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Auto activation of skills for PC?

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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    wendysue53 wrote: »
    To sum up:

    If you want to automate your powers, then do so.
    You already have those options in the game, if you are PC.
    Not doing so, means:
    1. You don't know how (or)
    2. You are too lazy to try.
    Once you get past those two scenerios, you'll understand the problems with automatic automation of skills, etc., since you'll find you can't really do anything, unless you can 'mash buttons' when you want to.

    If you are console? To bad... I'm not even going there.
    I have automated my powers for years and the only problems I've ever found with it are the lack of official documentation, lack of UI support and being required to constantly tap a button to keep it going.

    If we were on console, we would already have the feature we're asking for.

    BTW, why do you keep up with this even though you still have nothing to say but "other players are lazy."
  • cronoprimecronoprime Member Posts: 31 Arc User
    alduin303 wrote: »
    I've played both the console and pc versions and to be honest I am somewhat annoyed at the PC version's lack of auto activation. I find it annoying having to split my focus between having fun and manually activating endless amounts of skills and abilities.. will they ever put this feature into the PC version? I think it's be a lot easier for people. especially new players

    Perhaps you should have been a touch more clear because the abilities don't have the option to just "auto-activated" but to "
    activate under specific conditions.

    For example, you can set Science Team to go off at certain shield levels, or you can have it go off to cleanse a shield debuff. BUT you can have only ONE condition set. If you have it set to "activate at 50% shields" it won't go off to clear a debuff, or vice versa.

    Or with something like Tachyon beam you can have it be activated "as often as possible", or "when target shields are greater than 50 percent", or "activate only against Battleship type targets"

    And even if you set a condition, you can still activate manually if the ability isn't on cooldown. Some abilities don't have conditionals at all. Examples being the Aeroshuttle, Science Fleet, or the Energy Weapon Entanglement of the Quantum Phase set.

    And finally, you can choose to NOT use any conditions at all and activate all abilities manually. What the system does is let me focus on movement and the abilities that "I" want to focus on, leaving the rest to my supposedly "professional" bridge crew. The system isn't perfect, but it DOES make the PS4 version more "fun" than the PC version. Yes, I have played the PC version under WINE...I started playing after the game went F2P in 2012.
    I found the auto activation options to be somewhat limited in terms of choice on the console version. I remember wishing I could manually set the auto activate parameters.

    Ditto. It would nice to be able to do something like:

    Science Team: activate when shields drop to 50 percent OR when hit by a debuff.

    For example, if entering combat will trigger some team wide damage buff, that now greys out my own team-wide buff,

    Again, I'm not sure how such automation works,

    That's not how it works. Haven't any of you seen any video of the console versions in action?
    lathais wrote: »
    I don't know that it's really dumbing it down. It sounds more like what people are suggesting is something very similar to the Gambit System in FFXII.

    It IS similar to FFXII's Gambits though not quite as flexible. However, most of the PC STO players are rather partisan towards the PC as a platform (especially those outside of the US) and have never played FFXII. So they don't know how Gambits work.
    Would be pretty neat I think, though obviously instead of calling it Gambit System it could be called "Standing Orders." Makes total sense too.

    Yes, that was also mentioned when Cryptic first described the system. Bridge officers are professionals, a captain shouldn't have to micro-manage them.
    nikeix wrote: »

    It would also offset some issue of simply bad UI presentation. One of the possible settings described when the console UI was being revealed was allowing you to set your condition cleanses to automatically fire if you received the relevant condition type and the ability wasn't already on cooldown.

    Yep. I have batteries set for that.
    Which would be brilliant considering the game is terrible at conveying status information with a single bloated buff and debuff bar bar that jumps and twitches like a dying fish because everything is an incredibly short duration effect on a dynamic stack.

    We don't have that twitchy buff/debuff bar on console, at all.


  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    I'm a bit of in the middle in all this. On one hand, I can see where it can be beneficial, on the other I can see how it can all go wrong.

    An example given earlier in the thread is when the Borg is draining your shields. You'd want to wait for them to finish draining rather than replenishing your shields right away. In this case, a conditional heal set to activate at any shield percentage other than 0% would be bad. Also, allowing for the possibility for skills to be fired off on CD or on target acquisition can have negative team effects (like an errant control ability like GW, TBR and Photonic Shockwave). Now you could say, players shouldn't auto-fire those abilities, but I'm pretty sure someone who doesn't know better will. You can set certain "rules" for every skill, but that would complicate things (lack of consistency).

    While I am not sure, but automation of skill activations complete with conditional activations can also pave the way for easier botting.

    I see this as (slightly) beneficial for players that are knowledgeable enough to play in advanced difficulty without dragging down a team in the game. These players would already have a general idea on what skills should be chained, and what skills should be manually set. The players that play in the Elite difficulties would benefit less from such a system because they usually prefer to time their buffs properly (many don't chain heals as an example, neither do they heal at times until they reach 0 HP).

    Now for the lower end of the spectrum (players who are hardly even able to cope in normal), the system may prove to be confusing (if different rules are applied to each skill) or the system may block their advancement by giving them a crutch to lean on, never learning the advanced ways one can take control of his ship. Then you'll start getting more comments about x NPC being too powerful or y STF being too difficult simply because they aren't making the best use of their skills.

    On a console with its limited number of buttons, the system makes sense. In the PC, the current system gives the most flexibility because it gives you total control of your ship.

    I don't mind if they apply such a system on PC, though I am leaning slightly against it because of the possibility of badly spammed abilities hindering a run. Me personally, I probably won't use it. I currently do not even use keybinds or any macro (nor do I know how to make one) and I think I am doing just fine. Getting into a good rhythm and (almost) perfectly timing stuff to press is a big contributor to fun in this game for me. I think if I ever were to use automation, the game would become boring real fast for me.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    cronoprime wrote: »
    alduin303 wrote: »
    I've played both the console and pc versions and to be honest I am somewhat annoyed at the PC version's lack of auto activation. I find it annoying having to split my focus between having fun and manually activating endless amounts of skills and abilities.. will they ever put this feature into the PC version? I think it's be a lot easier for people. especially new players

    Perhaps you should have been a touch more clear because the abilities don't have the option to just "auto-activated" but to "
    activate under specific conditions.

