No specific opinion on PvP in STO, just my general opinion on the topic - I feel that PvP and PvE need to be in separate games, ones designed for & around them. So that players can get a well designed & balanced experience, rather than an at-best tacked-on minigame. And to reduce the chance of "trying to balance PvE/PvP screwed over PvP/PvE" problems.
And also because it would hopefully reduce the chat & forum antagonism between outspoken advocates of their particular preferred side (obnoxious elitist raiders can be just as bad as some pvpers. But it does tend to come from the pvp side, since that gameplay in general tends to attract over-competitive folks who think everything - even conversation - is a combat. Sure, not every pvper is like that, but the bullies/griefers/trolls/sociopaths make such a mess with their toxic attitudes that it colors the perception of the entire playerbase.
Like I said, this attitude wasn't developed by my playing STO's pvp - never touched it. But I've seen enough of it in years playing other MMOs, and in the forum threads I've read for many games. It'd be better if PvP and PvE were their own games, with neither side polluted by the other. /shrug
It's fine that you participate in this discussion, however please read the rules I have placed on the top of p. one of this discussion so this can be a relevant, friendly discussion on PvP.
Once again. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that you are a mod. If you want your own thread closed down...please continue to act like this...because we will stop being nice soon.
I know I am not a mod, however I do not want this to go out of control to the point where it actually is shut down. I would simply like the focus of this to be about PvP. It can be at a debate level (which it seems to be), but if you want to debate about something else, make another thread. (Also, because there are so many posts, I am not necessarily following this anymore. I will rely on the votes so, after you are all done debating about PvP, you can vote, I can make a good letter to Cryptic saying what the people who voted wanted about PvP, and Cryptic can make their decision. I will post what I wrote here so anyone can comment on it before I send it, and I will mention this thread. Remember, this thread can actually change the outlook of the game.)
It's fine that you participate in this discussion, however please read the rules I have placed on the top of p. one of this discussion so this can be a relevant, friendly discussion on PvP.
Once again. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that you are a mod. If you want your own thread closed down...please continue to act like this...because we will stop being nice soon.
I know I am not a mod, however I do not want this to go out of control to the point where it actually is shut down. I would simply like the focus of this to be about PvP. It can be at a debate level (which it seems to be), but if you want to debate about something else, make another thread. (Also, because there are so many posts, I am not necessarily following this anymore. I will rely on the votes so, after you are all done debating about PvP, you can vote, I can make a good letter to Cryptic saying what the people who voted wanted about PvP, and Cryptic can make their decision. I will post what I wrote here so anyone can comment on it before I send it, and I will mention this thread. Remember, this thread can actually change the outlook of the game.)
Enjoy!
You seem to have a rather high opinion of yourself. Not only do you think that you can dictate what other people post in an open forum, you think that cryptic will care about what you write in a letter? I'm sorry...but no...just no. I could arm chair psychoanaylize your posts...but that would probably get me banned for what I would say.
Has anyone else tried to change something in the game by gathering people's thoughts and opinions and then sending an email (what I meant by letter) to Cryptic?
Also, I might be speaking high of myself, but I only send what I send to Cryptic and only hope that they will consider what I said. Also, I am trying to moderate this thread I made so the moderators don't come in and shut it down if it goes out of control.
There isn't a problem with collecting results but when you attempt to dictate the results collected that is predetermination and the "data" you collect doesn't have any legitimacy.
There isn't a problem with collecting results but when you attempt to dictate the results collected that is predetermination and the "data" you collect doesn't have any legitimacy.
Thats only one of the problems here.
Stop complaining about how this thread is run! just follow the rules, stay on topic, and there shouldn't be any problems, ok?
(no one else reply about this post. Please discuss PvP.)
There isn't a problem with collecting results but when you attempt to dictate the results collected that is predetermination and the "data" you collect doesn't have any legitimacy.
Thats only one of the problems here.
Stop complaining about how this thread is run! just follow the rules, stay on topic, and there shouldn't be any problems, ok?
(no one else reply about this post. Please discuss PvP.)
Would forum replies be considered a form of PVP? Honest question.
