The t'liss has the enhanded battle cloak so if you built a proper torpedo build on it, it could take anything but the cheesiest of cheesy invul builds.
I also understand it has some entropy thing that does a ton of damage. It's probably one of the most "OP" ships in sto.
The Fleet T'varro [T6] is just as good at being a torpedo boat as the T'liss. Arguably better, since the Fleet T'varro can get +10% shield penetration for torps and the T'liss cannot.
The T'liss is a better science ship than torpedo ship. The Ominous device grants +20% All Damage, which boosts science/temporal damage. Combined with the Vaadwaur Anchor and you can get some nice damage numbers without filling every slot with +Partgens consoles.
The Fleet T'Varo vs. the 23rd Century Promo T'Liss is almost as fun an argument as the Which T6 Connie is better debate.
As you can probably guess I grew up reading comic books and the whole "Who would win in a fight, Superman or the Hulk?" style of question is one I will always get a kick out of!
I mean this with 100% sincerity, these are the kinds of arguments I always felt Forums were for!
I'm pretty sick of seeing this argument of "It's on them". PWE/Cryptic made a decision to release the ship in this way. That decision is -theirs-. If people don't like that decision, they are allowed that, every bit as much as you are allowed to be fine with it. This rarity is artificial. Every other Enterprise ship model can be picked up relatively easily, but the one that started it all, the one that many of us have been begging for since launch, which we were repeatedly told we would never get? That one is only available through rare drop in a limited time offer.
I think this was a serious jerk move, made jerkier by the fact that they pulled it a good while after letting people think the JJ Connie was all they were going to get. Sure, a lot of us were holding out hope, but they sure weren't about to say anything and undercut the sales of those master keys.
Funny thing is, I have the ship, and I love flying it, but you know why I have it?
Because a friend of mine, who was a lifetime sub from a long way back, lost interest in the game because of these kind of shenanigans, and so his account had acquired a decent cache of zen from his abandoned stipend, so when he heard about this, he came back to dump it on some boxes, got lucky, and gave me the ship. I have mine through the charity of one of the casualties of PWE's business practices.
You might not give a ****. That's fine, you're not obligated to. But people are allowed to be annoyed when PWE's business practices block them off from accessing game content that they've been lobbying for for years, and we're also allowed to say so if we think these practices are toxic for the game and the community in the long run.
You can cry and complain all you like, it is what it is. Again, no one is blocking anyone from buying a T6 Connie. They are in-game and they are available to everyone. Either pony up the funds to buy one or don't.
Nobody's "crying", but way to be needlessly dismissive.
When a business makes a decision that is against the best interest of its customers in order to make an extra buck, the customers have a right to complain.
Yeah, it's available. For a huge sunk cost in time and resources. A sunk cost that many casual players literally can't afford. That's the point: We think it's overpriced.
And it's also a paradigm shift. No main-universe federation cruiser (Or KDF battlecruiser, or Romulan warbird, for that matter) has ever been gated behind a lottery box before, and honestly, I do not want this to become the new standard for how regular faction ships are delivered to us in the future.
No...no you don't. Do you think you have a right to complain that a porche costs too much and is it's against the best interest of it's customer when you are NOT A CUSTOMER but just some rube who can't afford one drooling over one? This item aint for EVERYONE...it's for the premier players that either have a lot of time invested in this game or money...or both. By a lot of time, I mean actively play the game for at least one hour a day for 3 years with minimal effort put into the game. That is what is required to have BILLIONS of EC. If that ain't you...then you ain't a customer and you have zero rights to complain. And what is this WE comment? YOU think it is overpriced...in which case, YOU choose to not buy it. Those who can't afford it can't buy it. Those of us who don't want it won't buy it...and those who want it and can afford it WILL buy it and be glad that the can at all. It is not toxic to the community unless the community is already toxic. This forum is...the game community thankfully is not this forum and knows better then to be toxic players like you.
^This^ is the truth.
