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T6 TEMPORAL LIGHT CRUISER (CONSTITUTION CLASS)

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  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    Federation?!?! I thought we were talking about the United Earth Space Probe Agency (UESPA). Stick that Canon in your hat. :)
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • drakethewhitedrakethewhite Member Posts: 1,240 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    That's still only speculation and relies on two things, the first is (as you said) assuming the word 'Federation' is used as it is now but also that the different facets of the Federation we've seen can be made coherent due to the different writers and the different directions they've taken the UFP in.

    I think I already covered that in an edit to my post, but basically says all bets are off for the shows made decades later.

    But I think it's clear that the original TOS was a Federation and operated as one although we know few of the rules it operated under. To be honest, I'd doubt later writers and show runners even knew what the term "Federation' meant. All those shows were rather disconnected from reality IMO.

    I hadn't seen your edit when I replied, but yes, the disparity between, for example, Earth and Vulcan seems to be wide for a federation. But I also think it's too great. The modern US as well as Russia and Germany are also Federal and I can't envisage a situation whereby mortal combat would be allowed in one New York but not in Georgia. Or where a caste system can exist in North Dakota but not in Florida.
    That's why it works better as an analogue to the UN where modern countries and medieval ones can (more or less) co-exist under some sort of overseeing organisation.​​

    You're hung up on your image of 'today', and that's a mistake. Modern Federations represent just one subtype, one IMO near the end of its lifespan in the case of the US.

    Such huge differences existed between many of the States early in US History. Free or Slave, and yes even lethal dueling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duel#Colonial_North_America_and_United_States) was outlawed by the individual States on their own at differing times, not once by Federal Government which would have required an amendment (as was done with slavery, such was attempted with dueling but failed).

    In fact Federation and Confederation are governments intended by nature to contain very significant difference between states (or planets). They are a method to combine resources and goals between disparate and even semi-hostile member states. Huge differences are not an argument against Federation, it's an argument for.

    Edit: Links that may help

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitary_state

    I think you're getting too hung up on definitions. Clearly these definitions have changed. The US is still a Federal Republic despite the increasing amount power of central government. However the current state of the matter is that such large disparities do not exist, meaning a Federation by definition no longer supports such large disparities.

    Definitions matter, they don't change just because governments and cultures change. And as the wiki indicates, the definition in common usage hasn't changed. You can't redefine terms as you like, for a Rose by any other name is still Rose. Your attempt to re-label things to suit your taste just indicates to me that you're not a person worth engaging with.

    Now if you wish to make the claim that the US is currently far more of a Unitary State than it is a Federation- you can. But that that is an off topic subject and I'm not interested. As another option, if you want to claim what the Federation is no longer a Federation after some in-setting event, that would be on topic. And given I know very little Star Trek after TOS- not a topic I'm interested in unless it's based in TOS.

    So I think you and I are done here.
  • nikeixnikeix Member Posts: 3,972 Arc User
    Dueling in the early USA was outlawed state by state rather than by federal fiat as I recall...
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    artan42 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    That's still only speculation and relies on two things, the first is (as you said) assuming the word 'Federation' is used as it is now but also that the different facets of the Federation we've seen can be made coherent due to the different writers and the different directions they've taken the UFP in.

    I think I already covered that in an edit to my post, but basically says all bets are off for the shows made decades later.

    But I think it's clear that the original TOS was a Federation and operated as one although we know few of the rules it operated under. To be honest, I'd doubt later writers and show runners even knew what the term "Federation' meant. All those shows were rather disconnected from reality IMO.

    I hadn't seen your edit when I replied, but yes, the disparity between, for example, Earth and Vulcan seems to be wide for a federation. But I also think it's too great. The modern US as well as Russia and Germany are also Federal and I can't envisage a situation whereby mortal combat would be allowed in one New York but not in Georgia. Or where a caste system can exist in North Dakota but not in Florida.
    That's why it works better as an analogue to the UN where modern countries and medieval ones can (more or less) co-exist under some sort of overseeing organisation.​​

    You're hung up on your image of 'today', and that's a mistake. Modern Federations represent just one subtype, one IMO near the end of its lifespan in the case of the US.

