Are ship captains always Tactical?

trekbrony · November 2016

I'm trying to adhere to canon.

letsfadeaway · November 2016

No.
Best example in "hard" canon as it was in one the series itself and not books/etc. :
Dr. Beverly (Crusher) Picard was captain of the U.S.S. Pasteur in "All Good Things" (ST:TNG finale)

stofsk · November 2016

Picard and Janeway were in the science division before moving to command. Picard was implied to be pretty heavily into archaeology to the point where he almost didn't join Starfleet ('The Chase' made explicit mention of this but it was already well-established how archaeology was a passion of his in previous episodes). Janeway was the science officer on that ship she was on with Tom Paris' dad as captain.

Sisko was engineering I am almost certain. I think he was chief engineer on Admiral Leyton's ship which fought the T'Zenkethi (S4's 'Homefront/Paradise Lost' two parter).

I don't think Kirk's background was as firmly established. He says in 'Errand of Mercy' that he's a soldier. Implying a tactical focus in STO terms.

Archer was a pilot IIRC? I think that means he'd be in the equivalent of tactical in STO terms as well.

However it's important to remember the canon is different to STO in very important ways. For one thing, in canon there's a command track for Starfleet officers which is implied to be separate from divisional branches. It's where you get weird things like Troi taking the bridge officer's exam in order to get a promotion to Commander. In real life military terms she'd be a staff officer rather than a line (i.e. command) officer. But I barely know what I'm talking about with this so I'll shut up.

Bottom line is your captain can be any career path you want.

szim · November 2016

No. Captains can come from all different backgrounds. Geordi LaForge was an engineer and eventually became Captain. As has been mentioned, Beverly Crusher was a medical officer and achieved the same.

It seems that at some point you would have to change over to command in order to become captain. At least Michael Eddington, short time security chief of DS9 mentioned at some point that in order to get promoted in rank he would no longer be able to be a security officer.

trekbrony · November 2016

Do all captains in STO wear red is what I'm asking.

rangerryu · November 2016

trekbrony wrote: »

Do all captains in STO wear red is what I'm asking.

in terms of the game storyline/uniform guide Starfleet officers of Captain rank wear white,red and black
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/6005803 but obviously you can wear whatever you want.

stofsk · November 2016

A strict adherence to canon would mean they should wear red, yes. That said, I can think of at least three examples where characters were nominally in command but didn't bother changing uniforms.

Data as acting CO of the USS Sutherland in 'Redemption part 2' where he wore operations gold the whole time.

Data as acting CO of the USS Enterprise in 'Gambit' two parter where Picard was presumed KIA and Riker was MIA. Worf was his first officer and both continued to wear the operations gold.

Jadzia Dax in 'Behind the Lines' and the early part of 'Favor the Bold' where she was given command of the USS Defiant and stayed in science blue the whole time. Actually noteworthy over the Data examples because IIRC she was outright made the CO of the Defiant rather than being acting-CO.

fluffymoof · November 2016

trekbrony wrote: »

Do all captains in STO wear red is what I'm asking.

Yes, because that's the color of command officers' uniforms.

trekbrony · November 2016

stocks, if that was true then how come Kelvin!Chekov wear Operations when he was acting Chief Engineer?

annemarie30 · November 2016

In cannon worf went from command to ops/tac/security back to command

saurializard · November 2016

trekbrony wrote: »

stocks, if that was true then how come Kelvin!Chekov wear Operations when he was acting Chief Engineer?

Because Operations include Engineering, so they used the same red during this period. The switch from red to gold for Operations and gold to red for Command happened between TOS and TNG.

leemwatson · November 2016

No, it's just the uniform. Out of 11 toons I have, only 2 are Tactical.

duncanidaho11 · November 2016

trekbrony wrote: »

stocks, if that was true then how come Kelvin!Chekov wear Operations when he was acting Chief Engineer?

Kelvin Chekov had greater presence of mind, or a bigger costume budget.

rattler2 · November 2016

Also Scotty in the TMP movies was a Captain, and I believe he still wore the era's Engie colors.

duncanidaho11 · November 2016

rattler2 wrote: »

Also Scotty in the TMP movies was a Captain, and I believe he still wore the era's Engie colors.

He was still acting as Chief Engineer though.

artan42 · November 2016

rattler2 wrote: »

Also Scotty in the TMP movies was a Captain, and I believe he still wore the era's Engie colors.

Captain ranked, not Captain in position.

Unknown · November 2016

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saurializard · November 2016

darthmeow504 wrote: »

In screen canon, Command is it's own department and educational / specialization track separate from other departments, and it has its own color which is gold in TOS and red in TNG and later series.

In the game, command officers still retain a specialty in the Science, Engineering, or Tactical branches (because MMO Trinity, which I think is dumb but what can you do?). It's appropriate to keep your captain in the color of their specialty, red for Tac, gold for Eng and blue for Sci.

