Starfleet is a military organization. Its purpose is deception.

oliviaclaire
oliviaclaire Member Posts: 158 Arc User
edited December 2016 in Ten Forward
Space Navy (military fleet)

Wikipedia: Navy

A navy or maritime force is a fleet of waterborne military vessels (watercraft) and its associated naval aviation, both sea-based and land-based. [. . .] In modern usage "navy" used alone always denotes a military fleet. . . .

Naturally, replace "waterborne" with "spaceborne" and so on for a Space Navy.

TOS: "Tomorrow is Yesterday"

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Captain James T. Kirk

CHRISTOPHER: Must have taken quite a lot to build a ship like this.
KIRK: There are only twelve like it in the fleet.
CHRISTOPHER: I see. Did the Navy
KIRK: We're a combined service, Captain. . . .

TOS: "Errand of Mercy"

KIRK: [. . .] In addition to military aid, we can send you specialists, technicians. . . .
[. . .]
KIRK: [. . .] I'm a soldier, not a diplomat. . . .

TOS: "Obession"

KIRK: Very commendable, Ensign. What was your impression of the battle?
GARROVICK: I don't understand, sir.
KIRK: I'm asking for your military appraisal of the techniques used against the creature.

Some believe that Starfleet is NASA and U.S. Navy merged into one, which is the kind of "combined service" that would make a Space Navy. Note that a real-life Navy includes non-combat duties too, but it's still a fleet of military vessels or warships.

Furthermore, compare Starfleet Command to Naval Space Command and Naval Network Warfare Command.

TAS: "The Counter-Clock Incident"

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Robert April, a Federation (Starfleet) Commodore and Ambassador-at-Large

APRIL: I was there in the San Francisco Navy Yards when her [Enterprise's] unit components were built.

Star Trek: The Animated Series

With the release of The Animated Series DVD, the studio appears to have changed its stance, and is leaning towards the animated series being part of established Star Trek canon.

TOS: "Catspaw"

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Lieutenant Vincent DeSalle

DESALLE: Maybe we can't break it, but I'll bet you credits to navy beans we can put a dent in it.

Wikipedia: Navy bean

It is commonly known as the "Navy Bean" due to its use as a staple of United States Navy rations in the 19th century.

Star Trek: Generations, 19th century naval uniforms:

Star-Trek-Generations-02.jpg

DS9: "Rapture"

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Lieutenant Commander Worf

WORF: That will not do. Rifkin commands a starship. Protocol requires he be given equal quarters.
ODO: But he's only a captain.
WORF: It is naval tradition.

Notice that the naval tradition is also ship's protocol.

DS9: "Behind the Lines"

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Miles Edward O'Brien, Senior Chief Petty Officer of Starfleet

DAX: Are you two ever going to be finished?
NOG: Just a few more minutes, Commander.
O'BRIEN: That's Captain. It's an old naval tradition. Whoever's in command of a ship, regardless of rank, is referred to as Captain.

Another naval tradition that's strictly adhered to by Starfleet.

USS Enterprise (CVN-65) was a military aircraft carrier and the flagship of Nuclear Task Force One in the United States Navy. It is one of the drawings on the ship wall (second from the left) in Star Trek: The Motion Picture and in Captain Archer's ready room (pictured below):

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The Enterprise's history is likely already available in the ship's computer library. Yet, the military carrier is being proudly displayed on the walls.

Starfleet Academy corresponds to a naval college or academy such as the United States Naval Academy.

TOS" "The Day of the Dove"

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Leonard McCoy, Chief Medical Officer

MCCOY: How many more men must die before you two [Kirk and Spock] begin to act like military men instead of fools? (leaves)

How can McCoy expect Kirk and Spock to act like military men unless Starfleet is a military?

Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan

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David Marcus, a Federation scientist

CHEKOV (on viewscreen): The order comes from Admiral James T. Kirk.
DAVID: I knew it! I knew it! All along the military [Starfleet] has wanted to get their han...
[. . .]
DAVID: I've tried to tell you before. Scientists have always been pawns of the military [Starfleet].

