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V'ger - The Origin of the Borg? "Resistance would be futile" - Spock

solitair#4236 solitair Member Posts: 33 Arc User
After watching ST:TMP for the first time in 25-or-so years, there was an interesting familiarity to the behavior of V'ger as it approached Earth... Kirk, Spock and Decker discovered that the Voyager probe had contacted a world of machines in a distant corner of the galaxy (the Delta Quadrant?) which upgraded it to accomplish its mission of gathering all knowledge and return that knowledge to its creator.

That takes us to ST: First Contact. After Picard foiled the Borg attempt to assimilate Earth on "First Contact Day", they transmitted a set of message to the Borg (the "upgraded" V'ger) of the past. A century and a half later, V'ger comes trundling in like a juggernaut, assimilating everything in its path - not destroying, but converting it into energy as information. V'ger creates the first Locutus from Lt. Ilea and learns that machines function best in union with carbon-based units. And with all the proper FOF codes directly inputted, V'ger bonded with Decker and quantum-transported back to the Delta Quad.

Thus, with renewed purpose - a far more pragmatic purpose than general information collection and storage - V'ger instructed its mechanical patrons on the new assimilation protocols because carbon-based units are more effective in union with machines, just as machines are better in union with carbon units. And this is how the Borg came to be.

Or is it? Feel free to support and debate the theory.

Comments

  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,110 Community Moderator
    There are many theories involving Voyager 6 and the machine planet. And the Borg in First Contact actually didn't get a message out. Picard and Worf managed to destroy the transmitter in time. However, in the Enterprise episode Regeneration, the surviving Borg from First Contact were able to transmit a signal to the Delta Quadrant, with an estimated arrival in... the 24th Century.

    V'Ger, however, was theorized to have encountered the Borg. In Star Trek Legacy it was used as a plot point for the origins of the Borg, as discovered by Turell. I believe that in one of the comics covering the Alternate Universe, the Narada actually sought out V'Ger to help calculate when Spock would enter the timeline because the Narada herself was augmented with Borg tech.

    Also... in the novel The Return, the Borg do not assimilate Spock because they already sensed the presence of the Collective within him. Spock later reveals that in his mindmeld with V'Ger, he actually touched the Collective and may very well have seen the Borg Homeworld.
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  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    voyager 6 was a probe sent out to collect information in space and it was sucked into a blackhole and deposited damaged in another place, a great machine society built a ship for the voyager probe with its simple purpose to report back home to upload information that it had collected, along the way it simply fired energy projections at objects which in effect transported the objects whole into energy and stored into the mind of the machine on everything it has collected.

    voyager could not respond because it either purposely sabotaged itself so it could not transmit or was unaware of this failure when it reached earth to get a response from its creator, the old nasa program. in any event the purpose of voyager was complete when the machine intelligence itself using ilea's body with modifications and decker came together into a bio-synthetic type of lifeform in a new stage of evolution.

    the borg had nothing to do with it and frankly some of your "assimilation" ideas are quite a stretch.
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  • solitair#4236 solitair Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    Of course it was Regeneration, not First Contact. I haven't seen FC in a while, so I guess I'll queue it up on Netflix.
    voyager 6 was a probe sent out to collect information in space and it was sucked into a blackhole and deposited damaged in another place, a great machine society built a ship for the voyager probe with its simple purpose to report back home to upload information that it had collected, along the way it simply fired energy projections at objects which in effect transported the objects whole into energy and stored into the mind of the machine on everything it has collected.

    voyager could not respond because it either purposely sabotaged itself so it could not transmit or was unaware of this failure when it reached earth to get a response from its creator, the old nasa program. in any event the purpose of voyager was complete when the machine intelligence itself using ilea's body with modifications and decker came together into a bio-synthetic type of lifeform in a new stage of evolution.

    the borg had nothing to do with it and frankly some of your "assimilation" ideas are quite a stretch.

