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Future of the STO storyline

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  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,129 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    snip
    A. Thats not what I was talking about and you know it
    B. A lot of the stuff you listed like DOFFing, Crafting, The stuff on New Romulus, Admiralty, etc. etc. all feed into "getting stuff so you can get better stuff to kill people with" be is EC, diltihum, crafting meterials or crafted items, reputation marks, skill points, etc. etc., all of those are used for one thing, getting better equipment to kill TRIBBLE with, and thus, its combat focused, as it all ties into combat, or getting things for better combat.


    But more on the topic of "The future of the STO storyline". I can see expansion 3 taking place mostly in the Alpha quadrant, as LoR was BQ focused and DR was DQ focused, and being Temporal Cold war focused.

    The 2 seasons after Expansion 3 hit will deal with us for some contrived reasons finding The Dominion to be a threat of some kind, and going into the wormhole to the Gamma Quad for Expansion 4. After that.... well, we would have faced basically every major/well known race/power in Trek lore worth a damn.

    Gamma Quad expansion would be really interesting IMO. Not only could we have the Dominion and all its servant species, but also
    -The Iconians(who are known to have had outposts out there)
    -The Hur'q(who are likely the otherwise unnamed Iconian servitors in the Gamma quad keeping the Iconian gateways hidden from the Dominion)
    -The Fek'ihri(who were implied to be created by the Hur'q)
    -The Preservers(the Star Trek: Star charts the game bases its maps off of say the first humanoids originated in the Gam,ma Quadrant)

    It would also be a good means to expand the Klingons a bit, since both the Hur'q and Fek'ihri are deeply connected to Klingon history. This is also likely why they saved the revamping of the Klingon's Fek'ihri Return arc for last, they were saving it for when it became relevant again.
    Post edited by somtaawkhar on
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,230 Arc User
    snip
    A. Thats not what I was talking about and you know it
    B. A lot of the stuff you listed like DOFFing, Crafting, The stuff on New Romulus, Admiralty, etc. etc. all feed into "getting stuff so you can get better stuff to kill people with" be is EC, diltihum, crafting meterials or crafted items, reputation marks, skill points, etc. etc., all of those are used for one thing, getting better equipment to kill TRIBBLE with, and thus, its combat focused, as it all ties into combat, or getting things for better combat.
    Ah, but when crafting there is no requirement for you to use the thing you make yourself. You can sell them to others.

    But if we follow your line of thought to it's natural conclusion, any rewards obtained from non-combat missions would also be "better equipment to kill with".
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,611 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    At this point, a Gorn Rebellion wouldn't even be newsworthy. Throughout the course of Task Force Omega, Nukara Strikeforce, Dyson Joint Command, 8472 Counter-Command, The Delta Alliance, The Iconian Resistance, and The Terran Task Force, the alliance powers have developed nearly every kind of tech imaginable.

    Well, first of all don't get too invested in arguing an idea I threw out there because I've already successfully done as a well rated, popular foundry mission that can just as well be played in 2410 as in the 2409. At a certain level I'm just going to provide to a citation and let you play around with a whole working demonstration when the foundry comes back online.

    Secondly, don't get too invested in arguing an idea that I threw out there as a suggestion and then immediately undermined myself by referencing what would be a better example for the same point (Dominion.) Ultimately it's not what I was trying to post about (Dominion too, in fact), so going off on this tangent isn't very useful to any purpose.

    Thirdly, you're assuming an instant, united response with no collateral damage on what would be an internal matter of the klingon empire. It's pretty much analogous to dismissing the thought of a civil war somewhere in the world today because modern military military tech would just decimate anyone declaring themselves in opposition to a broadly defined world order (or galactic in the case of STO) made up of still very much independent factions.

    For more on that point see: the news (and the scale of conflict from that full-blown civil war right down to insurgencies and individuals who are generally pissed off at things, all of which you could write Gorn as being in STO). Not only do you have to consider social factors in addition to military hardware but you also have to consider that what may be important isn't the entire fate of the galaxy but the places and actors involved in that relatively small conflict.