    Such huge differences existed between many of the States early in US History. Free or Slave, and yes even lethal dueling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duel#Colonial_North_America_and_United_States) was outlawed by the individual States on their own at differing times, not once by Federal Government which would have required an amendment (as was done with slavery, such was attempted with dueling but failed).

    In fact Federation and Confederation are governments intended by nature to contain very significant difference between states (or planets). They are a method to combine resources and goals between disparate and even semi-hostile member states. Huge differences are not an argument against Federation, it's an argument for.

    Edit: Links that may help

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitary_state

    I think you're getting too hung up on definitions. Clearly these definitions have changed. The US is still a Federal Republic despite the increasing amount power of central government. However the current state of the matter is that such large disparities do not exist, meaning a Federation by definition no longer supports such large disparities.

    Definitions matter, they don't change just because governments and cultures change. And as the wiki indicates, the definition in common usage hasn't changed. You can't redefine terms as you like, for a Rose by any other name is still Rose. Your attempt to re-label things to suit your taste just indicates to me that you're not a person worth engaging with.

    Now if you wish to make the claim that the US is currently far more of a Unitary State than it is a Federation- you can. But that that is an off topic subject and I'm not interested. As another option, if you want to claim what the Federation is no longer a Federation after some in-setting event, that would be on topic. And given I know very little Star Trek after TOS- not a topic I'm interested in unless it's based in TOS.

    So I think you and I are done here.

    Oh dear. Your inability to accept the fact that definitions are changeable is a bit silly. So, yes, we're probably done.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • She sure is beautiful though... worth the price tag...

    If people'll pay it.
    kgwcNMHqvWPLO.gif
  • feiqafeiqa Member Posts: 2,410 Arc User
    You're hung up on your image of 'today', and that's a mistake. Modern Federations represent just one subtype, one IMO near the end of its lifespan in the case of the US.

    Such huge differences existed between many of the States early in US History. Free or Slave, and yes even lethal dueling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duel#Colonial_North_America_and_United_States) was outlawed by the individual States on their own at differing times, not once by Federal Government which would have required an amendment (as was done with slavery, such was attempted with dueling but failed).

    I can see some of your argument, in that early Federation was a loose coalition and over time began to homogenize a bit. Similar to early U.S. history versus present. One of the changes is speed of communication and enforcement. Early ToS Kirk was on his own for hours, if not days, on the romulan border before a response could possibly be returned to him. By TnG they could have real time conversations that far out. The reason that is significant is your neighbors in a society can put pressure on you to change from ways they disapprove of both economically and politically. But only if they hear of what you are doing that they disapprove of and can speak easily with other members.
    Look at Journey to Babel. The tellarites, or at least the ambassador, come off as practically ferengi in avarice. Wanting to not admit a system to the Federation so it could continue to exploit them. This was so important to them the drunken ambassador chose to physically attack the Vulcan ambassador. Whereas by TnG these things happen outside the Federation. Not in it.

    Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
    Network engineers are not ship designers.
    Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
  • tacticalrooktacticalrook Member Posts: 810 Arc User
    Some of you fellas may not realize it, but this isn't a thread about government.
    johnnymo1 wrote: »
    I paid through the nose for mine. but honestly i did try to open boxes to get it, the $100 i dropped on keys was a waste, the $100 i dropped on keys that I then traded/sold to buy the ship was well worth in. I will never open another box in game, but i'd buy a second and third of this ship in game happily. The ship needed to be more widely distributed, I had never complained about the drop rate of a ship in the boxes before, but this is arguably the most desired ship in the games history, This should have been something to treat and reward the customers and fans.
    When you say you tried to open boxes to get it and said the 100 [you] dropped on keys was a waste, were those separate incidents or are you saying you opened lock boxes to try to get the T6 Constitution to drop?
    /channel_join grind
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    Some of you fellas may not realize it, but this isn't a thread about government.

