without it).
    Space Barbie Extraordinaire. Got a question about Space Barbie? Just ask.

    Things I want in STO:

    1) More character customization options such as more clothing options, letting the toon complexion affect the entire body, not just the head. Also a true RGB color picker applied to all costume and appearance options, which would allow for true appearance customization and homogenous colors instead of "this same exact color looks vastly different on two different pieces."
    2) Bridge customization, not bridge packs. Let us pick a general layout and adjust the color palette, console appearance, and chair types, as well as more ready room layout options.
    3) Customizable ground weapons, i.e. The aesthetic look of phaser dual pistols but they shoot antiproton bolts. For obvious reasons this would only apply to standard ground weapons.
    4) For the love of Q please revamp Plasma Ground Weapons. They look like demented Supersoakers right now.
    5) True Vanity Impulse and Deflector effects similar to Vanity Shields.
    6) A greater payout for hitting T6 Reputations. Currently it takes more time and resources to get from T5 to T6 than it does to get from nothing to T5. Make that grind really pay out at the end.
    7) Mirrorverse Refugee event similar to AoY/Delta/Gamma, complete with new Mirrorverse recruits for all factions.
    8) Independent Faction, because yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me!
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,818 Arc User
    Leech still seems to be a top tier console even with the nerf.
  • bossheisenbergbossheisenberg Member Posts: 602 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    angrytarg wrote: »
    The change makes sense but does hit drain builds harder than DPS tacs who don't really have to rely on PL power due to all the other stuff they can have. This change however, plus the reduction in firing cycle haste for turrets (3->5s) severly hits drain turret builds, though - and I would assume those were hardly a "problem" before.​​

    Wait turrets are getting nerfed???
  • ffttfftt Member Posts: 711 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    The change makes sense but does hit drain builds harder than DPS tacs who don't really have to rely on PL power due to all the other stuff they can have. This change however, plus the reduction in firing cycle haste for turrets (3->5s) severly hits drain turret builds, though - and I would assume those were hardly a "problem" before.​​

    Wait turrets are getting nerfed???

    Yuppers. Cannon fire rates reduced, energy usage similar to beams in that all weapons are now used instead of skipping the first, as well as rapid fire and scatter volley being modified.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 15,352 Arc User
    echatty wrote: »
    I doubt I feel the pinch very much. I only have one leech and hardly use embassy/spire consoles. I do enough damage to contribute to the RAs when I do them and more than enough to go through story content without blowing up. And that's all I need/want.

    This.

    My drain build might need a little rework but otherwise I never bothered with the likes of BFAW and I don't use plasma exploders anymore. So impact = minimal.
  • taylor1701dtaylor1701d Member Posts: 3,099 Arc User
    nikeix wrote: »
    I kinda doubt the lowest tiers of damage dealers were stacking Embassy consoles :smirk:. They won't feel that pinch at all.

    You're right, but from what I've heard last night, it looks to be pretty severe.
    Everything that follows is supposedly getting hit;

    Temporal+Strat+Intel spec
    OSS
    Torp abilities
    Leech
    Drains
    Crowd Control Holds
    Subsystem power stacking via leetch/supremacy/aux2batt/Siphon
    Subsystem weapon damage bonus
    Go Down Fighting/Alpha and Traits involving their use
    Embassy consoles
    Reseach Console
    Fire at Will
    Feedback pulse
    Weapons Haste

    This is not even a comprehensive list, its only what I heard last night.

    There's going to be a lot of angry space barbies running around when this goes live. If DPS'er are mad, well, what can I say, that anger is probably misplaced. They'll still be able to complete queues in relatively the same amount of time with a little juggling of gear.

    While you or I may think everything on that list is an appropriate target (I honestly do), don't underestimate how many bad players rely on at least 1 or 2 of those gimmicks to get by.

    I think it's going to turn off a lot newer/casual players imho.
    I'll enjoy the change but they won't.
    They'll leave.

    I can't see how this balance pass is going to make things magically more fun for the player in general. I just don't see it.
    Players will still get afk'd.
    Content will still be completed in minutes when there's better players on the team.
    Content will still fail (and more often) for PUGs in general.
    Content will suddenly become 20% more difficult for the general population across the board - if not more.

    So I can't predict the future I might be wrong. But you can bet money on seeing a forum *&^%storm the likes we haven't seen since DR. Though not as severe since half the population left after DR.

