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Am I the only person who finds helping the Kobali utterly distateful and wrong?

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  • tousseautousseau Member Posts: 1,484 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    Now... if we only had a Kobali costume....
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,276 Arc User
    tousseau wrote: »
    Now... if we only had a Kobali costume....

    we do; it's just not available anymore​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

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  • shevetshevet Member Posts: 1,667 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    The Kobali do not "forcibly suppress" the former memories and personalities of those resurrected. It's stated outright in "Dust to Dust" that this is the inevitable result of the modification of the raised corpse into a Kobali - the physical structure of the brain is changed, resulting in the new Kobali person. They're restrained at the beginning of this process because the resurrectee, not understanding the changes about to take place, may try to go back and resume their old life - only to find their former loved ones recoiling in horror from this "zombie", and then to find many memories and emotional associations fading as the physical storage locations in the brain are altered.
    Well, err, yes, well, but... this is the Kobali account of how the process works. Now, with most alien species, if they tell me how their biology works, I'll take their word for it (because, hey, they'd know, right?). But I'm hearing this stuff from the Kobali, and I know they don't have any trouble lying to me. So... do I trust them?

    I mean, I'd want to have some scientific studies done. There must be people who are exposed to the Kobali virus but who slip through the net - "feral" Kobali, if you like, who get the resurrection but not the... how can I put it in neutral terms?... subsequent socialization by Kobali mentors. What sort of personalities do these guys have? Do they see themselves as new beings, or as being the same person they were, but subject to a series of profound changes?

    I can get past the Kobali life cycle being squicky, but I can't get past the fact that they lied to us. And when they got caught out, they said they were very sorry and they explained their reasons and they said they'd never do it again... and then they did it again. So, do I trust them? Sorry, no. I want independent reviews and independent evidence.
    8b6YIel.png?1
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    Oh, don't get me wrong - I think the existing Kobali government has some serious questions to answer, possibly at disruptor-point, about why they lied and stole corpses, instead of asking politely. I'm sure that most Klingons would be willing to relinquish their dead, after the appropriate vigil to ensure the spirit has traveled to Sto'vo'kor; quite a few Humans would probably be willing as well, as secular humanism seems to have become the most widespread "faith" among them. Ferengi, of course, would require that the Kobali outbid everyone who might want a slice of the freeze-dried body of one of theirs...

    On the third hand, Klingons might not be so happy about it now, given the dishonorable actions taken by the Kobali so far.​​
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    The Kobali do not "forcibly suppress" the former memories and personalities of those resurrected. It's stated outright in "Dust to Dust" that this is the inevitable result of the modification of the raised corpse into a Kobali - the physical structure of the brain is changed, resulting in the new Kobali person. They're restrained at the beginning of this process because the resurrectee, not understanding the changes about to take place, may try to go back and resume their old life - only to find their former loved ones recoiling in horror from this "zombie", and then to find many memories and emotional associations fading as the physical storage locations in the brain are altered.

    And if this is horrific to you, I can only imagine your reaction to the process of physical maturation in Humans, which also has the effect of altering the personality and reducing the emotional impact of distant memories (at least, I'm sure not the same man I was twenty or thirty years ago, and I'm very happy that the thought of my ex-wife now leaves me feeling pity for her, rather than sorrow and rage for what she did).​​
    Yeah, for most reanimees they simply don't remember enough of their previous life for who they were before to matter. Keten and Jhetleya were unusual in how much they were able to remember.

    Also I don't think it's just the transformation that causes permanent amnesia, but also the fact they were dead.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    Oh, all the moralizing. 'Morales are for men, not Gods'.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    The Kobali do not "forcibly suppress" the former memories and personalities of those resurrected. It's stated outright in "Dust to Dust" that this is the inevitable result of the modification of the raised corpse into a Kobali - the physical structure of the brain is changed, resulting in the new Kobali person. They're restrained at the beginning of this process because the resurrectee, not understanding the changes about to take place, may try to go back and resume their old life - only to find their former loved ones recoiling in horror from this "zombie", and then to find many memories and emotional associations fading as the physical storage locations in the brain are altered.