    The OP...
    monodoso wrote: »
    Been looking for this ship and wondering if anyone knows where I can purchase this. I know this comes from the R&D Promotion, but all I keep getting is Lobi. Anyone know who is selling one or who I can get a hold of (Channel in Chat). Any help would be appreciated.

    ...has already been answered. The thread has moved on.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • carcosa#4225 carcosa Member Posts: 161 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    artan42 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    That's still only speculation and relies on two things, the first is (as you said) assuming the word 'Federation' is used as it is now but also that the different facets of the Federation we've seen can be made coherent due to the different writers and the different directions they've taken the UFP in.

    I think I already covered that in an edit to my post, but basically says all bets are off for the shows made decades later.

    But I think it's clear that the original TOS was a Federation and operated as one although we know few of the rules it operated under. To be honest, I'd doubt later writers and show runners even knew what the term "Federation' meant. All those shows were rather disconnected from reality IMO.

    I hadn't seen your edit when I replied, but yes, the disparity between, for example, Earth and Vulcan seems to be wide for a federation. But I also think it's too great. The modern US as well as Russia and Germany are also Federal and I can't envisage a situation whereby mortal combat would be allowed in one New York but not in Georgia. Or where a caste system can exist in North Dakota but not in Florida.
    That's why it works better as an analogue to the UN where modern countries and medieval ones can (more or less) co-exist under some sort of overseeing organisation.​​

    You're hung up on your image of 'today', and that's a mistake. Modern Federations represent just one subtype, one IMO near the end of its lifespan in the case of the US.

    Such huge differences existed between many of the States early in US History. Free or Slave, and yes even lethal dueling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duel#Colonial_North_America_and_United_States) was outlawed by the individual States on their own at differing times, not once by Federal Government which would have required an amendment (as was done with slavery, such was attempted with dueling but failed).

    In fact Federation and Confederation are governments intended by nature to contain very significant difference between states (or planets). They are a method to combine resources and goals between disparate and even semi-hostile member states. Huge differences are not an argument against Federation, it's an argument for.

    Edit: Links that may help

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitary_state

    I think you're getting too hung up on definitions. Clearly these definitions have changed. The US is still a Federal Republic despite the increasing amount power of central government. However the current state of the matter is that such large disparities do not exist, meaning a Federation by definition no longer supports such large disparities.

    Definitions matter, they don't change just because governments and cultures change. And as the wiki indicates, the definition in common usage hasn't changed. You can't redefine terms as you like, for a Rose by any other name is still Rose. Your attempt to re-label things to suit your taste just indicates to me that you're not a person worth engaging with.

    Now if you wish to make the claim that the US is currently far more of a Unitary State than it is a Federation- you can. But that that is an off topic subject and I'm not interested. As another option, if you want to claim what the Federation is no longer a Federation after some in-setting event, that would be on topic. And given I know very little Star Trek after TOS- not a topic I'm interested in unless it's based in TOS.

    So I think you and I are done here.

    Oh dear. Your inability to accept the fact that definitions are changeable is a bit silly. So, yes, we're probably done.

    I agree definitions change, and have done so throughout history. Not sure what this argument is about though. Better let sleeping dogs lie.

    Also read something about scale... this ship is too tiny in game and if we are sticking to scale it should be under about 100m shorter than the Kelvin Connie, so maybe a little smaller than the Kelvin ship in game.
  • tacticalrooktacticalrook Member Posts: 810 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    Some of you fellas may not realize it, but this isn't a thread about government.

    The OP...
    monodoso wrote: »
    Been looking for this ship and wondering if anyone knows where I can purchase this. I know this comes from the R&D Promotion, but all I keep getting is Lobi. Anyone know who is selling one or who I can get a hold of (Channel in Chat). Any help would be appreciated.

    ...has already been answered. The thread has moved on.
    artan42 wrote: »
    Some of you fellas may not realize it, but this isn't a thread about government.

    The OP...
    monodoso wrote: »
    Been looking for this ship and wondering if anyone knows where I can purchase this. I know this comes from the R&D Promotion, but all I keep getting is Lobi. Anyone know who is selling one or who I can get a hold of (Channel in Chat). Any help would be appreciated.

