I am totally lost trying to track this mess, let me see if I got it right. The entire premise is that IF STO had charged us for the bag of Apples they gave us instead of giving it away, would it worth the same $40.00 that someone else charged for a crate of Oranges. Did I understand the premise of the question correctly ?
I am totally lost trying to track this mess, let me see if I got it right. The entire premise is that IF STO had charged us for the bag of Apples they gave us instead of giving it away, would it worth the same $40.00 that someone else charged for a crate of Oranges. Did I understand the premise of the question correctly ?
What kind of stuff do other games have in their paid expansions? level cap raise, quests, dungeons maybe adventure or daily zones? pretty much the same thing that Cryptic is giving us for free? it seems more like we are getting a bag of free red apples, someone else is having to pay 40 dollars for a bag of green apples and the OP is wondering if our bag of red apples would be worth 40 dollars if Cryptic made us pay for it.
It would absolutely be worth $40 if it came with 4000 zeni.
I'm actually not even being funny. Certain aspects of this release are the new Zeni ships & costumes, and I consider the Kelvin Lockbox and it content in addition to the grand prize ships to be part of this release.
I was given the choice. I could go with the very basic and get the new faction (a term I find more and more suitable as my 60th level TOS admiral continues to enjoy little flourishes long after I'd have burned through any additional exclusive mission content...) and missions and instances/que. Or I could choose to pay $50 and pick up the trio of all-faction ships which have given me hours of fun in various combinatons on various captains and will continue to simplify my admiralty gameplay with some very handy cards. Or I could choose to kick in $200 during the simultaneous zeni and key sale, then buy the cross faction battlecruiser pack and hit the new lock boxes like a rampaging bull and walk away with all three ships, a ton of good consoles, traits, manuals, weapons, and high tier doffs and most of the zeni I needed for a Vengeance and still have hundred's of millions of Ec worth of keys left over. I've even heard some people chose to get the Temporal Special Agent pack and all the old-school goodness it offers.
They set the floor very, very low (free), and then created some additional goodies across a range of price points. I don't really see how adding barriers to entry would help them. You don't need the extra stuff I chose to get to run the new ques, so frankly I want as many people as possible having access to those activities out of blatant SELF-interest. SO its really not a question of the worth of that content... its a question of the value of getting as many players as possible participating so that those that do choose to pay in more or even much more have folks around to play with.
This expansion consisted of 10% playable content and 90% new ships.
So in reality, it wasn't really a free expansion.
Just my opinion mind, but the free content was probably worth £5 to me at best.
LoR is still the gold standard, and I had no problem buying the ship pack, because there was so much to do!
That's an interesting perspective - that AoY is a partially B2P expansion already, with the ships and costumes being part of it, with the rest (tutorial, temporal spec, and broken animations) being a sort of "free tier." I hadn't thought of it that way.
I learned yesterday that Rift - another F2P game - is charging for its next expansion. This expansion includes a new level cap, several new zones, new abilities, and so on. It is only available as a cash purchase, without an option for using the tradeable "cash-equivalent" currency, putting it firmly into B2P territory.
It's not F2P (Free to Play) if you're required to pay to play it.
I wasn't clear; my apologies. Rift is currently touted as a free-to-play game, but with the expansion not being available for free (like the previous one was) it will be buy-to-play. I'm not sure whether they'll still call it F2P, but it wouldn't surprise me with all the nonsense they've pulled.
I give my kids birthday gifts. If they came back to me and said they felt my gifts were lame because the neighbor paid to go on a cruise and cruises have way more content than the free gifts I gave them, I would think they were nuts....and so here we are OP...trolling?
That's a good start of an analogy, but it's more like if you bought your kids big Lego sets or model cars for their birthday every year, and then one year their birthday gift is a Snickers bar.
40 currencies is the industry standard for expansions? You get full titles for that amount. For a MMO expansion I'd pay 15-20 if it came with content comparable to the old WoW expansions. AoY would be worth around 7-10 for the unlockable visuals and short introduction sequence, as you essentially play the same content after the tutorial. The game was 20 euros in it's "silver" version at launch, half that price for a expansion is in order, although LoR offered more. So if it was B2P I'd roughly put AoY at 7.99, LoR at 14,99 and DR somewhere in between (at release date).
Since you mention WoW expansions, I'm pretty sure those were $40. IIRC, Rift's first expansion was around there as well.
Full budget-priced titles are $40. AAA titles are $50-60, and these days they often come with extra paywalls around content that's already on the disc. I suspect that this is just a way to make game prices seem static or even cheaper than they used to be, even though they cost more to develop and we need to account for inflation - MK3 was $70 in the mid-90s, which is equivalent to over $100 now. I see why they do it, but I think it would be more honest to say "this cost a ton to make, and inflation is a thing, so we're charging $110 for Call of Battleduty: Master Chief vs Darth Joker."
SWTOR charged $20 for its first few, so "industry standard" is false. Not that the premise makes any sense to begin with.
"Industry standard" doesn't mean "everyone does it exactly like this, guaranteed." It means it's a common practice that, when followed, allows for (ideally) predictable results.
What a useless thread that this has turned out to be.
It's only useless to people who refuse to understand the meaning of the word "if."
What if instead Cryptic decided to make new story mission content one time plays that drop from lockboxes? I mean. WHAT IF?
What if I never had to see a strawman argument again? WHAT IF?
Ironic since my post merely ridiculed your "if" statement and did not claim that you said anything. Meaning that your statement that my post was a strawman is... ironically... a strawman on your part. Awkward....
If all you have to say is "uh, no, YOU'RE a strawman! Ha!", I would appreciate it if you could please leave the thread instead of continuing to derail and harass. Thank you.
Yet another logical fallacy. I think we're done here. Good luck in your pursuit in trolling the devs.
Again, if you have nothing to contribute but trolling, derailment, and "no u," please leave. I don't appreciate the disruption.
If you don't appreciate it, then next time consider coming up with something coherent and isn't a useless "what if." There are some "what ifs" that can be interesting but this particular "what if" is just plain stupid.
Why are you still here? Can't you find another thread to try to derail?
What a useless thread that this has turned out to be.
It's only useless to people who refuse to understand the meaning of the word "if."
What if instead Cryptic decided to make new story mission content one time plays that drop from lockboxes? I mean. WHAT IF?
What if I never had to see a strawman argument again? WHAT IF?
Ironic since my post merely ridiculed your "if" statement and did not claim that you said anything. Meaning that your statement that my post was a strawman is... ironically... a strawman on your part. Awkward....
If all you have to say is "uh, no, YOU'RE a strawman! Ha!", I would appreciate it if you could please leave the thread instead of continuing to derail and harass. Thank you.
Yet another logical fallacy. I think we're done here. Good luck in your pursuit in trolling the devs.
Again, if you have nothing to contribute but trolling, derailment, and "no u," please leave. I don't appreciate the disruption.
If you don't appreciate it, then next time consider coming up with something coherent and isn't a useless "what if." There are some "what ifs" that can be interesting but this particular "what if" is just plain stupid.
I'm inclined to agree with this opinion, really.
As I stated before, if they started charging for expansions in this game, it will turn into a graveyard. That's not speculation- STO was originally launched as a B2P sub game and it wasn't a "huge success"... that's why it eventually went F2P (pretty much why any game goes F2P, really). Want to see a mass exodus of players? This would definitively be the method to drive people out of this game. They chose their market model when they introduced ship tier pricing (tier 5) and specialization restrictions in the C-store, and that's likely where it's going to remain. They offer "enhancement" packs in which you get a few extra ships, perks, etc. but they do not charge for "universal" game content.
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that this whole speculatory question is based on an overall solution of improving said future expansions, etc. a bit here. That said, "throwing money at it", does nothing to increase the value of game content.