    The point is to get away from the current type of grandiose story arcs that we've been having (because they're lightly repeating very broad themes, even with lots of specific depth to each faction), and smaller scale struggle would do the job quite nicely (which also isn't to say that it's the only option, any change of narrative focus will do).
    Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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  • apollo#3942 apollo Member Posts: 12 Arc User

    duncanidaho11 wrote: »

    A Gorn Rebellion comes to particularly mind, but I'm sure the big D would be appreciated more generally :P.)
    At this point, a Gorn Rebellion wouldn't even be newsworthy. Throughout the course of Task Force Omega, Nukara Strikeforce, Dyson Joint Command, 8472 Counter-Command, The Delta Alliance, The Iconian Resistance, and The Terran Task Force, the alliance powers have developed nearly every kind of tech imaginable.

    The Gorn by themselves would be decimated. It would be like the Son'a, or the Talarians, trying to do something at this point. The alliance is so overpowered that it wouldn't even be a battle, it would be a one sided massacre of the Gorn.

    That is partially the reason Cryptic keeps bringing out bigger bads like the Iconians, and the Sphere Builders, and the Na'Khul, who all have some canon lore of exotic and abnormal technology that could actually make them something of a threat.

    Hell, after we get all the Temporal Cold War factions out of the way, the only real thing left that could prove to be a bigger bad is
    A. The T'kon empire who somehow survived ala The Iconians
    B. The Dominion, who is so large and powerful even The Iconians were hesitant to fight them until they had the resources of the Alpha and Beta quad powers behind them."


    I think a Gorn rebellion could be the end of the alliance. I can imagine that the klingon empire fight the gorn rebels and that makes many civilian casualties. Then the federation provide "human"itarian aid for the gorn rebels what makes the klinons furious and they freeze all cooperation between the empire and the feds. The federation dont stop the aid for gorn planets and cities and small battles erupt between klingon and fed fleets. The seperated incidents erupt a new war between the empire and the federation and the alliance is over.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,129 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    Ah, but when crafting there is no requirement for you to use the thing you make yourself. You can sell them to others.
    Which would get you EC, which is turn you spend on getting more stuff for your character to make them better at combat.
    snip
    A. I wasn't going too get involved in arguing that specific point.
    B. I don't care how you did at the foundry TBH. Foundry missions are always, without fail, bad fan fiction tier garbage from people who think they know the lore, or how to write a coherent storyline, yet don't know either. That they do well is only a result of people wanting to see the same bad fan fiction garbage they think would make for a good episode. And is why I am glad that 99.99% of movie, TV show, and game producers don't listen to what fans think.
    C. Your comparison is beyond idiotic because
    -Star Trek has never worked on real world ideals.
    -You completely ignore the fact that all modern insurgencies and civil wars are happening in third world countries that lack a proper military to keep the peace.
    D. A smaller scale struggle would only result in large parts of the player base having no narrative reason to care about what is going on, which is bad writing for a game defined. That you think it would be good only proves my point B, and is exactly why most games, especially MMOs which are focused on pandering to a very large player base, don't do them.
    I think a Gorn rebellion could be the end of the alliance. I can imagine that the klingon empire fight the gorn rebels and that makes many civilian casualties. Then the federation provide "human"itarian aid for the gorn rebels what makes the klinons furious and they freeze all cooperation between the empire and the feds. The federation dont stop the aid for gorn planets and cities and small battles erupt between klingon and fed fleets. The seperated incidents erupt a new war between the empire and the federation and the alliance is over.
    Gorn space is so in the middle of nowhere that the Gorn could do basically anything they wanted and no one would care because there is nothing out there. Whats more is that if the Gorn started a rebellion, they would be the aggressors against the Klingons who have allowed them to keep everything about their culture, religion, and politics, and generally made Gorn lives better by providing them with technology far beyond what they had before.