    For example, you can set Science Team to go off at certain shield levels, or you can have it go off to cleanse a shield debuff. BUT you can have only ONE condition set. If you have it set to "activate at 50% shields" it won't go off to clear a debuff, or vice versa.

    Or with something like Tachyon beam you can have it be activated "as often as possible", or "when target shields are greater than 50 percent", or "activate only against Battleship type targets"

    And even if you set a condition, you can still activate manually if the ability isn't on cooldown. Some abilities don't have conditionals at all. Examples being the Aeroshuttle, Science Fleet, or the Energy Weapon Entanglement of the Quantum Phase set.

    And finally, you can choose to NOT use any conditions at all and activate all abilities manually. What the system does is let me focus on movement and the abilities that "I" want to focus on, leaving the rest to my supposedly "professional" bridge crew. The system isn't perfect, but it DOES make the PS4 version more "fun" than the PC version. Yes, I have played the PC version under WINE...I started playing after the game went F2P in 2012.
    Looks pretty good. Here's waiting for them to port that over to the PC.
  • bobbydazlersbobbydazlers Member Posts: 4,534 Arc User
    But there are pros.

    Most people don't use "optimal" timings. They barely use the powers they have in the first place. An easy to use interface to set up some trigggers once will achieve a lot more than the current keybind system or manual click system. It also gives people a chance to think about what triggers make sense.

    You can still choose not to use the auto-triggers, but there will be pleny that will fare better with them, without increasing their workload beyond what they are willing to do.
    I'm not for or against OPs idea since as I said I don't know how it is on consoles and am also not interested in consoles, but if PC players currently neglect or fail to use the existing tray activations, key binds, and manual toggles, making that somehow automated will impact those of us who do opt to use powers to match or anticipate various scenarios.

    For example, if entering combat will trigger some team wide damage buff, that now greys out my own team-wide buff, harming every team member's performance for every stray little enemy probe that triggers red alert. If players neglect powers and timings, I'd rather them suffer for it and see first-hand a reason to improve, as opposed to automating it and surely breaking it for others and their own team.

    Again, I'm not sure how such automation works, so feel free to correct my worry against its use on PCs where we have keyboards, mice, joysticks at our disposal to control everything quite well (nevermind the powers activation failure bug).

    buffs that effect other players could easily be made exempt from auto trigger in team based missions so more experienced players can choose to activate them at the best time, surely this would be better then having some noob or other player who doesn't understand the buffs triggering them at what you consider to be the wrong time simply because like me they don't really know what works best when and just randomly click things and hope they are doing something useful.
    if it come to it auto-trigger could be disabled entirely in team missions if it might cause problems for other players but I don't see what anyone has against players having the auto-trigger option in solo missions as it effects no one other then the player who uses it.

    When I think about everything we've been through together,

    maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,

     and if that journey takes a little longer,

    so we can do something we all believe in,

     I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.

  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    [...]
    Ay, therein lies the rub! Because activation of abilities is not meant to be a 'tedious repletion [repetition?] of basic tasks.' Rather, their activation is supposed to require proper timing, by the player, who understands what to activate when.

    When playing, how do you time your "emergency power to x" abilities? Are you saying you do not (basically) press them whenever possible?

    I personally try to time them with other abilities, for example ep2w right before clicking BFAW or BO
    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
    eaY7Xxu.png
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    But there are pros.

    Most people don't use "optimal" timings. They barely use the powers they have in the first place. An easy to use interface to set up some trigggers once will achieve a lot more than the current keybind system or manual click system. It also gives people a chance to think about what triggers make sense.

    You can still choose not to use the auto-triggers, but there will be pleny that will fare better with them, without increasing their workload beyond what they are willing to do.
    I'm not for or against OPs idea since as I said I don't know how it is on consoles and am also not interested in consoles, but if PC players currently neglect or fail to use the existing tray activations, key binds, and manual toggles, making that somehow automated will impact those of us who do opt to use powers to match or anticipate various scenarios.

    For example, if entering combat will trigger some team wide damage buff, that now greys out my own team-wide buff, harming every team member's performance for every stray little enemy probe that triggers red alert. If players neglect powers and timings, I'd rather them suffer for it and see first-hand a reason to improve, as opposed to automating it and surely breaking it for others and their own team.

    Again, I'm not sure how such automation works, so feel free to correct my worry against its use on PCs where we have keyboards, mice, joysticks at our disposal to control everything quite well (nevermind the powers activation failure bug).

    buffs that effect other players could easily be made exempt from auto trigger in team based missions so more experienced players can choose to activate them at the best time, surely this would be better then having some noob or other player who doesn't understand the buffs triggering them at what you consider to be the wrong time simply because like me they don't really know what works best when and just randomly click things and hope they are doing something useful.
    if it come to it auto-trigger could be disabled entirely in team missions if it might cause problems for other players but I don't see what anyone has against players having the auto-trigger option in solo missions as it effects no one other then the player who uses it.
    Because "some noob" randomly clicking them manually is of course better than having them on autofire, right? :p

    Team buffs being greyed out while active is a convenience, keeping you from wasting a casting on a buff that is already up. It doesn't harm the team's performance, it improves it. But if it comes to it that convenience can be withdrawn and the elitists be allowed to waste their buffs on simultaneous castings if that's so important for them.

    Or perhaps the ability to cast buffs that are already up should be an option, because the rest of us may want to keep that convenience.

    But auto-trigger can't be disabled. Not without removing keybinds.
  • bobbydazlersbobbydazlers Member Posts: 4,534 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    warpangel wrote: »
    But there are pros.

    Most people don't use "optimal" timings. They barely use the powers they have in the first place. An easy to use interface to set up some trigggers once will achieve a lot more than the current keybind system or manual click system. It also gives people a chance to think about what triggers make sense.

    You can still choose not to use the auto-triggers, but there will be pleny that will fare better with them, without increasing their workload beyond what they are willing to do.
    I'm not for or against OPs idea since as I said I don't know how it is on consoles and am also not interested in consoles, but if PC players currently neglect or fail to use the existing tray activations, key binds, and manual toggles, making that somehow automated will impact those of us who do opt to use powers to match or anticipate various scenarios.