David Marcus was a Federation scientist who worked on Project Genesis. It's safe enough to say that he would know the difference.

Robert Fletcher’s Costume Design – Forgotten Trek (Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan)

'OK, if this is going to be the navy, let’s hem them look like the navy' [. . .] "It’s normal in any kind of military organization that you don’t have just one uniform". . . .

TNG: "Hide and Q"

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Q

PICARD: Why? At our first meeting you seized my vessel. . . .
[. . .]
Q: [. . .] Seized my vessel. These are the complaints of a closed mind too accustomed to military privileges. . . .

DS9: "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges"

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Julian Subatoi Bashir, Starfleet Chief Medical Officer

BASHIR: Sorry to disappoint you. Admiral Ross and his staff will be discussing the exciting military issues.
[. . .]
BASHIR: How long has Koval been working for Starfleet?
ROSS: He's been providing the Federation with critical military intelligence for over a year. . . .

How can Starfleet discuss its military issues and military intelligence unless it's a military itself?

TNG: "The Measure of a Man"

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Captain Phillipa Louvois, Starfleet Officer Judge Advocate General

PHILLIPA: [. . .] A court martial is standard procedure when a ship is lost. I was doing my duty as an officer of the Judge Advocate General.

Wikipedia: Judge Advocate General's Corps

Judge Advocate General's Corps, also known as JAG or JAG Corps, refers to the legal branch or specialty of a military concerned with military justice and military law.

TOS: "Court Martial"

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Merriam-Webster: Court-martial
  • [A] court for people in the military who are accused of breaking military law.
  • [A] court consisting of commissioned officers and in some instances enlisted personnel for the trial of members of the armed forces or others within its jurisdiction.

Wikipedia: Court-martial

A court-martial (plural courts-martial, as "martial" is postpositive) is a military court. [. . .] Most navies have a standard court-martial which convenes whenever a ship is lost.

In addition, see "What is a court-martial?".

Star Trek cannot redefine the language. No one can guarantee that this definition will change in the future. A dictionary is called a reference book for a reason. Therefore, Starfleet is a Space Navy and a military organization at all times.

Memory Alpha: Reserve activation clause

star-trek-motion-picture-mccoy-720x396.jpg
Leonard McCoy: "They drafted me!"


The reserve activation clause was a Starfleet regulation which was in force during the 2270s. Described as "little-known" and "seldom-used," the clause provided for the recall of a discharged or retired Starfleet officer to active duty in response to a crisis or emergency.

In the mid-2270s, Fleet Admiral Nogura, at the request of Rear Admiral James T. Kirk, recalled Leonard McCoy to active duty in the Starfleet using the reserve activation clause. Upon reporting to the USS Enterprise, Doctor McCoy stated "In simpler language... they drafted me!" (Star Trek: The Motion Picture)

DS9: "The Way of the Warrior"

WORF: I have decided to resign from Starfleet.
O'BRIEN: Resign? What are you talking about?
WORF: I have made up my mind. It is for the best.
[. . .]
SISKO: I'm sorry, Mister Worf, but I can't accept your resignation at this time.

Apparently, Worf could not freely resign either.

Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country

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AIDE-DE-CAMP: This briefing is classified. Ladies and Gentlemen, the C-in-C.
C in C: As you were. I'll break this information down succinctly. The Klingon Empire has roughly fifty years of life left. ...For full details, I am turning this briefing over to Federation Special Envoy.
[. . .]
MILITARY AIDE: Bill, are we talking about mothballing the Starfleet?

AIDE-DE-CAMP

aide-de-camp (ād′dĭ-kămp′)
n. pl. aides-de-camp
A military officer acting as secretary and confidential assistant to a superior officer of general or flag rank.

C in C

commander in chief
n. pl. commanders in chief Abbr. CINC or C in C
  1. The supreme commander of all the armed forces of a nation.
  2. The officer commanding a major armed force.

Military aide: a military assistant.

Mothballed: a term for a reserve fleet.