    And if this is horrific to you, I can only imagine your reaction to the process of physical maturation in Humans, which also has the effect of altering the personality and reducing the emotional impact of distant memories (at least, I'm sure not the same man I was twenty or thirty years ago, and I'm very happy that the thought of my ex-wife now leaves me feeling pity for her, rather than sorrow and rage for what she did).​​
    Yeah, for most reanimees they simply don't remember enough of their previous life for who they were before to matter. Keten and Jhetleya were unusual in how much they were able to remember.

    Also I don't think it's just the transformation that causes permanent amnesia, but also the fact they were dead.

    And again, we only have the Kobali's word for any of that. As far as objective evidence goes, Lyndsay Ballard and Harry Kim are the way it has been consistently shown to actually happen.
  • alexraptorralexraptorr Member Posts: 1,192 Arc User
    YffZZ9o.png
    "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
  • daviesdaviesdaviesdavies Member Posts: 277 Arc User
    In Real Star Trek Story Kobali only pick up cadaver which has been "discarded"
    They only " Salvage", The status of "discarded" can be an issue which people may disagree on
    But that is for lawyers to fight over in Courts and not based on opnions. ( Ask Picard's girlfriend)
    In this case , a writer chooses to change Kobali 's culture for a story in a computer game's expansion
    to make the story more " creative".

    But as you all know the Federation in STO is pretty much made of warcriminals, who violate prime directives at a daily base. (torturing prisioner in form of prolong isolation, commiting genocide against giant cavemen ... list is too long to go with )

    My point is : The actions of the Federation are so distasteful and wrong, pretty much everyone would not care for the Kobali . Besides entertainments like STO are not the place for Moral lessons. It is corrupt in its core. Basicly it glorifies violence by giftwrapping it with some old twisted narratives, sold to us for a couple bucks. It is so utterly distasteful and wrong, I like it very much. I bet you like it too :D If you feel bad, go kill some aliens, "haha get some get some !"










    Mzd8i1c.gif
  • alexraptorralexraptorr Member Posts: 1,192 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    I fail to see how the Federation in STO is made of war criminals. You seem to have a very skewed idea of the plot, especially when going by revamped story arcs that have eliminated a number of controversial story arcs, such as the destruction of Jem'hadar incubators and Divide et Impera.

    The only hint of Genocide was against the Iconians due to the literal "us or them" situation.
    "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
  • theotherscotty#9105 theotherscotty Member Posts: 385 Arc User
    Daviesdavies, seen in that light, if the Federation's actions are so distasteful and wrong, I guess it would make more sense for us to be the mirror Terrans rather than the Federation (now that would be an interesting game!); at least the Terran Empire aren't hypocrites. They're pretty upfront and honest about their corruption and evilness. lol
  • tousseautousseau Member Posts: 1,484 Arc User
    Who's to say that the Federation of the Cryptic Timeline isn't just a Federation Lite, with a twist of the Terran Empire added for a bit of spice... Afterall, roughly 95% of what we do is done at the point of a phaser bank...
  • themetalstickmanthemetalstickman Member Posts: 1,010 Arc User
    tousseau wrote: »
    Who's to say that the Federation of the Cryptic Timeline isn't just a Federation Lite, with a twist of the Terran Empire added for a bit of spice... Afterall, roughly 95% of what we do is done at the point of a phaser bank...

    Mostly because roughly 95% of what we do happens during a state of war.
    Og12TbC.jpg

    Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.

    I dare you to do better.
  • sorceror01sorceror01 Member Posts: 1,042 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    The Kobali do not "forcibly suppress" the former memories and personalities of those resurrected. It's stated outright in "Dust to Dust" that this is the inevitable result of the modification of the raised corpse into a Kobali - the physical structure of the brain is changed, resulting in the new Kobali person. They're restrained at the beginning of this process because the resurrectee, not understanding the changes about to take place, may try to go back and resume their old life - only to find their former loved ones recoiling in horror from this "zombie", and then to find many memories and emotional associations fading as the physical storage locations in the brain are altered.