    For example, if entering combat will trigger some team wide damage buff, that now greys out my own team-wide buff, harming every team member's performance for every stray little enemy probe that triggers red alert. If players neglect powers and timings, I'd rather them suffer for it and see first-hand a reason to improve, as opposed to automating it and surely breaking it for others and their own team.

    Again, I'm not sure how such automation works, so feel free to correct my worry against its use on PCs where we have keyboards, mice, joysticks at our disposal to control everything quite well (nevermind the powers activation failure bug).

    buffs that effect other players could easily be made exempt from auto trigger in team based missions so more experienced players can choose to activate them at the best time, surely this would be better then having some noob or other player who doesn't understand the buffs triggering them at what you consider to be the wrong time simply because like me they don't really know what works best when and just randomly click things and hope they are doing something useful.
    if it come to it auto-trigger could be disabled entirely in team missions if it might cause problems for other players but I don't see what anyone has against players having the auto-trigger option in solo missions as it effects no one other then the player who uses it.
    Because "some noob" randomly clicking them manually is of course better than having them on autofire, right? :p

    Team buffs being greyed out while active is a convenience, keeping you from wasting a casting on a buff that is already up. It doesn't harm the team's performance, it improves it. But if it comes to it that convenience can be withdrawn and the elitists be allowed to waste their buffs on simultaneous castings if that's so important for them.

    Or perhaps the ability to cast buffs that are already up should be an option, because the rest of us may want to keep that convenience.

    But auto-trigger can't be disabled. Not without removing keybinds.

    since there is no auto-trigger how do you know it cannot be disabled without removing keybinds.
    as I see it keybinds would be unaffected by auto-trigger as the auto-trigger function would be calling on the skill by name and not the keybinds that players use to activate them as players all have their skills arranged differently it would be impossible to implement an auto-trigger that functions correctly if the thing worked on keybinds rather then the skills themselves.
    indeed players who have auto-trigger active would be still able to call a skill themselves if they wished to do so and providing the skill was not on cooldown.
    perhaps the ability to cast buffs that are already up should be an option and they should indeed stack in duration in team missions.

    but regardless of how cryptic choose to implement auto-trigger in regards to team missions there is no reasons to not have it as an option in solo missions for players who want to use it and would benefit greatly from its inclusion.

    When I think about everything we've been through together,

    maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,

     and if that journey takes a little longer,

    so we can do something we all believe in,

     I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.

  • wendysue53wendysue53 Member Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    wendysue53 wrote: »
    To sum up:

    If you want to automate your powers, then do so.
    You already have those options in the game, if you are PC.
    Not doing so, means:
    1. You don't know how (or)
    2. You are too lazy to try.
    Once you get past those two scenerios, you'll understand the problems with automatic automation of skills, etc., since you'll find you can't really do anything, unless you can 'mash buttons' when you want to.

    If you are console? To bad... I'm not even going there.
    I have automated my powers for years and the only problems I've ever found with it are the lack of official documentation, lack of UI support and being required to constantly tap a button to keep it going.

    If we were on console, we would already have the feature we're asking for.

    BTW, why do you keep up with this even though you still have nothing to say but "other players are lazy."

    Don't remember calling anyone lazy. Ever.
    Said not doing it had two possible causes. Laziness might be one of those.
    and am pretty sure what you wrote is just a rewording of what I put, so we're in agreement on it in any case.
    It wasn't directed at Vets, but at those who want something that is already in the game.
    Sure, Documentation sucks, but that's typical with STO. *shrug*
    Just to repeat myself, I've not called anyone lazy. Being lazy and being called lazy are two different things.
    Have noticed, however, that you do like to target my posts, then just rewrite the same things I've already said.
    So I left some out. whoop.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    But there are pros.

    Most people don't use "optimal" timings. They barely use the powers they have in the first place. An easy to use interface to set up some trigggers once will achieve a lot more than the current keybind system or manual click system. It also gives people a chance to think about what triggers make sense.

    You can still choose not to use the auto-triggers, but there will be pleny that will fare better with them, without increasing their workload beyond what they are willing to do.
    I'm not for or against OPs idea since as I said I don't know how it is on consoles and am also not interested in consoles, but if PC players currently neglect or fail to use the existing tray activations, key binds, and manual toggles, making that somehow automated will impact those of us who do opt to use powers to match or anticipate various scenarios.

    For example, if entering combat will trigger some team wide damage buff, that now greys out my own team-wide buff, harming every team member's performance for every stray little enemy probe that triggers red alert. If players neglect powers and timings, I'd rather them suffer for it and see first-hand a reason to improve, as opposed to automating it and surely breaking it for others and their own team.

    Again, I'm not sure how such automation works, so feel free to correct my worry against its use on PCs where we have keyboards, mice, joysticks at our disposal to control everything quite well (nevermind the powers activation failure bug).

    buffs that effect other players could easily be made exempt from auto trigger in team based missions so more experienced players can choose to activate them at the best time, surely this would be better then having some noob or other player who doesn't understand the buffs triggering them at what you consider to be the wrong time simply because like me they don't really know what works best when and just randomly click things and hope they are doing something useful.
    if it come to it auto-trigger could be disabled entirely in team missions if it might cause problems for other players but I don't see what anyone has against players having the auto-trigger option in solo missions as it effects no one other then the player who uses it.
    Because "some noob" randomly clicking them manually is of course better than having them on autofire, right? :p

    Team buffs being greyed out while active is a convenience, keeping you from wasting a casting on a buff that is already up. It doesn't harm the team's performance, it improves it. But if it comes to it that convenience can be withdrawn and the elitists be allowed to waste their buffs on simultaneous castings if that's so important for them.

    Or perhaps the ability to cast buffs that are already up should be an option, because the rest of us may want to keep that convenience.