When you see "TRIBBLE" in my posts, it's because I manually typed "TRIBBLE" and censored myself.
Then kiss Star Trek Online goodbye. Becuase the player base will freak if it does.
If by "playerbase" you mean "a select few", then yes I would agree. Just from my own experience in seeing the number of JJ-Trek and TOS connies floating about, there are quite a lot of people who have no issue paying a premium for rare items.
No I mean as in most of the player base becuause you don't see any of those ships being the majority in game, that's still the c-store ships.
Really? I think event ships outnumber c-store ships in ESD and Q'onoS.
No, not really.
How about the CDF stop arguing for something idiotic. Because thats what potientially mandatory lockbox ships (which they will become if they raise the level cap again and this is the only way to get T7 ship) is, idiotic.
No...no you don't. Do you think you have a right to complain that a porche costs too much and is it's against the best interest of it's customer when you are NOT A CUSTOMER but just some rube who can't afford one drooling over one? This item aint for EVERYONE...it's for the premier players that either have a lot of time invested in this game or money...or both. By a lot of time, I mean actively play the game for at least one hour a day for 3 years with minimal effort put into the game. That is what is required to have BILLIONS of EC. If that ain't you...then you ain't a customer and you have zero rights to complain. And what is this WE comment? YOU think it is overpriced...in which case, YOU choose to not buy it. Those who can't afford it can't buy it. Those of us who don't want it won't buy it...and those who want it and can afford it WILL buy it and be glad that the can at all. It is not toxic to the community unless the community is already toxic. This forum is...the game community thankfully is not this forum and knows better then to be toxic players like you.
I will addendum you alongside the people who make tons of EC are the ones who are graced with lady luck but in general you are right this ship is rare for a reason and i have seen actually a fair amount of T6 Connies as well as the occasional T'Liss. As for the D7 those cruisers most likely are in the hands of the DPS masters due to it being a extremely potent battlecruiser.
When somebody stupid says it's a stupid idea and when people who make a living with it and have done so sucessfully for 6 years says it's a good idea
Um, you must have missed the part where they didn't put main faction ships in the lockbox or promo box except this one time in those 6 years, as in it wasn't the only place to get new ships during that time.
Were I you, I would start getting used to the idea of this becoming the norm instead of the exception.
Then kiss Star Trek Online goodbye. Becuase the player base will freak if it does.
Not likely. I can easily see a day in which special faction ships are obtainable via promo packs. And the players will still buy them.
I doubt it, most the general consensus I get on this is that people seem to accept it this time becuase they figure its a "CBS made them do it" thing. Besides they'd probably run out of lockbox and promo ship stat ideas if they started doing more than usual.
When somebody stupid says it's a stupid idea and when people who make a living with it and have done so sucessfully for 6 years says it's a good idea
Um, you must have missed the part where they didn't put main faction ships in the lockbox or promo box except this one time in those 6 years, as in it wasn't the only place to get new ships during that time.
I consider the True Way a main faction in this game. And every single True Way faction ship has been either lockbox or promo pack. Including the brand new T6 ones that are Console Only.
My Cardassians have to gamble like base Ferengi to get their ships dammit!
Were I you, I would start getting used to the idea of this becoming the norm instead of the exception.
Then kiss Star Trek Online goodbye. Becuase the player base will freak if it does.
Not likely. I can easily see a day in which special faction ships are obtainable via promo packs. And the players will still buy them.
I doubt it, most the general consensus I get on this is that people seem to accept it this time becuase they figure its a "CBS made them do it" thing. Besides they'd probably run out of lockbox and promo ship stat ideas if they started doing more than usual.
It's actually quite plausible. Remember Mirror lock box Ships? They used to be on par with C-Store 9 console ships which were max level at one point. The difference between them and the C-Store ships was their seating being reversed between sci/tac/engineering plus the mirror skin.