Think of it this way- if you can get away with charging more for a product and still offer the same product- why on earth would you give more product? Why not just divert the extra profit into your coffers? What incentive do you have as a business or company to increase the value of a product by charging more for the same product?
Just a few things to ponder on. Perhaps the motivation for your question is based on something else- but I can really think of no other reason why anyone would walk down that path.
Where have you seen me suggesting that STO should be B2P? If you take a look at the title of this thread, and the content of the OP, you will see that I'm asking Cryptic if they think that this expansion compares favorably to other expansions; if, in the hypothetical situation of a B2P model, they would feel justified in charging a standard "expansion" price for it.
No i would not , nor do i buy expansions on other games, imo cryptic has a good way of doing things, you get free content and all you have to do is buy the shinys.
I will give cryptic credit they have one if not the best F2P model out there right now.
I think it's a good way of doing things too - good F2P model. It manages to sell powerful shinies without locking free players out of playing and defeating endgame content (with the slight downside that buying all the shinies can make some of that content a little too easy).
I was mostly asking Cryptic if what they're calling an expansion is comparable in value and substance to expansions offered for this game and others.
I am totally lost trying to track this mess, let me see if I got it right. The entire premise is that IF STO had charged us for the bag of Apples they gave us instead of giving it away, would it worth the same $40.00 that someone else charged for a crate of Oranges. Did I understand the premise of the question correctly ?
You got it almost right - instead of a bag of apples and a crate of oranges, though, it's similar products with the same label, viz, expansions for a modern MMORPG.
I am totally lost trying to track this mess, let me see if I got it right. The entire premise is that IF STO had charged us for the bag of Apples they gave us instead of giving it away, would it worth the same $40.00 that someone else charged for a crate of Oranges. Did I understand the premise of the question correctly ?
It is a mystery.
Only to people who want to cause trouble, and I would really appreciate it if you didn't do that.
I am totally lost trying to track this mess, let me see if I got it right. The entire premise is that IF STO had charged us for the bag of Apples they gave us instead of giving it away, would it worth the same $40.00 that someone else charged for a crate of Oranges. Did I understand the premise of the question correctly ?
What kind of stuff do other games have in their paid expansions? level cap raise, quests, dungeons maybe adventure or daily zones? pretty much the same thing that Cryptic is giving us for free? it seems more like we are getting a bag of free red apples, someone else is having to pay 40 dollars for a bag of green apples and the OP is wondering if our bag of red apples would be worth 40 dollars if Cryptic made us pay for it.
AoY doesn't have an increased level cap. The most comparable addition is the new spec, which doesn't affect a player's progression as a character (same rank), and serves as one of a number of mutually exclusive options (you can only use temporal spec if you turn off another spec).
Yes, there are quests and dungeons, but they are extremely limited. The AoY missions are an extended tutorial that you can finish in a day or two of casual play, and the new temporal missions are similarly limited ("Core of the Matter" was so awfully broken and buggy that I haven't tried the subsequent missions yet). As far as the dungeons, I've heard that Miner Instability is good, but haven't tried it yet. I'm kind of leery of these things given what I've seen before (like that time-gated Mirror space queue where you have to close portals and charge the beam, and half the time you end up sitting there literally waiting for the timer for 3-5 minutes until a flagship spawns).
I didn't know there was a new adventure zone. As far as I'm aware, the Mirror battlezone is the most recent, and it was added in a Season update (mid-expansion content patch). I'm also not aware of any new daily zone.
Yes, I'm wondering whether Cryptic considers this "bag of apples" to be comparable to other bags of apples, and if they weren't giving it away, would they charge what most other sellers of bags of apples charge.
I didn't think it was that complex a concept, but okay then.
It would absolutely be worth $40 if it came with 4000 zeni.
I'm actually not even being funny. Certain aspects of this release are the new Zeni ships & costumes, and I consider the Kelvin Lockbox and it content in addition to the grand prize ships to be part of this release.
I was given the choice. I could go with the very basic and get the new faction (a term I find more and more suitable as my 60th level TOS admiral continues to enjoy little flourishes long after I'd have burned through any additional exclusive mission content...) and missions and instances/que. Or I could choose to pay $50 and pick up the trio of all-faction ships which have given me hours of fun in various combinatons on various captains and will continue to simplify my admiralty gameplay with some very handy cards. Or I could choose to kick in $200 during the simultaneous zeni and key sale, then buy the cross faction battlecruiser pack and hit the new lock boxes like a rampaging bull and walk away with all three ships, a ton of good consoles, traits, manuals, weapons, and high tier doffs and most of the zeni I needed for a Vengeance and still have hundred's of millions of Ec worth of keys left over. I've even heard some people chose to get the Temporal Special Agent pack and all the old-school goodness it offers.
They set the floor very, very low (free), and then created some additional goodies across a range of price points. I don't really see how adding barriers to entry would help them. You don't need the extra stuff I chose to get to run the new ques, so frankly I want as many people as possible having access to those activities out of blatant SELF-interest. SO its really not a question of the worth of that content... its a question of the value of getting as many players as possible participating so that those that do choose to pay in more or even much more have folks around to play with.
This expansion consisted of 10% playable content and 90% new ships.
So in reality, it wasn't really a free expansion.
Just my opinion mind, but the free content was probably worth £5 to me at best.
LoR is still the gold standard, and I had no problem buying the ship pack, because there was so much to do!
That's an interesting perspective - that AoY is a partially B2P expansion already, with the ships and costumes being part of it, with the rest (tutorial, temporal spec, and broken animations) being a sort of "free tier." I hadn't thought of it that way.
I learned yesterday that Rift - another F2P game - is charging for its next expansion. This expansion includes a new level cap, several new zones, new abilities, and so on. It is only available as a cash purchase, without an option for using the tradeable "cash-equivalent" currency, putting it firmly into B2P territory.
It's not F2P (Free to Play) if you're required to pay to play it.
I wasn't clear; my apologies. Rift is currently touted as a free-to-play game, but with the expansion not being available for free (like the previous one was) it will be buy-to-play. I'm not sure whether they'll still call it F2P, but it wouldn't surprise me with all the nonsense they've pulled.
I give my kids birthday gifts. If they came back to me and said they felt my gifts were lame because the neighbor paid to go on a cruise and cruises have way more content than the free gifts I gave them, I would think they were nuts....and so here we are OP...trolling?
That's a good start of an analogy, but it's more like if you bought your kids big Lego sets or model cars for their birthday every year, and then one year their birthday gift is a Snickers bar.
40 currencies is the industry standard for expansions? You get full titles for that amount. For a MMO expansion I'd pay 15-20 if it came with content comparable to the old WoW expansions. AoY would be worth around 7-10 for the unlockable visuals and short introduction sequence, as you essentially play the same content after the tutorial. The game was 20 euros in it's "silver" version at launch, half that price for a expansion is in order, although LoR offered more. So if it was B2P I'd roughly put AoY at 7.99, LoR at 14,99 and DR somewhere in between (at release date).
Since you mention WoW expansions, I'm pretty sure those were $40. IIRC, Rift's first expansion was around there as well.
Full budget-priced titles are $40. AAA titles are $50-60, and these days they often come with extra paywalls around content that's already on the disc. I suspect that this is just a way to make game prices seem static or even cheaper than they used to be, even though they cost more to develop and we need to account for inflation - MK3 was $70 in the mid-90s, which is equivalent to over $100 now. I see why they do it, but I think it would be more honest to say "this cost a ton to make, and inflation is a thing, so we're charging $110 for Call of Battleduty: Master Chief vs Darth Joker."
SWTOR charged $20 for its first few, so "industry standard" is false. Not that the premise makes any sense to begin with.