    The Feds would have zero reason to help them, and every reason to help the Empire, especially given that The Empire is one of the three major forces of the alliance, which the Fed knows is needed for stability in the region.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,611 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    A. I wasn't going too get involved in arguing that specific point.
    B. I don't care how you did at the foundry TBH. Foundry missions are always, without fail, bad fan fiction tier garbage from people who think they know the lore, or how to write a coherent storyline, yet don't know either. That they do well is only a result of people wanting to see the same bad fan fiction garbage they think would make for a good episode. And is why I am glad that 99.99% of movie, TV show, and game producers don't listen to what fans think.
    C. Your comparison is beyond idiotic because
    -Star Trek has never worked on real world ideals.
    -You completely ignore the fact that all modern insurgencies and civil wars are happening in third world countries that lack a proper military to keep the peace.
    D. A smaller scale struggle would only result in large parts of the player base having no narrative reason to care about what is going on, which is bad writing for a game defined. That you think it would be good only proves my point B, and is exactly why most games, especially MMOs which are focused on pandering to a very large player base, don't do them.

    A. I was referring to how far you'd already gone in trying to argue the matter.

    B. Your opinion about the foundry in general is pretty irrelevant ATM. That mission exists, that's a simple fact. It's been very well received (almost point for point because your statement above is quite ludicrous) and you're more than welcome to give Gemini a try and see for yourself how this plot point can work out in coherent narrative when the Foundry comes back online in a couple weeks (most likely).

    I obviously doubt you will but that's not the point in confidently offering a working example to illustrate something. You should take note of that. :tongue:

    C. Simply put, you are wrong on both of those tangents. It's generally hard to say that unequivocally in any discussion but you've made some incredibly baffling statements here. It's the basis of Star Trek that it worked ideas into a sci-fi format that expressed concepts and questions relevant to modern society (this is point 1 in the hackneyed explanation of why people watched Star Trek, and also how sci-fi works too), which incidentally does not function because of the presence of strong national militaries (ex. Japan) function better with more military investment (ex. Russia) or break down exclusively in "the third world" (ex. Syria.)

    And before your ego drives you headlong into another reply, let me say that in making these statements you've wandered well afield from the original topic and you're unlikely to sway any minds here by trying to continue it (you definitely can hear the sound of the thin ice creaking). Just take a step back and consider that you may want to walk away from this thread entirely (if you want to try having an earnest discussion, great, but I sadly doubt that's possible at this point).

    It's not like you care what my or anyone else's opinion is anyway, so why waste any more time exclusively trying to gain-say the former to show off to the latter? :tongue:

    D. That's still not very intelligible. MMO's can do smaller scale stories such as those STO has already done with the Nimbus, Breen, Fek'lhr, Voth, Borg, Romulans, Dominion, and True Way. At no point can you say that there's a consistent failing of writing because of that scale either. It works, it's in the game, and you're welcome to review it if you want to come to a stronger opinion.
    Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,611 Arc User
    edited April 2016


    I think a Gorn rebellion could be the end of the alliance. I can imagine that the klingon empire fight the gorn rebels and that makes many civilian casualties. Then the federation provide "human"itarian aid for the gorn rebels what makes the klinons furious and they freeze all cooperation between the empire and the feds. The federation dont stop the aid for gorn planets and cities and small battles erupt between klingon and fed fleets. The seperated incidents erupt a new war between the empire and the federation and the alliance is over.

    You're on the right track there. You don't have to have a villain faction that represents a mortal threat to the entire galaxy (or history of the universe) to have a compelling story. Looking at the implications for a part of it will do just fine.

    How I approached a Gorn rebellion was actually a few stages lower than the Alliance (which may or may not be a factor depending on the time period you select in dialog). I focused on only one neutral planet that got caught up in the Gorn's machinations. You go there, work through a related plot, and find yourself in a situation at the end where in spite of the odds stacked against them the Gorn attack openly (aligning themselves against the KDF and FED). They're inevitably defeated (they were doomed from the start) but not before risking that planet which I spent the mission populating and characterizing (not to mention the Gorn themselves). Good story told in a contemporary STO context using small scale ambitions (because there you're dealing more closely with relatable human factors rather than mainly an abstract epic. You don't have quite the same expansive drama but there's plenty to compensate for it.)