A reserve fleet is a collection of naval vessels of all types that are fully equipped for service but are not currently needed, and thus partially or fully decommissioned. A reserve fleet is informally said to be "in mothballs" or "mothballed".

More evidence that Starfleet is a Space Navy.

Colonel West, reinstated in the VHS version of Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.

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While identified in dialogue as a "colonel", West wore the uniform of a Starfleet vice admiral (equivalent to a lieutenant general).

The rank of a "colonel" strongly indicates the presence of a Space Marine Corps within Starfleet.

DS9: "Siege of AR-558"

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Reese, a Starfleet soldier stationed on AR-558 in 2375

NOG: That soldier over there. You see his necklace? Those are Ketracel white tubes.
[. . .]
SISKO: Now you listen to me, Quark, because I'm only going to say this one time. I care about Nog and every soldier under my command. Understood? Every single one.

Clearly not a colloquialism when Sisko mentions it.

DS9: "Nor the Battle to the Strong"

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Chief Petty Officer Burke

Burke was described in the script as "a badly wounded Starfleet Lieutenant, his uniform soaked with blood - he's BURKE, a seasoned combat veteran of about forty."

Sounds like career of a soldier.

Memory Alpha: Chief Petty Officer

Chief petty officer (CPO) is an enlisted naval rank, a type of military rank used by the service organizations of different cultures.

TNG: "The Perfect Mate"

KAMALA: Perhaps the ambassador is right. Perhaps I should remain in my quarters.
PICARD: I have confidence in the self-control of my crew, Kamala, but there are guests and civilians on board.

A clear line of dialogue that Picard doesn't consider the crew of the Enterprise to be civilians.

DS9: "The Sound of Her Voice"

KASIDY: I'm a civilian. Isn't it awkward having me aboard a warship?
O'BRIEN: We've had civilians aboard before. It doesn't bother me.

A clear line of dialogue that O'Brien doesn't consider the crew of the Defiant to be civilians.

Rick Berman Talks 18 Years of Trek In Extensive Oral History

Berman notes that veterans feel Sisko is "the most believable" as a military commander of the Star Trek captains.

Memory Alpha: Starfleet

[Nicholas Meyer] recalled, "[Roddenberry] was emphatic that Starfleet was not a military organization but something akin to the Coast Guard. This struck me as manifestly absurd, for what were Kirk's adventures but a species of gunboat diplomacy wherein the Federation (read America, read the Anglo-Saxons) was always right and aliens were – in Kipling's queasy phrase – 'lesser breeds'? Yes, there was lip service to minority participation, but it was clear who was driving the boat."

If, according to MA: Depicting Klingons, Klingons were conceptually meant to represent "space communists" against "US democracy" (LOL!), what is Starfleet if not a representation of the US military in space?

By the way, the official U.S. Navy website uses the .mil extension, which stands for military.

The arguments against it, so far

TNG: "Peak Performance"

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Captain Jean-Luc Picard

PICARD: Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.
[. . .]
RIKER: I prefer brains over brawn as well. I think it's a waste of effort to test our combat skills. It's a minor province in the make-up of a starship captain.

LOL! Then why does a Galaxy-class ship have a dedicated battle bridge and a phaser range while it's simultaneously armed as a warship?

In TNG: "The Enemy", Picard addresses Tomalak in a Romulan Warbird with this line:

PICARD: Commander, both our ships are ready to fight. We have two extremely powerful and destructive arsenals at our command. . . .

In TNG: "Conundrum", when the crew of the USS Enterprise loses their memories, the Galaxy-class Enterprise-D is described as a battleship, based on the ship's specifications:

WORF: I have completed a survey of our tactical systems. We are equipped with ten phaser banks, two hundred and fifty photon torpedoes, and a high capacity shield grid.
MACDUFF: We're a battleship.
WORF: It appears so.

While Worf did not volunteer the description, he did essentially agree with it.

Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home

gillian01.jpg
Dr. Gillian Taylor

GILLIAN: You're not one of those guys from the military, are you? Trying to teach whales to retrieve torpedoes, or some [dip****] stuff like that?
[. . .]
GILLIAN: All right. Who are you? And don't jerk me around any more. I want to know how you know that.
KIRK: We can't tell you that. ...Please, let me finish. I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm towards the whales.

Clearly, Gillian was referring to the military of her time period, and so was Kirk.

Star Trek: Into Darkness

nif_reactor.jpg
Scotty and Kirk arguing

SCOTT: That's what scares me. This is clearly a military operation. ls that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers.
KIRK: Sign for the torpedoes, that's an order.
SCOTT: Right, well, you leave me no choice but to resign my duties.
KIRK: Oh, come on, Scotty.
SCOTT: You're giving me no choice, sir. I will not stand by
KIRK: You're not giving me much of a choice. Will you just make an exception and sign
SCOTT: Do you accept my resignation or not?
KIRK: I do!
KIRK: I do. You are relieved, Mister Scott.

LOL! Maybe Starfleet hasn't told Kirk it's not a military organization yet? And why was Scotty so surprised, considering that the new Enterprise apparently has at least 9-12 individual torpedo tubes, visibly, on each side, and perhaps 72 or more torpedo tubes in total?

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As this post on TrekBBS states:

There are 72 of these torpedo tubes. There are 36 on each side, and they are located on either side of what would be main engineering. . . .

The area where they were being loaded is specifically referred to as the "weapons bay".

Star Trek: Beyond

SCOTT: The Federation, sir, Starfleet. We are not a military agency.

Cannot be a non-military agency with JAG and court-martial (military court) by definition. Bad fiction cannot redefine the language.

Therefore, Star Trek is deception and propaganda.

Voilà! :)

Starfleet-Sam.jpg
Post edited by oliviaclaire on
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Comments

  • theraven2378
    theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,813 Arc User
    Semantics again, in times of peace it's the exploration, diplomatic and scientific arm of the Federation. In times of war, it's task is to defend the federation.

    Even in peacetime, Starfleet ships are equipped to defend themselves.
    NMXb2ph.png
      "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
      -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
    • ryan218
      ryan218 Member Posts: 36,016 Arc User
      The Starfleet Academy point is irrelevant. The British Merchant Navy has a training facility on the coast of the Irish Sea. They are categorically not a military. Despite this, they often coordinated with the Royal Navy during the two World Wars, which I'm sure involved discussing 'military matters'.

      Also, last I checked, civil servants and government officials working in the government military administration (MoD, DoD, etc) have to discuss military matters, but they themselves are not military personnel.

      As for ranks, the Royal Navy have a civilian arm called the Royal Fleet Auxiliary. They use the same rank structure as the Regular Navy, but are technically considered a civilian service. (It's worth noting this is a somewhat blurred distinction, since most RFA ships are armed with basic machine guns, etc.)
    • jonsills
      jonsills Member Posts: 9,726 Arc User
      Good Lord, this again??

      What exactly do you think you're trying to prove, olivia? That there's no trivia you haven't mastered? Congratulations, you're the Uber-Nerd. Now will you please shut up?​​
      Lorna-Wing-sig.png
    • marcusdkane
      marcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
      jonsills wrote: »
      Good Lord, this again??

      What exactly do you think you're trying to prove, olivia? That there's no trivia you haven't mastered? Congratulations, you're the Uber-Nerd. Now will you please shut up?​​

      You know what she's trying to prove, and with this post, pretty conclusively does so... Now getting those who deny Starfleet being a military (or even military-like, such as the USCG) to accept Olivia's conclusions as valid, is a different matter...
    • rattler2
      rattler2 Member Posts: 55,541 Community Moderator
      edited December 2016
      First off... the OP's pointing out of 19th Century navy uniforms is NOT proof. The context of that was they were on the holodeck in full costume to celebrate Worf's promotion in Generations.

      Also the sketch of the carrier Enterprise is NOT proof that Starfleet is a military branch as it was featured aboard the Starship Enterprise as a tribute to previous ships named Enterprise in TMP. A version of that sketch is also seen aboard the NX-01, along with a sketch of the space shuttle Enterprise, which was not military at all.