    And if this is horrific to you, I can only imagine your reaction to the process of physical maturation in Humans, which also has the effect of altering the personality and reducing the emotional impact of distant memories (at least, I'm sure not the same man I was twenty or thirty years ago, and I'm very happy that the thought of my ex-wife now leaves me feeling pity for her, rather than sorrow and rage for what she did).​​
    Yeah, for most reanimees they simply don't remember enough of their previous life for who they were before to matter. Keten and Jhetleya were unusual in how much they were able to remember.

    Also I don't think it's just the transformation that causes permanent amnesia, but also the fact they were dead.

    And again, we only have the Kobali's word for any of that. As far as objective evidence goes, Lyndsay Ballard and Harry Kim are the way it has been consistently shown to actually happen.

    Potentially..... humans may be more prone to retaining their memories during the beginning of the process.
    But frankly, this process is more than likely backed up by Kobali medical science and can more than likely be observed and correlated by Federation science as well.

    Look, honestly, yeah, everyone pretty much agrees the Kobali push the limits of the policies of acceptance that the Federation holds to. But hating on them for their ways and actively encouraging the extinction of their species is barbaric and disgusting. We may not agree with their methods but they do what they do to preserve themselves. They do not do so violently even though they could, and they seem to be very respectful of the selection overall, despite the nature of it.
    ".... you're gonna have a bad time."
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    sorceror01 wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    The Kobali do not "forcibly suppress" the former memories and personalities of those resurrected. It's stated outright in "Dust to Dust" that this is the inevitable result of the modification of the raised corpse into a Kobali - the physical structure of the brain is changed, resulting in the new Kobali person. They're restrained at the beginning of this process because the resurrectee, not understanding the changes about to take place, may try to go back and resume their old life - only to find their former loved ones recoiling in horror from this "zombie", and then to find many memories and emotional associations fading as the physical storage locations in the brain are altered.

    And if this is horrific to you, I can only imagine your reaction to the process of physical maturation in Humans, which also has the effect of altering the personality and reducing the emotional impact of distant memories (at least, I'm sure not the same man I was twenty or thirty years ago, and I'm very happy that the thought of my ex-wife now leaves me feeling pity for her, rather than sorrow and rage for what she did).​​
    Yeah, for most reanimees they simply don't remember enough of their previous life for who they were before to matter. Keten and Jhetleya were unusual in how much they were able to remember.

    Also I don't think it's just the transformation that causes permanent amnesia, but also the fact they were dead.

    And again, we only have the Kobali's word for any of that. As far as objective evidence goes, Lyndsay Ballard and Harry Kim are the way it has been consistently shown to actually happen.

    Potentially..... humans may be more prone to retaining their memories during the beginning of the process.
    But frankly, this process is more than likely backed up by Kobali medical science and can more than likely be observed and correlated by Federation science as well.

    Look, honestly, yeah, everyone pretty much agrees the Kobali push the limits of the policies of acceptance that the Federation holds to. But hating on them for their ways and actively encouraging the extinction of their species is barbaric and disgusting. We may not agree with their methods but they do what they do to preserve themselves. They do not do so violently even though they could, and they seem to be very respectful of the selection overall, despite the nature of it.
    Star Trek often has a tendency to value culture over life and collectives over individuals. I don't agree. They have absolutely no right to brainwash others to "preserve" themselves. And they do do so violently, they attacked Voyager to get Ballard back and are violently preventing the Vaadwaur from rescuing their people in STO.