    It's called speculation. It's like a game that stretches the mind. :wink:
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,906 Arc User
    yeah, um, just so you know...the borg have been around for at least 900 years prior to the 2370s as per Dragon's Teeth - that was LONG before humanity even realized earth wasn't at the center of the universe, never mind when voyager 6 was launched​​
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,110 Community Moderator
    yeah, um, just so you know...the borg have been around for at least 900 years prior to the 2370s as per Dragon's Teeth - that was LONG before humanity even realized earth wasn't at the center of the universe, never mind when voyager 6 was launched​​

    One of the theories involve Voyager 6 having fallen through a Black Hole or something that caused it to travel back into the past.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,906 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    yeah, um, just so you know...the borg have been around for at least 900 years prior to the 2370s as per Dragon's Teeth - that was LONG before humanity even realized earth wasn't at the center of the universe, never mind when voyager 6 was launched

    One of the theories involve Voyager 6 having fallen through a Black Hole or something that caused it to travel back into the past.

    and? they were already assimilating even back that far, so that torpedoes his theory about contact between v'ger after unioning with decker triggering their quest for 'perfection' by assimilating everything in sight​​
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    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • solitair#4236 solitair Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    Call me a heretic. It's a title that I wear proudly IRL.

    Here's another one to twist your canonical panties in a knot. The Borg Queen's organic components bear a striking residual personality signature to a Deltan. Never mind the baldness - that's characteristic of all Borg. I mean the overtly seductive personality. That might suggest that the Borg Queen is what remains of Lt. Ilea because she was the first Locutus - the first bond of organic and machine, by Borg reckoning.
    :wickedlaugh:

    I'm not saying that the Borg weren't around 900 years ago. "I saw V'ger's planet - a planet of living machines," according to Spock's "Tryptomine Dream" (Nod to Astral Projection's trance mix). I'm saying that before the events of ST:TMP they may have been more like Cmdr Data, or the warring robotic factions from Voyager: Prototype, as sentient inorganic machines than the semi-organic Borg that we're familiar with.

  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    Here's another one to twist your canonical panties in a knot.

    careful with your trolling there.
    The Borg Queen's organic components bear a striking residual personality signature to a Deltan. Never mind the baldness - that's characteristic of all Borg. I mean the overtly seductive personality. That might suggest that the Borg Queen is what remains of Lt. Ilea because she was the first Locutus - the first bond of organic and machine, by Borg reckoning.
    :wickedlaugh:

    you and i are different like ilea and the queen is different in personality. where is your reasoning for how the two of them are the same?
    I'm not saying that the Borg weren't around 900 years ago. "I saw V'ger's planet - a planet of living machines," according to Spock's "Tryptomine Dream" (Nod to Astral Projection's trance mix). I'm saying that before the events of ST:TMP they may have been more like Cmdr Data, or the warring robotic factions from Voyager: Prototype, as sentient inorganic machines than the semi-organic Borg that we're familiar with.

    The Cravic and Pralor were built by organic beings and began waging a destructive war on each other for much longer than you realize, hardly the unison one expects off a planet of machines, besides which it is stated that their numbers are dwindling as they are unable to reproduce, besides what would be in it for them when they are blinded by each other, how can they act in a generous mood when they are programmed to exterminate each other? it would be an unnecessary drain on resources to even consider such a large ship for a simple probe that doesnt benefit them in any way.

    finally APU 3947 stated that it has been in existence for 150 years by 2372, so that puts its activation at 2222. there is no reference point to when the builders were exterminated by the APU but they had to be in existence at least 150 years ago to built this APU. remember this is a machine world you are looking for and a resultant war would not of produced that.
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  • equinox976equinox976 Member Posts: 2,197 Arc User
    Did chaos just admit to wearing panties?


  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    Call me a heretic. It's a title that I wear proudly IRL.