    ...has already been answered. The thread has moved on.

    @ambassadorkael#6946 I'm curious to know how you feel about this perspective. If a random forum poster feels the OP has received a sufficient response to their original post from other forum posters, is it acceptable for them to derail the thread into something completely off-topic? Some folks seem to hold the viewpoint that threads can "move on" from their original topic.
    /channel_join grind
  • hmkchmkc Member Posts: 79 Arc User
    Drifting a bit off topic, aren't we?

    M
    ltminns wrote: »
    Federation?!?! I thought we were talking about the United Earth Space Probe Agency (UESPA). Stick that Canon in your hat. :)

    From "Tomorrow is Yesterday" yes I like the sound of that for some reason UESPA as the original 12 Starship(s) where launched under this banner.

    Capt PIKE: The same old Earth, and you'll see it very soon.
    Navigator TYLER: And you won't believe how fast you can get back. ... Our new ships can,......"

    EP1 the "CAGE" Not to get too side track here, but there were some great dialog in that episode - especially good banter (masterful) between Capt Pike and the Doctor in the second scene in Pike's cabin
    Kirk out!
  • hmkchmkc Member Posts: 79 Arc User
    johnnymo1 wrote: »
    I paid through the nose for mine. but honestly i did try to open boxes to get it, the $100 i dropped on keys was a waste, the $100 i dropped on keys that I then traded/sold to buy the ship was well worth in. I will never open another box in game, but i'd buy a second and third of this ship in game happily. The ship needed to be more widely distributed, I had never complained about the drop rate of a ship in the boxes before, but this is arguably the most desired ship in the games history, This should have been something to treat and reward the customers and fans.

    I'm with you on this one,- The TOS Enterprise is really the only ship I'd wanted to play in the first place, I'm just not interested in all of the others models that are available no matter what the tier! I just wonder what happens when T7 becomes the top tier?
    Kirk out!
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    Also read something about scale... this ship is too tiny in game and if we are sticking to scale it should be under about 100m shorter than the Kelvin Connie, so maybe a little smaller than the Kelvin ship in game.

    The TOS Conni? It's canon size works out to 50m shorter than the KT version, mainly due to the length of the KT nacelles. The KonsTitution is scaled to it's maximum onscreen size not it's most common (and the size the designer built it to). It's correct from a certain point of view but it would be like making the B'rel with a 700m wingspan because it was mis-scaled a few times.

    Short answer, the TOS Conni is correctly sized, it's the KT Conni that's too large.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    UESPA also mentioned in 'Charlie X'. Also came up in Enterprise and Voyager.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,101 Arc User
    ltminns wrote: »
    UESPA also mentioned in 'Charlie X'. Also came up in Enterprise and Voyager.
    UESPA was also mentioned in the TOS episode "Tomorrow Is Yesterday".
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
    TOS_Connie_Sig_final9550Pop.jpg
    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    hmkc had already mentioned 'Tomorrow is Yesterday' to my original post.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    Also read something about scale... this ship is too tiny in game and if we are sticking to scale it should be under about 100m shorter than the Kelvin Connie, so maybe a little smaller than the Kelvin ship in game.

    The TOS Conni? It's canon size works out to 50m shorter than the KT version, mainly due to the length of the KT nacelles. The KonsTitution is scaled to it's maximum onscreen size not it's most common (and the size the designer built it to). It's correct from a certain point of view but it would be like making the B'rel with a 700m wingspan because it was mis-scaled a few times.

    Short answer, the TOS Conni is correctly sized, it's the KT Conni that's too large.

    Except that CBS and Paramount disagrees with you as they are the ones who said to make it the size it is in game. I'm sorry to say, they trump what you say and day of the week and twice on sunday. Really, you unwillingness to accept what others say and what YOU personally think is all that matters is sad. The IP holder has the final say on what size the JJprise is. The society at LARGE gets to determine what WE collectively call things. You have exactly zero rights to tell the IP holder that they are wrong or that the community is using the wrong term because you said so. That's not how any of this works.