    Their species went extinct when the last naturally born Kobali died (assuming any have ever existed). What they have left is as artificial as the Borg.
  • tousseautousseau Member Posts: 1,484 Arc User
    "We are the Kobali. Resistance as you know it is over. We will add your biological and emotional distinctiveness to our own."
  • berginsbergins Member Posts: 3,450 Arc User
    No.
    "We will overwrite your biological and emotional distinctiveness with our own."
    "Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow. Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell BAD." - Spock
  • tousseautousseau Member Posts: 1,484 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    Lindsey and Harry may disagree with that, as they are very much aware of where they come from...

    Sorry... Jetlya and Ketin (sp?)...
  • themetalstickmanthemetalstickman Member Posts: 1,010 Arc User
    tousseau wrote: »
    Lindsey and Harry may disagree with that, as they are very much aware of where they come from...

    Sorry... Jetlya and Ketin (sp?)...

    Not for long though.
    Og12TbC.jpg

    Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.

    I dare you to do better.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    Jetlya still remembers her former life and it is over 30 years later.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    Read the flavor text in "Dust to Dust". "Harry" was losing his memories as you spoke to him. Nobody was "brainwashing" him, he was running freely through the facility (using his oncoming Kobali memories of it to navigate).​​
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • tousseautousseau Member Posts: 1,484 Arc User
    Which makes one wonder if the individualistic nature of humans, makes them less than ideal candidates for kobalification...
  • sorceror01sorceror01 Member Posts: 1,042 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    sorceror01 wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    The Kobali do not "forcibly suppress" the former memories and personalities of those resurrected. It's stated outright in "Dust to Dust" that this is the inevitable result of the modification of the raised corpse into a Kobali - the physical structure of the brain is changed, resulting in the new Kobali person. They're restrained at the beginning of this process because the resurrectee, not understanding the changes about to take place, may try to go back and resume their old life - only to find their former loved ones recoiling in horror from this "zombie", and then to find many memories and emotional associations fading as the physical storage locations in the brain are altered.

    And if this is horrific to you, I can only imagine your reaction to the process of physical maturation in Humans, which also has the effect of altering the personality and reducing the emotional impact of distant memories (at least, I'm sure not the same man I was twenty or thirty years ago, and I'm very happy that the thought of my ex-wife now leaves me feeling pity for her, rather than sorrow and rage for what she did).​​
    Yeah, for most reanimees they simply don't remember enough of their previous life for who they were before to matter. Keten and Jhetleya were unusual in how much they were able to remember.

    Also I don't think it's just the transformation that causes permanent amnesia, but also the fact they were dead.

    And again, we only have the Kobali's word for any of that. As far as objective evidence goes, Lyndsay Ballard and Harry Kim are the way it has been consistently shown to actually happen.

    Potentially..... humans may be more prone to retaining their memories during the beginning of the process.
    But frankly, this process is more than likely backed up by Kobali medical science and can more than likely be observed and correlated by Federation science as well.

    Look, honestly, yeah, everyone pretty much agrees the Kobali push the limits of the policies of acceptance that the Federation holds to. But hating on them for their ways and actively encouraging the extinction of their species is barbaric and disgusting. We may not agree with their methods but they do what they do to preserve themselves. They do not do so violently even though they could, and they seem to be very respectful of the selection overall, despite the nature of it.
    Star Trek often has a tendency to value culture over life and collectives over individuals. I don't agree. They have absolutely no right to brainwash others to "preserve" themselves. And they do do so violently, they attacked Voyager to get Ballard back and are violently preventing the Vaadwaur from rescuing their people in STO.

    Their species went extinct when the last naturally born Kobali died (assuming any have ever existed). What they have left is as artificial as the Borg.

    Believe it or not, one is completely capable of valuing both collective and individual rights, and Star Trek has done both plenty of times, in equal measure. And frankly, in situations like this, one has to. Going too far in either direction leads to too many unfortunate issues.

    The Kobali do not "brainwash" anyone. They take a corpse and re-animate it in a way that transforms it fully into Kobali. Brainwashing implies that they are kidnapping living, sentient beings and enacting a specific process upon them. They are not, they are using already-dead entities. Entities that have expired well before the Kobali come across them; the Kobali do not go around murdering people to use their corpses.

