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Too high DPS for fun.

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  • steaensteaen Member Posts: 623 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    steaen wrote: »
    [...] The OP seems somehow surprised though that players doing an Elite PvE would be playing at an Elite level...*shrug*.

    Oh, I am not. I am surprised that a team of Elite players would have only things to do that apparently are not Elite. Because 5:45. With a mission that has a "optional" timer for 25 minutes.

    Sooo.....they should slow down, or the game mechanics should be changed to slow them down, so you don't feel inadequate by comparison?
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    If you can complete phase 1 within 10 mins, it'll only take a fraction of the time to finish off the rest. The Queen and Pickles hit hard, but they don't have high HP.
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    Really? How do you know that was their intention? If that was their intention, why did they make it easier to complete to the point it now takes half the time (or even less) it used to take? It's not even a DPS issue since they made it easier to use DPS builds here too. A change that many of us who ran this map before the change did not like at all.

    So how did you know that was their intention when everything they've done so far shows the opposite?
  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 9,275 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    e30ernest wrote: »
    If you can complete phase 1 within 10 mins, it'll only take a fraction of the time to finish off the rest. The Queen and Pickles hit hard, but they don't have high HP.

    Yes. An that is an error in the mission design. Because clearly the devs envisioned the whole mission to last about 25 minutes.

    So...we can add mindreader who knows exactly what the devs were thinking when they made this into your list of abilities now? It can't possibly be that they wanted to set it for 15 min and mistyped by one key when they set up the mission spec. You do know that they have publicly said that they expect adaquately geared people to finish queues in about 15 min...which makes your assumption seem less true then what I proposed MAY have happened...right? Also time gated missions take about 15 min as well...so once again, that magic number seems to be there. You once again, failed to take ANY data point other then what works for you to try and push your agenda. Do we looks stupid to you? We know exactly what you are doing and your rather crude form of propoganda does not work on people who aren't stupid. Hell, I basically support your view that DPS power creep needs to be reigned in...but the way you go about it...yeah...NO.
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    So why did they make it easier then? Sure it was a 'fix' but they could have easily normalized it to take as much time as it did. But why didn't they?
  • farranorfarranor Member Posts: 559 Arc User
    Let me draw you a chart:
                Power CAN be purchased             Power CANNOT be purchased
    
    Game is      Pros: game is challenging          Pros: game is challenging
    balanced           company makes more money           game is not pay-to-win
    around       Cons: game is pay-to-win           Cons: company makes less money
    top-tier                                        
    play
    
    Game is      Pros: game is not pay-to-win       Pros: game is not pay-to-win
    balanced           company makes more money
    around       Cons: game is not challenging      Cons: game is not challenging
    mid-tier                                              company makes less money
    play
    

    Cryptic/PWE are optimizing "company makes more money" and "game is not pay-to-win," at the cost of "game is not challenging." Sorry, high-tier players.
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    > Or in less strong words, the exact extent of what the players would be able to do with all the new stuff DR introduced was not clear to them at the time. Errare humanum est.

    This was only 2 or 3 months ago. It had nothing to do with Delta Rising. At the time 8 mins was considered excellent time.
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    And now there are a lot more people playing it. Perhaps not a lot of people share your idea of 'fun'.

    For the record, I preferred the pre nerfed version of HSE. Not because it took longer, but because it required more than just power to do. It required a mix of high dps ships, at least 1 tank and having a healer was a big bonus.

    Now those roles were somewhat depreciated.
  • steaensteaen Member Posts: 623 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    That seems likely, given the result of the poll. But I can still point out how that kills my fun.

    Ad infinitum, it seems.
  • semalda226semalda226 Member Posts: 1,994 Arc User
    Sorry to burst your bubble OP but all.those uber dps guys you whine about are flying highly tuned and specialized ships. Those people spend time, possibly money, effort, and do research while tweaking their builds to perfection to reach those massive levels of dps (usually at severe sacrifices to.other areas of play) my Annorax is a Sci/Torp boat atm and runs an average of 76k-85k DPS depending on how well I manage my CD rotation and how many enemies I have available to damage. Also I'm a Science Captain not a Tactical. Half the fun of this game is finding new ways to push my Dps even higher. If the game isn't fun for you that's your issue OP not the players you team up with or the developers (who while I complain to about the monstrous dps that appears occasionally in pugs I don't honestly want them to nerf dps to the dirt after the effort players put in to reach those numbers) that try extremely hard to come up with challenging content and enemies while under the red tape and evil eye of the IP owner that let's them run this game.