      While Starfleet performs the functions of a military branch in wartime, it is more akin to the Coast Guard the rest of the time, and also performs scientific research and exploration. All Starfleet vessels are armed out of necessity, and are also multi-roll ships (other than the Defiant class) capable of performing a wide range of functions from scientific research, colonial relief efforts, and yes Combat when needed. Most of the time you'll most likely see a Starship's teeth when dealing with Pirates in a police action, or when they have to defend themselves. The only real time Starfleet made aggressive advances was in wartime. Other than that the Federation has negotiated borders with its neighbors.
      66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
      I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
      The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
      The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
    • marcusdkane
      marcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
      rattler2 wrote: »
      First off... the OP's pointing out of 19th Century navy uniforms is NOT proof. The context of that was they were on the holodeck in full costume to celebrate Worf's promotion in Generations.

      Also the sketch of the carrier Enterprise is NOT proof that Starfleet is a military branch as it was featured aboard the Starship Enterprise as a tribute to previous ships named Enterprise in TMP. A version of that sketch is also seen aboard the NX-01, along with a sketch of the space shuttle Enterprise, which was not military at all.

      While Starfleet performs the functions of a military branch in wartime, it is more akin to the Coast Guard the rest of the time, and also performs scientific research and exploration. All Starfleet vessels are armed out of necessity, and are also multi-roll ships (other than the Defiant class) capable of performing a wide range of functions from scientific research, colonial relief efforts, and yes Combat when needed. Most of the time you'll most likely see a Starship's teeth when dealing with Pirates in a police action, or when they have to defend themselves. The only real time Starfleet made aggressive advances was in wartime. Other than that the Federation has negotiated borders with its neighbors.
      This is true, but it doesn't diminish the validity or accuracy of all the other points ;)

      Yes, USCG is probably the closest contemporary equivalent in terms of a 'military'... Not what we would necessarily call a military in the 21st century, but undeniably 'military' in nature and scope of operations... B)

    • alexmakepeace
      alexmakepeace Member Posts: 10,633 Arc User
      edited December 2016
      DESALLE: Maybe we can't break it, but I'll bet you credits to navy beans we can put a dent in it.

      Wikipedia: Navy bean

      It is commonly known as the "Navy Bean" due to its use as a staple of United States Navy rations in the 19th century.
      Wait... I've eaten navy beans... does that mean I'm... I'm in the navy and didn't know it?!

      1. Aren't they supposed to tell you when you're drafted?
      2. Where's my pay?!
    • ryan218
      ryan218 Member Posts: 36,016 Arc User
      DESALLE: Maybe we can't break it, but I'll bet you credits to navy beans we can put a dent in it.

      Wikipedia: Navy bean

      It is commonly known as the "Navy Bean" due to its use as a staple of United States Navy rations in the 19th century.
      Wait... I've eaten navy beans... does that mean I'm... I'm in the navy and didn't know it?!

      1. Aren't they supposed to tell you when you're drafted?
      2. Where's my pay?!

      3. Where's the 'like' button?! :p
    • icerose20
      icerose20 Member Posts: 18,379 Arc User
      I would like us to table this useless argument over whether Starfleet is a military organization or not, and turn our attention to the scourge of our time. the Epooh-Tribble Axis Alliance.
      Ancient Griffon insult

      That one is so stupid, he lost a Rock/Paper/Scissors game to a Pony.
    • starkaos
      starkaos Member Posts: 11,547 Arc User
      icerose20 wrote: »
      I would like us to table this useless argument over whether Starfleet is a military organization or not, and turn our attention to the scourge of our time. the Epooh-Tribble Axis Alliance.

      Don't forget the Horta. It is the Tribble-Horta-Epohh Axis Alliance or better known as THE Axis Alliance.
    • antonine3258
      antonine3258 Member Posts: 2,391 Arc User
      starkaos wrote: »
      icerose20 wrote: »
      I would like us to table this useless argument over whether Starfleet is a military organization or not, and turn our attention to the scourge of our time. the Epooh-Tribble Axis Alliance.