    But auto-trigger can't be disabled. Not without removing keybinds.

    since there is no auto-trigger how do you know it cannot be disabled without removing keybinds.
    I was referring to the fact that keybinds can be used for automation. Thus it's not possible to disable people's ability to automate their powers without disabling keybinds.
    wendysue53 wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    wendysue53 wrote: »
    To sum up:

    If you want to automate your powers, then do so.
    You already have those options in the game, if you are PC.
    Not doing so, means:
    1. You don't know how (or)
    2. You are too lazy to try.
    Once you get past those two scenerios, you'll understand the problems with automatic automation of skills, etc., since you'll find you can't really do anything, unless you can 'mash buttons' when you want to.

    If you are console? To bad... I'm not even going there.
    I have automated my powers for years and the only problems I've ever found with it are the lack of official documentation, lack of UI support and being required to constantly tap a button to keep it going.

    If we were on console, we would already have the feature we're asking for.

    BTW, why do you keep up with this even though you still have nothing to say but "other players are lazy."

    Don't remember calling anyone lazy. Ever.
    Said not doing it had two possible causes. Laziness might be one of those.
    and am pretty sure what you wrote is just a rewording of what I put, so we're in agreement on it in any case.
    It wasn't directed at Vets, but at those who want something that is already in the game.
    Sure, Documentation sucks, but that's typical with STO. *shrug*
    Just to repeat myself, I've not called anyone lazy. Being lazy and being called lazy are two different things.
    Have noticed, however, that you do like to target my posts, then just rewrite the same things I've already said.
    So I left some out. whoop.
    What I said was most definitely not a rewording of what you said, but the complete opposite. You suggested there are problems with automation, which I disagreed with. Since you didn't actually say what those problems are supposed to be, I couldn't say anything more specific about it.

    That keybinds can, with third-party documentation and a button to mash, be used to replicate basic always-on automation is not an argument against porting the much better and more tactical system back from the console version.
  • bobbydazlersbobbydazlers Member Posts: 4,534 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    warpangel wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    But there are pros.

    Most people don't use "optimal" timings. They barely use the powers they have in the first place. An easy to use interface to set up some trigggers once will achieve a lot more than the current keybind system or manual click system. It also gives people a chance to think about what triggers make sense.

    You can still choose not to use the auto-triggers, but there will be pleny that will fare better with them, without increasing their workload beyond what they are willing to do.
    I'm not for or against OPs idea since as I said I don't know how it is on consoles and am also not interested in consoles, but if PC players currently neglect or fail to use the existing tray activations, key binds, and manual toggles, making that somehow automated will impact those of us who do opt to use powers to match or anticipate various scenarios.

    For example, if entering combat will trigger some team wide damage buff, that now greys out my own team-wide buff, harming every team member's performance for every stray little enemy probe that triggers red alert. If players neglect powers and timings, I'd rather them suffer for it and see first-hand a reason to improve, as opposed to automating it and surely breaking it for others and their own team.

    Again, I'm not sure how such automation works, so feel free to correct my worry against its use on PCs where we have keyboards, mice, joysticks at our disposal to control everything quite well (nevermind the powers activation failure bug).

    buffs that effect other players could easily be made exempt from auto trigger in team based missions so more experienced players can choose to activate them at the best time, surely this would be better then having some noob or other player who doesn't understand the buffs triggering them at what you consider to be the wrong time simply because like me they don't really know what works best when and just randomly click things and hope they are doing something useful.
    if it come to it auto-trigger could be disabled entirely in team missions if it might cause problems for other players but I don't see what anyone has against players having the auto-trigger option in solo missions as it effects no one other then the player who uses it.
    Because "some noob" randomly clicking them manually is of course better than having them on autofire, right? :p

    Team buffs being greyed out while active is a convenience, keeping you from wasting a casting on a buff that is already up. It doesn't harm the team's performance, it improves it. But if it comes to it that convenience can be withdrawn and the elitists be allowed to waste their buffs on simultaneous castings if that's so important for them.

    Or perhaps the ability to cast buffs that are already up should be an option, because the rest of us may want to keep that convenience.

    But auto-trigger can't be disabled. Not without removing keybinds.

    since there is no auto-trigger how do you know it cannot be disabled without removing keybinds.
    I was referring to the fact that keybinds can be used for automation. Thus it's not possible to disable people's ability to automate their powers without disabling keybinds.

    you seem to be confused about how this would work, if a player prefers to use some different method then auto-triggers all they would need to do is disable auto-triggers and this would be the case if its the player that disables auto-triggers in the settings or if the game disables it due to it not being allowed in multiplayer missions, no other method would be effected by this so if you wanted to call skills yourself manually or use keybinds for automation or whatever there would be no clash by auto-triggers if it is disabled.
    even if auto-triggers was enabled the player could still call a skill manually either with an assigned key or by clicking on the skill in the skill bar with his mouse if he thinks it a good time to do so.
    basically whatever method you prefer to use would be unaffected by disabling auto-triggers.

    it would basically be just like having auto fire on your joypad or joystick turning it off would not effect your ability to fire by whatever method you prefer to use.

    you are more likely to have problems if you had auto-triggers enabled at the same time that you use some other form of automation but this is easily avoided by simply disabling auto-triggers in your settings.

    it would also be highly likely that auto-triggers would be disabled by default in any case so anyone who doesn't want to use it would be unaffected by its presents and it would be business as usual, only if you wanted to use it would you need to seek out the setting and enable it.
    Post edited by bobbydazlers on

    When I think about everything we've been through together,

    maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,

     and if that journey takes a little longer,

    so we can do something we all believe in,

     I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.

  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    [...]
    Ay, therein lies the rub! Because activation of abilities is not meant to be a 'tedious repletion [repetition?] of basic tasks.' Rather, their activation is supposed to require proper timing, by the player, who understands what to activate when.

    When playing, how do you time your "emergency power to x" abilities? Are you saying you do not (basically) press them whenever possible?

    I personally try to time them with other abilities, for example ep2w right before clicking BFAW or BO

    You mean you don't have them on global cooldown anyway?

    I'm not a min - maxer or anything, so I have no idea if how I do things is truly optimal, but anyway I generally save my ep2w until I'm ready to use either B:FaW or B:O to maximize the effectiveness of those abilities.
    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
    eaY7Xxu.png
  • tobiashirttobiashirt Member Posts: 630 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    trejgon wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    you're free to not use it.