    Tldr: just stop whining and improve your builds or only team with people under 25k dps. Maybe make a 25k dps only channel!
    tumblr_mxl2nyOKII1rizambo1_500.png

  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    Another thing to remember is almost every player I've met who parses at the top of charts, and who is an active poster both here and on the Reddit, are very helpful in sharing build tips and knowledge. And one of the primary approaches is to help people fit their build to their goals. I've never seen a response along the lines of "your DPS sucks, etc, etc etc."

    It's always "What's your build? Let us know your exact ship and set up, and what you want to do with the ship and we're going to give you some advice to help."

    Everytime they work with budget, and it's because they know that every one of us are at different levels of resources and play time and find different things fun.

    This thread demonstrates that even further.

    It's not an us vs. them type of discussion and never was. They ARE us. We ARE them. We're all players of this game. Almost all of us like Star Trek. We get it. And so I keep coming back to:
    Tldr: just stop whining and improve your builds or only team with people under 25k dps. Maybe make a 25k dps only channel!

    That's solid advice. Just try and connect with people man. Talk to them more. Get more advice on things, be it gear or skills or rotation of skills. And find more people to play those maps you like together. e30ernest and semalda226 and so many others you see right here in this thread are very helpful. This game has a lot of different entry points for fun and if you really want to tackle HSE you can.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • solitair#4236 solitair Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    questerius wrote: »
    I have several ships/builds with which i can solo any borg or tholian red alert in less than 5 minutes and i haven't used them in ages except for said red alerts and foundry content on elite difficulty.

    For anything else which pops in a PUG queue the game play is simply boring. Since i don't parse as a matter of principle i don't know the exact DPS, but i estimate it's roughly 40-50k. If gameplay is boring with that amount of deeps, then how can people stand to play the game with builds which throw out even more DPS.

    Hard counters, such as FBP, and less stacking of abilities/traits is desperately needed to keep the game playable.

    For example, Eve Online penalizes stacking of modules that buff the same attributes.

    Except for farming reasons, like trying to get lots of dilithium quickly, it's really no fun to be overpowered. If your captain isn't peeing blood by the end of the battle, your enemies were unworthy. That's why Klingons take batlth to a phaser fight, because there's no glory in WMD's. I love fighting the Na'kuhl and Tholians at my humble level because it's a thrill, in my Prometheus, to be at 2 percent hull and click the engineering team button half a second before the heavy plasma torpedo hits -- rinse and repeat three times per fight. It is no fun to share a pug with someone who can solo it. It's not worth my time to be chasing around and watching my first salvo find nothing but burning debris
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    My problem has zero to do with not doing enough damage. If you haven't grasped that already, nothing I say will make you understand.

    And it is not whining, it is pointing out a real problem. Calling it whining is derogative and makes you look un-nice.

    I was more suggesting the same things e30ernest mentioned: The learning the map, learning the positioning and how to fly and where to fly and what skills to use when. That's the real big difference between your performance in this map and their performance. They blitz the map because they learned how to blitz it. It goes way beyond gear.

    Like your main theme keeps coming back to nerfing or normalizing damage output, and dealing with stacking buffs and debuffs. And it dances around keybinds. I get the impression you feel high parsing players have just tied all their relevant skills to the spacebar in one keybind. But that's not the case. There is a lot of time spent on keybinds, but it's because to get that extra step in performance, the knowledge starts with knowing what skills to use when. Then coordinating skill use with the team. And then coming up with the smoothest way to use those skills on your keyboard. The people who blitz that map are not just mashing a space bar.


    And that gets into the way this game is designed. The toolbar is massive and to do the elite content there is that challenge: Finding the skills to use at the right point and then managing your interface to make it seamless.

    That's the kind of thing that makes a huge impact and does require learning the map and running it a lot and failing. That's how progression guilds in Everquest and World of Warcraft worked, and they had smaller toolbars.

    EDIT: You can see the part about positioning in action right here on the forums. In the science build thread, there are a lot of videos linked. People link quite a few videos of their high DPS parse runs. And people watch them. Because they're looking to compare where each of the people fly and what they do to get that high result. And in the science build thread, it's all about sharing knowledge.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • thunderfoot#5163 thunderfoot Member Posts: 4,323 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    [Unnecessary, inflamatory comment modded out]
    Post edited by jodarkrider on
    Nope. It ain't Discovery. Ain't Picard, either. It's you.
  • dalolorndalolorn Member Posts: 3,655 Arc User
    @snoggymack22
    @e30ernest

    I find it interesting that after three pages, you still are missing his point, or at least part of it. He has made it blatantly clear that he can't find anyone to play with on his desired level, and that he doesn't like the alternatives of teaming up with people several tiers above him (I can't tell if this is because he chooses to be several tiers weaker or because he just isn't good enough) or abandoning the mission altogether. (I'd be lying if I said I wasn't sympathetic to his plight.)