"Industry standard" doesn't mean "everyone does it exactly like this, guaranteed." It means it's a common practice that, when followed, allows for (ideally) predictable results.
What a useless thread that this has turned out to be.
It's only useless to people who refuse to understand the meaning of the word "if."
What if instead Cryptic decided to make new story mission content one time plays that drop from lockboxes? I mean. WHAT IF?
What if I never had to see a strawman argument again? WHAT IF?
Ironic since my post merely ridiculed your "if" statement and did not claim that you said anything. Meaning that your statement that my post was a strawman is... ironically... a strawman on your part. Awkward....
If all you have to say is "uh, no, YOU'RE a strawman! Ha!", I would appreciate it if you could please leave the thread instead of continuing to derail and harass. Thank you.
Yet another logical fallacy. I think we're done here. Good luck in your pursuit in trolling the devs.
Again, if you have nothing to contribute but trolling, derailment, and "no u," please leave. I don't appreciate the disruption.
If you don't appreciate it, then next time consider coming up with something coherent and isn't a useless "what if." There are some "what ifs" that can be interesting but this particular "what if" is just plain stupid.
Why are you still here? Can't you find another thread to try to derail?
What a useless thread that this has turned out to be.
It's only useless to people who refuse to understand the meaning of the word "if."
What if instead Cryptic decided to make new story mission content one time plays that drop from lockboxes? I mean. WHAT IF?
What if I never had to see a strawman argument again? WHAT IF?
Ironic since my post merely ridiculed your "if" statement and did not claim that you said anything. Meaning that your statement that my post was a strawman is... ironically... a strawman on your part. Awkward....
If all you have to say is "uh, no, YOU'RE a strawman! Ha!", I would appreciate it if you could please leave the thread instead of continuing to derail and harass. Thank you.
Yet another logical fallacy. I think we're done here. Good luck in your pursuit in trolling the devs.
Again, if you have nothing to contribute but trolling, derailment, and "no u," please leave. I don't appreciate the disruption.
If you don't appreciate it, then next time consider coming up with something coherent and isn't a useless "what if." There are some "what ifs" that can be interesting but this particular "what if" is just plain stupid.
I'm inclined to agree with this opinion, really.
As I stated before, if they started charging for expansions in this game, it will turn into a graveyard. That's not speculation- STO was originally launched as a B2P sub game and it wasn't a "huge success"... that's why it eventually went F2P (pretty much why any game goes F2P, really). Want to see a mass exodus of players? This would definitively be the method to drive people out of this game. They chose their market model when they introduced ship tier pricing (tier 5) and specialization restrictions in the C-store, and that's likely where it's going to remain. They offer "enhancement" packs in which you get a few extra ships, perks, etc. but they do not charge for "universal" game content.
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that this whole speculatory question is based on an overall solution of improving said future expansions, etc. a bit here. That said, "throwing money at it", does nothing to increase the value of game content.
Think of it this way- if you can get away with charging more for a product and still offer the same product- why on earth would you give more product? Why not just divert the extra profit into your coffers? What incentive do you have as a business or company to increase the value of a product by charging more for the same product?
Just a few things to ponder on. Perhaps the motivation for your question is based on something else- but I can really think of no other reason why anyone would walk down that path.
Where have you seen me suggesting that STO should be B2P? If you take a look at the title of this thread, and the content of the OP, you will see that I'm asking Cryptic if they think that this expansion compares favorably to other expansions; if, in the hypothetical situation of a B2P model, they would feel justified in charging a standard "expansion" price for it.
No i would not , nor do i buy expansions on other games, imo cryptic has a good way of doing things, you get free content and all you have to do is buy the shinys.
I will give cryptic credit they have one if not the best F2P model out there right now.
I think it's a good way of doing things too - good F2P model. It manages to sell powerful shinies without locking free players out of playing and defeating endgame content (with the slight downside that buying all the shinies can make some of that content a little too easy).
I was mostly asking Cryptic if what they're calling an expansion is comparable in value and substance to expansions offered for this game and others.
I am totally lost trying to track this mess, let me see if I got it right. The entire premise is that IF STO had charged us for the bag of Apples they gave us instead of giving it away, would it worth the same $40.00 that someone else charged for a crate of Oranges. Did I understand the premise of the question correctly ?
You got it almost right - instead of a bag of apples and a crate of oranges, though, it's similar products with the same label, viz, expansions for a modern MMORPG.
I am totally lost trying to track this mess, let me see if I got it right. The entire premise is that IF STO had charged us for the bag of Apples they gave us instead of giving it away, would it worth the same $40.00 that someone else charged for a crate of Oranges. Did I understand the premise of the question correctly ?
It is a mystery.
Only to people who want to cause trouble, and I would really appreciate it if you didn't do that.
I am totally lost trying to track this mess, let me see if I got it right. The entire premise is that IF STO had charged us for the bag of Apples they gave us instead of giving it away, would it worth the same $40.00 that someone else charged for a crate of Oranges. Did I understand the premise of the question correctly ?
What kind of stuff do other games have in their paid expansions? level cap raise, quests, dungeons maybe adventure or daily zones? pretty much the same thing that Cryptic is giving us for free? it seems more like we are getting a bag of free red apples, someone else is having to pay 40 dollars for a bag of green apples and the OP is wondering if our bag of red apples would be worth 40 dollars if Cryptic made us pay for it.
Yes, I'm wondering whether Cryptic considers this "bag of apples" to be comparable to other bags of apples, and if they weren't giving it away, would they charge what most other sellers of bags of apples charge.
I didn't think it was that complex a concept, but okay then.
Looking at all expacs not just AoY, even though that's all the OP was talking about. In Delta and LoR we got quite a bit more than we did in AoY but it was still free.
If quest stuff, dungeons level cap raises and specs are our "apples" then lets say that costumes and ships are Cryptics "oranges" . Do games like Rift also charge for costumes or anything that might be comparable to a ship? something that is like a mix of aesthetic+gear+gear holder or whatever? maybe a mount or some kind of combat pet or something that they have to pay for that isn't a costume. If they did then that means that other games like Rift are having to pay for expansions AND costumes and weapons or whatever else? now that must suck for them.
Looking at all expacs not just AoY, even though that's all the OP was talking about. In Delta and LoR we got quite a bit more than we did in AoY but it was still free.
If quest stuff, dungeons level cap raises and specs are our "apples" then lets say that costumes and ships are Cryptics "oranges" . Do games like Rift also charge for costumes or anything that might be comparable to a ship? something that is like a mix of aesthetic+gear+gear holder or whatever? maybe a mount or some kind of combat pet or something that they have to pay for that isn't a costume. If they did then that means that other games like Rift are having to pay for expansions AND costumes and weapons or whatever else? now that must suck for them.
Rift charges for everything. They even moved rested XP to subscribers only. I have no idea how good the upcoming expansion will be, but it does sound like there will be a lot to do in it, and it could be good.
What I'm interested in is AoY's quality and quantity, not its value per dollar (which is infinite, and not really a useful number in this case). When I compare it to other similarly-treated releases ("expansions") for STO and other games, it seems meager to me (and pretty buggy, too - I'm kind of miffed at the state of ground animations now).
@ferranor It seems I was wrong indeed, the recent wow expansion was 60 at release, you get the base game and all four previous ones in a bundle for 10 though. Still 60 is a hefty price tag. I am pretty sure I got burning crusade back in the day for 20, I haven't played after that though. I just assumed the price stayed the same. I'd not pay that much for a expansion in any case. Half the original games' price would be my personal hard cap. Also my regions' pricing might be different.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The comparison is really pretty pointless. The whole argument seems to be: "This thing you called expansion is not an expansion to me, because it's not big enough". And then you invent a price tag for it to prove your point, because "no one" would pay that arbitrarily chosen price tag. So what? it doesn't have that price tag. "Expansion" is a label, and there is no reason why a new faction starting story and a new faction look and feel should not be worth that label.