Not exactly:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/6005853
That said:
"This commanding officer service uniform variant is only worn on the service uniform. If a commanding officer is wearing the dress or tactical uniform, they use the standard officer color scheme."

Unknown · November 2016

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angrytarg · November 2016

STO mixes canon colours with a MMO trinity. There is no "tactical" branch in canon but a "command" track which includes "tactical" positions. But STO uses a very simplified model so people not familiar with trek recognize the classic "damage guy/healer guy/tanking guy" scheme.

marcusdkane · November 2016

trekbrony wrote: »

Do all captains in STO wear red is what I'm asking.

Canonically, they should be... (unless they're still in 23rd Century uniform, of course, and then gold...) I've seen captains in the social zones wearing all manner of costume and colors... >_<

trekbrony wrote: »

stocks, if that was true then how come Kelvin!Chekov wear Operations when he was acting Chief Engineer?

Seriously?

Because engineering has always come under the branch of ship operations...

Red in TOS era, gold in TNG-Voyager era... STO moves security from a 'ships operations' role, to a 'command branch' role, and re-brands that all as 'tactical'...

What color uniform has Scotty always worn? Red or Gold?

Chekov took over Scotty's position, meaning he had to wear the appropriate uniform...

--

On a personal level, with my own BOFFs, I use the combadges to make the following distinction: I consider Ship-based console operators as the 'command branch' aspect of tactical, so they have combadges with star... Ground-based security officers, I consider as 'operations branch' (hands on, rather than pushing a button) aspect of tactical, so they have combadges with the operations logo...

One of my Klingon BOFFs is a science officer, but I have her wearing tactical red, with a sciences combadge on the notion that her field of specialization is applied sciences (as in the combat applications of scientific principles, not the theoretical or intellectual disciplines)

But of course, those last points are just my own personal spins, not game-canon

Unknown · November 2016

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marcusdkane · November 2016

darthmeow504 wrote: »

marcusdkane wrote: »

On a personal level, with my own BOFFs, I use the combadges to make the following distinction: I consider Ship-based console operators as the 'command branch' aspect of tactical, so they have combadges with star... Ground-based security officers, I consider as 'operations branch' (hands on, rather than pushing a button) aspect of tactical, so they have combadges with the operations logo...

One of my Klingon BOFFs is a science officer, but I have her wearing tactical red, with a sciences combadge on the notion that her field of specialization is applied sciences (as in the combat applications of scientific principles, not the theoretical or intellectual disciplines)

But of course, those last points are just my own personal spins, not game-canon

Beyond the player benefit of enjoying character customization, it's stuff like this that makes me so glad the options are there. It always amazes and delights me to see how players and fans go above and beyond what they're given to create unique but still oh-so-in-theme concepts within the Star Trek setting. I'm glad the tools are there because players like you spin them into rich details to get your headcanon just right, and it is endlessly fascinating. It's the players that really apply their hearts and minds into enriching the setting and immersing in it that make this game much more than just another MMO. It's that kind of fan engagement that makes this truly Star Trek.

Many thanks

I can understand why STO went the way they have with the 'MMO Trinity' classes, the only issue with that being, that in canon Trek terms, Damage and Tanks would both be wearing the same color, so I can understand why they shifted things to make a simpler distinction... I think I make the distinction that I do with the combadges, because the uniform menu lists the star as 'command', rather than 'tactical', which is why I think of security officers as 'operations' based, with 'console operators' being 'command' based

Unknown · November 2016

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bonzodog01 · November 2016

Worth noting by the way that only Starfleet use different colored uniforms for the different classes. The Romulan Republic kind of has a formal uniform, but its very much more casual, and Klingons seem to have a variety of uniforms depending on the ship.

jonsills · November 2016

rattler2 wrote: »

Also Scotty in the TMP movies was a Captain, and I believe he still wore the era's Engie colors.

In ST3:TSFS, in which Scotty got his promotion to Captain, he was assigned as Chief Engineer of the Excelsior. Hence, he wore the uniform of an Engineer, not a Command officer.

In STO, we're explicitly informed that each ship's captain can set their own ship's uniform; this has precedent in the US military, where a base commander can permit alterations to the standard uniform within certain limits (for instance, when I served at Offutt AFB in Nebraska, our uniform at SAC was blue formal (not dress, that called for the jacket as well); however, during the summer months the base commander gave us a modified uniform requirement in which we could wear the short-sleeve undress shirt). Most of my captains use either 23c standard or the Odyssey uniform, save my main, who uses a variation on the Odyssey admiral's uniform (black body, red stripe and shoulder strap, blue yoke to reflect his Science background, Command clasp on the strap as he's CO of USS Lorna Wing).

marcusdkane · November 2016

darthmeow504 wrote: »

marcusdkane wrote: »

darthmeow504 wrote: »

marcusdkane wrote: »

On a personal level, with my own BOFFs, I use the combadges to make the following distinction: I consider Ship-based console operators as the 'command branch' aspect of tactical, so they have combadges with star... Ground-based security officers, I consider as 'operations branch' (hands on, rather than pushing a button) aspect of tactical, so they have combadges with the operations logo...

