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Picking between Kelvin-Constitution or Kelvin-Dreadnought

I'm a pre-launch lifer, but I haven't played very much in the last few years. I've recently tried to dabble, and a lot of the new mechanics are confusing, so I've been taking it slow. I decided I was ready for a new ship (since exclusively using the Aventine-class since it launched), and love the Kelvin-verse look.

I'm having the hardest stupid time picking between the ships. What are the pro/cons of each? I saw that you can get the Kelvin-Dreadnought through the Lobi store - is that permanent? If so, that makes purchasing the Constitution with credits make way more sense. My stipend that I've gathered up was close 10k Zen points (pretty sure it should be more, but customer service was a no-show), so I spent all of it on Master Keys and sold them all. I now have 422 million credits, which is enough to buy either.

Having not been on since AoY launched, I'm unsure of pricing. The lowest one on the exchange currently is 395 million. Is that standard!? Holy cow. How does the equipment with them work? Do they all come with purpled-out equipment slots, or generic white like most ships? Will I also need to spend bazillions getting Kelvin-verse weapons from the exchange?

I love the design of both ships, so picking my favorite that way isn't helping at all. I read the thread another user posted reviewing both ships, but that didn't contain the answers to these questions! I know this is a deluge of scattered questions, so I appreciate your patience. Dropping back in was not as smooth as I expected!

Comments

  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    The ship is yours until you dismissed it, and then it's gone forever. Neither Lobi nor lockbox ships are account unlocks. :(

    They come with basically generic gear, except it's Kelvin themed. BUt it's still only Mark X commons. (And I think they might not be upgradeable, not sure on that.)

    I find the "Konnie" is the better looking ship. (I own both, one character got the Konnie, another got the Vengeance.)
    Mechanically speaking, the Vengeance is probably the better one.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • vampeiyrevampeiyre Member Posts: 633 Arc User
    I've got them both, and for the way I like to play, the Constitution is more fun. I'm an engineer, and set up properly, the Connie is indestructible. If you want DPS, a properly set up Vengeance will have no equal. You may eventually end up owning both, as there is a set of four consoles that are quite excellent if you're running a phaser and photon set-up, and you'll need both ships to complete it.

    I'm a pre-launch lifer too, and it seems to me the Connie is going to be my default ship until the server goes down. Between that ship, and sometimes wapping between my Vengeance or Recluse to either help a group or indulge a whim for something different, everything else I have is pretty much going to collect dust.
    "I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am."
  • commadersetekcommadersetek Member Posts: 45 Arc User
    Depends. The Dreadnought has slightly better hull and shields. It can cloak. (Wich is actually a bit useless since battle cloak or advanced battle cloak is what you want.) It is slightly faster but it's turnrate is a bit slower. By the way these are all just tiny differences it doesn't make much difference at all. So if you want to go by power and abilities then I suggest taking the Intel Dreadnought. But if you want to go by style and the one that looks nicer (in my opinion), go with the Constitution cruiser. Because the Dreadnought has a hole in the middle, and let's not forget, that ship was under the command of BOTH of the ,,Baddies'' in Star Trek Into Darkness. :smile:
  • tom61stotom61sto Member Posts: 3,635 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    On the matter of pricing, both ships have been steadily worth more than 300 Mil the entire run, though 395 Mil is a bit on the high side. Lobi ships tend to slowly trend upwards after the box they were released with ends, as even though they're still in the store, they now are priced against the newest ship to come out. When it comes to Lockbox proper ships, Cryptic recently added the 'Infinity Lockbox' with all the previous lockboxes goodies --minus the most recent-- inside of it, instead of the older lockbox rerun when a standard lockbox run ends. It was insanely popular, as all the bigger prizes are actually selectable. The Infinity Lockbox caused pretty much all the older Lockbox ships to drop dramatically in price, so once the KT Connie is added to this box (likely during the Infinity lockbox round after next proper lockbox) it too should drop to at least its current price if not lower. Infinity Lockbox is brand new, though, only having been released this last between-lockbox period, so even exactly when the KT Connie will be added is an uncertainty, given that devs have stated that the Na'kuhl lockboxes 'stuff' is the next to be added to the Infinity, even though the Na'Kuhl ships were in there last round (just not the weapons or the Plasma Wave console, but that may be that the Na'Kuhl BC was one of only two Ultra-rare Lockbox ships).

    For the weapons the ships come pre-packed with, they are Mk X common Kelvin Timeline weapons. My Vengeance came with 4x KT Phaser emitters and 1x KT Photon torp fore, then 2x KT Phaser emitters and 1x KT Photon torp aft. They don't even have the 'Upgrade' option in their right-click menu, so you'll want to pick up some better KT weapons from the Exchange before this lockbox ends, but at least you'll be able to replace them as you find deals instead of having to do them all at once if the main thing you're after is looks.
  • chozoelder2ndchozoelder2nd Member Posts: 440 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    greycobalt wrote: »
    I'm having the hardest stupid time picking between the ships. What are the pro/cons of each?
    They're both great ships. You'd be getting your money's worth. The pros and cons depend on your playstyle. Here are the differences.
    sto.gamepedia.com/Kelvin_Timeline_Heavy_Command_Cruiser
    sto.gamepedia.com/Kelvin_Timeline_Intel_Dreadnought_Cruiser

    The primary differences are the specialization seatings.