Not every expansion has to be identical in nature and size of content.
If you believe you can somehow scare Cryptic in taking away that label or creating new content for AOY with such nonsense, think again. That's not how it works.
But if you want to play further with the price tag for an expansion thing: What would you have paid for AOY including the Future Proof Arc and the Temporal Specialization?
Because you don't think you would have gotten any of that for free if Cryptic was selling content expansions instead of ship packs, do you?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
The comparison is really pretty pointless. The whole argument seems to be: "This thing you called expansion is not an expansion to me, because it's not big enough". And then you invent a price tag for it to prove your point, because "no one" would pay that arbitrarily chosen price tag. So what? it doesn't have that price tag. "Expansion" is a label, and there is no reason why a new faction starting story and a new faction look and feel should not be worth that label.
Not every expansion has to be identical in nature and size of content.
If you believe you can somehow scare Cryptic in taking away that label or creating new content for AOY with such nonsense, think again. That's not how it works.
But if you want to play further with the price tag for an expansion thing: What would you have paid for AOY including the Future Proof Arc and the Temporal Specialization?
Because you don't think you would have gotten any of that for free if Cryptic was selling content expansions instead of ship packs, do you?
If you think it's pointless, why are you responding? Might as well leave it to people who do see the point, right?
I didn't "invent" an "arbitrary" price tag. $40 is extremely common for expansions, and AoY is being called an expansion. Yes, it is a label, and words are used to communicate meaning. The reason for a starting story, broken animations, and a spec tree (which I was able to fill immediately on the characters that wanted to use it) not being worth that label is because such small updates usually get a different label, like "season" or "patch."
"Not every expansion has to be identical in nature and size of content." That's true, and claiming that every expansion has to be identical would indeed be absurd, but it's not even close to what I said, which was that an upcoming expansion for a different game sounds "absolutely vast by comparison." That's the problem with strawmanning: it doesn't work.
Who thinks I'm trying to scare Cryptic into anything? You, perhaps? Why? I'm asking whether the AoY "expansion" compares favorably to other expansions, making it more concrete by asking them what the price tag would be if STO's expansions were B2P. If you think you can put words into my mouth and prove me wrong by refuting things I didn't say, think again. That's not how it works. That's the second strawman argument you've used in a single post.
Personally, if AoY were B2P, I might pay 500z for the TOS content and temporal agent recruitment event, seeing as how the latter is a limited-time thing. I could see another 500z for the Future Proof arc and the new spec (maybe 500z for each?), but I likely wouldn't buy them. So I guess that means I see the expansion's free content (as opposed to the paid content, viz ships et al., which other posters have very reasonably suggested can be considered a paid portion of the expansion) as having a value of $10-15, parts of which I wouldn't be too interested in.
But I'm asking Cryptic what their answer to that question would be.
But I'm asking Cryptic what their answer to that question would be.
I'm pretty sure it'd be close to "No, because that never was our intent".
You don't think Cryptic ever intended the expansion to meet the de facto definition of what an expansion is?
Do you officially speak for Cryptic, or are you just guessing?
Expansion:
1/ The act or process of expanding.
2/ A new addition.
3/ A product to be used with a previous product.
AoY sounds like an expansion to me. It adds a new specialization, a new tutorial, with new environments, new costumes, new unlocks, new queues, new UI, new effects, new missions, new voice actors, new characters, etc. It's a small expansion, but an expansion nonetheless, and a free one at that.
The comparison is really pretty pointless. The whole argument seems to be: "This thing you called expansion is not an expansion to me, because it's not big enough". And then you invent a price tag for it to prove your point, because "no one" would pay that arbitrarily chosen price tag. So what? it doesn't have that price tag. "Expansion" is a label, and there is no reason why a new faction starting story and a new faction look and feel should not be worth that label.
Not every expansion has to be identical in nature and size of content.
If you believe you can somehow scare Cryptic in taking away that label or creating new content for AOY with such nonsense, think again. That's not how it works.
But if you want to play further with the price tag for an expansion thing: What would you have paid for AOY including the Future Proof Arc and the Temporal Specialization?
Because you don't think you would have gotten any of that for free if Cryptic was selling content expansions instead of ship packs, do you?
If you think it's pointless, why are you responding? Might as well leave it to people who do see the point, right?
To point out it's pointless. Because someone is wrong on the internet. There is no greater crime one can commit on a forum, other than poor spelling and lacking punctuation and paragraphs.
I didn't "invent" an "arbitrary" price tag. $40 is extremely common for expansions, and AoY is being called an expansion. Yes, it is a label, and words are used to communicate meaning. The reason for a starting story, broken animations, and a spec tree (which I was able to fill immediately on the characters that wanted to use it) not being worth that label is because such small updates usually get a different label, like "season" or "patch."
"Not every expansion has to be identical in nature and size of content." That's true, and claiming that every expansion has to be identical would indeed be absurd, but it's not even close to what I said, which was that an upcoming expansion for a different game sounds "absolutely vast by comparison." That's the problem with strawmanning: it doesn't work.
Who thinks I'm trying to scare Cryptic into anything? You, perhaps? Why? I'm asking whether the AoY "expansion" compares favorably to other expansions, making it more concrete by asking them what the price tag would be if STO's expansions were B2P. If you think you can put words into my mouth and prove me wrong by refuting things I didn't say, think again. That's not how it works. That's the second strawman argument you've used in a single post.
Personally, if AoY were B2P, I might pay 500z for the TOS content and temporal agent recruitment event, seeing as how the latter is a limited-time thing. I could see another 500z for the Future Proof arc and the new spec (maybe 500z for each?), but I likely wouldn't buy them. So I guess that means I see the expansion's free content (as opposed to the paid content, viz ships et al., which other posters have very reasonably suggested can be considered a paid portion of the expansion) as having a value of $10-15, parts of which I wouldn't be too interested in.
But I'm asking Cryptic what their answer to that question would be.
If you think it's pointless, why are you responding? Might as well leave it to people who do see the point, right?
I didn't "invent" an "arbitrary" price tag. $40 is extremely common for expansions, and AoY is being called an expansion. Yes, it is a label, and words are used to communicate meaning. The reason for a starting story, broken animations, and a spec tree (which I was able to fill immediately on the characters that wanted to use it) not being worth that label is because such small updates usually get a different label, like "season" or "patch."
40 $ is extremely common for expansions.
For some reason, however, Cryptic does not ask 40 $ for expansions. They already break that "common" rule. Why would they need to obey other rules that you determined based on stuff other games do?
What if they don't TRIBBLE care what set of rules you think make an expansion, or what other companies think makes an expansion, and they have their own definition?
Why should a "patch" that consists of 6 new missions for a new faction that comes with unique visuals for effects and new interface sounds that have never been different before between factions ever before not be called an expansion? Why should it be called a Season, when in 11 seasons or so there has never been a single one that brought a new faction, or faction-unique sound effects for UI? When new missions were never strictly linked to seasons?
Why measure the standards against the "industry" first, rather than against Cryptic's own "standards"?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
But I'm asking Cryptic what their answer to that question would be.
I'm pretty sure it'd be close to "No, because that never was our intent".
You don't think Cryptic ever intended the expansion to meet the de facto definition of what an expansion is?
Do you officially speak for Cryptic, or are you just guessing?
Expansion:
1/ The act or process of expanding.
2/ A new addition.
3/ A product to be used with a previous product.
AoY sounds like an expansion to me. It adds a new specialization, a new tutorial, with new environments, new costumes, new unlocks, new queues, new UI, new effects, new missions, new voice actors, new characters, etc. It's a small expansion, but an expansion nonetheless, and a free one at that.