    They conflicted with Voyager because they essentially saw the situation as a "child" being kidnapped, because that is basically what Lyndsay Ballard was at that point: a Kobali child. Children are not capable of making informed decisions as to their own fates, and thus adults are pretty much required to make all the decisions for them.
    The Kobali were basically trying to recover one of their offspring at that point. Which was obviously a very strange situation for the Voyager crew to deal with, being that they had a hard time viewing
    Though we see it as strange, that is what it was, and even Jhet'leya slowly began to realize it once the transformation had reached a certain point. She knew that she stopped being Lyndsay the moment she opened her eyes again, and just had difficulty in accepting that.

    And their conflict with the Vaadwaur was admittedly complicated and the Kobali fully realized they were in the wrong in what they were doing, but: they were still not actively killing Vaadwaur, they were resurrecting deceased ones that had perished from malfunctioning stasis pods.
    Presumably, if the Vaadwaur had approached the Kobali diplomatically instead of immediately launching into hostilities with them, one can assume they could have negotiated the return of the still-living Vaadwaur, potentially leaving the corpses for the Kobali (or not, we don't know, as that is most certainly not what the Vaadwaur wound up doing).

    The Kobali have already informed us that they were not always this way, but this condition was inflicted on them. However, just because they reproduce artificially does not make them in any way an artificial species, and no where near what the Borg are.

    Again: you may find them distasteful, but calling for their extinction is a much grosser opinion to have by an order of magnitude. You are advocating genocide because you find the way these aliens reproduce offensive to your own personal sensibilities.
    ".... you're gonna have a bad time."
  • risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,711 Arc User
    Since there are no natural Kobali anymore, calling for their extinction would be the same thing as calling for the extinction of a (admittedly, sentient) robot race.

    As for not killing Vaadwaur: they were at war with them. And in that war, they did kill Vaadwaur. You might argue they did so out of self defence, but that's of course not entirely true since they knew perfectly well why the Vaadwaur attacked them and how they could stop it.

    Besides, inaction is as much a crime in most countries as action. If you could have prevented the death of those Vaadwaur in failing tubes, but you refuse to do so, then it's still a crime even though you did nothing.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    risian4 wrote: »
    Since there are no natural Kobali anymore, calling for their extinction would be the same thing as calling for the extinction of a (admittedly, sentient) robot race.

    As for not killing Vaadwaur: they were at war with them. And in that war, they did kill Vaadwaur. You might argue they did so out of self defence, but that's of course not entirely true since they knew perfectly well why the Vaadwaur attacked them and how they could stop it.

    Besides, inaction is as much a crime in most countries as action. If you could have prevented the death of those Vaadwaur in failing tubes, but you refuse to do so, then it's still a crime even though you did nothing.

    Setting aside what "natural" means in this case, calling for the extinction of a sentient AND sapient race, robot or otherwise, is equally despicable. It's calling for genocide in both cases.

    It is true that the whole Vaadwaur scenario is a complicated one, I'd argue the Vaadwaur weren't just acting to save their people but starting on a conquest spree of the quadrant in the process. But in any case, Starfleet (or rather "the Alliance" which however we all know is just Starfleet storytelling wise) interfered and ended the conflict. Isn't that what peacekeepers are supposed to do? Plus we as players unveiled the wrongs on both sides which according to the story (again, simplified like that) the responsibles have been dealt with. By not interfering the practice that has been identified in this thread as so despicable would have continued, by interfering it was stopped. The players do not assist in it.​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,711 Arc User
    One of our most important rules states that we shouldn't have interfered. That we should have let them fight their own war.

    Keep in mind, for the better part of the conflict, we did fight on the side of the Kobali. It may be true that by not interfering, things would have gotten worse but it was not our war. We had no right to stop the Vaadwaur, not on that specific planet. Even if we had, we shouldn't have actively helped the Kobali since they were responsible for the conflict that threatened them.