    Konnie gets Commander Engineering/Command. Vengeance gets Commander Engineering/Intel. If you want to follow the dps meta of the game, Vengeance is your choice. It's one of the best (if not the best) dps ships for feds. If you want the support/tanking role, that's what Command is.

    Vengeance has Active Sensor Arrays (Gather Intel skill/Expose Vulnerability abilities) which is about exploiting your enemies.
    Konnie has inspiration abilities which are about buffing you and your whole team.

    Vengeance has the Broadside Emitter Arrays console. It gives a passive +3 current and maximum weapon power, +12% power recharge speed for captain abilities, and does the broadside attack that you saw in the movie Into Darkness.
    Konnie has the Auxiliary Ejection Assembly console. It gives +3 current and maximum auxiliary power, +17.8% bonus exotic damage, and launches 4 warp cores behind you and explodes (like in the finale of 09) while giving you massive movement boost.

    Vengeance has the Target Rich Environment trait which essentially gives you massive (massive because it stacks) damage boost while FAW is being used.
    Konnie has the Down But Not Out trait. It gives you more subsystem power the lower your hull is. I can see this being useful for tacs that want to combo it with Go Down Fighting.

    Again, all of this info and more is in the links provided.

    I love the design of both ships, so picking my favorite that way isn't helping at all.
    If picking solely based on aesthetics is not what you're doing, then pick what you want to do. Vengeance does what it was designed to do. Fight and kill everything. Konnie is a great support/tanking cruiser. I'm not saying that you can't do good dps in a Konnie, just that a player has the potential to do so much more in a Vengeance.

    I saw that you can get the Kelvin-Dreadnought through the Lobi store - is that permanent?
    Every lockbox and lobi ship is NOT an account unlock. They are character bound the moment you open one. Discharging one means its gone forever and you'll have to acquire another one if you want to fly it again.

    Edit: I think I may have misunderstood. If you're asking if Vengeance will stay in the lobi store permanently, then yes. All lobi ships never get taken out of the lobi store.

    Having not been on since AoY launched, I'm unsure of pricing. The lowest one on the exchange currently is 395 million. Is that standard!?
    It is when it's new. As @tom61sto already stated, the new infinity lockbox made high end items much easier to get. Stuff that used to cost a lot don't anymore with this new box. Once everything from the Kelvin lockbox gets rolled into the next infinity lockbox, the prices will go down considerably than what they are now. Items that are still Kelvin themed and NOT from the lockbox (e.g. the lobi store) will not go down in price. This is because lobi ships are indexed to key prices. You won't see the price of a Vengeance change much if keys stay steady in what they currently cost. However, @tom61sto is right. They tend to slowly rise after a while, especially if they're good and sell like hotcakes.

    Of course, the infinity lockbox is still subject to change. For all we know, Cryptic might not bring it back and go back to using the old method of releasing old lockboxes individually without offering any choice. I don't think that's likely though. I think the infinity lockbox was too successful to not bring back.

    How does the equipment with them work? Do they all come with purpled-out equipment slots, or generic white like most ships? Will I also need to spend bazillions getting Kelvin-verse weapons from the exchange?
    No ship comes with VR quality weapons unless the weapon is special, like quad cannons or the wide arc quantum torp. Both ships come with common white Mk X arrays and common white Mk X torps that are not upgradable. See the links above that I previously posted. The Kelvin ship weapons aren't too costly on the exchange right now. You should be fine, unless you want to min-max and buy ones with good mods.


    Hope this helped.
    Post edited by chozoelder2nd on
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  • greycobaltgreycobalt Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    Thanks for the info everyone! I really appreciate the time you all took. It was a really tough call, but I got the Dreadnought since I've been hearing the Constitution should drop once the Infinity Lockboxes add it. Hopefully I'll build up enough money by then!
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    The last Infinity Lockbox (also the first) did NOT have the Na'kuhl Lockbox stuff in it. So we would need TWO more new Lockbox releases before the Kelvin stuff is added. It would be added on that second one.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,990 Arc User
    I understand that the ships can't be account wide, but I so wish the true universal consoles on them were. I want to be able to have the four piece set on a character I didn't buy the ships on :-(
  • chozoelder2ndchozoelder2nd Member Posts: 440 Arc User
    ltminns wrote: »
    The last Infinity Lockbox (also the first) did NOT have the Na'kuhl Lockbox stuff in it. So we would need TWO more new Lockbox releases before the Kelvin stuff is added. It would be added on that second one.
    Yes, this is true. The Acheros still made it in as a choice for a UR t6 Ship drop, but everything else from the Na'kuhl lockbox did not make it in.

    greycobalt wrote: »
    Thanks for the info everyone! I really appreciate the time you all took. It was a really tough call, but I got the Dreadnought since I've been hearing the Constitution should drop once the Infinity Lockboxes add it. Hopefully I'll build up enough money by then!

    Congrats and enjoy it. She's a fun ship to fly. I own both and find myself constantly switching between the two.
    SP9Pu.gif
  • nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    The Dreadnought is the superior ship considering this game is a dps fest. The people that use/ like the constitution can only really say stuff like "my style of play makes the constitution better." Which is just bs talk for - I like the way it looks or it makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.
    Post edited by nikephorus on
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  • vampeiyrevampeiyre Member Posts: 633 Arc User
    nikephorus wrote: »
    The Dreadnought is the superior ship considering this game is a dps fest. The people that use like the constitution can only really say stuff like "my style of play makes the constitution better." Which is just bs talk for - I like the way it looks or it makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

    Incorrect. You should equip some +30 SarcasmGen consoles, it'll improve your game.