    Better Brace for Impact.
    (Not that we Hotshot types care about the common player having a good time ;) )
    [img][/img]OD5urLn.jpg
  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 7,716 Arc User
    nikeix wrote: »
    I kinda doubt the lowest tiers of damage dealers were stacking Embassy consoles :smirk:. They won't feel that pinch at all.

    You're right, but from what I've heard last night, it looks to be pretty severe.
    Everything that follows is supposedly getting hit;

    Temporal+Strat+Intel spec
    OSS
    Torp abilities
    Leech
    Drains
    Crowd Control Holds
    Subsystem power stacking via leetch/supremacy/aux2batt/Siphon
    Subsystem weapon damage bonus
    Go Down Fighting/Alpha and Traits involving their use
    Embassy consoles
    Reseach Console
    Fire at Will
    Feedback pulse
    Weapons Haste

    This is not even a comprehensive list, its only what I heard last night.

    There's going to be a lot of angry space barbies running around when this goes live. If DPS'er are mad, well, what can I say, that anger is probably misplaced. They'll still be able to complete queues in relatively the same amount of time with a little juggling of gear.

    While you or I may think everything on that list is an appropriate target (I honestly do), don't underestimate how many bad players rely on at least 1 or 2 of those gimmicks to get by.

    I think it's going to turn off a lot newer/casual players imho.
    I'll enjoy the change but they won't.
    They'll leave.

    I can't see how this balance pass is going to make things magically more fun for the player in general. I just don't see it.

    Players will still get afk'd.
    Content will still be completed in minutes when there's better players on the team.
    Content will still fail (and more often) for PUGs in general.
    Content will suddenly become 20% more difficult for the general population across the board - if not more.

    So I can't predict the future I might be wrong. But you can bet money on seeing a forum *&^%storm the likes we haven't seen since DR. Though not as severe since half the population left after DR.

    Better Brace for Impact.
    (Not that we Hotshot types care about the common player having a good time ;) )

    Personally i find the game less interesting as content grows easier. An advanced queue should feel like an advanced queue and an elite queue should test your skills to their limit. How long has it been since either was true?

    When did the DPS parsers first record their 60k, or their 100k or 200k? Things have gotten seriously out of control and i welcome the (most likely temporary) challenge the balance pass will provide.
    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
  • sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,022 Arc User
    I'll still run the leech on most of my characters. My first character may let it go to be able to slot the Lukari polaron console. So I'd view that as a +

    forget about the leech though, the embassy plasma nerf is scorched earth. I already golded 3 replacements for those today.
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    Here the little detail that was left out in patch notes by accident I’m sure.
    Plasmonic Leech on Tribble gives a self buff of +6 power to all subsystems, for a total of +24 power. That is close to 5 times the power level increase a MK XIV Gold +Power console gives. That is still an absurd disparity. The fact that players are stacking [Drain] consoles solely to buff their own power levels is also not how any of this should be working. Drain Expertise is intended to buff your ability to debuff your enemies, and your ability to resist that same set of debuffs. The current state of using Leech and then stacking Drain Expertise to buff your power levels is very far outside of what the design intent of Drain Expertise is, and Flow Capacitors before that.

    The changes is hurting but it’s not as if DPSer would still stack that much drain x for the leech anyway nowadays. It’s also not the only way of power management around.

    I think the change hurts much more those who put drain stuff from sci to work.

    Whatever, when it comes to nerfs we are all equal, aren’t we?

    While in a vacuum that explanation is pretty solid, when I compare the way debuffs and crowd control works in the game, I'm less than thrilled at the overall context of Spartan's explanation.

    What I mean is, while I agree that the use of the leech was really outside the design intent of the console, I'm still not that thrilled with the state of drain, debuff, and CC overall in STO because after this balance pass it still won't be a viable/competitive alternative to focusing solely on damage.

    So the meta will finally shift almost fully away from the leech, which is fine. But yeah, Crowd Control (which is a viable archetype in other RPGs) isn't really that strong in STO when placed in context with, say, DPS.

    So, meh. Whatever. Seems like this is just a nerf to nerf a popular console. Because it survived its last nerf from the same devs, who didn't really go on record saying all this about it just last year. If I cared more, I guess I'd be upset?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • xclusiv11xclusiv11 Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    Sorry but this will not be received well on console... console version if we receive the patch as is will be hit infinitely harder then pc for a few reasons...