    Here's another one to twist your canonical panties in a knot. The Borg Queen's organic components bear a striking residual personality signature to a Deltan. Never mind the baldness - that's characteristic of all Borg. I mean the overtly seductive personality. That might suggest that the Borg Queen is what remains of Lt. Ilea because she was the first Locutus - the first bond of organic and machine, by Borg reckoning.
    :wickedlaugh:

    I'm not saying that the Borg weren't around 900 years ago. "I saw V'ger's planet - a planet of living machines," according to Spock's "Tryptomine Dream" (Nod to Astral Projection's trance mix). I'm saying that before the events of ST:TMP they may have been more like Cmdr Data, or the warring robotic factions from Voyager: Prototype, as sentient inorganic machines than the semi-organic Borg that we're familiar with.

    Biggest flaw with the theory, is that Ilea was not seductive. At all. Others may have been attracted to her, but she was positively chaste and demure... ;)
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,444 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    Any similiarities you might think to see are coincidental. Neither behind the scenes nor through on-screen resemblance can any relation between VGer and the Borg reasonably be assumed.

    And please don't quote Roddenberry about how VGer and the Borg might share their home world. Roddenberry had no influence in creating the Borg nor showed he much interest in the first place.
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,906 Arc User
    yeah, deltans are not orions...they may have similar effects on other species, but unlike the orions, they don't milk it​​
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    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
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    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
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    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,896 Arc User
    I don't like most origin theories for the Borg or attempts to link V'Ger and the Borg. Not everything has to with us.


    I think the most plausible scenario for the Borg they were depicted is that they started as any other humanoid, biological species, developed cybernetics, and found the ability to connect via cybernetical implants desirable enough that they made it permanent. Maybe there was some force involved (hard to believe every single member of a species would feel the same on such an issue). From there, they go out and explore the world. And once you united all people from your species under you in a single mind, trying to achieve perfection and bringing others this perfection seems like a plausible goal.
    That it could turn out so badly is the greatest tragedy of it.


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  • jtoon74jtoon74 Member Posts: 409 Arc User
    I read some where that this wasn't even in consideration by the powers that be that created The Borg, personallyI think the V'ger thing was a good idea.

    You also have to remember it was Q who brought the Federation to the attention of The Borg, if they had been aware of the Earth they'd have arrived in the quadrant much earlier than they did.
  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    jtoon74 wrote: »
    I read some where that this wasn't even in consideration by the powers that be that created The Borg, personallyI think the V'ger thing was a good idea.

    You also have to remember it was Q who brought the Federation to the attention of The Borg, if they had been aware of the Earth they'd have arrived in the quadrant much earlier than they did.
    Actually, it was the other way round... It was revealed at the end of that episode, that the Borg were already aiming for Earth... They were already on their way (and that reason was explained/retconned in Regeneration) what Q did, was to give the Federation a heads up... ;)

  • nikeixnikeix Member Posts: 3,972 Arc User
    Do people just not read Star Trek novels anymore?
  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    nikeix wrote: »
    Do people just not read Star Trek novels anymore?
    Probably not in twenty years... B) If I want to read cliched c**p, I write it myself ;)
  • nikeixnikeix Member Posts: 3,972 Arc User
    If by clichéd TRIBBLE you mean you missed the entire Titan series, I'm kinda sorry for you.
  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    nikeix wrote: »
    If by clichéd TRIBBLE you mean you missed the entire Titan series, I'm kinda sorry for you.
    Yeah, that never really appealed, but given that you were able to guess what I was talking about without naming names... ;)
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Little tidbit of info. The original form of the Borg in TNG was in fact the "neural parasites" from Conpiracy.

    the key to the borg are the nanoprobes and not neural parasites, besides there was never any link to prove these two are connected. i suspect the borg came into existence when a lab disaster on some world in the DQ happened when the scientists created nanoprobes that were meant to be their salvation only to add the line of coding that allowed technology and biology to be converted and assimilated and then the nanoprobes themselves asserted a directive that creates devices from the process of conversion by the nanoprobes and then these devices create a subspace link that connect all lifeforms to each other.