    The Constitution IS the best Fed cruiser to tank in, due to its BOFF seating, suite of all four cruiser commands, inspiration abilities, and the 4 piece Alternate Timeline console set, especially if you're an engineer.

    Of course, no one plays engineer or tanks, as it's generally a redundant role in the meta. But everyone likes DPS, so adding a caveat about the Connie being better for a certain style is quite necessary. Otherwise, the 30 second ISA crowd will cry if they get a Connie over the Vengeance from your recommendation. Using the 3 piece Tholian console set, and using the commander slot for science, I do far more DPS in my decked-out Recluse than in my Vengeance, and in a much more fun and team contributing way, which is why I personally fly the Vengeance so seldom. It's kind of boring really. Sitting on top of the Enterprise J by myself in the Connie in Advanced and Elite Procyon V while tanking the Annorax and dozen plus Na'kuhl, Krenim, and Sphere Builder ships and laughing off their damage while you steadily kill them and the rest of the team closes portals is much more fun, for me.
    "I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am."
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    Neither one is 'better' then the other because all players are different and want different things from their ships.

    Personally, I prefer the Vengeance, the Kelvin Connie just does nothing for me. Yes, the Vengeance is set up to be a better damage dealer, and yes.. that's the primary focus in STO group play rather anyone likes it or not. If people want to think the Vengeance can't tank.. great.. go ahead and think that.

    They're both great ships, you'll likely be very happy with either one. I personally find the Vengeance superior because I can pretty much wipe out everything on the screen before they even know I'm there. I don't have to tank when my enemy is dead, but if it comes down to it, I can do that too. If you're playing a Fed and looking at Lockbox/Lobi ships both the Kelvin ships are among the most desired.

    There is no wrong answer, only your personal preference.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    vampeiyre wrote: »

    Incorrect. You should equip some +30 SarcasmGen consoles, it'll improve your game.

    The Constitution IS the best Fed cruiser to tank in, due to its BOFF seating, suite of all four cruiser commands, inspiration abilities, and the 4 piece Alternate Timeline console set, especially if you're an engineer.

    Of course, no one plays engineer or tanks, as it's generally a redundant role in the meta. But everyone likes DPS, so adding a caveat about the Connie being better for a certain style is quite necessary. Otherwise, the 30 second ISA crowd will cry if they get a Connie over the Vengeance from your recommendation. Using the 3 piece Tholian console set, and using the commander slot for science, I do far more DPS in my decked-out Recluse than in my Vengeance, and in a much more fun and team contributing way, which is why I personally fly the Vengeance so seldom. It's kind of boring really. Sitting on top of the Enterprise J by myself in the Connie in Advanced and Elite Procyon V while tanking the Annorax and dozen plus Na'kuhl, Krenim, and Sphere Builder ships and laughing off their damage while you steadily kill them and the rest of the team closes portals is much more fun, for me.

    Weak insults aside...my assertion is Incorrect based on what exactly? You're own little story about tanking with a Kevlin Constitution? I could post a story about tanking in a shuttlecraft if I wanted, but that doesn't dismiss anything I wrote. Admittedly, I left it short on details, but I'll dive into it now since you want to be proven wrong.

    Look at both ships objectively.

    Kelvin Dreadnought Cruiser

    Hull:45,600 at level 40, 52,440 at level 50, 60,800 at level 60
    Shield Modifier:1.15
    Weapons:Fore 5 Aft 3
    Can equip dual cannons.
    Bridge Officers:Lieutenant Commander Tactical Commander Engineering-Intelligence Ensign Science Lieutenant Universal-Temporal Operative Lieutenant Commander Universal
    Device Slots:4
    Consoles: Tac Console (4) Eng Console (5) Sci Console (2)
    Turn Rate:7
    Impulse Modifier:0.18
    Inertia rating:40
    Hangar

    Kelvin Command Cruiser

    Hull:43,500 at level 40, 50,025 at level 50, 58,000 at level 60
    Shield Modifier:1.1
    Weapons:Fore 4 Aft 4
    Bridge Officers:Lieutenant Commander Tactical Ensign Engineering Commander Engineering-Command Lieutenant Science-Temporal Operative Lieutenant Commander Universal
    Device Slots:4
    Consoles: Tac Console (4) End Console (4) Sci Console (3)
    Turn Rate:8
    Impulse Modifier:0.15
    Inertia rating:40

    The Dreadnought cruiser has a higher hull, higher shield modifier, a 5/3 weapon set up (which is superior to 4/4), higher impulse modifier, a hangar, and access to intelligence abilities (which are, in general, superior to command). The Command cruiser has a slightly better console layout (3 sci is better then 2) and a higher turn rate (8 vs 7)

    Your argument about the command cruiser being a better tank is simply not true. The Dreadnought as I already stated has a higher hull and shield modifier so is naturally tankier in both respects. Both ships possess Cmd Engineering stations and LtCmd Universals. If you can't make the dreadnought as tanky as a Command Cruiser then you don't know how to build a ship.
    Tza0PEl.png
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    nikephorus wrote: »

    The Dreadnought cruiser has a higher hull, higher shield modifier, a 5/3 weapon set up (which is superior to 4/4), higher impulse modifier, a hangar, and access to intelligence abilities (which are, in general, superior to command). The Command cruiser has a slightly better console layout (3 sci is better then 2) and a higher turn rate (8 vs 7)

    Your argument about the command cruiser being a better tank is simply not true. The Dreadnought as I already stated has a higher hull and shield modifier so is naturally tankier in both respects. Both ships possess Cmd Engineering stations and LtCmd Universals. If you can't make the dreadnought as tanky as a Command Cruiser then you don't know how to build a ship.