    The problem isn't that he's weaker than he wants to be, but that anyone he's able to play with is a lot stronger than he wants to be. Semalda's advice of making a '25k DPS or less' channel seemed pretty good, except he's either unwilling or unable to invest enough time in seeking out enough players to fill such a hypothetical channel with.

    Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.p3OEBPD6HU3QI.jpg
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,441 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    So...we can add mindreader who knows exactly what the devs were thinking when they made this into your list of abilities now? It can't possibly be that they wanted to set it for 15 min and mistyped by one key when they set up the mission spec. You do know that they have publicly said that they expect adaquately geared people to finish queues in about 15 min...which makes your assumption seem less true then what I proposed MAY have happened...right? Also time gated missions take about 15 min as well...so once again, that magic number seems to be there. You once again, failed to take ANY data point other then what works for you to try and push your agenda. Do we looks stupid to you? We know exactly what you are doing and your rather crude form of propoganda does not work on people who aren't stupid. Hell, I basically support your view that DPS power creep needs to be reigned in...but the way you go about it...yeah...NO.

    In all fairness, the queue in question is labeled in-game as having an average completion time of 30 minutes. The OP has a point at least in the regard that the games' evolution has clearly left the content in the dirt, the ability to people to dish out massive amount of damage did obviously overshoot Cryptic's expectation. Then again it's also true that they repeatedly made certain parts of the game easier, so we have the weird situation of having content no challenge at all for a lot of people and content that is too hard, not much in terms of intermediate ground.

    I stand by my earlier statement though that the high dps groups are still the exception and it has been made clear now that the OP was in a premade which might have skewed their POV.​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
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  • risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,711 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    Power creep is real and it's making what's supposed to be advanced content (and with it 90% of the game) look a bit silly.

    It's the most important reason why the average PUG is nothing but a race of 'follow the FAW-escort or FAW-beam boat' that vaporises everything. Unless you're also flying like crazy, there's nothing left for you to shoot at.

    It's also the main reason why missions like ISA and CCA, with either one single enemy or a group of enemies that need to be destroyed in sequence, are pretty boring today. Missions like Borg disconnected or Undine assault, where, due to the team being split in multiple locations, everyone can contribute something and feel relevant to the team are far more interesting to me nowadays.

    And before anyone gives the advice of 'learn to play' or anything like that: I know how to play the game. I've been a member of the 30k channel for a while and of 50k since the skill revamp with mulitple builds (that weren't simply copied from Reddit or some other sources). I can keep up with the team in a FAW-ISA or KASA, but most newer players, who just broke the 10k barrier and are good enough to contribute, are probably not when they see everything being vaporised.

    Basically, the advice that is given here is that you should also be able to break the 30k barrier if you want to contribute something. While, for advanced content itself, 15-20k should be more than enough. Sorry, but that's just not reasonable advice since it basically forces everyone to chase ever higher numbers if they also want to accomplish something.
    You cannot dismiss or ignore the problems these 50, 60, 70 and 80k players are causing for the average player who also wants to PUG an ISA every now and then, only to find himself being useless for having nothing to shoot at, while, objectively speaking and compared to the NPC's, being good enough for the mission.

    Forum users who have been around for a longer time likely won't face any problems, but people shouldn't have to be reminded that there are other players in the game, who are likely finding it increasingly difficult to play the content they like due to everything being vaporised in a fraction of the time those missions were supposed to take. That's something which would be unwise to ignore as it might drive players away from the game.
  • semalda226semalda226 Member Posts: 1,994 Arc User
    Truth be told he could pop 50k with minimal effort.... get a escort with 5 tactical slots, buy cheap mk2 white AP Beams and Antiproton mag regulators and then upgrade them since it's upgrade weekend. And boom easy 50k+ and might cost 10m EC if you can craft your own tech upgrades. I did this on my Caitian Tactical Captain it runs 52.3k as of its last parse.
    tumblr_mxl2nyOKII1rizambo1_500.png

  • dalolorndalolorn Member Posts: 3,655 Arc User
    You know, you're right, I do like Undine Assault because it always feels challenging even with a good team - largely because I'm all alone or flying alongside one teammate.

    Borg Disconnected, though... I tend to just buzz around rescuing Borg without bothering to fight them, let the more powerful guys duke it out.

    Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.p3OEBPD6HU3QI.jpg
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