    Both for Starfleet and for the KDF, helping the Kobali was distasteful. For Starfleet because of the Prime Directive, for the KDF because they're a bunch of liars who delivered the first punch in a fight and who then continue to hide behind our backs while we solve things for them, all the while pretending they are the victims.

    And by apprehending the development of an anti-virus that could counter the Kobali virus, we did more than just trying to end the conflict.


    Even if the war would have resulted in the extinction of the Kobali, it would have been their own fault. Just like there are clear indications that it was their own fault why they can no longer reproduce in the first place. Calling for their extinction may be wrong, letting them go extinct because of their own stupid actions would not be.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    I think you are misinterpreting the "prime directive".

    The Vaadwaur, before we get to Kobali Prime, wage war against everyone in the quadrant. They already destroyed a few Sovereignities that were previously helping Voyager and the UFP while the Kobali previously supplied aid to the Alliance in previous encounters with hostiles. Finally the Kobali, who are cosnidered friendlies at this point, requested help because their homeworld faces the risk of being destroyed. Declining this request at this point would be out of character for both the UFP and the Klingons. The Vaadwaur themselves are enemies of the Alliance. The conflict unravels only as we already partake in it and once we figured it out we do everything to put it to an end.

    EDIT: I do not know at this point what the Vaadwaur Virus was supposed to do. If it however would indeed kill Kobali, as all mission texts indicate, it would be stopping the use of chemical WMDs which is also in line for both factions (The Klingons for having the obligation to help an ally - I'd agree that it would be debateable for the empire to stay in the find when they find out what the Kobali did, I don't know if they would simply abandon them but it would be a point for debate. However the game treats both factions as a "Alliance" at this point which doesn't allow for any separation of ethics any more).​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,711 Arc User
    It's been a while since I played the Delta missions, especially the first few in the arc but I don't believe they were an ally to the Alliance before you get to Kobali prime and assist in their war there.

    The Vaadwaur are our enemies, yes. But that doesn't mean that everything they do is wrong or that they may not have good reasons for certain specific actions. They are trying to get their people back (keep in mind, they are a dying race as well), the planet that is now called 'Kobali prime' was actually a Vaadwaur colony.

    As others have stated before, they will likely get away with their actions because we need all the allies we get (or so we're told; again, never took the threat that serious myself but ok). But that, or the fact that they supported the Alliance, doesn't mean that helping them is not distasteful.

    Just like our enemies might be fighting for a right cause (on this specific battlefield, overall it's pretty clear that they're the Vaadwaur are the bad guys of course), some of our allies may be doing bad things. Calling them out on that is justified.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    sorceror01 wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    sorceror01 wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    The Kobali do not "forcibly suppress" the former memories and personalities of those resurrected. It's stated outright in "Dust to Dust" that this is the inevitable result of the modification of the raised corpse into a Kobali - the physical structure of the brain is changed, resulting in the new Kobali person. They're restrained at the beginning of this process because the resurrectee, not understanding the changes about to take place, may try to go back and resume their old life - only to find their former loved ones recoiling in horror from this "zombie", and then to find many memories and emotional associations fading as the physical storage locations in the brain are altered.

    And if this is horrific to you, I can only imagine your reaction to the process of physical maturation in Humans, which also has the effect of altering the personality and reducing the emotional impact of distant memories (at least, I'm sure not the same man I was twenty or thirty years ago, and I'm very happy that the thought of my ex-wife now leaves me feeling pity for her, rather than sorrow and rage for what she did).​​
    Yeah, for most reanimees they simply don't remember enough of their previous life for who they were before to matter. Keten and Jhetleya were unusual in how much they were able to remember.

    Also I don't think it's just the transformation that causes permanent amnesia, but also the fact they were dead.

    And again, we only have the Kobali's word for any of that. As far as objective evidence goes, Lyndsay Ballard and Harry Kim are the way it has been consistently shown to actually happen.