    If the sole argument pro auto-activation is that you can disable it, then I'd say you're making a bad case in favor of it. :)

    I'd rather say thats the sole counterargument because for the moment being the only argument against giving that console autoactivation feature to PC listed in this thread is "I don't want because it will **** my timings hurr durr"


    Nope; you fall into the same trap as warpangel. Auto-activation will severely mess up your timings. So, if you want it, you'll need to come up with a *very* good set of reasons why it should be implemented nonetheless. Otherwise it just remains an incredibly bad idea. Because when the only argument against messing up your timings is 'but you can disable it,' with no real pros in the basket, then all you really did is give a good reason not to implement it in the first place.

    But there are pros.

    Most people don't use "optimal" timings. They barely use the powers they have in the first place. An easy to use interface to set up some triggers once will achieve a lot more than the current keybind system or manual click system. It also gives people a chance to think about what triggers make sense.

    You can still choose not to use the auto-triggers, but there will be plenty that will fare better with them, without increasing their workload beyond what they are willing to do.

    That's the key part of the whole discussion, for me, over (hypothetically) porting this feature...the ability to set some conditions for the triggering. The example someone gave upthread of using a shield heal at 50% capacity, for example. You could tune the percent, set a delay (if shields go above 50% in the 3s after initial condition is met, the heal is not cast), and keep a second similar heal on manual to fill in gaps if something about the auto-timing doesn't work quite right. If an auto-cast worked the same as autofire on ground, it'd be less useful but not entirely useless (e.g. if you can't set conditions, only powers like eptX that you want up all the time would benefit from this mechanism).

    Two things also, Mei...very few people do the hundreds of thousands of dps in your hyperbole (only people I know of making 400k+ are tacs, only 1 of the 3 careers), and even with a perfect AI, many other factors need to come into play to come close. Team composition, coordination, usage of movement buffs like evasive for positioning, etc. Thus, no amount of automation will fix somebody who misses objectives, flies poorly, or is undergeared for a mission. Secondly, I'd direct your attention (and that of others) to the text in your sigpic.
  • tobiashirttobiashirt Member Posts: 630 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    nikeix wrote: »
    People say players wanting it are "lazy". I say it was appallingly lazy design to try and make gameplay hinge on tedious repletion of basic tasks...


    -

    ...P.S. I would be in a favor of an extended macro language, though, the kind that let's you define conditionals for activation. That might actually be wickedly cool, but it would still be the player who defines the conditions.

    +1
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    cronoprime wrote: »
    Perhaps you should have been a touch more clear because the abilities don't have the option to just "auto-activated" but to "
    activate under specific conditions.

    For example, you can set Science Team to go off at certain shield levels, or you can have it go off to cleanse a shield debuff. BUT you can have only ONE condition set. If you have it set to "activate at 50% shields" it won't go off to clear a debuff, or vice versa.

    Or with something like Tachyon beam you can have it be activated "as often as possible", or "when target shields are greater than 50 percent", or "activate only against Battleship type targets"

    And even if you set a condition, you can still activate manually if the ability isn't on cooldown. Some abilities don't have conditionals at all. Examples being the Aeroshuttle, Science Fleet, or the Energy Weapon Entanglement of the Quantum Phase set.

    And finally, you can choose to NOT use any conditions at all and activate all abilities manually. What the system does is let me focus on movement and the abilities that "I" want to focus on, leaving the rest to my supposedly "professional" bridge crew. The system isn't perfect, but it DOES make the PS4 version more "fun" than the PC version. Yes, I have played the PC version under WINE...I started playing after the game went F2P in 2012.


    Glad you brought this up, as it really changes things from just auto-activation to something which is apparently a lot more nuanced in reality. :)
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    tobiashirt wrote: »
    Two things also, Mei...very few people do the hundreds of thousands of dps in your hyperbole (only people I know of making 400k+ are tacs, only 1 of the 3 careers), and even with a perfect AI, many other factors need to come into play to come close. Team composition, coordination, usage of movement buffs like evasive for positioning, etc. Thus, no amount of automation will fix somebody who misses objectives, flies poorly, or is undergeared for a mission. Secondly, I'd direct your attention (and that of others) to the text in your sigpic.


    Fair enough.

    P.S. My 400K comment was based on the notion that we were talking about a fully automated, intelligent system, that could basically do what top-DPSers do. I was glad to read, just now, that this is fortunately not the case, and that's it's conditional based, which I really like, and could be quite exciting even. And you're also right about positioning and stuff (funny side-node: I was just pimping out some cool rides in GTA V, and discovered, today, I can even have my car autodrive to waypoint, and I chuckled, thinking of this thread, LOL).
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • bobbydazlersbobbydazlers Member Posts: 4,534 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    wendysue53 wrote: »
    To sum up:

    If you want to automate your powers, then do so.
    You already have those options in the game, if you are PC.
    Not doing so, means:
    1. You don't know how.

    so elaborate and impress us all, how do you completely automate your powers in game so it works the same as it does on console on the pc.
    put up or shut up.

    When I think about everything we've been through together,

    maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,

     and if that journey takes a little longer,

    so we can do something we all believe in,

     I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.

  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    tobiashirt wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    trejgon wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    you're free to not use it.


    If the sole argument pro auto-activation is that you can disable it, then I'd say you're making a bad case in favor of it. :)

    I'd rather say thats the sole counterargument because for the moment being the only argument against giving that console autoactivation feature to PC listed in this thread is "I don't want because it will **** my timings hurr durr"


    Nope; you fall into the same trap as warpangel. Auto-activation will severely mess up your timings. So, if you want it, you'll need to come up with a *very* good set of reasons why it should be implemented nonetheless. Otherwise it just remains an incredibly bad idea. Because when the only argument against messing up your timings is 'but you can disable it,' with no real pros in the basket, then all you really did is give a good reason not to implement it in the first place.

    But there are pros.

    Most people don't use "optimal" timings. They barely use the powers they have in the first place. An easy to use interface to set up some triggers once will achieve a lot more than the current keybind system or manual click system. It also gives people a chance to think about what triggers make sense.

    You can still choose not to use the auto-triggers, but there will be plenty that will fare better with them, without increasing their workload beyond what they are willing to do.