    the disaster is as the usual sci-fi cliche goes: a lack of moral and ethical observation leading to willing test subjects being injected and from there it just grew out of control into a full blown epidemic and before long the entire planet became borg, ships on the ground were converted and refitted for the purpose of the new hive, from there more and more local space was taken over and assimilated, eventually ships formed together and created a unicomplex where more and more drones and resources would be gathered to create new cubes, spheres and interceptors.
    nikeix wrote: »
    Do people just not read Star Trek novels anymore?

    novels are non canon, why waste your time on something that does not mean anything?
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,896 Arc User
    novels are non canon, why waste your time on something that does not mean anything?
    Well, Star Trek isn't real, so why waste your time on something that does not mean anything?

    Wait, I know a reason... Because it's entertaining.

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  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Little tidbit of info. The original form of the Borg in TNG was in fact the "neural parasites" from Conpiracy.

    the key to the borg are the nanoprobes and not neural parasites, besides there was never any link to prove these two are connected. i suspect the borg came into existence when a lab disaster on some world in the DQ happened when the scientists created nanoprobes that were meant to be their salvation only to add the line of coding that allowed technology and biology to be converted and assimilated and then the nanoprobes themselves asserted a directive that creates devices from the process of conversion by the nanoprobes and then these devices create a subspace link that connect all lifeforms to each other.

    the disaster is as the usual sci-fi cliche goes: a lack of moral and ethical observation leading to willing test subjects being injected and from there it just grew out of control into a full blown epidemic and before long the entire planet became borg, ships on the ground were converted and refitted for the purpose of the new hive, from there more and more local space was taken over and assimilated, eventually ships formed together and created a unicomplex where more and more drones and resources would be gathered to create new cubes, spheres and interceptors.
    nikeix wrote: »
    Do people just not read Star Trek novels anymore?

    novels are non canon, why waste your time on something that does not mean anything?

    The link to show the two are connected is the statements from the showmakers that the neural parasites were the original Borg before they decided to make changes later. Just like how the original Trill had no spots and forehead protrusions, or how different the prototype Ferengi looked in STTVH.
    I'm intrigued, could you elaborate?
  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    azrael605 wrote: »
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Little tidbit of info. The original form of the Borg in TNG was in fact the "neural parasites" from Conpiracy.

    the key to the borg are the nanoprobes and not neural parasites, besides there was never any link to prove these two are connected. i suspect the borg came into existence when a lab disaster on some world in the DQ happened when the scientists created nanoprobes that were meant to be their salvation only to add the line of coding that allowed technology and biology to be converted and assimilated and then the nanoprobes themselves asserted a directive that creates devices from the process of conversion by the nanoprobes and then these devices create a subspace link that connect all lifeforms to each other.

    the disaster is as the usual sci-fi cliche goes: a lack of moral and ethical observation leading to willing test subjects being injected and from there it just grew out of control into a full blown epidemic and before long the entire planet became borg, ships on the ground were converted and refitted for the purpose of the new hive, from there more and more local space was taken over and assimilated, eventually ships formed together and created a unicomplex where more and more drones and resources would be gathered to create new cubes, spheres and interceptors.
    nikeix wrote: »
    Do people just not read Star Trek novels anymore?

    novels are non canon, why waste your time on something that does not mean anything?

    The link to show the two are connected is the statements from the showmakers that the neural parasites were the original Borg before they decided to make changes later. Just like how the original Trill had no spots and forehead protrusions, or how different the prototype Ferengi looked in STTVH.
    I'm intrigued, could you elaborate?

    Ok first I have a typo, meant Search for Spock, sorry about that. Was talking about the big eared bloke McCoy was trying to hire.
    Oooooh, interesting... I liked that guy B)
  • dmtdmt Member Posts: 194 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    nikeix wrote: »
    Do people just not read Star Trek novels anymore?

    novels are non canon, why waste your time on something that does not mean anything?

    I love the novels for the same reason I want the original SW EU to be continued. They provide the continuation of universes that I enjoy.

    And anyway Star Trek Online is non-canon so why waste your time playing it?
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