@coldnapalm, a single 60k hit from my DBB is very rarely enough to take down a ship with the immunities everyone carries around and the stacking resists because everyone cycles buffs in Ker'rat and moves around, so the buffed BO2 has a chance of missing, or barely bringing a shield down. A single 60k hit is nothing in PvP these days. I used to be able to pop a hy3 and being a facing down just before impact but everything outruns torpedos now so for me it's a survival game. I have to try and survive long enough to wait for the other player to make a mistake or get their health and mine low enough to ram them with BFI.
Only 4/5 tac slots on my ship have spire consoles the other is the console from the phased weapon set from the episodes with the torp at the front and beam to the rear.
I won't be using zhal even if I had it. It'll lead to laziness and relying on it to survive and if ever cryptic decide to nerf it for PvP then I'll be too used to having that safety net. Not only that it effectively steals the victory the opponent without repercussion. That is unfair. Tbh a player taken out with zhal equipped should count as 3 kills in arena and be banned in Ker'rat and C&H.
Remove it. It's just a big mess and has no bearing or point. There is no zone control in the game, no draw other than to blow up another ship. The daily pvp mission is just weak and obsolete. It's not worth putting effort into to get right.
take a breath, and just pretend for a moment someone over there gives a TRIBBLE.
no, I agree, probably not...but let's pretend for a moment...
okay, territory control's out, I think we're all agreed on that based on Cryptic's own actions...
but there's maybe another way.
Resource Influence.
It would require some work to certain existing assets, but maybe less than the expenses incurred in making maps or hiring voice actors. The way it might work, is similar to the Recruits grind-actions in one part of the game community providing a valve to the resources being farmed by the rest of the community via systems like PvE queues and admiralty missions. It would, of course, have to be 'scripted' to fit the over-all metastory, but it's somewhere that PvP and player character faction can become influential and engaging, without requiring massive rework of the system.
I actually partially described one idea for this earlier up-thread here, but I think the foundation of it might be solid, particularly if it's weighted such that endgame build isn't the greater part, but instead, mid-to-fifty play, which also means a bit of pressure off of fast levelling to endgame, and maybe an extension of the current endgame's useful lifespan.
most importantly, it retains the ability of players to choose not to opt in, but still reap rewards from those who do (thus giving players that choose to participate, the feeling that they are contributing more than a few piddly rewards from a repetitious grind.)
Now, the idea isn't perfect, and it doesn't really deal with the biggest problems PvP's had to contend with since 2014, but it does provide a chance for metrics that are useful to be gathered by Cryptic to identify problems (since the lack of PvP types on staff means they currently don't have those metrics, nor the ability to identify by experience.)
Basically, I'm suggesting a reward structure in the form of periodic 'events' laid in that use existing assets such as the Arena, C&H and Kerrat/Otha/N'vak maps, existing (or old-code) PUG queues, and a hard link that doesn't include private matches to keep things 'churning' and accessible to players that aren't on PvP channels, don't belong to dedicated PvP fleets, and can't find a fair match in the social zones because those places don't have people looking.
conception: four themed "PvP events" spaced between the major seasonal events (winter, summer, Mirror and Crystalline), weighted for most benefit from the lowest-tiered PvP queues, with results tallied and changes to rewards to EVERYONE made at the Thursday patch for the four weeks I propose each event should take.
sub-faction results then impacting related Admiralty rewards, dilithium rewards, or reputation marks awards for PvE, with bonuses, while participants, since they are not doing Reps while they're doing this, would pull down spec point bonuses for themselves and recieve special "PvP only" rewards of a cosmetic nature (things like special costume items, or 'weird stuff' items not available through normal grinding or the store.)
those are your 'attractors' for participation. Setting the 'material' rewards by level-groups, with "infinity" mark or something similar, advertises the activity to non-participants, the 'abstract' rewards (bonuses to resources) in turn serves to promote awareness, and lets non-PvP people benefit from PvP players, sort of healing a rift that's been here since 2010 or so.
Finally, tallying results gives the developers some kind of 'handle' on what works, and what does not, since they do not have experience in the activity to guide them.
Hell, it might even attract a few to give it a shot-assuming enough people come in as genuine casuals the way they used to.
PvP will remain an embarrassment on life support so long as it remains the playground of the compulsive grinders who won't play until they've maxed out everything that can be in PvE.