You're going with the generic dictionary definition of "expansion," which could apply to anything from a game to a chemical, rather than referring to expansion packs for MMORPGs like everyone else is? Why? What do you gain by being pedantic and contrary?
and then you call it "small" nonetheless. So... you agree with me? Why was all that other flailing even necessary?
The comparison is really pretty pointless. The whole argument seems to be: "This thing you called expansion is not an expansion to me, because it's not big enough". And then you invent a price tag for it to prove your point, because "no one" would pay that arbitrarily chosen price tag. So what? it doesn't have that price tag. "Expansion" is a label, and there is no reason why a new faction starting story and a new faction look and feel should not be worth that label.
Not every expansion has to be identical in nature and size of content.
If you believe you can somehow scare Cryptic in taking away that label or creating new content for AOY with such nonsense, think again. That's not how it works.
But if you want to play further with the price tag for an expansion thing: What would you have paid for AOY including the Future Proof Arc and the Temporal Specialization?
Because you don't think you would have gotten any of that for free if Cryptic was selling content expansions instead of ship packs, do you?
If you think it's pointless, why are you responding? Might as well leave it to people who do see the point, right?
To point out it's pointless. Because someone is wrong on the internet. There is no greater crime one can commit on a forum, other than poor spelling and lacking punctuation and paragraphs.
I didn't "invent" an "arbitrary" price tag. $40 is extremely common for expansions, and AoY is being called an expansion. Yes, it is a label, and words are used to communicate meaning. The reason for a starting story, broken animations, and a spec tree (which I was able to fill immediately on the characters that wanted to use it) not being worth that label is because such small updates usually get a different label, like "season" or "patch."
"Not every expansion has to be identical in nature and size of content." That's true, and claiming that every expansion has to be identical would indeed be absurd, but it's not even close to what I said, which was that an upcoming expansion for a different game sounds "absolutely vast by comparison." That's the problem with strawmanning: it doesn't work.
Who thinks I'm trying to scare Cryptic into anything? You, perhaps? Why? I'm asking whether the AoY "expansion" compares favorably to other expansions, making it more concrete by asking them what the price tag would be if STO's expansions were B2P. If you think you can put words into my mouth and prove me wrong by refuting things I didn't say, think again. That's not how it works. That's the second strawman argument you've used in a single post.
Personally, if AoY were B2P, I might pay 500z for the TOS content and temporal agent recruitment event, seeing as how the latter is a limited-time thing. I could see another 500z for the Future Proof arc and the new spec (maybe 500z for each?), but I likely wouldn't buy them. So I guess that means I see the expansion's free content (as opposed to the paid content, viz ships et al., which other posters have very reasonably suggested can be considered a paid portion of the expansion) as having a value of $10-15, parts of which I wouldn't be too interested in.
But I'm asking Cryptic what their answer to that question would be.
If you think it's pointless, why are you responding? Might as well leave it to people who do see the point, right?
I didn't "invent" an "arbitrary" price tag. $40 is extremely common for expansions, and AoY is being called an expansion. Yes, it is a label, and words are used to communicate meaning. The reason for a starting story, broken animations, and a spec tree (which I was able to fill immediately on the characters that wanted to use it) not being worth that label is because such small updates usually get a different label, like "season" or "patch."/quote]
40 $ is extremely common for expansions.
For some reason, however, Cryptic does not ask 40 $ for expansions. They already break that "common" rule. Why would they need to obey other rules that you determined based on stuff other games do?
What if they don't **** care what set of rules you think make an expansion, or what other companies think makes an expansion, and they have their own definition?
Why should a "patch" that consists of 6 new missions for a new faction that comes with unique visuals for effects and new interface sounds that have never been different before between factions ever before not be called an expansion? Why should it be called a Season, when in 11 seasons or so there has never been a single one that brought a new faction, or faction-unique sound effects for UI? When new missions were never strictly linked to seasons?
Why measure the standards against the "industry" first, rather than against Cryptic's own "standards"?
[/quote]
Break one common rule equals breaking all common rules. That is an interesting logical leap.
Talking about "other" games when STO's previous expansions have been brought up in this very thread several times. That is an interesting oversight.
Swearing. That is an interesting way of conducting a respectful conversation.
Forgetting that there already were different interface sounds between factions. That is an interesting way of demonstrating that you understand the significance of other factions.
Calling any change at all an expansion when the whole point of this thread is that an "expansion" is traditionally much larger than this, while smaller changes are termed patches or seasons. That is an interesting way of showing us that you read the thread.
Ignoring the fact that I also called into question the TOS "faction's" status as a faction. That is an interesting way of ignoring the point of the thread.
Forgetting that Cryptic's previous expansions for STO were much more expansive. That is another interesting way of demonstrating that you read the thread.
I would ask you to define precisely what an expansion... sorry, a video game expansion, since according to you, these are two different things, but,... actually, yes, I'm asking you.
I would ask you to define precisely what an expansion... sorry, a video game expansion, since according to you, these are two different things, but,... actually, yes, I'm asking you.
Sorry, I'm not in the mood to pretend that you're being sincere and not trolling. Please find a different thread to troll. That goes for everyone who's being unconstructive and rude, by the way.
AOY is an expansion, it expands the game content by adding new material, skills, ships, missions and other content. Compared to other STO expansions it might be considered small but face it, there's never been a hard and fast rule on what is an expansion in STO. Some of the season updates have held just as much content as some of the expansions (e.g. the Solanae sphere was pretty big) so there's no clear definition.
You cannot really compare a paid expansion with our free ones as they are from games with wildly different pricing structures. STO is aimed purely at being f2p and with only what amounts to cosmetic stuff and alternate ships being paid for. Other games with paid content releases are less forgiving and demand more of their players financially, so in return their players expect a decent return on their investment. Their expansions are worth the cost to their players, because they are used to paying for them and also because they feel they are value for money for the content involved. I think STO would be hard pressed to charge $40 for something like AOY without losing players. People are used to getting free access but paying for shiny things, to change that would be a failure I think.
So the two cannot really be compared. Perhaps a better question would be to ask what people think the expansion is worth and what they are willing to pay.
I would ask you to define precisely what an expansion... sorry, a video game expansion, since according to you, these are two different things, but,... actually, yes, I'm asking you.
Sorry, I'm not in the mood to pretend that you're being sincere and not trolling. Please find a different thread to troll. That goes for everyone who's being unconstructive and rude, by the way.
Asking again, more clearly: What is an expansion, for you?
Break one common rule equals breaking all common rules. That is an interesting logical leap.
Well,l you started with the logic leaps, so I think you liked them.
That another companies sells expansions and puts a 40 $ price tag on them does not mean that a company that does not sell its expansions but provides them for free must provide content worth 40 $ in it is already an incredibly logic leap.
You assume Cryptic is following some "common rules", with the "commonality" being defined that other games do it like that.
But Cryptic actually does things differently than many other games. Story content for free is a rarity. Concepts like the Zen/Dilithium exchange do not exist in every F2P title. Cryptic has considerably customziation options for characters for free already. Having Space and Ground content integrated in the game (and in the story content even more so) is rare. They do a lot of things differently then other companies, and now you come and say that this one part, "expansions", must follow the model of all the other games. Where is the logic in that?
And you insist on usin that 40 $ price tag. Would it not be hypothetically possible for a company to sell one expansion at 40 $ and another expansion at 80 $ and yet another at 20 $, each with different amounts and type of content? Would the 20 $ not possibly qualify as expansion because it's only 20 $?
Forgetting that there already were different interface sounds between factions. That is an interesting way of demonstrating that you understand the significance of other factions.
Check again. For example, do some Admirality or DOFF tasks and listen to the UI sounds. Notice how every faction but AOY has the same sounds?