I could EASILY see a day in which we have Intel Scimitars, Intel Odysseys, and a myriad of other ships available via lock boxes and promo packs. Imagine a future C-Store command Sovereign which would be rather boring due to all the Hero Command ships that we have. But imagine when they later release an Intel or Temporal version as a lock box or promo ship. It's probably coming and I wouldn't be shocked if we see something like this sooner rather than later.
When you see "TRIBBLE" in my posts, it's because I manually typed "TRIBBLE" and censored myself.
Yeah, I can see this game headed toward that scenario. And that's not a bad thing.
We use the term "space barbie" all the time around here but sometimes forget the deeper meaning. We are Trek fans. We go to cons. We dress up like Klingons or Borg or Vulcans. We buy plastic phasers. We buy Klingon language books. We buy model ships. We buy communicator pins. We collect stuff.
This game is now offering digital collectibles. To an audience that is already open to the concept of buying that stuff. And the game continually changes. There was a time when they didn't offer ships for sale in the store. Just new skins. It was more profitable to offer ships. So they changed and went that route.
With these new releases, they may be changing again. And that has good sides and bad sides.
But here's a fun activity ... this is the list (I think it's complete) of neutral faction ships which are all from some sort of premium method to obtain them (Promo pack, Lockbox, Event ... although a couple are from the store too as I see the Temporal Faction Neutral ships there too)
I have TWO premium ships that were from lockboxes or promo packs. I have zero Lobi ships. And I have zero event ships. I didn't feel most of them were worth my time or money to obtain. Except for two.
Play what you like. Play what makes you happy. But realize that the game is likely to change and just considering the size of that list we all need to realize that the lockbox/premium path of ship release is so far past the point of no return that arguing about it is not going to accomplish much. Like I see a lot of posts that argue against buying a lockbox ship outright and it uses the "extreme" example of "If no one were to gamble, then no ships would be available." ... In a vaccuum that might be true. But look at that list. People have already gambled! There's no turning back. There's enough gambling long since built into the economy that in practical terms, it's now at a point where if you want a premium ship you can gamble or you can pay for it outright. The choice is now yours to determine if that price suits you. I never liked the Cardassians enough to feel paying hundreds of millions of EC for a Galor was worth it to me. Instead I waited for a ship that was worth it to me.
No I mean as in most of the player base becuause you don't see any of those ships being the majority in game, that's still the c-store ships.
Heck you barely see T6 TOS Connies flying around.
On the contrary, I've seen quite a few of them already. Seems to me there are quite a lot of people who are able to afford them.
I suspect there are lot of people like me - who wouldn't touch lockboxes / promo packs normally, but make an exception for the ships in the Kelvin and 23c boxes. On that basis, I'd expect to see far *more* of those ships than their non-faction counterparts. Heck, I've spent as much on STO in the last 2 months as the preceding 2 years - but that probably reflects on the lack of things I wanted to buy before. No-one outside of a small minority of trolls and DPS fanatics insists that you need to buy lockbox / lobi ships to play the game.
Anyway, what the protest crowd conveniently forget is that while the Kelvin/23c ships are canon, A-grade choices, there are plenty of almost-as-good alternatives available; whether it's the Fleet Paladin and K't'inga for TOS fans, or Raiders and Command Cruisers... it's not like players are short of very potent, stylish choices from the C-store. And while the event ships may not be factional, they are solid designs with stats on a par with Fleet T6s. Cryptic are exploiting the iconic status of the KT and 23c ships, certainly, but it's not like there aren't plenty of cheaper, effective alternatives.
When a business makes a decision that is against the best interest of its customers in order to make an extra buck, the customers have a right to complain.
How is it "against the best interests of its customers" when customers have repeatedly stated over the years they are willing to pay a premium price for it?
First off, you're assuming that a small vocal minority of desperate people speak for the entire customer base, which is absurd on its face. -I- would be willing to buy a Cstore package in a heartbeat, as would many people. Not everybody that wanted this was willing to pay WHATEVER IT TAKES (tm). The rest of us still get to have an opinion on the matter.