It doesn't have to be that way, except that as long as things persist as they are-with joke rewards, no impact, no influence and a trend to supporting the most antisocial PvE Grinders, it will.
The arena style PvP fighting between two set teams X vs. X ships, even on both sides must be thrown out. It will not work. Trying to get arena to work in this game is a massive waste of time and dev effort.
Open world pvp has some promise, even if it's not zone control, as it's more about fleet composition and less about overall game balance. How many people are online for the fight, can we mobilize more than the opposing force quicker, when can they arrive, with what ships are more important factors. When you force two teams, equal ship count, then game balance has to be almost perfect, also it just feels fake as hell. You know how many people are on the other side and everyone is in the same very small box.
Arena style will not work, but if you want to try to argue the point that it will, go for it. Right now it's looking like PvP will always suck in STO, with no end to this badness in sight.
Something someone else enjoys (but not me): Keep it or Remove it?
As long as these conditions are applied, there will be four possibilites in people:
1) People who want to remove it because they dont like it 2) People who want to keep it because they like it 3) People who dont care 4) People who would like to add input on how The item in question may be improved but between all of the shouting and the fact that most of these types of content falls on dead ears at Cryptic, knows its really a waste of time to post.
@jodarkrider@pwlaughingtrendy , can we agree that this thread, much like many where one group is asking to take away content another likes in going knowhere but to a flaming pyre?
There isn't a problem with collecting results but when you attempt to dictate the results collected that is predetermination and the "data" you collect doesn't have any legitimacy.
Thats only one of the problems here.
Stop complaining about how this thread is run! just follow the rules, stay on topic, and there shouldn't be any problems, ok?
(no one else reply about this post. Please discuss PvP.)
You are not a mod, you do not get to decide what I say or respond to, ever.
No duh. All I would like is for this thread to not get out of control, and you are not helping it!!!!!!!!!
Now on the topic of PvP, I have something to add. When I went on PvP before, there were always mega-OP players against a team that seemed to be noobs. If PvP gets re-done, I think players with similar damage and defence points (like amount of damage your weapons and skills do and amount of shields and health you have) should be qued up with similar players for a more fair match. Also, about the PvP you can get to by entering some systems in Klingon/Federation neutral territory, I think those should be moved to reputation places like the Dyson sphere or Kobali as a separate, extra PvP map.
Also, did you know you can get free stuff by doing PvP by clicking "available missions" in the mission window and looking for missions containing PvP?
[quote="risingwolfshadow;12941368"] Tbh a player taken out with zhal equipped should count as 3 kills in arena and be banned in Ker'rat and C&H.[/quote]
Honestly; I don't care about PvP in this particular game. If I wanted to compete or fight another players, I'd have million better games to do that in, rather than Star Trek game, which is imho not best-made for it.
BUT.
Everyone likes something, and just because I don't like it, it doesn't mean others can't like it and that it should be removed.
I feel that what would help PvP, would be separating the abilities & numbers from PvE, so there would not be this 'but PvP sucks, because it's imba' as well as giving them an actual PvP zone - But not that they can gank PvE guys on a whim, simply something to aim for & have a place to do their thing though, would be neat, rather than just some sloppy 'arena like' maps, which seem to be unappealing entirely. That being said, I sympathize with PvP players, as it is saddening when nothing gets released for them in what? Last 3 years?
With a moderator hat back on - These forums are free-space to discuss; even if you don't like the idea or don't care, it's better to stay away than take turns at the posters in questions, trying to "silence" them. Keep it nice & civil, thank you!
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
Problem 1: Plain and simple, Not Enough Players. And of that population its 90% fed.. I'm guilty of it myself. So Ker'rat is a zzz-Snorefest-zzz waiting for kdf to show up. Then when one of them finally pops in, they get ganked by like 5 or more Feds. Or, more rarely the other extreme can happen, where a Premade-TeamSpeak KDF crew shows up in force, and starts single target destroying people, with the precion of a surgeon, and the cheesyness of a dairy farmer. Soif a new player goes to Ker'rat their experience will be, either, A: Bored out of their skull or, B: Outgunned and getting beat like an old rug.
Sounds like a great way to spend my evening ! Said No One Ever.