    I'm not going to get too much into the argument, but I'll just say that I agree completely with all of this.

    The notion that the Connie is somehow a superior 'tank' is a little silly. Honestly, the biggest appeal of the Kelvin Connie is it's appearance (for those that find it desirable.) The ship really is just a slightly buffed Presido, it's nothing all that special.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • vampeiyrevampeiyre Member Posts: 633 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    nikephorus wrote: »
    vampeiyre wrote: »

    Incorrect. You should equip some +30 SarcasmGen consoles, it'll improve your game.

    The Constitution IS the best Fed cruiser to tank in, due to its BOFF seating, suite of all four cruiser commands, inspiration abilities, and the 4 piece Alternate Timeline console set, especially if you're an engineer.

    Of course, no one plays engineer or tanks, as it's generally a redundant role in the meta. But everyone likes DPS, so adding a caveat about the Connie being better for a certain style is quite necessary. Otherwise, the 30 second ISA crowd will cry if they get a Connie over the Vengeance from your recommendation. Using the 3 piece Tholian console set, and using the commander slot for science, I do far more DPS in my decked-out Recluse than in my Vengeance, and in a much more fun and team contributing way, which is why I personally fly the Vengeance so seldom. It's kind of boring really. Sitting on top of the Enterprise J by myself in the Connie in Advanced and Elite Procyon V while tanking the Annorax and dozen plus Na'kuhl, Krenim, and Sphere Builder ships and laughing off their damage while you steadily kill them and the rest of the team closes portals is much more fun, for me.

    Weak insults aside...my assertion is Incorrect based on what exactly? You're own little story about tanking with a Kevlin Constitution? I could post a story about tanking in a shuttlecraft if I wanted, but that doesn't dismiss anything I wrote. Admittedly, I left it short on details, but I'll dive into it now since you want to be proven wrong.

    Look at both ships objectively.

    Kelvin Dreadnought Cruiser

    Hull:45,600 at level 40, 52,440 at level 50, 60,800 at level 60
    Shield Modifier:1.15
    Weapons:Fore 5 Aft 3
    Can equip dual cannons.
    Bridge Officers:Lieutenant Commander Tactical Commander Engineering-Intelligence Ensign Science Lieutenant Universal-Temporal Operative Lieutenant Commander Universal
    Device Slots:4
    Consoles: Tac Console (4) Eng Console (5) Sci Console (2)
    Turn Rate:7
    Impulse Modifier:0.18
    Inertia rating:40
    Hangar

    Kelvin Command Cruiser

    Hull:43,500 at level 40, 50,025 at level 50, 58,000 at level 60
    Shield Modifier:1.1
    Weapons:Fore 4 Aft 4
    Bridge Officers:Lieutenant Commander Tactical Ensign Engineering Commander Engineering-Command Lieutenant Science-Temporal Operative Lieutenant Commander Universal
    Device Slots:4
    Consoles: Tac Console (4) End Console (4) Sci Console (3)
    Turn Rate:8
    Impulse Modifier:0.15
    Inertia rating:40

    The Dreadnought cruiser has a higher hull, higher shield modifier, a 5/3 weapon set up (which is superior to 4/4), higher impulse modifier, a hangar, and access to intelligence abilities (which are, in general, superior to command). The Command cruiser has a slightly better console layout (3 sci is better then 2) and a higher turn rate (8 vs 7)

    Your argument about the command cruiser being a better tank is simply not true. The Dreadnought as I already stated has a higher hull and shield modifier so is naturally tankier in both respects. Both ships possess Cmd Engineering stations and LtCmd Universals. If you can't make the dreadnought as tanky as a Command Cruiser then you don't know how to build a ship.

    Connie ship mastery package includes Absorptive Hull Plating:+25 physical & kinetic resists. Vengeance lacks this.

    Connie has Shield Frequency Modulation: PBAOE Shield Regen and Hardness, affects Friend and Self (20 max). +10% damage reduction to Shields for yourself and nearby allies, +10% Shield Regeneration for yourself and nearby allies. Vengeance lacks this.

    Connie can use Command BOFF power Suppression Barrage III: 30 sec: Enhance your weapons to Suppress foes: -50% Outgoing Damage, -66.7 Flight Speed, -66.7 Turn Rate, -50% Accuracy. Vengeance cannot.

    Inspiration abilities are superior for tanking, and helping a team in general.

    My statement of the Connie being a superior tank is objectively correct. Secondly, I didn't state there was any difficulty in tanking with a Vengeance, it is however objectively inferior in that role. Your sarcasm, knowledge, and even reading comprehension is weak.