    Canon trumps any single thing CBS says. That's their own damn policy, not mine. Canon shows conflicting sizes with one more common size edging out. So unless CBS change their canon policy to have their own blu-ray special features outrank canon material the canon discrepancies stay. It's really that simple.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    They DID. Jeebus, you are so stuck in the past that it ain't even remotely funny anymore. They got rid of that stupid **** if you see it it's true rule a while ago...like any sane IP holder. So it's real simple...you are stuck in the past and WRONG. CBS gets to do what it wants with it's IP...you do not.

    I'm sorry, are you incapable of reading. What I keep posting, and you must therefore keep having to read, is CBS' statement on the matter. Like all policies and rules the world over rules stick around until retracted or replaced. So supply the evidence for either of those outcomes or get on with recognising that you're literally reading CBS decision on the IP whether you like it or not.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • cidjackcidjack Member Posts: 2,017 Arc User
    Man look at that, that train jumped the tracks and blew up. Someone call 911.
    Armada: Multiplying fleet projects in need of dilithium by 13."
    95bced8038c91ec6f880d510e6fd302f366a776c4c5761e5f7931d491667a45e.jpgvia Imgflip Meme Generator
  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,659 Arc User
    Star Trek admitted its mistakes about the economy in DS9 when they had the episode about the Great Material Continuum and established Ferengi-style trade economics as superior leading to better outcomes.

    It is enshrined in the canon.

    you mean dog-eat-dog, every man for himself, swindle or be swindled way of thinking?
    dvZq2Aj.jpg
  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,659 Arc User
    I think smokebailey has a point. You can cite "supply and demand" all you like, and I'll point out something else. It's called a speculator bubble. I think the lack of them seen in game is pretty strong evidence that people aren't using these for their intended purpose (aka playing them) but instead as some misguided attempt at an investment. In a speculator bubble, demand is artificially inflated by the idea that the price will continue to increase, hoarders and investors buy them with the intention of selling later for profit, and the market is distorted. It becomes incestuous and cannibalistic, and there inevitably comes a point where you have a bunch of sellers looking to cash in and no buyers because everyone left in the market has them to sell as well with the same idea of making money off of it. Those looking to liquidate their investment discover that they can't, the bubble bursts, and the investors are stuck with merchandise they can't move at all or that they can't sell for anywhere near what they put into it.

    This has all the signs of such a bubble. The players who want this ship for it's actual intended purpose have been priced out of the market and the only people buying and selling this thing are investors / speculators who are buying with intent to sell. Speculators alone cannot form a functioning customer base, the people who would buy them to use them have dropped out of the market. Those who continue to trade them are just swapping them among themselves at ever increasing prices, and that is unsustainable. When they try to cash in, they'll find they can't. The bubble will burst, and those holding them will find they cannot move them without taking a significant loss.

    Have fun with that. I'll wait for mine until the price comes down to a sane level. And I'll fly the damned thing, because it's a game piece meant to be used to play the game with. And the tears of the speculators will be delicious.

    So I'm a comic artist. And I've been a collector since I was a very small kid. And I worked at a comic book shop in college. Two friends owned their own shops. My best friend managed one of those shops. And I even interned at Valiant Comics in the 1990s. It's an industry and a hobby I have some familiarity with. And the speculator bubble thing you mention is often ascribed to comic book collecting.

    Let's look at two Superman comics as examples. Action Comics #1. Superman #75.
    Both are notable and have gained a lot of media attention.

    One is extremely valuable, because of rarity. The other is not, because of rarity.

    One is the textbook example of supply and demand. Action Comics #1 is the first appearance of Superman, the first appearance of the modern concept of the super hero, and the start of the super hero comic as a genre. So it is culturally significant. And there are estimates of maybe 100 in existence. Demand for such a comic is high, supply is low.

    (And this is why so many Golden and Silver Age comics are collectible and retain as well as appreciate in value over the years. There just aren't enough of them in existence.)

    But the other is the textbook example of speculators driving false value into a comic. Superman #75 had a massive print run and is readily available.

    So yeah, I get the analogy.

    The T6 Temporal Light Cruiser isn't really going to be a victim of speculation. Cryptic holds too much power in its rarity.