      Don't forget the Horta. It is the Tribble-Horta-Epohh Axis Alliance or better known as THE Axis Alliance.

      The classic failure of those bringing warnings to consider the effects of the Nanov weighing in as a threat or beneficiary is endemic of this sort of thread. :p
      Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker

      Member Access Denied Armada!

      My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
    • questerius
      questerius Member Posts: 7,785 Arc User
      Not another one of these.
      This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
    • theraven2378
      theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,813 Arc User
      Moderator please
      NMXb2ph.png
        "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
        -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
      • rancidmojo#7824
        rancidmojo#7824 Member Posts: 105 Arc User

        Snip


        I'm going to go out on a limb and tell ya I agree with you before I even look at the replies. I'm guessing there will be some disagreement in this. But hey, for my part, I think you're right.
      • theraven2378
        theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,813 Arc User

        Snip


        I'm going to go out on a limb and tell ya I agree with you before I even look at the replies. I'm guessing there will be some disagreement in this. But hey, for my part, I think you're right.

        It's semantics really
        NMXb2ph.png
          "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
          -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
        • rancidmojo#7824
          rancidmojo#7824 Member Posts: 105 Arc User
          rattler2 wrote: »
          First off... the OP's pointing out of 19th Century navy uniforms is NOT proof. The context of that was they were on the holodeck in full costume to celebrate Worf's promotion in Generations.

          Also the sketch of the carrier Enterprise is NOT proof that Starfleet is a military branch as it was featured aboard the Starship Enterprise as a tribute to previous ships named Enterprise in TMP. A version of that sketch is also seen aboard the NX-01, along with a sketch of the space shuttle Enterprise, which was not military at all.

          While Starfleet performs the functions of a military branch in wartime, it is more akin to the Coast Guard the rest of the time, and also performs scientific research and exploration. All Starfleet vessels are armed out of necessity, and are also multi-roll ships (other than the Defiant class) capable of performing a wide range of functions from scientific research, colonial relief efforts, and yes Combat when needed. Most of the time you'll most likely see a Starship's teeth when dealing with Pirates in a police action, or when they have to defend themselves. The only real time Starfleet made aggressive advances was in wartime. Other than that the Federation has negotiated borders with its neighbors.
          This is true, but it doesn't diminish the validity or accuracy of all the other points ;)

          Yes, USCG is probably the closest contemporary equivalent in terms of a 'military'... Not what we would necessarily call a military in the 21st century, but undeniably 'military' in nature and scope of operations... B)

          The USCG is a branch of the US Navy, so they are "Military". Hell, when I was an Army recruiter I used to hang out with the USCG recruiter sometimes.
        • khan5000
          khan5000 Member Posts: 3,005 Arc User
          The USCG is not a branch of the Navy.
          Your pain runs deep.
          Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
        • timelords1701
          timelords1701 Member Posts: 414 Arc User
          I see "Kanye" has gotten hold of another computer!..
          Give it up op, your insane dribble on this subject is only belittling yourself further.
          Its the christmas season, go spend some quality time in the real world with your family, maybe they will appreciate your nonsensicle views better than most of us..
        • rancidmojo#7824
          rancidmojo#7824 Member Posts: 105 Arc User
          khan5000 wrote: »
          The USCG is not a branch of the Navy.

          I stand corrected. The Coast Guard is part of Homeland Security. Correct me if I'm wrong, but before the Department of Homeland Security existed they were under the Navy I believe. I'll have to ask an old classmate of mine who was in the Navy in the past. I was Army.
        • khan5000
          khan5000 Member Posts: 3,005 Arc User
          As far as I know they've always been their own thing. In times of war they do come under the Department of the Navy.
          Your pain runs deep.
          Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
        • rancidmojo#7824
          rancidmojo#7824 Member Posts: 105 Arc User
          khan5000 wrote: »
          As far as I know they've always been their own thing. In times of war they do come under the Department of the Navy.