    The fate of the everything and everyone wasn't up for grabs, but as we've all presumably seen through Trek and other IP it's not as if that's a requirement you need to consistently follow using every story told in a series. Changing the tune, even if only for a few notes, can be a good thing as it can also set a greater contrast with the big climax moments and thereby enhance their impact. And granted we did actually have that with the Lukari-Tholian plot thread but I personally think STO needs just a little bit more of a diversion in the main STO episodes (or alternatively I just need to get back to the other kind of thing in the foundry :P).
    Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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  • gradiigradii Member Posts: 2,816 Arc User
    Because no one does New Romulus outside of Eppohs, and 20+ missions were all you do is click dialogue boxes isn't fun. option.
    Absolutely personal opinion.

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  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,129 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    D. That's still not very intelligible. MMO's can do smaller scale stories such as those STO has already done with the Nimbus, Breen, Fek'lhr, Voth, Borg, Romulans, Dominion, and True Way. At no point can you say that there's a consistent failing of writing because of that scale either. It works, it's in the game, and you're welcome to review it if you want to come to a stronger opinion.
    None of the storylines you listed were small.
    -Nimbus: Tied directly into the greater Iconian plot, or did you forget how everything was ultimately revealed to be part of Hakeeve's plans, and a means for the Elachi to kidnap people to experiment on?
    -Breen: Literally almost found THE PRESERVERS THEMSELVES, the most ancient and powerful corporeal race to ever exist, who had information even The Iconians feared. Totally small and didn't tie into the larger narrative at all!
    -Voth: A highly advanced race that can give the Borg a run for their money finds and attempts to capture a massive dyson sphere that generates Omega particles and could destroy warp travel in large parts of the galaxy if used improperly.
    -Borg: Were poised to destroy the Alpha and Beta Quad(its even mentioned in 2800 that if left unchecked the Borg could take over in 3 years or less)
    -Romulans: Not sure if you are referring to the Romulan Republic, or the other Romulan storyline, but both were heavily tied in the far larger meta-story of the Iconians, their servitors, and their plans.
    -Dominion: A massive fleet of 2,800 ships that could wipe the floor with any ship in the alliance appears out of nowhere, takes DS9, and threatens to spread and destroy large parts of the Alpha and Beta quads.
    -True Way: a Group of Cardassian rebels makes a deal with a large number of changelings, the Jem Hadar left behind in the AQ, as well as the Mirror Universe, and could have very possible taken over or destroyed the Alpha Quadrant if left unchecked.

    The only one you have any sort of actual point on is the Fek'Ihri arc, but thats only because
    A. They haven't revamped it yet.
    B. It ended on a cliffhanger and we haven't reached the point in the narrative where we would get access to the Gamma Quad to continue it.

    Literally every single story you mentioned tied into the greater narrative in some way, and has been referenced, brought up, or impacted the overall story in some larger way. None of the thing you listed are small scale stories by any means unless you totally ignore the context behind them, and all tie ins to other narratives they had.

    But this sort of blatant historical revisionism isn't uncommon from people like you. You should be ashamed to think you could fool anyone with such obviously false TRIBBLE.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,611 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    Literally every single story you mentioned tied into the greater narrative in some way, and has been referenced, brought up, or impacted the overall story in some larger way. None of the thing you listed are small scale stories by any means unless you totally ignore the context behind them, and all tie ins to other narratives they had.

    Context=/=story, simple point that. Context provides a place for a given set of actions but that term is not interchangeable with those actions.

    On nimbus for example there was a single tangent with Iconian implications but only through a Romulan plot and an attached Elachi officer. That's a connection (foreshadowing) but is that in any way analogous to explicit plot points about preventing the ruination of the universe or stopping a foe who is very directly trying to destroy the galaxy? Nope, because while the STO universe may be involved in all these plots and sub-plots it's only context. What we did on nimbus uncover an Orion Syndicate cell and, later, a Tal Shiar research base. That's all. List the actions if you have trouble working through this point more generally. Saving all of time and space from an immediate threat was not a central plot element (as it has been in some recent episodes.)