When you play an AOY character, you can fly the fanciest lockbox ship and wear the weirdest off-duty costumes - you'll never miss that you're playing an AOY character.
Calling any change at all an expansion when the whole point of this thread is that an "expansion" is traditionally much larger than this, while smaller changes are termed patches or seasons. That is an interesting way of showing us that you read the thread.
And it's completely impossible to break with traditions, and doing so would be wrong and dishonest or bad business or something?
Forgetting that Cryptic's previous expansions for STO were much more expansive.
And? They also didn't provide us with new faction aesthetics in User Interface and mission design. New Romulus and Delta Rising still looked like the rest of the game. It's still "expansive".
An expansion is not just measured by the number of missions in it, no matter how much yo uwant that to be. And expansions do also not need to have the same size. Since Cryptic always asks the same price - 0 $ - for an expansion, they have liberal freedoms in how they handle this. (Of course, if they asked a price for their expansions and story content, they also would have the freedom to ask for different prices each time.)
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Break one common rule equals breaking all common rules. That is an interesting logical leap.
Well,l you started with the logic leaps, so I think you liked them.
That another companies sells expansions and puts a 40 $ price tag on them does not mean that a company that does not sell its expansions but provides them for free must provide content worth 40 $ in it is already an incredibly logic leap.
You assume Cryptic is following some "common rules", with the "commonality" being defined that other games do it like that.
But Cryptic actually does things differently than many other games. Story content for free is a rarity. Concepts like the Zen/Dilithium exchange do not exist in every F2P title. Cryptic has considerably customziation options for characters for free already. Having Space and Ground content integrated in the game (and in the story content even more so) is rare. They do a lot of things differently then other companies, and now you come and say that this one part, "expansions", must follow the model of all the other games. Where is the logic in that?
And you insist on usin that 40 $ price tag. Would it not be hypothetically possible for a company to sell one expansion at 40 $ and another expansion at 80 $ and yet another at 20 $, each with different amounts and type of content? Would the 20 $ not possibly qualify as expansion because it's only 20 $?
Forgetting that there already were different interface sounds between factions. That is an interesting way of demonstrating that you understand the significance of other factions.
Check again. For example, do some Admirality or DOFF tasks and listen to the UI sounds. Notice how every faction but AOY has the same sounds?
When you play an AOY character, you can fly the fanciest lockbox ship and wear the weirdest off-duty costumes - you'll never miss that you're playing an AOY character.
Calling any change at all an expansion when the whole point of this thread is that an "expansion" is traditionally much larger than this, while smaller changes are termed patches or seasons. That is an interesting way of showing us that you read the thread.
And it's completely impossible to break with traditions, and doing so would be wrong and dishonest or bad business or something?
Forgetting that Cryptic's previous expansions for STO were much more expansive.
And? They also didn't provide us with new faction aesthetics in User Interface and mission design. New Romulus and Delta Rising still looked like the rest of the game. It's still "expansive".
An expansion is not just measured by the number of missions in it, no matter how much yo uwant that to be. And expansions do also not need to have the same size. Since Cryptic always asks the same price - 0 $ - for an expansion, they have liberal freedoms in how they handle this. (Of course, if they asked a price for their expansions and story content, they also would have the freedom to ask for different prices each time.)
"No YOU have logic leaps!" Please behave like an adult.
Company A says "this is an expansion" to tell customers what's being offered. Company B says "this is an expansion" to tell customers what's being offered. Then company B says "this is an expansion" but offers something that's noticeably different from what customers come to expect. I'm asking Cryptic if they feel that AoY compares to other "expansions." And your response is "well, it doesn't have to! It's different! It can be different!" That's not even meaningful.
Yes, I assume Cryptic follows common rules of communicating clearly so that they can be understood. How would you like it if you found a great deal on potato chips at the grocery store and found that they were only a "great deal" because the bag was mostly empty?
I suggest you check again. The interface has different sounds for Fed and KDF already, and I don't have any Romulan characters but I bet their UI sounds are different as well. For your listening pleasure, here is an mp3 of the following:
Federation character opening a nebula cluster dialog
Federation character clicking some buttons in the doffing window
Federation character closing the doff window and getting the nebula cluster interaction prompt
KDF character opening a nebula cluster dialog
KDF character clicking some buttons in the doffing window
KDF character closing the doff window and getting the nebula cluster interaction prompt
Fed doff window buttons followed immediately by KDF window buttons for easier comparison
I asked if Cryptic felt that the AoY expansion offers similar value to other expansions, and if they would feel justified in offering it for the usual price if STO ran on B2P. Your response seems to be along the lines of "no, I don't suppose they would, but sometimes people use words to mean different things than other people are used to, and that's just fine." That's a great excuse for hyping up what is, at best, a season patch into a full expansion with a full new faction, and hoping that people wander in with high expectations without immediately leaving.
"Expansions can be different sizes" and "prices can be whatever they want" are totally irrelevant to the question, which is whether AoY compares favorably to other expansions. How happy would you be with, say, an "expansion" for, say, $30 that consisted of nothing more than a popup window saying "thanks for playing"? What if it were free? Would you still be saying that such an expansion is comparable to others, because its cost of $0 gives it literally infinite value?
I'd like to remind you that nothing in STO is "free." The game merely follows the F2P financial model. Players are expected to pay in money at various points, generally due to an expectation of value received in return. Just because some bit of content doesn't have a price tag on it doesn't mean you're playing a free game.
Now if you wouldn't mind trolling somewhere else, I would really appreciate it.
Please stop saying people are trolling simply because they disagree with your logic, it's annoying.
You really think that a veteran player isn't trolling when he says that every faction has the same interface sounds except for AoY? Give me a break. "Annoying" isn't the half of it. I'm starting to wonder when the mods will show up to remove the people who are derailing this thread.
You're talking to someone whose made their living for the last 15 year writing. Preaching to the choir on that front.
One of the useful skills in wordsmithing is understanding definite versus indefinite terms. The difference between a cup of sugar and a handful. "Very" is evocative, "Double" is specific.
I'm pretty sure "expansion" is in the handful of content category.
You're talking to someone whose made their living for the last 15 year writing. Preaching to the choir on that front.
One of the useful skills in wordsmithing is understanding definite versus indefinite terms. The difference between a cup of sugar and a handful. "Very" is evocative, "Double" is specific.
I'm pretty sure "expansion" is in the handful of content category.
Nice to meet you! Technical writer here, with an AA in Technical Writing and a BA in Communications.
Looks like your argument from authority didn't work out too well, did it? =\ Sorry about that. Better luck next time! But please do it in someone else's thread.
But thankfully, since we have a Technical writer with an AA in Technical Writing and a BA in Communications on hand, it should be easy for you to give us an ABSOLUTE value for the amount of material in a "handful".
And when you're done failing at that you can give us an ABSOLUTE value for the amount of content in an "expansion" and pretend that somehow games and the companies that make them aren't even more diverse that the variation amongst human hands.
If a supposed FTP game charges for expansions, then they are not FTP.
There is no logic in comparing FTP with BTP. STO is FTP, one does not have to buy anything to be able to play any of its content. Yes, the 'good' stuff costs money and they have a LTS fee for those who want it, they have to make their money from somewhere.
But. One can play this game without spending one red cent or euro.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
Comments
What kind of stuff do other games have in their paid expansions? level cap raise, quests, dungeons maybe adventure or daily zones? pretty much the same thing that Cryptic is giving us for free? it seems more like we are getting a bag of free red apples, someone else is having to pay 40 dollars for a bag of green apples and the OP is wondering if our bag of red apples would be worth 40 dollars if Cryptic made us pay for it.