    Ship preference is subjective based on your preferred playstyle. I'm not certain what personal insecurities you have that drive you to be offended or bothered that some who own both (like myself) prefer the Constitution for its objectively superior performance in a tanking role. Maybe you should follow William Shatner's advice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUL7q8eyig8
    "I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am."
  • vampeiyrevampeiyre Member Posts: 633 Arc User
    nikephorus wrote: »

    The Dreadnought cruiser has a higher hull, higher shield modifier, a 5/3 weapon set up (which is superior to 4/4), higher impulse modifier, a hangar, and access to intelligence abilities (which are, in general, superior to command). The Command cruiser has a slightly better console layout (3 sci is better then 2) and a higher turn rate (8 vs 7)

    Your argument about the command cruiser being a better tank is simply not true. The Dreadnought as I already stated has a higher hull and shield modifier so is naturally tankier in both respects. Both ships possess Cmd Engineering stations and LtCmd Universals. If you can't make the dreadnought as tanky as a Command Cruiser then you don't know how to build a ship.

    I'm not going to get too much into the argument, but I'll just say that I agree completely with all of this.

    The notion that the Connie is somehow a superior 'tank' is a little silly. Honestly, the biggest appeal of the Kelvin Connie is it's appearance (for those that find it desirable.) The ship really is just a slightly buffed Presido, it's nothing all that special.

    His argument overlooks factors I've mentioned above that definitely tip the scales in favor of the Constitution for tanking.

    I agree that the Connie is nothing special if you don't want to tank, as most don't. I wouldn't recommend it to most players on that basis. I own the Command Cruiser 3 pack as well, and the Connie is definitely better than the Presidio. The Presidio lacks the universal Lt. Commander slot the Connie has, and only has 2 cruiser commands. The lack of the Weapon System Efficiency command is a very serious weakness for that ship.
    "I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am."
  • nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    vampeiyre wrote: »
    nikephorus wrote: »
    vampeiyre wrote: »

    Incorrect. You should equip some +30 SarcasmGen consoles, it'll improve your game.

    The Constitution IS the best Fed cruiser to tank in, due to its BOFF seating, suite of all four cruiser commands, inspiration abilities, and the 4 piece Alternate Timeline console set, especially if you're an engineer.

    Of course, no one plays engineer or tanks, as it's generally a redundant role in the meta. But everyone likes DPS, so adding a caveat about the Connie being better for a certain style is quite necessary. Otherwise, the 30 second ISA crowd will cry if they get a Connie over the Vengeance from your recommendation. Using the 3 piece Tholian console set, and using the commander slot for science, I do far more DPS in my decked-out Recluse than in my Vengeance, and in a much more fun and team contributing way, which is why I personally fly the Vengeance so seldom. It's kind of boring really. Sitting on top of the Enterprise J by myself in the Connie in Advanced and Elite Procyon V while tanking the Annorax and dozen plus Na'kuhl, Krenim, and Sphere Builder ships and laughing off their damage while you steadily kill them and the rest of the team closes portals is much more fun, for me.

    Weak insults aside...my assertion is Incorrect based on what exactly? You're own little story about tanking with a Kevlin Constitution? I could post a story about tanking in a shuttlecraft if I wanted, but that doesn't dismiss anything I wrote. Admittedly, I left it short on details, but I'll dive into it now since you want to be proven wrong.

    Look at both ships objectively.

    Kelvin Dreadnought Cruiser

    Hull:45,600 at level 40, 52,440 at level 50, 60,800 at level 60
    Shield Modifier:1.15
    Weapons:Fore 5 Aft 3
    Can equip dual cannons.
    Bridge Officers:Lieutenant Commander Tactical Commander Engineering-Intelligence Ensign Science Lieutenant Universal-Temporal Operative Lieutenant Commander Universal
    Device Slots:4
    Consoles: Tac Console (4) Eng Console (5) Sci Console (2)
    Turn Rate:7
    Impulse Modifier:0.18
    Inertia rating:40
    Hangar

    Kelvin Command Cruiser

    Hull:43,500 at level 40, 50,025 at level 50, 58,000 at level 60
    Shield Modifier:1.1
    Weapons:Fore 4 Aft 4
    Bridge Officers:Lieutenant Commander Tactical Ensign Engineering Commander Engineering-Command Lieutenant Science-Temporal Operative Lieutenant Commander Universal
    Device Slots:4
    Consoles: Tac Console (4) End Console (4) Sci Console (3)
    Turn Rate:8
    Impulse Modifier:0.15
    Inertia rating:40

    The Dreadnought cruiser has a higher hull, higher shield modifier, a 5/3 weapon set up (which is superior to 4/4), higher impulse modifier, a hangar, and access to intelligence abilities (which are, in general, superior to command). The Command cruiser has a slightly better console layout (3 sci is better then 2) and a higher turn rate (8 vs 7)

    Your argument about the command cruiser being a better tank is simply not true. The Dreadnought as I already stated has a higher hull and shield modifier so is naturally tankier in both respects. Both ships possess Cmd Engineering stations and LtCmd Universals. If you can't make the dreadnought as tanky as a Command Cruiser then you don't know how to build a ship.

    Connie ship mastery package includes Absorptive Hull Plating:+25 physical & kinetic resists. Vengeance lacks this.

    Connie has Shield Frequency Modulation: PBAOE Shield Regen and Hardness, affects Friend and Self (20 max). +10% damage reduction to Shields for yourself and nearby allies, +10% Shield Regeneration for yourself and nearby allies. Vengeance lacks this.