One of my Klingon BOFFs is a science officer, but I have her wearing tactical red, with a sciences combadge on the notion that her field of specialization is applied sciences (as in the combat applications of scientific principles, not the theoretical or intellectual disciplines)

But of course, those last points are just my own personal spins, not game-canon

Beyond the player benefit of enjoying character customization, it's stuff like this that makes me so glad the options are there. It always amazes and delights me to see how players and fans go above and beyond what they're given to create unique but still oh-so-in-theme concepts within the Star Trek setting. I'm glad the tools are there because players like you spin them into rich details to get your headcanon just right, and it is endlessly fascinating. It's the players that really apply their hearts and minds into enriching the setting and immersing in it that make this game much more than just another MMO. It's that kind of fan engagement that makes this truly Star Trek.

Many thanks I can understand why STO went the way they have with the 'MMO Trinity' classes, the only issue with that being, that in canon Trek terms, Damage and Tanks would both be wearing the same color, so I can understand why they shifted things to make a simpler distinction... I think I make the distinction that I do with the combadges, because the uniform menu lists the star as 'command', rather than 'tactical', which is why I think of security officers as 'operations' based, with 'console operators' being 'command' based

I probably wouldn't do it the exact same way myself, but what you've presented makes perfect sense on its own merits and being exposed to other ideas like yours gets my own creative juices flowing. I mean, why wouldn't it be organized that way? It's perfectly logical, and your captain is smart to organize it that way. Mine would probably do it a bit different but they're different people with their own ideas of things. Comparing and contrasting ideas like that is great for firing the imagination and getting me thinking deeper about the details of things, which really gets me deeper immersed into the setting and expands the vistas of how I think about it all.

You've also given me a new perspective on the concept of the MMO Trinity in the game, which as a Trek purist is something I've hated. It didn't occur to me that it might be a way to help new players who might not be terribly familiar with Star Trek but do have experience with other MMOs to adapt to the game. From that perspective, maybe it's not as bad as I thought. I still would prefer a more canon approach, but you definitely gave me a different way of looking at it. Thanks!

No worries

The thing is, I've never played an MMO before (not sure if a few levels of Runescape before getting bored really counts

) my earliest memory is of watching The Doomsday Machine, and I've always loved Trek, but it made sense for the game to be presented as it has been... Trek's also no stranger to multiple-realities, so I just consider this one of those (or rather, given all the others who play with their own takes on the game (ie HALO armors >_< ) convergences or nexus points where reallities all kind of bleed through onto each other

stofsk · November 2016

angrytarg wrote: »

STO mixes canon colours with a MMO trinity. There is no "tactical" branch in canon but a "command" track which includes "tactical" positions. But STO uses a very simplified model so people not familiar with trek recognize the classic "damage guy/healer guy/tanking guy" scheme.

To be fair on STO, it may not be explicitly canonical but it still feels appropriate to have tactical=command. In 'Tapestry' Picard became a Lieutenant J.G. science guy on the Enterprise. When he talked to Riker and Troi about him feeling he has command potential he mentioned transferring to engineering or security. That kind of implies that being in the science division isn't enough for command track careers* but being in security (and engineering, so operations division) was a stepping stone.

In addition tactical training is implied to be part of officer career training and promotion. Ensign Ro left the show in early S6 and returned in late S7 a FULL lieutenant (i.e. she got promoted twice from ensign during her absence), after having done an advanced tactical training course.

*Then again, Troi took the bridge officer's exam and she's a staff officer.

salazarraze · November 2016

Red uniforms in STO have nothing to do with Red uniforms in the shows. Geordi La Forge wears red in the Voyager episode which shows him as a Captain of a Galaxy class ship. And we all know that La Forge is an engineer in the canon Star Trek sense.

jamieblanchard · November 2016

Also, isn't there a command green for TOS uniforms?

And yes, I also enjoy seeing the variety I see on people when doing this and that at Earth Spacedock (( and KDF equivalent when on KDF toons )), ranging from canon style unis, TOS, to flat out tactical looking outfits. I myself also use a WW2 inspired uniform on my own toons.

marcusdkane · November 2016

jamieblanchard wrote: »

Also, isn't there a command green for TOS uniforms?

And yes, I also enjoy seeing the variety I see on people when doing this and that at Earth Spacedock (( and KDF equivalent when on KDF toons )), ranging from canon style unis, TOS, to flat out tactical looking outfits. I myself also use a WW2 inspired uniform on my own toons.

Yes, Kirk's wrap-around uniform variant was green

I've heard that the reqular uniform was supposed to be green, but something about how the material filmed something something, but that was only something I vaguely remember reading online somewhere at some point, so I wouldn't like to say how correct that is...

Are ship captains always Tactical?

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