          I'll have to check, but before Homeland security they were under the Department of the Navy, just like the National Guard is considered under whichever state they are in but they are part of the Department of the Army. (or Air Force if you're talking ANG).

          But as I said, I wasn't in the Navy, and I haven't looked into how they work in the DoD too much because I never had a need to, really.

          At any rate I personally think that Starfleet is the Federation's military force, but they have a defensive role. I've never understood why its been a bone of contention for a long time for Trek fans. Being military doesn't mean "aggressively attack people and start wars" or anything. (When I worked at the Pentagon in the mid-90s protesters would show up every Monday like clockwork and cause a ruckus. I always wondered why are they here instead of at the Capitol building? We (the soldiers, sailors, marines, airmen and yes, coast guard) don't declare wars or say where we're going when, we just carry out the orders given to us by the civilian government....which is across the Potomac)

          But I digress....(Sorry...I miss the old days. I was happy to retire but I did have a lot of good times in the Army as well as bad). Back to Starfleet....

          I think the problem is that in TOS SF was depicted as a military organization. But in the TNG era it got muddled with some not well thought out concepts. I don't actually want to say what I think they are because I've been on this road before. Maybe the new series will clarify some things. Or they'll retcon stuff...which will of course lead to many many more debates in many forums.

        • evilmark444
          evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,768 Arc User
          edited December 2016
          As far as I'm concerned, Starfleet is and always has been a military organization, and to say it's not is insulting to anyone who has served in real life. I say this because the implication is that humanity has evolved and Starfleet is somehow better for not using the (accurate) label of 'military', even though it operates the same way, and performs the same duties as, a real life military.

          All that said, the OP is a well known troll and I will not be participating in this debate any further, I said everything I have to say the last time the OP started a thread on this topic:
          http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1219709/proof-that-starfleet-is-a-naval-force-military/p1
          rattler2 wrote: »
          While Starfleet performs the functions of a military branch in wartime, it is more akin to the Coast Guard the rest of the time, and also performs scientific research and exploration.

          As I mentioned several times in Olivia's last topic, the US Coast Guard is a branch of the US military. While I understand it's not that way in every country, it's important to make that point regardless because the show itself is American in origin, so the US Coast Guard would have been the most familiar to Gene and everyone else involved in the creation of Star Trek.
          khan5000 wrote: »
          As far as I know they've always been their own thing. In times of war they do come under the Department of the Navy.

          When I went to a MEPS station for processing into the USMC (physical tests and such that you have to do before you can be scheduled to ship out to boot camp), Coast Guard recruits were there as well going through the same testing and taking the same oath that everyone joining the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine Corps did ...
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        • rancidmojo#7824
          rancidmojo#7824 Member Posts: 105 Arc User
          As far as I'm concerned, Starfleet is and always has been a military organization, and to say it's not is insulting to anyone who has served in real life. I say this because the implication is that humanity has evolved and Starfleet is somehow better for not using the (accurate) label of 'military', even though it operates the same way, and performs the same duties as, a real life military.

          All that said, the OP is a well known troll and I will not be participating in this debate any further, I said everything I have to say the last time the OP started a thread on this topic:
          http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1219709/proof-that-starfleet-is-a-naval-force-military/p1

          I don't know anything about the OP. I was around when the game launched (in open beta) and I only "come around" sporadically. But I remember this being argued a lot in the forums back then.

          But as someone above pointed out, this is mostly semantics. Phil Farrand's Nitpicker's Guides (I can't remember which one) had a section on whether SF was military and it basically was a "if it quacks like a duck...." thing. I tend to agree. I'm a retired vet, but even on Active duty its not like I could say "Well, I'm basically a technician, I only pick up a weapon when I HAVE TO so I'm not really military".