Problem 2: The PvP queue. It' dead Jim. On a weeknight, it can take the whole evening trying to get an Arena to pop (don't even try CapnHold). Weekends are a bit better, but even then the population is low.
Problem 3: The Match Making. If a new player wants to try Arena mode (despite Problems 1 and 2) they'll have 2 choices, Arena (solo) and Arena.
Arena (solo/duo), limits the amount of teamates you can bring with you in a match. You either queue up solo, or with one friend.
But, you can forget about this mode, hasn't popped in years. And it won't anytime soon. This leaves the casual/solo pvp'er one choice;
Arena. And here you will face premade groups, which are communicating via teamspeak or keybinds. So what happens most of the time is that you'll get a premade team on one side vesus a bunch of "Randoms" on the other. Can you guess how that match goes ? 15-0, 15-1, 15-2
I see a lot of rage quits on the "Randoms" side. Im sure many of those casual/solo players never returned to pvp after experiencing that.
Now, this wouldnt be an issue if Arena (solo/duo) actually popped. But it never does, and never will.
That all said, CapNhold can be fun, but even when it pops (on the weekend, sometimes?maybe?if you're lucky) you still come up against the premades. And nobody really plays the capture points seriously, ill look around and everyone is clustered together at the top of the map, Pewpewpew'ing away. And I'm all like "Why do I even bother"
The problems I list are self fullfilling. Problem 1 leads to problem 2 which leads to problem 3, then it circles back onto itself, and concentrates/magnifies as more and more players give up and step away from pvp.
Power creep must also be considered, and fought at every occasion. It intensifies problem 1,2&3 and is the root cause of the decimated pvp population. (And probably the pve population) As the power gap between casual and elite grows, you get fewer new/casual players looking to pvp. They have less and less of a chance at a "fair/balanced" fight as that gap continues to grow.
And these are pretty serious issues right now. So I'm not very hopeful for the future of pvp.
But even still, there's no reason to get rid of it, it is completely avoidable for those who don't wish to partake.
@coldnapalm 60K spike hit is nothing in PvP (especially seeing as I can only do it every 2 minutes), I can tank it on my t5u defiant confidently. However I can't tank twice that which is often what is returned to me. It's that kind of broken equipment combined with an ability that is supposed to take chunks of a ship that make it overpowered. FBP is meant to take take chunks away, not insta-kill. To bring down a ship, I have to hit a player with that bo2 hit to bring a shield facing down so that hy3 can squeeze through. Do you even know how difficult that is now?? It was tricky before DR now it's miraculous if you can pull it off. That's why everyone sticks to broken gear that overpowers the opponent instead of skilfully taking them down with torps and energy weapons. It's why JemBug players in season 8 just used DHCs to rip ships up. Because Gecko has made it easy for them. Sci ships have always been the most powerful ships in PvP and you don't seem to get that, you also don't seem to understand that I think that's a good thing.
Before DR I'd always poke and prod a sci ship with a few shots to see what voodoo he had up his sleeve because of how dangerous they were and I'd often spend 5 mins of countering control effects and so on and then give up.
Now I'm being taken out with TBR, while getting a whole load of sci spam. And yes you can use polarise hull to negate it, but then how do I counter SNB if I've got PH and HE? How do I assist players if I can't lend them a shield or control counter if I'm using PH? Sure I can join the fight and draw fire but I'm in an escort not a cruiser.
The point is, the only way to be competitive now is with broken abilities and gear, with traits that haven't been thought properly and specialisations that grant immunity to all damage. This is not skilful. It's lazy, pathetic and immensely boring.
I tried pvp when I first started you know with one of the freebie cruisers and mismatched gear. Got my TRIBBLE kicked and never tried it again. I don't mind it being there for those who are into it. I can't say much about improving it since I played only a little bit but every improvement is a welcome one.
I think Pat, and Rising are making some fair points, but to address Pat's question to me...
What do I think could help alleviate the problems we face in PVP ?
Well, I can see you put a lot of thought into the Faction aspect of it, and I think you're on to something in that regard.
Many of your suggestions could help make things more meaningful and interesting I think.