Secondly, even if they were willing to pay the asked price, you're assuming that consumers consistently know and act on what's in their interest, especially when there are mechanisms involved that are explicitly designed to capitalize on biases in human nature. RNG giveaways are manipulative and take advantage of the same biases that cause people to break themselves gambling.
Yeah, it's available. For a huge sunk cost in time and resources. A sunk cost that many casual players literally can't afford. That's the point: We think it's overpriced.
Then don't buy it and move on. Do you stand outside 5 star restaurants and complain that their premier dishes are too expensive? Do you go to high-end luxury automobile dealerships and complain that you can't afford their luxury cars?
5 Star restaurants and high end luxury automobile dealerships are more expensive because the quality of their labor and materials are a class above lower quality products. They buy premium ingredients/materials and pay uncommonly skilled chefs/engineers to make sure that the product is a step above lower priced alternatives.
This ship used 100% pre-existing art assets. The only dev work that went into this is the same numerical design and balancing work that goes into literally every other ship in the game. It was LESS work for the devs than any given lockbox or c-store ship.
This is what I mean when I say the rarity is artificial. It's only "premium" because they have chosen to limit its availability.
This is less a 5 star restaurant and more like a convenience store that decided to start carrying pepsi products, but makes them 4 times as expensive as coke products because they know Pepsi is more popular with their customer base.
(Note, I don't mean that as a rip on the dev team or the assets themselves, I'm strictly talking about this from a marketing/business direction)
And it's also a paradigm shift. No main-universe federation cruiser (Or KDF battlecruiser, or Romulan warbird, for that matter) has ever been gated behind a lottery box before, and honestly, I do not want this to become the new standard for how regular faction ships are delivered to us in the future.
Were I you, I would start getting used to the idea of this becoming the norm instead of the exception.
If it does, it's because there are too many people around here willing to blindly put up with it.
Well eventual any ships you buy in a computer game are contemporary versions of The Emperor's New Clothes.
you arent flying anything at all
In the mean time however, we're having fun with them.
And compared to some other things - like alcoholic beverages - that people buy and consume, these ships are providing quite a lot of fun for quite a lot of time now.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Comments
Then kiss Star Trek Online goodbye. Becuase the player base will freak if it does.
The Fleet T'Varo vs. the 23rd Century Promo T'Liss is almost as fun an argument as the Which T6 Connie is better debate.
As you can probably guess I grew up reading comic books and the whole "Who would win in a fight, Superman or the Hulk?" style of question is one I will always get a kick out of!
I mean this with 100% sincerity, these are the kinds of arguments I always felt Forums were for!
The playerbase* freaks out about everything, that's what they do.
* 5 people on the forum
No I mean as in most of the player base becuause you don't see any of those ships being the majority in game, that's still the c-store ships.
Heck you barely see T6 TOS Connies flying around.
No, not really.
How about the CDF stop arguing for something idiotic. Because thats what potientially mandatory lockbox ships (which they will become if they raise the level cap again and this is the only way to get T7 ship) is, idiotic.
I will addendum you alongside the people who make tons of EC are the ones who are graced with lady luck but in general you are right this ship is rare for a reason and i have seen actually a fair amount of T6 Connies as well as the occasional T'Liss. As for the D7 those cruisers most likely are in the hands of the DPS masters due to it being a extremely potent battlecruiser.
Because I don't just hang out around the hubs all day. I talking ques, the various game areas, and ect.
You're arguing in favor of Cryptic doing something rather stupid, so you are one to talk.
Um, you must have missed the part where they didn't put main faction ships in the lockbox or promo box except this one time in those 6 years, as in it wasn't the only place to get new ships during that time.
I doubt it, most the general consensus I get on this is that people seem to accept it this time becuase they figure its a "CBS made them do it" thing. Besides they'd probably run out of lockbox and promo ship stat ideas if they started doing more than usual.