    Potentially..... humans may be more prone to retaining their memories during the beginning of the process.
    But frankly, this process is more than likely backed up by Kobali medical science and can more than likely be observed and correlated by Federation science as well.

    Look, honestly, yeah, everyone pretty much agrees the Kobali push the limits of the policies of acceptance that the Federation holds to. But hating on them for their ways and actively encouraging the extinction of their species is barbaric and disgusting. We may not agree with their methods but they do what they do to preserve themselves. They do not do so violently even though they could, and they seem to be very respectful of the selection overall, despite the nature of it.
    Star Trek often has a tendency to value culture over life and collectives over individuals. I don't agree. They have absolutely no right to brainwash others to "preserve" themselves. And they do do so violently, they attacked Voyager to get Ballard back and are violently preventing the Vaadwaur from rescuing their people in STO.

    Their species went extinct when the last naturally born Kobali died (assuming any have ever existed). What they have left is as artificial as the Borg.

    Believe it or not, one is completely capable of valuing both collective and individual rights, and Star Trek has done both plenty of times, in equal measure. And frankly, in situations like this, one has to. Going too far in either direction leads to too many unfortunate issues.

    The Kobali do not "brainwash" anyone. They take a corpse and re-animate it in a way that transforms it fully into Kobali. Brainwashing implies that they are kidnapping living, sentient beings and enacting a specific process upon them. They are not, they are using already-dead entities. Entities that have expired well before the Kobali come across them; the Kobali do not go around murdering people to use their corpses.
    They are kidnapping living sentieng beings, destroying their memories and personality to assimilate them, and respond violently to attempts to rescue them.

    Any being that is still revivable by any means can't be considered dead by objective standards. It doesn't matter if Federation technology can't revive them, the Kobali technology can, so they are not dead.
    They conflicted with Voyager because they essentially saw the situation as a "child" being kidnapped, because that is basically what Lyndsay Ballard was at that point: a Kobali child. Children are not capable of making informed decisions as to their own fates, and thus adults are pretty much required to make all the decisions for them.
    The Kobali were basically trying to recover one of their offspring at that point. Which was obviously a very strange situation for the Voyager crew to deal with, being that they had a hard time viewing
    Though we see it as strange, that is what it was, and even Jhet'leya slowly began to realize it once the transformation had reached a certain point. She knew that she stopped being Lyndsay the moment she opened her eyes again, and just had difficulty in accepting that.
    No, the Kobali were trying to recover their victim. And they succeeded once she succumbed to the brainwashing.
    And their conflict with the Vaadwaur was admittedly complicated and the Kobali fully realized they were in the wrong in what they were doing, but: they were still not actively killing Vaadwaur, they were resurrecting deceased ones that had perished from malfunctioning stasis pods.
    Presumably, if the Vaadwaur had approached the Kobali diplomatically instead of immediately launching into hostilities with them, one can assume they could have negotiated the return of the still-living Vaadwaur, potentially leaving the corpses for the Kobali (or not, we don't know, as that is most certainly not what the Vaadwaur wound up doing).
    It's not complicated at all. Vaadwaur came to pick up their frozen people, the Kobali shot at them as they tend to do when people try to save their victims. Result war.
    The Kobali have already informed us that they were not always this way, but this condition was inflicted on them. However, just because they reproduce artificially does not make them in any way an artificial species, and no where near what the Borg are.
    Yes, it does. They are in fact exactly what the Borg are. Someone made the Borg, too. And if the Kobali didn't have convenient sources of sorta-kinda-but-not-really dead people to assimilate, they too would be flying around in cubes trolling the galaxy for their "corpses."
    Again: you may find them distasteful, but calling for their extinction is a much grosser opinion to have by an order of magnitude. You are advocating genocide because you find the way these aliens reproduce offensive to your own personal sensibilities.
    They are already extinct. Just like whatever species originally turned themselves into the Borg.
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