          I know you said you don't want to be in this conversation anymore, but I have issues with the "evolved" humanity thing in Trek myself. PM me if you ever want to discuss them like gentlemen. (I'm not saying you aren't a gentleman *or lady, I don't know your gender*. I just know from experience that it would be like dropping a match in a puddle of gasoline in the forums)
        • hawku001x
          hawku001x Member Posts: 10,658 Arc User
          edited December 2016
          Starfleet is a mashup of everything. They'll military, science and engineer until their hands fall off. They represent the ambition for all career divisions of humanity. They also make julienne fries.
        • jonsills
          jonsills Member Posts: 9,726 Arc User
          edited December 2016
          From Wikipedia, which is probably fairly accurate on a subject as non-controversial as this:
          The history of the United States Coast Guard goes back to the United States Revenue Cutter Service, which was founded on 4 August 1790 as part of the Department of the Treasury. The Revenue Cutter Service and the United States Life-Saving Service were merged to become the Coast Guard per 14 U.S.C. § 1 which states: "The Coast Guard as established January 28, 1915, shall be a military service and a branch of the armed forces of the United States at all times." In 1939, the United States Lighthouse Service was merged into the Coast Guard. The Coast Guard itself was moved to the Department of Transportation in 1967, and on 25 February 2003 it became part of the Department of Homeland Security. However, under 14 U.S.C. § 3 as amended by section 211 of the Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation Act of 2006, upon the declaration of war and when Congress so directs in the declaration, or when the President directs, the Coast Guard operates as a service in the Department of the Navy.

          So, except during times of war or special Presidential direction, that's a negative on the USCG being part of the Navy. (Department of Transportation? Really?)​​
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        • alexmakepeace
          alexmakepeace Member Posts: 10,633 Arc User
          You know, it seems like the role of militaries is expanding beyond the traditional role of throwing weapons at the enemy until they die. Modern militaries do humanitarian things like disaster relief. In this way, organizations like the US Navy may be more like Starfleet than they are like the US Navy of the 1940s and 50s. So Starfleet could easily be a military organization, but what it means to be a military organization in the 23rd century is different from what we might think of.
        • jonsills
          jonsills Member Posts: 9,726 Arc User
          You know, it seems like the role of militaries is expanding beyond the traditional role of throwing weapons at the enemy until they die. Modern militaries do humanitarian things like disaster relief. In this way, organizations like the US Navy may be more like Starfleet than they are like the US Navy of the 1940s and 50s. So Starfleet could easily be a military organization, but what it means to be a military organization in the 23rd century is different from what we might think of.
          It's already different from what the OP seems to believe. Ask the people of Mauritius in 1975, when USS Enterprise (CVN-65) led disaster-relief efforts. Or ask the Haitians about Joint Task Force Matthew (carrier USS George Washington, amphibious assault landing craft USS Iwo Jima and USS Mesa Verde), assigned to carry out disaster-relief efforts in the wake of Hurricane Matthew earlier this year. Fly with the USAF's 53rd Weather Reconnaissance Squadron, the "Hurricane Hunters", as they probe the secrets of this planet's largest and most destructive weather phenomena - hurricanes and tornadoes.

          Then again, by the OP's "reasoning", NASA itself is an Evil Military Organization, because the pilots have always been stalwart USAF jet fighter pilots, brave and true. And they even wear uniform jumpsuits in space! We must shrink in horror from such uncivilized militarism!! :/​​
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        • ryan218
          ryan218 Member Posts: 36,016 Arc User
          And HMS Enterprise is an Antarctic Survey vessel. It's true that militaries seem to be returning to a more multi-role nature such as they held prior to the 19th Century.

          Addressing the OP's latest ranting, however... Illegal subspace weapons? Really? The Intrepid-Class was not 'armed' with tricobalt devices - Tuvok jury-rigged those in the field. Furthermore, they only form subspace rifts if used in excess. If I set light to a Jerry can full of unleaded petrol, it will explode - that doesn't make unleaded petrol an explosive. Furthermore, the Intrepid was designed after First Contact was made with the Borg - Starfleet's priorities shifted dramatically from that point. Suddenly, having a Light Cruiser capable of being fielded in large numbers and patrolling distant sectors while heavier fleet elements remained on hand in case of an emergency closer to home was a logical defensive move.