    That's the key part of the whole discussion, for me, over (hypothetically) porting this feature...the ability to set some conditions for the triggering. The example someone gave upthread of using a shield heal at 50% capacity, for example. You could tune the percent, set a delay (if shields go above 50% in the 3s after initial condition is met, the heal is not cast), and keep a second similar heal on manual to fill in gaps if something about the auto-timing doesn't work quite right. If an auto-cast worked the same as autofire on ground, it'd be less useful but not entirely useless (e.g. if you can't set conditions, only powers like eptX that you want up all the time would benefit from this mechanism).

    Two things also, Mei...very few people do the hundreds of thousands of dps in your hyperbole (only people I know of making 400k+ are tacs, only 1 of the 3 careers), and even with a perfect AI, many other factors need to come into play to come close. Team composition, coordination, usage of movement buffs like evasive for positioning, etc. Thus, no amount of automation will fix somebody who misses objectives, flies poorly, or is undergeared for a mission. Secondly, I'd direct your attention (and that of others) to the text in your sigpic.

    When I gave the shield heal example I also gave an example of a situation you absolutely would not want to use a shield heal, but automation probably would use it anyway, wasting the heal and putting the ability on cooldown :)
    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
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  • wendysue53wendysue53 Member Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    wendysue53 wrote: »
    To sum up:

    If you want to automate your powers, then do so.
    You already have those options in the game, if you are PC.
    Not doing so, means:
    1. You don't know how.

    so elaborate and impress us all, how do you completely automate your powers in game so it works the same as it does on console on the pc.
    put up or shut up.

    jeez. they're macros. you either know how to use them or you don't. sheesh. the console stuff is nice. but it's a different concept. You really go off into left-field sometimes...
  • bobbydazlersbobbydazlers Member Posts: 4,534 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    wendysue53 wrote: »
    wendysue53 wrote: »
    To sum up:

    If you want to automate your powers, then do so.
    You already have those options in the game, if you are PC.
    Not doing so, means:
    1. You don't know how.

    so elaborate and impress us all, how do you completely automate your powers in game so it works the same as it does on console on the pc.
    put up or shut up.

    jeez. they're macros. you either know how to use them or you don't. sheesh. the console stuff is nice. but it's a different concept. You really go off into left-field sometimes...

    like you say "you either know how to use them or you don't" that's the beauty of the console auto-trigger function, no knowledge is required to use it, you simply activate it and the auto-trigger function does the rest activating skills when the software deems it to be appropriate.
    like I said before if players choose to use a different system that they know and understand that's fine and not activating the auto-trigger function will allow for that but for players like myself that don't understand the concepts of macros, keybinds and whatever an auto-trigger function would be a godsend for us.
    I think its pretty darn mean and selfish for anyone to oppose this for no good reason and lets face it there is no good reason to oppose this.

    all I have seen is self-centred comments like "but I prefer to use" such and such " and so should you" to which I say if you want to use that who stopping you.
    or
    "but it might interfere with my game if another players auto-trigger activates a skill at the wrong time" and I say so a player like me who activates a skill at the wrong time doesn't?.
    Post edited by bobbydazlers on

    When I think about everything we've been through together,

    maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,

     and if that journey takes a little longer,

    so we can do something we all believe in,

     I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.

  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    tobiashirt wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    trejgon wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    you're free to not use it.


    If the sole argument pro auto-activation is that you can disable it, then I'd say you're making a bad case in favor of it. :)

    I'd rather say thats the sole counterargument because for the moment being the only argument against giving that console autoactivation feature to PC listed in this thread is "I don't want because it will **** my timings hurr durr"


    Nope; you fall into the same trap as warpangel. Auto-activation will severely mess up your timings. So, if you want it, you'll need to come up with a *very* good set of reasons why it should be implemented nonetheless. Otherwise it just remains an incredibly bad idea. Because when the only argument against messing up your timings is 'but you can disable it,' with no real pros in the basket, then all you really did is give a good reason not to implement it in the first place.

    But there are pros.

    Most people don't use "optimal" timings. They barely use the powers they have in the first place. An easy to use interface to set up some triggers once will achieve a lot more than the current keybind system or manual click system. It also gives people a chance to think about what triggers make sense.

    You can still choose not to use the auto-triggers, but there will be plenty that will fare better with them, without increasing their workload beyond what they are willing to do.

    That's the key part of the whole discussion, for me, over (hypothetically) porting this feature...the ability to set some conditions for the triggering. The example someone gave upthread of using a shield heal at 50% capacity, for example. You could tune the percent, set a delay (if shields go above 50% in the 3s after initial condition is met, the heal is not cast), and keep a second similar heal on manual to fill in gaps if something about the auto-timing doesn't work quite right. If an auto-cast worked the same as autofire on ground, it'd be less useful but not entirely useless (e.g. if you can't set conditions, only powers like eptX that you want up all the time would benefit from this mechanism).

    Two things also, Mei...very few people do the hundreds of thousands of dps in your hyperbole (only people I know of making 400k+ are tacs, only 1 of the 3 careers), and even with a perfect AI, many other factors need to come into play to come close. Team composition, coordination, usage of movement buffs like evasive for positioning, etc. Thus, no amount of automation will fix somebody who misses objectives, flies poorly, or is undergeared for a mission. Secondly, I'd direct your attention (and that of others) to the text in your sigpic.

    When I gave the shield heal example I also gave an example of a situation you absolutely would not want to use a shield heal, but automation probably would use it anyway, wasting the heal and putting the ability on cooldown :)

    Then use a different trigger for the auto-activation.


    Both Science Team and Hazard Emitters should work well with the "cleanse debuff" trigger that I saw mentioned somewhere. This works great for your Borg scenario - the HE triggers when you get shield drained, and you can then manually activate Science Team to heal. (Auto-Activation doesn't disable the ability to manually trigger powers, it just means there are conditions you don't need to press for)
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    But there are pros.

    Most people don't use "optimal" timings. They barely use the powers they have in the first place. An easy to use interface to set up some trigggers once will achieve a lot more than the current keybind system or manual click system. It also gives people a chance to think about what triggers make sense.