    1- It's a very rare reward from the packs.
    2- It's value is beyond the cap on the exchange, making it harder to track down and make a transaction for.

    That many of you keep noting you see practically none of these in-game, pushes this ship away from speculator bubble and more toward valuable collectible due to rarity.

    When the bubble bursts, it will be when Cryptic does something to change its control over the ship. Which means in a few years it will be dated and power will have crept past it, and the novelty will have begun to wear off. You see, there's not millions of these sitting in someone's basement all still polybagged. There's a small trickle of them entering the economy at a price point only a few people are willing to pay for.

    Hence my comparison to the JHAS. What changed for the bug ship to make its value decrease? It wasn't a burst of a speculator bubble. It was age, a new tier of ships that crept on its unique power value, re-release of its availability to put more in circulation, and a change in the EC cap.

    Like I said, wait 3 to 6 years. The Temporal Light Cruiser will come down in price by then. Slowly, gradually. It won't be a bubble bursting.

    BUT: All that being said, as one of the people that paid nearly a billion EC for his ... I sincerely hope that EVERYONE who wants one of these can and does get one. I got mine to fly. I paid a ton for it. I opened it. I love it. I can't even begin to tell you all how much I hope you too get to enjoy the game for yourselves the way I do now that I have one of these. I won't care if it devalues the ship I paid so much for. It is FUN, and I really really really want you all to have that kind of fun too.

    So even if it is a bubble that bursts? I say, HELL YEAH! T6 Connies for EVERYONE!

    Until then though, I still feel that given enough time, if one of you keeps at it you can get one of these. It's price is steep but at least it is actually IN the game now.

    Good luck to you all.

    I had a shop back when the Death of Superman book came out. I do understand exactly what you're talking about and I understand the point you're making about rarity. For example, I remember when X-Force #1 was a prime commodity. When they were still hot I picked up a few of them at what I considered a reasonable price, and once I had some in stock I started dramatically reducing what I'd offer for them figuring I would buy again after the ones I had moved. They never did, and I figured out why --there were way too many sellers and not enough buyers. That's when I realized that no matter what the price guide said, they were all but worthless and I stopped buying them at all for any price. You wouldn't believe how many people, many of them kids, were just devastated that what they thought was a goldmine wasn't even worth cover price. So I've personally been in a market with a burst speculator bubble and learned first hand how it works.

    Back to the Connie, I acknowledged the limited supply in my post which you're correct does help matters -to a degree-. Rarity alone doesn't guarantee anything, though. When speculators buy up the entire supply and trade between one another at ever-increasing prices, what happens is they price themselves out of the market. What they pay now with the expectation of selling higher down the road exceeds what the potential customer base is willing to spend, those potential buyers drop out of the market, and all that's left are the investors, selling to one another. When that happens, you're in bubble territory. Again, the lack of Connies being flown in this game strongly suggests that this has already happened and that the only ones out there are in the hands of speculators who have more invested in them than buyers are willing to pay.

    What happens next is that the speculators themselves, who are the only ones buying them at the current inflated bubble prices, will slow or stop their buying because they're doing what I did with those comics, wait to buy more until the ones they have move. But they won't move, because they've priced themselves out of the range of what the general customer is willing to pay. So at that point, everybody's selling and nobody's buying until and unless the price comes down. Those investors, who have sunk far more into the items than they will ever sell them for, are stuck taking a bloody bath. The bubble has burst. If the market for the items recovers at all, it will be at a vastly lower market corrected price that will never come close to the heights of bubble inflated prices.

    This is what happened in the housing market, where speculators flooded the market and bought up everything in sight to flip it for profit, usually to other investors / speculators. They were trading in a limited supply commodity with a high inherent desirability to it, but that didn't save them. Once they traded the price up past what their customer base could afford, they were in the bubble zone and from then on it wasn't a matter of if the bubble would burst and the market crash and massive losses taken, it was WHEN.