I see one near ESD every single day I log in.
And I've started to run into a few in queues now too. It's always fun. 2 T6 Connies in a PVE PUG is soooooo awesome.
I consider the True Way a main faction in this game. And every single True Way faction ship has been either lockbox or promo pack. Including the brand new T6 ones that are Console Only.
My Cardassians have to gamble like base Ferengi to get their ships dammit!
I could EASILY see a day in which we have Intel Scimitars, Intel Odysseys, and a myriad of other ships available via lock boxes and promo packs. Imagine a future C-Store command Sovereign which would be rather boring due to all the Hero Command ships that we have. But imagine when they later release an Intel or Temporal version as a lock box or promo ship. It's probably coming and I wouldn't be shocked if we see something like this sooner rather than later.
We use the term "space barbie" all the time around here but sometimes forget the deeper meaning. We are Trek fans. We go to cons. We dress up like Klingons or Borg or Vulcans. We buy plastic phasers. We buy Klingon language books. We buy model ships. We buy communicator pins. We collect stuff.
This game is now offering digital collectibles. To an audience that is already open to the concept of buying that stuff. And the game continually changes. There was a time when they didn't offer ships for sale in the store. Just new skins. It was more profitable to offer ships. So they changed and went that route.
With these new releases, they may be changing again. And that has good sides and bad sides.
But here's a fun activity ... this is the list (I think it's complete) of neutral faction ships which are all from some sort of premium method to obtain them (Promo pack, Lockbox, Event ... although a couple are from the store too as I see the Temporal Faction Neutral ships there too)
• Cardassian Galor Class Cruiser
• Risian Luxury Cruiser
• Undine Dromias Bio-Cruiser
• Voth Bastion Flight-Deck Cruiser
• Voth Bulwark Dreadnought Cruiser
• Breen Chel Grett Warship
• Elachi S'golth Escort
• Hirogen Hunter Heavy Escort
• Jem'Hadar Attack Ship
• Jem'Hadar Heavy Escort Carrier
• Risian corvette
• Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer
• Undine Nicor Bio-Warship
• Xindi-Reptilian Contortrix Escort
• Elachi Monbosh Battleship
• Ferengi D'Kora Marauder
• Hirogen Apex Heavy Battlecruiser
• Tal Shiar Adapted Battle Cruiser
• Tholian Orb Weaver
• Voth Palisade Science Vessel
• Breen Plesh Brek Heavy Raider
• Advanced Obelisk Carrier
• Jem'Hadar Dreadnought Carrier
• Tholian Recluse Carrier
• Xindi-Aquatic Narcine Dreadnought Carrier
• Benthan Assault Cruiser (T6)
• Kobali Samsar Cruiser (T6)
• Vaadwaur Astika Heavy Battlecruiser (T6)
• Zahl Heavy Cruiser (T6)
• Na'kuhl Acheros Battlecruiser (T6)
• Ferengi Nagus Marauder (T6)
• Hazari Destroyer (T6)
• Vaadwaur Manasa Assault Escort (T6)
• Jem'Hadar Strike Ship (T6)
• Jem'Hadar Recon Ship (T6)
• Xindi-Insectoid Olaen Heavy Escort Carrier (T6)
• Ferengi Nandi Warship (T6)
• Krenim Imperium Warship (T6)
• Vorgon Xyfius Heavy Escort (T6)
• Herald Quas Flight Deck Cruiser (T6)
• Elachi Sheshar Dreadnought Cruiser (T6)
• Tholian Tarantula Dreadnought Cruiser (T6)
• Xindi-Primate Ateleth Dreadnought Cruiser (T6)
• Krenim Annorax Science Dreadnought (T6)
• Breen Rezreth Dreadnought Cruiser T6)
• Paradox Temporal Dreadnought (T6)
• Temporal Dreadnought Cruiser (T6)
• Herald Baltim Heavy Raider (T6)
• Na'kuhl Tadaari Raider (T6)
• Temporal Raider (T6)
• Breen Sarr Theln Carrier (T6)
• Herald Vonph Dreadnought Carrier (T6)
• Krenim Science Vessel (T6)
• Na'kuhl Daemosh Science Vessel (T6)
• Temporal Multi-Mission Science Vessel (T6)
I have TWO premium ships that were from lockboxes or promo packs. I have zero Lobi ships. And I have zero event ships. I didn't feel most of them were worth my time or money to obtain. Except for two.