That's an interesting perspective - that AoY is a partially B2P expansion already, with the ships and costumes being part of it, with the rest (tutorial, temporal spec, and broken animations) being a sort of "free tier." I hadn't thought of it that way.
I wasn't clear; my apologies. Rift is currently touted as a free-to-play game, but with the expansion not being available for free (like the previous one was) it will be buy-to-play. I'm not sure whether they'll still call it F2P, but it wouldn't surprise me with all the nonsense they've pulled.
That's a good start of an analogy, but it's more like if you bought your kids big Lego sets or model cars for their birthday every year, and then one year their birthday gift is a Snickers bar.
The fun-size version.
You would have some confused looks on your hands.
Since you mention WoW expansions, I'm pretty sure those were $40. IIRC, Rift's first expansion was around there as well.
Full budget-priced titles are $40. AAA titles are $50-60, and these days they often come with extra paywalls around content that's already on the disc. I suspect that this is just a way to make game prices seem static or even cheaper than they used to be, even though they cost more to develop and we need to account for inflation - MK3 was $70 in the mid-90s, which is equivalent to over $100 now. I see why they do it, but I think it would be more honest to say "this cost a ton to make, and inflation is a thing, so we're charging $110 for Call of Battleduty: Master Chief vs Darth Joker."
"Industry standard" doesn't mean "everyone does it exactly like this, guaranteed." It means it's a common practice that, when followed, allows for (ideally) predictable results.
Why are you still here? Can't you find another thread to try to derail?
Where have you seen me suggesting that STO should be B2P? If you take a look at the title of this thread, and the content of the OP, you will see that I'm asking Cryptic if they think that this expansion compares favorably to other expansions; if, in the hypothetical situation of a B2P model, they would feel justified in charging a standard "expansion" price for it.
I think it's a good way of doing things too - good F2P model. It manages to sell powerful shinies without locking free players out of playing and defeating endgame content (with the slight downside that buying all the shinies can make some of that content a little too easy).
I was mostly asking Cryptic if what they're calling an expansion is comparable in value and substance to expansions offered for this game and others.
You got it almost right - instead of a bag of apples and a crate of oranges, though, it's similar products with the same label, viz, expansions for a modern MMORPG.
Only to people who want to cause trouble, and I would really appreciate it if you didn't do that.
AoY doesn't have an increased level cap. The most comparable addition is the new spec, which doesn't affect a player's progression as a character (same rank), and serves as one of a number of mutually exclusive options (you can only use temporal spec if you turn off another spec).
Yes, there are quests and dungeons, but they are extremely limited. The AoY missions are an extended tutorial that you can finish in a day or two of casual play, and the new temporal missions are similarly limited ("Core of the Matter" was so awfully broken and buggy that I haven't tried the subsequent missions yet). As far as the dungeons, I've heard that Miner Instability is good, but haven't tried it yet. I'm kind of leery of these things given what I've seen before (like that time-gated Mirror space queue where you have to close portals and charge the beam, and half the time you end up sitting there literally waiting for the timer for 3-5 minutes until a flagship spawns).
I didn't know there was a new adventure zone. As far as I'm aware, the Mirror battlezone is the most recent, and it was added in a Season update (mid-expansion content patch). I'm also not aware of any new daily zone.
Yes, I'm wondering whether Cryptic considers this "bag of apples" to be comparable to other bags of apples, and if they weren't giving it away, would they charge what most other sellers of bags of apples charge.
I didn't think it was that complex a concept, but okay then.
Looking at all expacs not just AoY, even though that's all the OP was talking about. In Delta and LoR we got quite a bit more than we did in AoY but it was still free.
If quest stuff, dungeons level cap raises and specs are our "apples" then lets say that costumes and ships are Cryptics "oranges" . Do games like Rift also charge for costumes or anything that might be comparable to a ship? something that is like a mix of aesthetic+gear+gear holder or whatever? maybe a mount or some kind of combat pet or something that they have to pay for that isn't a costume. If they did then that means that other games like Rift are having to pay for expansions AND costumes and weapons or whatever else? now that must suck for them.
Rift charges for everything. They even moved rested XP to subscribers only. I have no idea how good the upcoming expansion will be, but it does sound like there will be a lot to do in it, and it could be good.
What I'm interested in is AoY's quality and quantity, not its value per dollar (which is infinite, and not really a useful number in this case). When I compare it to other similarly-treated releases ("expansions") for STO and other games, it seems meager to me (and pretty buggy, too - I'm kind of miffed at the state of ground animations now).
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Not every expansion has to be identical in nature and size of content.
If you believe you can somehow scare Cryptic in taking away that label or creating new content for AOY with such nonsense, think again. That's not how it works.
But if you want to play further with the price tag for an expansion thing: What would you have paid for AOY including the Future Proof Arc and the Temporal Specialization?
Because you don't think you would have gotten any of that for free if Cryptic was selling content expansions instead of ship packs, do you?
If you think it's pointless, why are you responding? Might as well leave it to people who do see the point, right?
I didn't "invent" an "arbitrary" price tag. $40 is extremely common for expansions, and AoY is being called an expansion. Yes, it is a label, and words are used to communicate meaning. The reason for a starting story, broken animations, and a spec tree (which I was able to fill immediately on the characters that wanted to use it) not being worth that label is because such small updates usually get a different label, like "season" or "patch."
"Not every expansion has to be identical in nature and size of content." That's true, and claiming that every expansion has to be identical would indeed be absurd, but it's not even close to what I said, which was that an upcoming expansion for a different game sounds "absolutely vast by comparison." That's the problem with strawmanning: it doesn't work.
Who thinks I'm trying to scare Cryptic into anything? You, perhaps? Why? I'm asking whether the AoY "expansion" compares favorably to other expansions, making it more concrete by asking them what the price tag would be if STO's expansions were B2P. If you think you can put words into my mouth and prove me wrong by refuting things I didn't say, think again. That's not how it works. That's the second strawman argument you've used in a single post.
Personally, if AoY were B2P, I might pay 500z for the TOS content and temporal agent recruitment event, seeing as how the latter is a limited-time thing. I could see another 500z for the Future Proof arc and the new spec (maybe 500z for each?), but I likely wouldn't buy them. So I guess that means I see the expansion's free content (as opposed to the paid content, viz ships et al., which other posters have very reasonably suggested can be considered a paid portion of the expansion) as having a value of $10-15, parts of which I wouldn't be too interested in.
But I'm asking Cryptic what their answer to that question would be.
You don't think Cryptic ever intended the expansion to meet the de facto definition of what an expansion is?
Do you officially speak for Cryptic, or are you just guessing?
AoY sounds like an expansion to me. It adds a new specialization, a new tutorial, with new environments, new costumes, new unlocks, new queues, new UI, new effects, new missions, new voice actors, new characters, etc. It's a small expansion, but an expansion nonetheless, and a free one at that.
For some reason, however, Cryptic does not ask 40 $ for expansions. They already break that "common" rule. Why would they need to obey other rules that you determined based on stuff other games do?
What if they don't TRIBBLE care what set of rules you think make an expansion, or what other companies think makes an expansion, and they have their own definition?
Why should a "patch" that consists of 6 new missions for a new faction that comes with unique visuals for effects and new interface sounds that have never been different before between factions ever before not be called an expansion? Why should it be called a Season, when in 11 seasons or so there has never been a single one that brought a new faction, or faction-unique sound effects for UI? When new missions were never strictly linked to seasons?
Why measure the standards against the "industry" first, rather than against Cryptic's own "standards"?
You're going with the generic dictionary definition of "expansion," which could apply to anything from a game to a chemical, rather than referring to expansion packs for MMORPGs like everyone else is? Why? What do you gain by being pedantic and contrary?
and then you call it "small" nonetheless. So... you agree with me? Why was all that other flailing even necessary?