    The same forces apply here. Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it's mistakes.​​

    http://i.imgur.com/fDgPwI5.jpg


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  • feiqafeiqa Member Posts: 2,410 Arc User
    Star Trek admitted its mistakes about the economy in DS9 when they had the episode about the Great Material Continuum and established Ferengi-style trade economics as superior leading to better outcomes.

    It is enshrined in the canon.

    you mean dog-eat-dog, every man for himself, swindle or be swindled way of thinking?

    Actually it was Nog centric and ended up being much more positive about how economics can work.

    As a side note. How does the post picture function? Do I need a URL to put in there or drag and drop from my computer?

    Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
    Network engineers are not ship designers.
    Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,659 Arc User
    feiqa wrote: »
    Star Trek admitted its mistakes about the economy in DS9 when they had the episode about the Great Material Continuum and established Ferengi-style trade economics as superior leading to better outcomes.

    It is enshrined in the canon.

    you mean dog-eat-dog, every man for himself, swindle or be swindled way of thinking?

    Actually it was Nog centric and ended up being much more positive about how economics can work.

    As a side note. How does the post picture function? Do I need a URL to put in there or drag and drop from my computer?

    When you got a bunch of Rothschild and big oil wannabes out there, looking to get rich, and getting kicks from TRIBBLE over as many people as possible, I don't see it as good.

    I'll take whatever the Federation has anything over Ferengi-nomics.
    dvZq2Aj.jpg
  • feiqafeiqa Member Posts: 2,410 Arc User
    feiqa wrote: »
    Star Trek admitted its mistakes about the economy in DS9 when they had the episode about the Great Material Continuum and established Ferengi-style trade economics as superior leading to better outcomes.

    It is enshrined in the canon.

    you mean dog-eat-dog, every man for himself, swindle or be swindled way of thinking?

    Actually it was Nog centric and ended up being much more positive about how economics can work.

    As a side note. How does the post picture function? Do I need a URL to put in there or drag and drop from my computer?

    When you got a bunch of Rothschild and big oil wannabes out there, looking to get rich, and getting kicks from **** over as many people as possible, I don't see it as good.

    I'll take whatever the Federation has anything over Ferengi-nomics.

    That episode had Chief O'Brian stuck where he was going to get reamed by Sisko for failing to have parts he needed. And nothing O'Brian could do would save him. Federation economics.

    Nog borrows Sisko's desk, Martok's blood wine, and a few other things. It looks terrible but he asks O'Brian to have a little faith. In the end Sisko's desk is back, Martok has better bloodwine, and they have the parts they need. By applying Ferengi philosophy to a Federation problem. I believe the message was that in moderation the process can work. Done poorly and you have what the rest of the Ferengi became.

    (I meant it when I was asking for help.)

    Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
    Network engineers are not ship designers.
    Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    feiqa wrote: »
    feiqa wrote: »
    Star Trek admitted its mistakes about the economy in DS9 when they had the episode about the Great Material Continuum and established Ferengi-style trade economics as superior leading to better outcomes.

    It is enshrined in the canon.

    you mean dog-eat-dog, every man for himself, swindle or be swindled way of thinking?

    Actually it was Nog centric and ended up being much more positive about how economics can work.

    As a side note. How does the post picture function? Do I need a URL to put in there or drag and drop from my computer?

    When you got a bunch of Rothschild and big oil wannabes out there, looking to get rich, and getting kicks from **** over as many people as possible, I don't see it as good.

    I'll take whatever the Federation has anything over Ferengi-nomics.

    That episode had Chief O'Brian stuck where he was going to get reamed by Sisko for failing to have parts he needed. And nothing O'Brian could do would save him. Federation economics.

    Nog borrows Sisko's desk, Martok's blood wine, and a few other things. It looks terrible but he asks O'Brian to have a little faith. In the end Sisko's desk is back, Martok has better bloodwine, and they have the parts they need. By applying Ferengi philosophy to a Federation problem. I believe the message was that in moderation the process can work. Done poorly and you have what the rest of the Ferengi became.

    (I meant it when I was asking for help.)


    But then again, the Klingon could have just replicated the blood wine. :) Ferenginomics sorta falls apart with the advent of replicators.
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