I would add to your suggestions, a real time PvP leaderboard (reflecting the past day or weeks battles), along with a PvP Reputation, could potentially go a long way in creating new interest, and bring in some new players
Though this all depends on how far the Devs are willing to go on this project.
But again, with new players, the problem is that they have a lot of grinding to do, just to be able to compete at a level of mediocrity.
Like has been mentioned. Reps/Specs/Doffs/Traits etc all have to be grinded out before even entering the world of PvP (if someone wants to stand a chance).
Its a lot of hours of grinding for someone who just wants a casual pvp experience.
So even if the faction pride, Leaderboard and PvP Rep were implemented, we are still in danger of losing those newly interested players because the gear/equipment gap is so huge at this point.
The simplest solutions I have thought of or endorse, are as follows;
- Removal of Premade Arena Queue: This one is tricky, and may end up upsetting the old school guys who've been around through thick and thin. It may even be the final nail in the coffin. Causing the core PvP community to abandon it altogether.
So it's just a thought. But I'm skeptical it would make a difference. It may end up hurting things even more.
Plus in general, it's not a good thing to discourage teaming in pvp. Communicating/coordinating with friends during a battle is part of the draw of pvp. It's part of the fun, making new friends, and feeling like a vital part of a team.
- No Traits/Spec Mode; Simple enough, a queue where all Traits/Specs are disabled. This mode would eliminate all that grinding a casual needs to do before even stepping into pvp. It would also ensure power creep is not as big of a factor.
New casuals could join this queue to get a taste of pvp without having to fear p2w items, or getting their hat handed to them constantly.
This may also bring back some of the old pvp guys who left after LoR, and DR. Those that left because power creep was getting out of control.
- Stock Starship Mode: Again simple enough, 4 ship classes for each faction, Escort/Crusier/Carrier/Sci Vessel.
Each with their own load outs which do not vary greatly from faction to faction (barring Warp Cores and Singularity cores).
Weapons all at MK XII Standard white quality.
Skills/ability/Doffs pre-arranged, based on the function of the ship chosen.
They could even use skill planners provided by the pvp community, to ensure each ship class could be effective, and wouldn't be ignored (if one ends up clearly better then the others)
The ship classes should all be relatively capable of the same damage and defensive outputs (within reason).
It would be best imo if Traits and Specs are turned off in this mode as well. It would help keep things as simple as possible for newer players.
I think these modes would be a good start, especially, if our goal is to attract new players (and not scare them away).
Other then this, I can't really see anything else helping if the power creep keeps getting pushed as is the case now.
It just keeps stacking the deck against people who can't play all the time, or people that have no interest in grinding for months, just to play a few decent rounds of PvP.
Like we've all said, the current PvP situation, just scares new people away.
And nothing will ever get better for PvP if this keeps happening.
It's sad because you're right 3 years ago, PvP/Ker'rat was a bustling place. And PvP Bootcamp was a real thing.
And it was my favorite part of the game.
Even myself, I just got back into PvP since the skills revamp.
I had given up on PvP shortly after the Ionic fiasco, and I'm only coming back now, about a year later.
And I LOVED PVP. Imagine those who are casual, who just want to try it out... they're probably disgusted by the current experience. I don't blame them tbh.
Comments
And also because it would hopefully reduce the chat & forum antagonism between outspoken advocates of their particular preferred side (obnoxious elitist raiders can be just as bad as some pvpers. But it does tend to come from the pvp side, since that gameplay in general tends to attract over-competitive folks who think everything - even conversation - is a combat. Sure, not every pvper is like that, but the bullies/griefers/trolls/sociopaths make such a mess with their toxic attitudes that it colors the perception of the entire playerbase.
Like I said, this attitude wasn't developed by my playing STO's pvp - never touched it. But I've seen enough of it in years playing other MMOs, and in the forum threads I've read for many games. It'd be better if PvP and PvE were their own games, with neither side polluted by the other. /shrug
I know I am not a mod, however I do not want this to go out of control to the point where it actually is shut down. I would simply like the focus of this to be about PvP. It can be at a debate level (which it seems to be), but if you want to debate about something else, make another thread. (Also, because there are so many posts, I am not necessarily following this anymore. I will rely on the votes so, after you are all done debating about PvP, you can vote, I can make a good letter to Cryptic saying what the people who voted wanted about PvP, and Cryptic can make their decision. I will post what I wrote here so anyone can comment on it before I send it, and I will mention this thread. Remember, this thread can actually change the outlook of the game.)