    Connie can use Command BOFF power Suppression Barrage III: 30 sec: Enhance your weapons to Suppress foes: -50% Outgoing Damage, -66.7 Flight Speed, -66.7 Turn Rate, -50% Accuracy. Vengeance cannot.

    Inspiration abilities are superior for tanking, and helping a team in general.

    My statement of the Connie being a superior tank is objectively correct. Secondly, I didn't state there was any difficulty in tanking with a Vengeance, it is however objectively inferior in that role. Your sarcasm, knowledge, and even reading comprehension is weak.

    Ship preference is subjective based on your preferred playstyle. I'm not certain what personal insecurities you have that drive you to be offended or bothered that some who own both (like myself) prefer the Constitution for its objectively superior performance in a tanking role. Maybe you should follow William Shatner's advice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUL7q8eyig8

    More insults, but with a cute video this time? You're exactly the player I mentioned in my first post. The one that feels all warm and fuzzy inside and is now apparently upset by the perceived dis of his "favorite" ship. So much so that you felt the need to defend it and also attack me personally... not once but twice. I get it. You feel like I have insulted you personally by dismissing the JJ-prize as inferior. You get a good feeling flying the ship and like looking at it as you play. There isn't anything wrong with that, but in the OP's case he wanted to know which ship is better overall. The OP didn't have the same emotional attachment you clearly have for the JJ-prize. Even in the scenario you so proudly shared earlier. -you in your JJ-prise, tanking above the Enterprise J, all by yourself with no support. A Vengeance could do the same thing and at the same time it would be doing more damage. If this game was a more traditional mmo with dedicated (dps, tank, healer) then I might concede to you that the Kelvin Timeline Command Cruiser would make a slightly better tank, but that's not how this game works and lets be real here the Vengeance has more then enough tanking ability to handle anything in this game. The Vengeance is just overall the better ship. You know it as well as you avoided addressing anything from my original post about the advantages of the Vengeance over the JJ-prize. No mention of the hangar (which could equip Shield Repair Units since your so obsessed with tanking)? No mention of the superior weapon layout that gives the vengeance the flexibility to use dual beam banks optimally?
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  • chozoelder2ndchozoelder2nd Member Posts: 440 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    nikephorus wrote: »

    The Dreadnought cruiser has a higher hull, higher shield modifier, a 5/3 weapon set up (which is superior to 4/4), higher impulse modifier, a hangar, and access to intelligence abilities (which are, in general, superior to command). The Command cruiser has a slightly better console layout (3 sci is better then 2) and a higher turn rate (8 vs 7)

    Your argument about the command cruiser being a better tank is simply not true. The Dreadnought as I already stated has a higher hull and shield modifier so is naturally tankier in both respects. Both ships possess Cmd Engineering stations and LtCmd Universals. If you can't make the dreadnought as tanky as a Command Cruiser then you don't know how to build a ship.

    Honestly, the biggest appeal of the Kelvin Connie is it's appearance (for those that find it desirable.) The ship really is just a slightly buffed Presido, it's nothing all that special.
    This is true. To be fair though, you can make a similar case about the Vengeance vs. a Fleet Eclipse or Fleet Arbiter. The main reason as to why the dps crowd loves the Vengeance is because of its trait. It basically turns the fan favorite FAW into something that's way better and ups the power creep more. Because of that, it's no surprise that it's locked behind a character bound premium ship/equipment pack from the lobi store. If someone said they're a poor fed who can't afford a Vengeance and told me they want to do dps in a cruiser, I'd point them to those two ships.

    The same might not be said about the the Konnie vs. a Presidio. Both their traits are good, but I favor Presidio's more. However, the OP has stated...
    I decided I was ready for a new ship (since exclusively using the Aventine-class since it launched), and love the Kelvin-verse look.
    Someone who says they "love" the look of Kelvin ships, exclusively flew the Aventine for so long and is now (coincidentally) considering flying a different ship now that the Kelvin ships are finally out, it's safe to assume this person obviously has aesthetics as at least somewhat of a selling point otherwise this thread would also include "what are other cheaper alternatives from the C-store?"

    vampeiyre wrote: »
    nikephorus wrote: »

    The Dreadnought cruiser has a higher hull, higher shield modifier, a 5/3 weapon set up (which is superior to 4/4), higher impulse modifier, a hangar, and access to intelligence abilities (which are, in general, superior to command). The Command cruiser has a slightly better console layout (3 sci is better then 2) and a higher turn rate (8 vs 7)

    Your argument about the command cruiser being a better tank is simply not true. The Dreadnought as I already stated has a higher hull and shield modifier so is naturally tankier in both respects. Both ships possess Cmd Engineering stations and LtCmd Universals. If you can't make the dreadnought as tanky as a Command Cruiser then you don't know how to build a ship.

    I'm not going to get too much into the argument, but I'll just say that I agree completely with all of this.

    The notion that the Connie is somehow a superior 'tank' is a little silly. Honestly, the biggest appeal of the Kelvin Connie is it's appearance (for those that find it desirable.) The ship really is just a slightly buffed Presido, it's nothing all that special.

    His argument overlooks factors I've mentioned above that definitely tip the scales in favor of the Constitution for tanking.