    -younger game, pc variant is a 5+ mature game state with massive overages of dil available in game and multiple avenues to have received tech upgrades, aka easy to switch
    -PUG runs on console are still heavily dependent on terrible players who haven't optimized at all and need the "carry" - remove the ability for most to carry and not have the same reserves of items/ships/upgrades to switch to a "new" build leads to less if no pugs outside of crystalline (you'd be surprised to know that on multiple pug occasions people are dying multiple times)
    -no dps calculating tools/mods... for a game that is already notorious for not sharing information, none of it is attainable in game and requires forum reading, most console players will not ever be here
    -console typically won't reach the same dps totals as pc due to radial menus, non key binds, macros , mods - whatever you want to call it... activating all the synergy skills takes seconds longer and takes you out of view/control of ship... all in all, stacking buffs is clunky and time expensive

    I've been posting a bit recently because again I understand the need for this but srsly, console was sold a bill of goods for 9 months while all these changes were definitely in the works with no forewarning whatsoever. We sat with bugs for months, still played, built up ships/captains based on current game balance (used up most if not all resources for many people) and have basically a new game dropped on us... to say I'm not happy is an understatement...

    Will I survive this, of course, but it dampens my desire to invest large amounts of time or money because what's next? Nerfing the t6 variants of ships to pave way for t7s so new power creep can be sold again? Make harder content/new content like every other MMO that wants to sell new power creep... not nerf the old stuff into oblivion... sorry for the wall of text
  • dragnridrdragnridr Member Posts: 671 Arc User
    Plasmonic Leech on Tribble gives a self buff of +6 power to all subsystems, for a total of +24 power. That is close to 5 times the power level increase a MK XIV Gold +Power console gives. That is still an absurd disparity. The fact that players are stacking [Drain] consoles solely to buff their own power levels is also not how any of this should be working. Drain Expertise is intended to buff your ability to debuff your enemies, and your ability to resist that same set of debuffs. The current state of using Leech and then stacking Drain Expertise to buff your power levels is very far outside of what the design intent of Drain Expertise is, and Flow Capacitors before that.

    Yet in the Blog that the devs posted they said that there was NO WRONG OR RIGHT choice, but when the players do make a choice on how to build their ships, they are doing it wrong.......No. They are playing the game they way THEY want to play it. They are CHOOSING to stack consoles to do what THEY want. And now since these absurd nerfs are going out, the devs are saying we, the players, are making wrong choices. If these consoles were not meant to be stacked together for massive drain builds to boost their own power levels, then why was it even allowed in the first place?

    Last time these types of blanket nerfs went out, my entire build I worked so hard on working on got destroyed by the skill revamp. Now they want me to accept yet another blanket nerf that destroys yet another build. Really, the devs aren't testing the stuff they bring out like they should. Instead of trying to wreck things people have been working on, How about listening to the players for once.

    After the nerfs go out on holodeck, I may just grab a big bag of popcorn and a beer and watch loads of players rage quit.

  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    kiralyn wrote: »
    You do realize that today’s best stuff will just be replaced by tomorrows best stuff ...
    Again, this is an MMO. Long experience only makes me want to reply to that with 'duh!'

    ----
    Not terribly effected by this change, since I never used a leech (only owned two, and sold them waaaay back when they were expensive). But then I'm not chasing DPS. /shrug
    Especially since Bort warned us it would happen...
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 15,352 Arc User
    dragnridr wrote: »
    Plasmonic Leech on Tribble gives a self buff of +6 power to all subsystems, for a total of +24 power. That is close to 5 times the power level increase a MK XIV Gold +Power console gives. That is still an absurd disparity. The fact that players are stacking [Drain] consoles solely to buff their own power levels is also not how any of this should be working. Drain Expertise is intended to buff your ability to debuff your enemies, and your ability to resist that same set of debuffs. The current state of using Leech and then stacking Drain Expertise to buff your power levels is very far outside of what the design intent of Drain Expertise is, and Flow Capacitors before that.

    Yet in the Blog that the devs posted they said that there was NO WRONG OR RIGHT choice, but when the players do make a choice on how to build their ships, they are doing it wrong.......No. They are playing the game they way THEY want to play it. They are CHOOSING to stack consoles to do what THEY want. And now since these absurd nerfs are going out, the devs are saying we, the players, are making wrong choices. If these consoles were not meant to be stacked together for massive drain builds to boost their own power levels, then why was it even allowed in the first place?