    You can still choose not to use the auto-triggers, but there will be pleny that will fare better with them, without increasing their workload beyond what they are willing to do.
    I'm not for or against OPs idea since as I said I don't know how it is on consoles and am also not interested in consoles, but if PC players currently neglect or fail to use the existing tray activations, key binds, and manual toggles, making that somehow automated will impact those of us who do opt to use powers to match or anticipate various scenarios.

    For example, if entering combat will trigger some team wide damage buff, that now greys out my own team-wide buff, harming every team member's performance for every stray little enemy probe that triggers red alert. If players neglect powers and timings, I'd rather them suffer for it and see first-hand a reason to improve, as opposed to automating it and surely breaking it for others and their own team.

    Again, I'm not sure how such automation works, so feel free to correct my worry against its use on PCs where we have keyboards, mice, joysticks at our disposal to control everything quite well (nevermind the powers activation failure bug).

    buffs that effect other players could easily be made exempt from auto trigger in team based missions so more experienced players can choose to activate them at the best time, surely this would be better then having some noob or other player who doesn't understand the buffs triggering them at what you consider to be the wrong time simply because like me they don't really know what works best when and just randomly click things and hope they are doing something useful.
    if it come to it auto-trigger could be disabled entirely in team missions if it might cause problems for other players but I don't see what anyone has against players having the auto-trigger option in solo missions as it effects no one other then the player who uses it.
    Because "some noob" randomly clicking them manually is of course better than having them on autofire, right? :p

    Team buffs being greyed out while active is a convenience, keeping you from wasting a casting on a buff that is already up. It doesn't harm the team's performance, it improves it. But if it comes to it that convenience can be withdrawn and the elitists be allowed to waste their buffs on simultaneous castings if that's so important for them.

    Or perhaps the ability to cast buffs that are already up should be an option, because the rest of us may want to keep that convenience.

    But auto-trigger can't be disabled. Not without removing keybinds.

    since there is no auto-trigger how do you know it cannot be disabled without removing keybinds.
    I was referring to the fact that keybinds can be used for automation. Thus it's not possible to disable people's ability to automate their powers without disabling keybinds.

    you seem to be confused about how this would work, if a player prefers to use some different method then auto-triggers all they would need to do is disable auto-triggers and this would be the case if its the player that disables auto-triggers in the settings or if the game disables it due to it not being allowed in multiplayer missions, no other method would be effected by this so if you wanted to call skills yourself manually or use keybinds for automation or whatever there would be no clash by auto-triggers if it is disabled.
    even if auto-triggers was enabled the player could still call a skill manually either with an assigned key or by clicking on the skill in the skill bar with his mouse if he thinks it a good time to do so.
    basically whatever method you prefer to use would be unaffected by disabling auto-triggers.
    I'm not confused about anything. The point was that automation "not being allowed in multiplayer missions" wouldn't accomplish anything because people could still automate with keybinds just like they do now.

    Of course, automation really shouldn't be disabled in multiplayer at all. The naysayers have no logical argument whatsoever against it, they're just trying to make up something superficially more convincing than "I don't like it."
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    like you say "you either know how to use them or you don't" that's the beauty of the console auto-trigger function, no knowledge is required to use it, you simply activate it and the auto-trigger function does the rest activating skills when the software deems it to be appropriate.

    Yeah, that's not the 'beauty' of it, but the horror. You say 'no knowledge is required to use it' as a good thing, whereas I shiver at even hearing it. Why don't we ask Cryptic to just make a Director's Mode for missions?! Then the mission will basically just be one long cut-scene, and we'll deposit the rewards directly into your account afterwards!? Would that make it even easier for you?
    (...) but for players like myself that don't understand the concepts of macros, keybinds and whatever an auto-trigger function would be a godsend for us.

    I dunno, L2P maybe!? Even a little?!
    I think its pretty darn mean and selfish for anyone to oppose this for no good reason and lets face it there is no good reason to oppose this.

    All of this still sounds very surreal to me. :) Even very seasoned players in this thread are advocating in favor of this. *boggle* I dread the day when Cryptic actually introduces this 'no knowledge required' monstrosity. Fortunately, even on console, it's not really auto-activation, but a macro kinda thing, with conditionals that need to be set by the player. So, bursting that pipe-dream of yours, I'm afraid you will need to acquire some understanding of 'concepts of macros, keybinds and whatever', after all.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • nikeixnikeix Member Posts: 3,972 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    Ok, I realize the long term payoff is not as obvious to other people so I'll go over it slowly. Adding standing orders is going to do almost nothing for players already way out on the right hand end of the rat-tail curve that is playerbase performance in STO. If you're already awesome you're gonna stay awesome. Standing orders are also not going to benefit the truly terrible over at the extreme left hand end of that performance curve - there are people whose money Cryptic is happy to take but who simply cannot be taught, even with in-game UI and tutorials. But what Standing Orders WILL do is shift the bulk of the hump to a higher level of effectiveness. Average players will be given the means to stack up their buffs more consistently and to heal and cleanse in a more timely fashion.

    Any time you can close the gap between average and maximum performance, that is a good thing. These days we're looking at over a FIFTY X gap. That's absurd. It's toxic, and the game's financial wellbeing suffers for it. Small changes in average performance have big impacts on that multiplier. Closing that gap means the content designers can push the floor for difficulty up a little, which gets multiplied to a more dramatic jump in difficulty in the advanced/elite environments... and makes the game LESS BORING for everyone.

    The only people that suffer from making good command decisions more accessible are those who measure their accomplishments by how many 'x' they outperform average players... But if you're already doing 400k DPS and up, are you really that threatened by average/expected performance going from 10k to 20k? A jump that gives the Devs some room to make basic encounters a little more energetic?
  • tobiashirttobiashirt Member Posts: 630 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    like you say "you either know how to use them or you don't" that's the beauty of the console auto-trigger function, no knowledge is required to use it, you simply activate it and the auto-trigger function does the rest activating skills when the software deems it to be appropriate.

    Yeah, that's not the 'beauty' of it, but the horror. You say 'no knowledge is required to use it' as a good thing, whereas I shiver at even hearing it. Why don't we ask Cryptic to just make a Director's Mode for missions?! Then the mission will basically just be one long cut-scene, and we'll deposit the rewards directly into your account afterwards!? Would that make it even easier for you?
    (...) but for players like myself that don't understand the concepts of macros, keybinds and whatever an auto-trigger function would be a godsend for us.