For some reason, however, Cryptic does not ask 40 $ for expansions. They already break that "common" rule. Why would they need to obey other rules that you determined based on stuff other games do?
What if they don't **** care what set of rules you think make an expansion, or what other companies think makes an expansion, and they have their own definition?
Why should a "patch" that consists of 6 new missions for a new faction that comes with unique visuals for effects and new interface sounds that have never been different before between factions ever before not be called an expansion? Why should it be called a Season, when in 11 seasons or so there has never been a single one that brought a new faction, or faction-unique sound effects for UI? When new missions were never strictly linked to seasons?
Why measure the standards against the "industry" first, rather than against Cryptic's own "standards"?
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Break one common rule equals breaking all common rules. That is an interesting logical leap.
Talking about "other" games when STO's previous expansions have been brought up in this very thread several times. That is an interesting oversight.
Swearing. That is an interesting way of conducting a respectful conversation.
Forgetting that there already were different interface sounds between factions. That is an interesting way of demonstrating that you understand the significance of other factions.
Calling any change at all an expansion when the whole point of this thread is that an "expansion" is traditionally much larger than this, while smaller changes are termed patches or seasons. That is an interesting way of showing us that you read the thread.
Ignoring the fact that I also called into question the TOS "faction's" status as a faction. That is an interesting way of ignoring the point of the thread.
Forgetting that Cryptic's previous expansions for STO were much more expansive. That is another interesting way of demonstrating that you read the thread.
I would ask you to define precisely what an expansion... sorry, a video game expansion, since according to you, these are two different things, but,... actually, yes, I'm asking you.
Sorry, I'm not in the mood to pretend that you're being sincere and not trolling. Please find a different thread to troll. That goes for everyone who's being unconstructive and rude, by the way.
Compared to other STO expansions it might be considered small but face it, there's never been a hard and fast rule on what is an expansion in STO. Some of the season updates have held just as much content as some of the expansions (e.g. the Solanae sphere was pretty big) so there's no clear definition.
You cannot really compare a paid expansion with our free ones as they are from games with wildly different pricing structures. STO is aimed purely at being f2p and with only what amounts to cosmetic stuff and alternate ships being paid for. Other games with paid content releases are less forgiving and demand more of their players financially, so in return their players expect a decent return on their investment. Their expansions are worth the cost to their players, because they are used to paying for them and also because they feel they are value for money for the content involved.
I think STO would be hard pressed to charge $40 for something like AOY without losing players. People are used to getting free access but paying for shiny things, to change that would be a failure I think.
So the two cannot really be compared. Perhaps a better question would be to ask what people think the expansion is worth and what they are willing to pay.
That another companies sells expansions and puts a 40 $ price tag on them does not mean that a company that does not sell its expansions but provides them for free must provide content worth 40 $ in it is already an incredibly logic leap.
You assume Cryptic is following some "common rules", with the "commonality" being defined that other games do it like that.
But Cryptic actually does things differently than many other games. Story content for free is a rarity. Concepts like the Zen/Dilithium exchange do not exist in every F2P title. Cryptic has considerably customziation options for characters for free already. Having Space and Ground content integrated in the game (and in the story content even more so) is rare. They do a lot of things differently then other companies, and now you come and say that this one part, "expansions", must follow the model of all the other games. Where is the logic in that?
And you insist on usin that 40 $ price tag. Would it not be hypothetically possible for a company to sell one expansion at 40 $ and another expansion at 80 $ and yet another at 20 $, each with different amounts and type of content? Would the 20 $ not possibly qualify as expansion because it's only 20 $?
Check again. For example, do some Admirality or DOFF tasks and listen to the UI sounds. Notice how every faction but AOY has the same sounds?
When you play an AOY character, you can fly the fanciest lockbox ship and wear the weirdest off-duty costumes - you'll never miss that you're playing an AOY character.
And it's completely impossible to break with traditions, and doing so would be wrong and dishonest or bad business or something?
And? They also didn't provide us with new faction aesthetics in User Interface and mission design. New Romulus and Delta Rising still looked like the rest of the game. It's still "expansive".
An expansion is not just measured by the number of missions in it, no matter how much yo uwant that to be. And expansions do also not need to have the same size. Since Cryptic always asks the same price - 0 $ - for an expansion, they have liberal freedoms in how they handle this. (Of course, if they asked a price for their expansions and story content, they also would have the freedom to ask for different prices each time.)
Just want to make sure I understand the joke.
You got it in one.
https://xkcd.com/169/
The point of language is communication.
"No YOU have logic leaps!" Please behave like an adult.
Company A says "this is an expansion" to tell customers what's being offered. Company B says "this is an expansion" to tell customers what's being offered. Then company B says "this is an expansion" but offers something that's noticeably different from what customers come to expect. I'm asking Cryptic if they feel that AoY compares to other "expansions." And your response is "well, it doesn't have to! It's different! It can be different!" That's not even meaningful.
Yes, I assume Cryptic follows common rules of communicating clearly so that they can be understood. How would you like it if you found a great deal on potato chips at the grocery store and found that they were only a "great deal" because the bag was mostly empty?
I suggest you check again. The interface has different sounds for Fed and KDF already, and I don't have any Romulan characters but I bet their UI sounds are different as well. For your listening pleasure, here is an mp3 of the following:
I asked if Cryptic felt that the AoY expansion offers similar value to other expansions, and if they would feel justified in offering it for the usual price if STO ran on B2P. Your response seems to be along the lines of "no, I don't suppose they would, but sometimes people use words to mean different things than other people are used to, and that's just fine." That's a great excuse for hyping up what is, at best, a season patch into a full expansion with a full new faction, and hoping that people wander in with high expectations without immediately leaving.
"Expansions can be different sizes" and "prices can be whatever they want" are totally irrelevant to the question, which is whether AoY compares favorably to other expansions. How happy would you be with, say, an "expansion" for, say, $30 that consisted of nothing more than a popup window saying "thanks for playing"? What if it were free? Would you still be saying that such an expansion is comparable to others, because its cost of $0 gives it literally infinite value?
I'd like to remind you that nothing in STO is "free." The game merely follows the F2P financial model. Players are expected to pay in money at various points, generally due to an expectation of value received in return. Just because some bit of content doesn't have a price tag on it doesn't mean you're playing a free game.
Now if you wouldn't mind trolling somewhere else, I would really appreciate it.
You really think that a veteran player isn't trolling when he says that every faction has the same interface sounds except for AoY? Give me a break. "Annoying" isn't the half of it. I'm starting to wonder when the mods will show up to remove the people who are derailing this thread.
You're talking to someone whose made their living for the last 15 year writing. Preaching to the choir on that front.
One of the useful skills in wordsmithing is understanding definite versus indefinite terms. The difference between a cup of sugar and a handful. "Very" is evocative, "Double" is specific.
I'm pretty sure "expansion" is in the handful of content category.
Nice to meet you! Technical writer here, with an AA in Technical Writing and a BA in Communications.
Looks like your argument from authority didn't work out too well, did it? =\ Sorry about that. Better luck next time! But please do it in someone else's thread.
But thankfully, since we have a Technical writer with an AA in Technical Writing and a BA in Communications on hand, it should be easy for you to give us an ABSOLUTE value for the amount of material in a "handful".
And when you're done failing at that you can give us an ABSOLUTE value for the amount of content in an "expansion" and pretend that somehow games and the companies that make them aren't even more diverse that the variation amongst human hands.
Enjoy
There is no logic in comparing FTP with BTP. STO is FTP, one does not have to buy anything to be able to play any of its content. Yes, the 'good' stuff costs money and they have a LTS fee for those who want it, they have to make their money from somewhere.
But. One can play this game without spending one red cent or euro.