Enjoy!
-Q
(hint: click the image to go to my youtube channel)
http://twitch.tv/profile/quantum_quantonium
http://plus.google.com/+quantumquantonium
http://quantumquantonium.blogspot.com
http://quantonium.tk
EPIC SCREENSHOTS
Has anyone else tried to change something in the game by gathering people's thoughts and opinions and then sending an email (what I meant by letter) to Cryptic?
Also, I might be speaking high of myself, but I only send what I send to Cryptic and only hope that they will consider what I said. Also, I am trying to moderate this thread I made so the moderators don't come in and shut it down if it goes out of control.
Just stay on topic, please
-Q
(hint: click the image to go to my youtube channel)
http://twitch.tv/profile/quantum_quantonium
http://plus.google.com/+quantumquantonium
http://quantumquantonium.blogspot.com
http://quantonium.tk
EPIC SCREENSHOTS
Stop complaining about how this thread is run! just follow the rules, stay on topic, and there shouldn't be any problems, ok?
(no one else reply about this post. Please discuss PvP.)
-Q
(hint: click the image to go to my youtube channel)
http://twitch.tv/profile/quantum_quantonium
http://plus.google.com/+quantumquantonium
http://quantumquantonium.blogspot.com
http://quantonium.tk
EPIC SCREENSHOTS
Would forum replies be considered a form of PVP? Honest question.
Only 4/5 tac slots on my ship have spire consoles the other is the console from the phased weapon set from the episodes with the torp at the front and beam to the rear.
I won't be using zhal even if I had it. It'll lead to laziness and relying on it to survive and if ever cryptic decide to nerf it for PvP then I'll be too used to having that safety net.
Not only that it effectively steals the victory the opponent without repercussion. That is unfair.
Tbh a player taken out with zhal equipped should count as 3 kills in arena and be banned in Ker'rat and C&H.
The arena style PvP fighting between two set teams X vs. X ships, even on both sides must be thrown out. It will not work. Trying to get arena to work in this game is a massive waste of time and dev effort.
Open world pvp has some promise, even if it's not zone control, as it's more about fleet composition and less about overall game balance. How many people are online for the fight, can we mobilize more than the opposing force quicker, when can they arrive, with what ships are more important factors. When you force two teams, equal ship count, then game balance has to be almost perfect, also it just feels fake as hell. You know how many people are on the other side and everyone is in the same very small box.
Arena style will not work, but if you want to try to argue the point that it will, go for it. Right now it's looking like PvP will always suck in STO, with no end to this badness in sight.
Something someone else enjoys (but not me): Keep it or Remove it?
As long as these conditions are applied, there will be four possibilites in people:
1) People who want to remove it because they dont like it
2) People who want to keep it because they like it
3) People who dont care
4) People who would like to add input on how The item in question may be improved but between all of the shouting and the fact that most of these types of content falls on dead ears at Cryptic, knows its really a waste of time to post.
@jodarkrider @pwlaughingtrendy , can we agree that this thread, much like many where one group is asking to take away content another likes in going knowhere but to a flaming pyre?
No duh. All I would like is for this thread to not get out of control, and you are not helping it!!!!!!!!!
Now on the topic of PvP, I have something to add. When I went on PvP before, there were always mega-OP players against a team that seemed to be noobs. If PvP gets re-done, I think players with similar damage and defence points (like amount of damage your weapons and skills do and amount of shields and health you have) should be qued up with similar players for a more fair match. Also, about the PvP you can get to by entering some systems in Klingon/Federation neutral territory, I think those should be moved to reputation places like the Dyson sphere or Kobali as a separate, extra PvP map.
Also, did you know you can get free stuff by doing PvP by clicking "available missions" in the mission window and looking for missions containing PvP?
-Q
(hint: click the image to go to my youtube channel)
http://twitch.tv/profile/quantum_quantonium
http://plus.google.com/+quantumquantonium
http://quantumquantonium.blogspot.com
http://quantonium.tk
EPIC SCREENSHOTS
Tbh a player taken out with zhal equipped should count as 3 kills in arena and be banned in Ker'rat and C&H.[/quote]
I like the cut of your jib, good sir
BUT.