    I agree that the Connie is nothing special if you don't want to tank, as most don't. I wouldn't recommend it to most players on that basis. I own the Command Cruiser 3 pack as well, and the Connie is definitely better than the Presidio. The Presidio lacks the universal Lt. Commander slot the Connie has, and only has 2 cruiser commands. The lack of the Weapon System Efficiency command is a very serious weakness for that ship.
    For anyone that's thinking that I'm trying to sell the Konnie as a godlike ship, I'm not. I agree with @vampeiyre. I also wouldn't recommend the Konnie as a "must have" ship, but I also wouldn't call it subpar by any means. I was simply comparing the differences between Vengeance and Konnie for the OP. I'm not gonna be that guy that tells anyone how they should play the game. (Unless they set up their weapons to look like the default setup of a C-store ship *shudders*)
    Post edited by chozoelder2nd on
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  • vampeiyrevampeiyre Member Posts: 633 Arc User
    nikephorus wrote: »
    vampeiyre wrote: »
    nikephorus wrote: »
    vampeiyre wrote: »

    Incorrect. You should equip some +30 SarcasmGen consoles, it'll improve your game.

    The Constitution IS the best Fed cruiser to tank in, due to its BOFF seating, suite of all four cruiser commands, inspiration abilities, and the 4 piece Alternate Timeline console set, especially if you're an engineer.

    Of course, no one plays engineer or tanks, as it's generally a redundant role in the meta. But everyone likes DPS, so adding a caveat about the Connie being better for a certain style is quite necessary. Otherwise, the 30 second ISA crowd will cry if they get a Connie over the Vengeance from your recommendation. Using the 3 piece Tholian console set, and using the commander slot for science, I do far more DPS in my decked-out Recluse than in my Vengeance, and in a much more fun and team contributing way, which is why I personally fly the Vengeance so seldom. It's kind of boring really. Sitting on top of the Enterprise J by myself in the Connie in Advanced and Elite Procyon V while tanking the Annorax and dozen plus Na'kuhl, Krenim, and Sphere Builder ships and laughing off their damage while you steadily kill them and the rest of the team closes portals is much more fun, for me.

    Weak insults aside...my assertion is Incorrect based on what exactly? You're own little story about tanking with a Kevlin Constitution? I could post a story about tanking in a shuttlecraft if I wanted, but that doesn't dismiss anything I wrote. Admittedly, I left it short on details, but I'll dive into it now since you want to be proven wrong.

    Look at both ships objectively.

    Kelvin Dreadnought Cruiser

    Hull:45,600 at level 40, 52,440 at level 50, 60,800 at level 60
    Shield Modifier:1.15
    Weapons:Fore 5 Aft 3
    Can equip dual cannons.
    Bridge Officers:Lieutenant Commander Tactical Commander Engineering-Intelligence Ensign Science Lieutenant Universal-Temporal Operative Lieutenant Commander Universal
    Device Slots:4
    Consoles: Tac Console (4) Eng Console (5) Sci Console (2)
    Turn Rate:7
    Impulse Modifier:0.18
    Inertia rating:40
    Hangar

    Kelvin Command Cruiser

    Hull:43,500 at level 40, 50,025 at level 50, 58,000 at level 60
    Shield Modifier:1.1
    Weapons:Fore 4 Aft 4
    Bridge Officers:Lieutenant Commander Tactical Ensign Engineering Commander Engineering-Command Lieutenant Science-Temporal Operative Lieutenant Commander Universal
    Device Slots:4
    Consoles: Tac Console (4) End Console (4) Sci Console (3)
    Turn Rate:8
    Impulse Modifier:0.15
    Inertia rating:40

    The Dreadnought cruiser has a higher hull, higher shield modifier, a 5/3 weapon set up (which is superior to 4/4), higher impulse modifier, a hangar, and access to intelligence abilities (which are, in general, superior to command). The Command cruiser has a slightly better console layout (3 sci is better then 2) and a higher turn rate (8 vs 7)

    Your argument about the command cruiser being a better tank is simply not true. The Dreadnought as I already stated has a higher hull and shield modifier so is naturally tankier in both respects. Both ships possess Cmd Engineering stations and LtCmd Universals. If you can't make the dreadnought as tanky as a Command Cruiser then you don't know how to build a ship.

    Connie ship mastery package includes Absorptive Hull Plating:+25 physical & kinetic resists. Vengeance lacks this.

    Connie has Shield Frequency Modulation: PBAOE Shield Regen and Hardness, affects Friend and Self (20 max). +10% damage reduction to Shields for yourself and nearby allies, +10% Shield Regeneration for yourself and nearby allies. Vengeance lacks this.

    Connie can use Command BOFF power Suppression Barrage III: 30 sec: Enhance your weapons to Suppress foes: -50% Outgoing Damage, -66.7 Flight Speed, -66.7 Turn Rate, -50% Accuracy. Vengeance cannot.

    Inspiration abilities are superior for tanking, and helping a team in general.

    My statement of the Connie being a superior tank is objectively correct. Secondly, I didn't state there was any difficulty in tanking with a Vengeance, it is however objectively inferior in that role. Your sarcasm, knowledge, and even reading comprehension is weak.