    I dunno, L2P maybe!? Even a little?!
    I think its pretty darn mean and selfish for anyone to oppose this for no good reason and lets face it there is no good reason to oppose this.

    All of this still sounds very surreal to me. :) Even very seasoned players in this thread are advocating in favor of this. *boggle* I dread the day when Cryptic actually introduces this 'no knowledge required' monstrosity. Fortunately, even on console, it's not really auto-activation, but a macro kinda thing, with conditionals that need to be set by the player. So, bursting that pipe-dream of yours, I'm afraid you will need to acquire some understanding of 'concepts of macros, keybinds and whatever', after all.

    It seems like "no knowledge required" is in direct contrast to the skill of "conditionals that need to be set by the player". Pick one.
    Even if something like this were put in, it's a new skill to learn to set conditionals well and sequnce abilities correctly. There would still be a skill ceiling to it, still be threads for new players, still be people confused about how it works, etc.

    P.S.: Telling people to 'L2P' is just going to drive any new people who want to learn off, leaving a wider gap between those that remain. Plus, given that I'm still learning new things almost daily, I'm sure there's stuff you don't yet know :smiley:
  • tobiashirttobiashirt Member Posts: 630 Arc User
    When I gave the shield heal example I also gave an example of a situation you absolutely would not want to use a shield heal, but automation probably would use it anyway, wasting the heal and putting the ability on cooldown :)

    I use a mix of keybinds and manual activations now, anyway...just trying to envision some introduction of an automation feature that would be fun to toy around with.
  • bobbydazlersbobbydazlers Member Posts: 4,534 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    like you say "you either know how to use them or you don't" that's the beauty of the console auto-trigger function, no knowledge is required to use it, you simply activate it and the auto-trigger function does the rest activating skills when the software deems it to be appropriate.

    Yeah, that's not the 'beauty' of it, but the horror. You say 'no knowledge is required to use it' as a good thing, whereas I shiver at even hearing it. Why don't we ask Cryptic to just make a Director's Mode for missions?! Then the mission will basically just be one long cut-scene, and we'll deposit the rewards directly into your account afterwards!? Would that make it even easier for you?
    (...) but for players like myself that don't understand the concepts of macros, keybinds and whatever an auto-trigger function would be a godsend for us.

    I dunno, L2P maybe!? Even a little?!
    I think its pretty darn mean and selfish for anyone to oppose this for no good reason and lets face it there is no good reason to oppose this.

    All of this still sounds very surreal to me. :) Even very seasoned players in this thread are advocating in favor of this. *boggle* I dread the day when Cryptic actually introduces this 'no knowledge required' monstrosity. Fortunately, even on console, it's not really auto-activation, but a macro kinda thing, with conditionals that need to be set by the player. So, bursting that pipe-dream of yours, I'm afraid you will need to acquire some understanding of 'concepts of macros, keybinds and whatever', after all.

    i enjoy the combat shooting the bad guys and timing when best to use torps after wearing down the shields and such and if combat relied wholly on just that there would not be a problem but theres also a plethora of skills to use as well and although I know some there are others that are just a mystery to me and when best to deploy them even more so.

    pretty sure if cryptic implemented this it would not be long before the DPS League or some other kind soul put out a suggestion on how best to set this up.

    after all I enjoy using a computer, browsing the internet, playing games and such but it doesn't mean I have to be knowledgeable on how to program these things to enjoy and benefit from them.

    I hope when your 60 years old and find a game you enjoy playing others will be as kind as you have been here to assist in keeping up with the younger players who can grasp the subtle intricacies of the game much easier then you can.

    but don't worry if you think not getting this will put me off playing, I will grope my way through as best I can and still enjoy the game as much as I do now, it will just be a lot harder to get there then it is for others.

    When I think about everything we've been through together,

    maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,

     and if that journey takes a little longer,

    so we can do something we all believe in,

     I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.

  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    nikeix wrote: »
    Ok, I realize the long term payoff is not as obvious to other people so I'll go over it slowly. Adding standing orders is going to do almost nothing for players already way out on the right hand end of the rat-tail curve that is playerbase performance in STO. If you're already awesome you're gonna stay awesome. Standing orders are also not going to benefit the truly terrible over at the extreme left hand end of that performance curve - there are people whose money Cryptic is happy to take but who simply cannot be taught, even with in-game UI and tutorials. But what Standing Orders WILL do is shift the bulk of the hump to a higher level of effectiveness. Average players will be given the means to stack up their buffs more consistently and to heal and cleanse in a more timely fashion.

    Actually, the way I see it, is precisely the opposite. :) The short term effect will be that those in the mid-segment will likely, indeed, do a wee better (or rather, the game will do a little better for them); but, in the long run, it will have the bad effect of new players having even less incentive to ever even want to learn just a little bit.
    But if you're already doing 400k DPS and up, are you really that threatened by average/expected performance going from 10k to 20k?

    FTR, I'm not the one doing 400K and up, btw; but those who are, I'm sure, would never be threatened by Standing Orders. If there's anything to 'fear', though, then it will be that soon we'll be looking at an entire generation of players brought up with the belief they don't need to L2P at all, ever. Eventually I think that's going to harm the game, yes. In the beginning doing slightly better will likely be somewhat fun, but, at the end of the day, a game that basically just plays itself will be boring.
    tobiashirt wrote: »
    P.S.: Telling people to 'L2P' is just going to drive any new people who want to learn off, leaving a wider gap between those that remain. Plus, given that I'm still learning new things almost daily, I'm sure there's stuff you don't yet know :smiley:

    You need to place my "L2P maybe!? Even a little?!" comment in the right context. It was in response to a flagrant, in-your-face, "Haha, I know absolutely nothing, am totally unwilling to learn, and how dare you suggest people should actually try and educate themselves even a little!?" attitude. It used to be that such blatant laziness was frowned upon; but we're living in different times now, I guess. The Console Generation is upon us!
    3lsZz0w.jpg
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