Everyone likes something, and just because I don't like it, it doesn't mean others can't like it and that it should be removed.
I feel that what would help PvP, would be separating the abilities & numbers from PvE, so there would not be this 'but PvP sucks, because it's imba' as well as giving them an actual PvP zone - But not that they can gank PvE guys on a whim, simply something to aim for & have a place to do their thing though, would be neat, rather than just some sloppy 'arena like' maps, which seem to be unappealing entirely. That being said, I sympathize with PvP players, as it is saddening when nothing gets released for them in what? Last 3 years?
With a moderator hat back on - These forums are free-space to discuss; even if you don't like the idea or don't care, it's better to stay away than take turns at the posters in questions, trying to "silence" them. Keep it nice & civil, thank you!
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
"bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
"Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9]
"Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy
Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider
And of that population its 90% fed.. I'm guilty of it myself.
So Ker'rat is a zzz-Snorefest-zzz waiting for kdf to show up.
Then when one of them finally pops in, they get ganked by like 5 or more Feds.
Or, more rarely the other extreme can happen, where a Premade-TeamSpeak KDF crew shows up in force, and starts single target destroying people, with the precion of a surgeon, and the cheesyness of a dairy farmer.
Soif a new player goes to Ker'rat their experience will be, either, A: Bored out of their skull
or, B: Outgunned and getting beat like an old rug.
Sounds like a great way to spend my evening ! Said No One Ever.
Problem 2: The PvP queue.
It' dead Jim.
On a weeknight, it can take the whole evening trying to get an Arena to pop (don't even try CapnHold).
Weekends are a bit better, but even then the population is low.
Problem 3: The Match Making.
If a new player wants to try Arena mode (despite Problems 1 and 2) they'll have 2 choices, Arena (solo) and Arena.
Arena (solo/duo), limits the amount of teamates you can bring with you in a match. You either queue up solo, or with one friend.
But, you can forget about this mode, hasn't popped in years. And it won't anytime soon. This leaves the casual/solo pvp'er one choice;
Arena. And here you will face premade groups, which are communicating via teamspeak or keybinds.
So what happens most of the time is that you'll get a premade team on one side vesus a bunch of "Randoms" on the other.
Can you guess how that match goes ?
15-0, 15-1, 15-2
I see a lot of rage quits on the "Randoms" side.
Im sure many of those casual/solo players never returned to pvp after experiencing that.
Now, this wouldnt be an issue if Arena (solo/duo) actually popped. But it never does, and never will.
That all said, CapNhold can be fun, but even when it pops (on the weekend, sometimes?maybe?if you're lucky) you still come up against the premades. And nobody really plays the capture points seriously, ill look around and everyone is clustered together at the top of the map, Pewpewpew'ing away.
And I'm all like "Why do I even bother"
The problems I list are self fullfilling.
Problem 1 leads to problem 2 which leads to problem 3, then it circles back onto itself, and concentrates/magnifies as more and more players give up and step away from pvp.
Power creep must also be considered, and fought at every occasion.
It intensifies problem 1,2&3 and is the root cause of the decimated pvp population. (And probably the pve population)
As the power gap between casual and elite grows, you get fewer new/casual players looking to pvp.
They have less and less of a chance at a "fair/balanced" fight as that gap continues to grow.
And these are pretty serious issues right now.
So I'm not very hopeful for the future of pvp.
But even still, there's no reason to get rid of it, it is completely avoidable for those who don't wish to partake.
It's that kind of broken equipment combined with an ability that is supposed to take chunks of a ship that make it overpowered. FBP is meant to take take chunks away, not insta-kill.
To bring down a ship, I have to hit a player with that bo2 hit to bring a shield facing down so that hy3 can squeeze through. Do you even know how difficult that is now?? It was tricky before DR now it's miraculous if you can pull it off. That's why everyone sticks to broken gear that overpowers the opponent instead of skilfully taking them down with torps and energy weapons.
It's why JemBug players in season 8 just used DHCs to rip ships up. Because Gecko has made it easy for them.