    Last time these types of blanket nerfs went out, my entire build I worked so hard on working on got destroyed by the skill revamp. Now they want me to accept yet another blanket nerf that destroys yet another build. Really, the devs aren't testing the stuff they bring out like they should. Instead of trying to wreck things people have been working on, How about listening to the players for once.

    After the nerfs go out on holodeck, I may just grab a big bag of popcorn and a beer and watch loads of players rage quit.

    They did listen to the players, and they've been watching. That's why they're making these changes.
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,210 Arc User
    dragnridr wrote: »

    Yet in the Blog that the devs posted they said that there was NO WRONG OR RIGHT choice, but when the players do make a choice on how to build their ships, they are doing it wrong.......No. They are playing the game they way THEY want to play it. They are CHOOSING to stack consoles to do what THEY want. And now since these absurd nerfs are going out, the devs are saying we, the players, are making wrong choices. If these consoles were not meant to be stacked together for massive drain builds to boost their own power levels, then why was it even allowed in the first place?

    Last time these types of blanket nerfs went out, my entire build I worked so hard on working on got destroyed by the skill revamp. Now they want me to accept yet another blanket nerf that destroys yet another build. Really, the devs aren't testing the stuff they bring out like they should. Instead of trying to wreck things people have been working on, How about listening to the players for once.

    After the nerfs go out on holodeck, I may just grab a big bag of popcorn and a beer and watch loads of players rage quit.


    Try not to worry that much ok? I know that making a few items obsolete or changing the meta hurts those who cared about their performance. We do what we always do and adapt.

    Lol for me it’s getting tiresome a bit after 5 years but a few rearrangements here and there and nothing will really change. I make 127k instead of 187k? Thats the deal for a season before everthing is the same again.

    Players who care will still be good and baddies will still be bad. If you are one of those who care you have already won in this easy game. :)
    animated.gif
    Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • sarah2774sarah2774 Member Posts: 227 Arc User
    nikeix wrote: »
    I kinda doubt the lowest tiers of damage dealers were stacking Embassy consoles :smirk:. They won't feel that pinch at all.

    You're right, but from what I've heard last night, it looks to be pretty severe.
    Everything that follows is supposedly getting hit;

    Temporal+Strat+Intel spec
    OSS
    Torp abilities
    Leech
    Drains
    Crowd Control Holds
    Subsystem power stacking via leetch/supremacy/aux2batt/Siphon
    Subsystem weapon damage bonus
    Go Down Fighting/Alpha and Traits involving their use
    Embassy consoles
    Reseach Console
    Fire at Will
    Feedback pulse
    Weapons Haste

    This is not even a comprehensive list, its only what I heard last night.

    There's going to be a lot of angry space barbies running around when this goes live. If DPS'er are mad, well, what can I say, that anger is probably misplaced. They'll still be able to complete queues in relatively the same amount of time with a little juggling of gear.

    While you or I may think everything on that list is an appropriate target (I honestly do), don't underestimate how many bad players rely on at least 1 or 2 of those gimmicks to get by.

    I think it's going to turn off a lot newer/casual players imho.
    I'll enjoy the change but they won't.
    They'll leave.

    I can't see how this balance pass is going to make things magically more fun for the player in general. I just don't see it.
    Players will still get afk'd.
    Content will still be completed in minutes when there's better players on the team.
    Content will still fail (and more often) for PUGs in general.
    Content will suddenly become 20% more difficult for the general population across the board - if not more.

    So I can't predict the future I might be wrong. But you can bet money on seeing a forum *&^%storm the likes we haven't seen since DR. Though not as severe since half the population left after DR.

    Better Brace for Impact.
    (Not that we Hotshot types care about the common player having a good time ;) )

    This is the result of some players keep on asking for nerf and whine. Better to powerup than nerf.
    OPv9m3F.jpg
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    Here's a fun question for you: why nerf PlasExp? Simple, in some builds, the plasma explosions did more damage than the weapons did.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • alexraptorralexraptorr Member Posts: 1,192 Arc User
    If they are going to nerf Leech I would very much appreciate if they nix the power penalty that Romulan ships suffer. *sigh*
    "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
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