    Ship preference is subjective based on your preferred playstyle. I'm not certain what personal insecurities you have that drive you to be offended or bothered that some who own both (like myself) prefer the Constitution for its objectively superior performance in a tanking role. Maybe you should follow William Shatner's advice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUL7q8eyig8

    More insults, but with a cute video this time? You're exactly the player I mentioned in my first post. The one that feels all warm and fuzzy inside and is now apparently upset by the perceived dis of his "favorite" ship. So much so that you felt the need to defend it and also attack me personally... not once but twice. I get it. You feel like I have insulted you personally by dismissing the JJ-prize as inferior. You get a good feeling flying the ship and like looking at it as you play. There isn't anything wrong with that, but in the OP's case he wanted to know which ship is better overall. The OP didn't have the same emotional attachment you clearly have for the JJ-prize. Even in the scenario you so proudly shared earlier. -you in your JJ-prise, tanking above the Enterprise J, all by yourself with no support. A Vengeance could do the same thing and at the same time it would be doing more damage. If this game was a more traditional mmo with dedicated (dps, tank, healer) then I might concede to you that the Kelvin Timeline Command Cruiser would make a slightly better tank, but that's not how this game works and lets be real here the Vengeance has more then enough tanking ability to handle anything in this game. The Vengeance is just overall the better ship. You know it as well as you avoided addressing anything from my original post about the advantages of the Vengeance over the JJ-prize. No mention of the hangar (which could equip Shield Repair Units since your so obsessed with tanking)? No mention of the superior weapon layout that gives the vengeance the flexibility to use dual beam banks optimally?

    You're mistaken, and projecting your insecure emotional mindset onto me. I merely went out of my way to point out your factually incorrect statements because you were being a TRIBBLE, which I notice you seem to do often by default. I only do so as a response to an attack, or to put ignorant children such as you in their place, as it's a valuable public service. So, you started with the ad hominem attacks, I merely returned the favor.

    Now you're moving the goal posts, another fallacy that further weakens your non-argument. The KTHCC is objectively a better tank, not debatable. Changing the subject to the redundancy of tanking and engineers is a doubly laughable strategy as I myself stated that condition of the meta game in every post I've made offering advice on these ships, specifically so no one would be tempted to get a Connie for sheer nostalgia or cosmetic appeal. You're winning at losing sir.

    Both ships are the best at their roles. That's why I have both. Neither is better than the other in absolute terms, as they both have different purposes. I like to tank in MMO games like this, so I fly the Connie more than the Vengeance solo.

    I do a lot of que PUGs, and since most people will fly DPS ships, I fly either the Connie or Recluse to a fill a void a team would be more likely to have. Since the T6 Paradox Temporal Dreadnought is super popular for control/GW spam, I pretty much hang in the Connie by default these days as I know pretty much no one else will be in a command cruiser to reset BOFF powers with the Battle Preparation inspiration ability, neuter enemy damage with Suppression Barrage III, or neuter enemy defense via aggro control and Attack Pattern Delta. So, Connie is more useful as a team player ship, as I can always rely on at least one Vengeance and/or Scimitar or something similar in any que.

    A hangar has no bearing on tanking, as an engineer I'd never need to waste a pet for a repair drone. Hangars are superior for DPS or debuffing, so Elite Kelvin Assault Drones for my Vengeance, Elite Mesh Weavers for my Recluse. This is another red herring/non-point on your part.

    The superior turn rate of the KT Connie actually gives it the advantage of optimal DBB use. Again, not sure you actually put thought into this statement either.

    No factual inaccuracies or inconsistencies on my part. Please, dance for me more fool, you're a great entertainer.

    "I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am."
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    This is true. To be fair though, you can make a similar case about the Vengeance vs. a Fleet Eclipse or Fleet Arbiter. The main reason as to why the dps crowd loves the Vengeance is because of its trait. It basically turns the fan favorite FAW into something that's way better and ups the power creep more.

    I agree on the Arbiter/Eclipse thing. The Vengeance is a powerhouse, but the Arbiter is every bit as good and in some cases even better. The Eclipse is also very powerful, right on par with the Vengeance.

    Honestly, I totally disagree on the trait thing though. I have the Vengeance, and I don't slot 'Target Rich Environment,' it's really not that great. It's all cat 1 bonus, it's basically about as effective as one tac console that's not always active. I mean, it's not BAD, if you have nothing else to go there, it's fine.. but Target Rich Environment loses to many other better traits. I have the maximum number of available starship traits, and I still don't use it. If you compare the Arbiter trait to the Vengance, the Arbiter wins by a mile. I actually even prefer Battle Ready from the Eclipse over Target Rich Environment. Battle Ready is a pretty nice Trait, especially on threat ships using Reciprocity.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • chozoelder2ndchozoelder2nd Member Posts: 440 Arc User
    This is true. To be fair though, you can make a similar case about the Vengeance vs. a Fleet Eclipse or Fleet Arbiter. The main reason as to why the dps crowd loves the Vengeance is because of its trait. It basically turns the fan favorite FAW into something that's way better and ups the power creep more.

    Honestly, I totally disagree on the trait thing though. I have the Vengeance, and I don't slot 'Target Rich Environment,' it's really not that great. It's all cat 1 bonus, it's basically about as effective as one tac console that's not always active.

    Oh wow. Did a quick search on it. You're right. I did not realize this.
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  • timonicustimonicus Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    Went for the vengeance, enjoying it, not parsed any dps yet, but nice and tanky and enjoying the cloak
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