Sci ships have always been the most powerful ships in PvP and you don't seem to get that, you also don't seem to understand that I think that's a good thing.
Before DR I'd always poke and prod a sci ship with a few shots to see what voodoo he had up his sleeve because of how dangerous they were and I'd often spend 5 mins of countering control effects and so on and then give up.
Now I'm being taken out with TBR, while getting a whole load of sci spam. And yes you can use polarise hull to negate it, but then how do I counter SNB if I've got PH and HE? How do I assist players if I can't lend them a shield or control counter if I'm using PH? Sure I can join the fight and draw fire but I'm in an escort not a cruiser.
The point is, the only way to be competitive now is with broken abilities and gear, with traits that haven't been thought properly and specialisations that grant immunity to all damage.
This is not skilful. It's lazy, pathetic and immensely boring.
What do I think could help alleviate the problems we face in PVP ?
Well, I can see you put a lot of thought into the Faction aspect of it, and I think you're on to something in that regard.
Many of your suggestions could help make things more meaningful and interesting I think.
I would add to your suggestions, a real time PvP leaderboard (reflecting the past day or weeks battles), along with a PvP Reputation, could potentially go a long way in creating new interest, and bring in some new players
Though this all depends on how far the Devs are willing to go on this project.
But again, with new players, the problem is that they have a lot of grinding to do, just to be able to compete at a level of mediocrity.
Like has been mentioned. Reps/Specs/Doffs/Traits etc all have to be grinded out before even entering the world of PvP (if someone wants to stand a chance).
Its a lot of hours of grinding for someone who just wants a casual pvp experience.
So even if the faction pride, Leaderboard and PvP Rep were implemented, we are still in danger of losing those newly interested players because the gear/equipment gap is so huge at this point.
The simplest solutions I have thought of or endorse, are as follows;
- Removal of Premade Arena Queue: This one is tricky, and may end up upsetting the old school guys who've been around through thick and thin. It may even be the final nail in the coffin. Causing the core PvP community to abandon it altogether.
So it's just a thought. But I'm skeptical it would make a difference. It may end up hurting things even more.
Plus in general, it's not a good thing to discourage teaming in pvp. Communicating/coordinating with friends during a battle is part of the draw of pvp. It's part of the fun, making new friends, and feeling like a vital part of a team.
- No Traits/Spec Mode; Simple enough, a queue where all Traits/Specs are disabled. This mode would eliminate all that grinding a casual needs to do before even stepping into pvp. It would also ensure power creep is not as big of a factor.
New casuals could join this queue to get a taste of pvp without having to fear p2w items, or getting their hat handed to them constantly.
This may also bring back some of the old pvp guys who left after LoR, and DR. Those that left because power creep was getting out of control.
- Stock Starship Mode: Again simple enough, 4 ship classes for each faction, Escort/Crusier/Carrier/Sci Vessel.
Each with their own load outs which do not vary greatly from faction to faction (barring Warp Cores and Singularity cores).
Weapons all at MK XII Standard white quality.
Skills/ability/Doffs pre-arranged, based on the function of the ship chosen.
They could even use skill planners provided by the pvp community, to ensure each ship class could be effective, and wouldn't be ignored (if one ends up clearly better then the others)
The ship classes should all be relatively capable of the same damage and defensive outputs (within reason).
It would be best imo if Traits and Specs are turned off in this mode as well. It would help keep things as simple as possible for newer players.
I think these modes would be a good start, especially, if our goal is to attract new players (and not scare them away).
Other then this, I can't really see anything else helping if the power creep keeps getting pushed as is the case now.
It just keeps stacking the deck against people who can't play all the time, or people that have no interest in grinding for months, just to play a few decent rounds of PvP.
Like we've all said, the current PvP situation, just scares new people away.
And nothing will ever get better for PvP if this keeps happening.
It's sad because you're right 3 years ago, PvP/Ker'rat was a bustling place. And PvP Bootcamp was a real thing.
And it was my favorite part of the game.
Even myself, I just got back into PvP since the skills revamp.
I had given up on PvP shortly after the Ionic fiasco, and I'm only coming back now, about a year later.
And I LOVED PVP. Imagine those who are casual, who just want to try it out... they're probably disgusted by the current experience. I don't blame them tbh.