Play what you like. Play what makes you happy. But realize that the game is likely to change and just considering the size of that list we all need to realize that the lockbox/premium path of ship release is so far past the point of no return that arguing about it is not going to accomplish much. Like I see a lot of posts that argue against buying a lockbox ship outright and it uses the "extreme" example of "If no one were to gamble, then no ships would be available." ... In a vaccuum that might be true. But look at that list. People have already gambled! There's no turning back. There's enough gambling long since built into the economy that in practical terms, it's now at a point where if you want a premium ship you can gamble or you can pay for it outright. The choice is now yours to determine if that price suits you. I never liked the Cardassians enough to feel paying hundreds of millions of EC for a Galor was worth it to me. Instead I waited for a ship that was worth it to me.
you arent flying anything at all
I suspect there are lot of people like me - who wouldn't touch lockboxes / promo packs normally, but make an exception for the ships in the Kelvin and 23c boxes. On that basis, I'd expect to see far *more* of those ships than their non-faction counterparts. Heck, I've spent as much on STO in the last 2 months as the preceding 2 years - but that probably reflects on the lack of things I wanted to buy before. No-one outside of a small minority of trolls and DPS fanatics insists that you need to buy lockbox / lobi ships to play the game.
Anyway, what the protest crowd conveniently forget is that while the Kelvin/23c ships are canon, A-grade choices, there are plenty of almost-as-good alternatives available; whether it's the Fleet Paladin and K't'inga for TOS fans, or Raiders and Command Cruisers... it's not like players are short of very potent, stylish choices from the C-store. And while the event ships may not be factional, they are solid designs with stats on a par with Fleet T6s. Cryptic are exploiting the iconic status of the KT and 23c ships, certainly, but it's not like there aren't plenty of cheaper, effective alternatives.
First off, you're assuming that a small vocal minority of desperate people speak for the entire customer base, which is absurd on its face. -I- would be willing to buy a Cstore package in a heartbeat, as would many people. Not everybody that wanted this was willing to pay WHATEVER IT TAKES (tm). The rest of us still get to have an opinion on the matter.
Secondly, even if they were willing to pay the asked price, you're assuming that consumers consistently know and act on what's in their interest, especially when there are mechanisms involved that are explicitly designed to capitalize on biases in human nature. RNG giveaways are manipulative and take advantage of the same biases that cause people to break themselves gambling.
5 Star restaurants and high end luxury automobile dealerships are more expensive because the quality of their labor and materials are a class above lower quality products. They buy premium ingredients/materials and pay uncommonly skilled chefs/engineers to make sure that the product is a step above lower priced alternatives.
This ship used 100% pre-existing art assets. The only dev work that went into this is the same numerical design and balancing work that goes into literally every other ship in the game. It was LESS work for the devs than any given lockbox or c-store ship.
This is what I mean when I say the rarity is artificial. It's only "premium" because they have chosen to limit its availability.
This is less a 5 star restaurant and more like a convenience store that decided to start carrying pepsi products, but makes them 4 times as expensive as coke products because they know Pepsi is more popular with their customer base.
(Note, I don't mean that as a rip on the dev team or the assets themselves, I'm strictly talking about this from a marketing/business direction)
If it does, it's because there are too many people around here willing to blindly put up with it.
And compared to some other things - like alcoholic beverages - that people buy and consume, these ships are providing quite a lot of fun for quite a lot of time now.