    That's a very straight forward and uncontentious statement (that also applies for every other arc mentioned, Solanae included. Except in the Dyson Ground Battlezone omega particles were never a major plot element. Context building reference? Yes. Story point? No.) Let's see what you make of it.
    But this sort of blatant historical revisionism isn't uncommon from people like you. You should be ashamed to think you could fool anyone with such obviously false TRIBBLE.

    I'll just let this speak for itself. It's quite the shame (in an abstract sense), but the choice to expose yourself in this way is yours.
    Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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  • antonine3258antonine3258 Member Posts: 2,376 Arc User
    The Nimbus episode was an attempt to, basically, recover WMDs from any potential rogue agents. It was pretty serious - those ended up getting tied to the Vault/Reman Resistance storyline as the Remans ended up with the triggers.
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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,611 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    The Nimbus episode was an attempt to, basically, recover WMDs from any potential rogue agents. It was pretty serious - those ended up getting tied to the Vault/Reman Resistance storyline as the Remans ended up with the triggers.

    True, but prior to Delta Rising I odn't think we really have a clear rising progression of stakes and scales. In the Klingon Arc for example we had several devastating plots against the FED (some as bad, or worse, as loose Thalaron weapons) but even with a recurring villain they didn't necessarily follow a rising pattern across arcs (B'vat's series had a rising action and climax but the Dividians didn't make anything of it). And what followed Nimbus (especially in the Cardassian arc) didn't even hold to the same level of crisis to what might have happened if the worst fears about rogue WMD's was realized (but as you know they weren't, it was a concern but never an immediate threat to a planet, like the Doomsday Machine was earlier).

    What we had instead were a number of singular crises but the key point is that they involved a somewhat greater variety of different plot scales. And even though the 2800, for example, was really about one station it managed to hold its own against Borg threats to the fringes of space and Mirror Universe plans of conquest because it used its chosen dimensions relatively well. It wasn't absolutely necessary to keep the tension at the same level from previous arcs for that story to work.


    Anyway, (to sum up my very small criticism here) very recently it seems that in the old arcs there was little more thematic variety (which is also evident from what else we get up to on Nimbus). Now that isn't to say that what we have now is one-note galactic melodrama (ex. the first episode of the current series, Kobali Prime) or that it was wrong to try something big with the Iconian War. It's just that with broadly similar themes, stories, and stakes involved as central mission elements the narrative return on them now, in the current series, isn't as high as it might be if you take those missions by themselves.

    More notably changing pace (just to break the growing feeling of a pattern) could be a good thing.
    Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,129 Arc User
    omega particles were never a major plot element.
    Except they were THE stated reason as to why the fight against the Voth was important in the first place.
    I'll just let this speak for itself. It's quite the shame (in an abstract sense), but the choice to expose yourself in this way is yours.
    Stop trying to play the enlightened and humble side, its utterly transparent.
    True, but prior to Delta Rising I odn't think we really have a clear rising progression of stakes and scales..
    Rising stakes started with task Force Omega and the borg arc, and the rep system in general. Each rep, except the Rom one, all the way to the Iconian one has portrayed each new enemy faction as being more serious then the last
    -OHH MAN THE BORG! THESE GUYS WERE LIKE THE STRONGEST THINGS IN THE TV SHOW BESIDES THE Q AND OTHER MAGIC BEINGS!
    -OHH MAN THE VOTH! THESE GUYS CAN KICK THE BORGS TRIBBLE SO THEY ARE EVEN WORSE!
    -OHH MAN THE UNDINE! THESE GUYS CAN KICK BOTH THE BORG AND THE VOTH'S BUTTS! THEY ARE FAR WORSE!
    THEN we hit Delta Rising and got
    -OHH MAN THE VAADWUAR! THESE GUYS ARE KICKING THE TRIBBLE OF THE BORG, VOTH, AND COULD KICK THE TRIBBLE OF THE UNDINE! SUPER SCARY!
    -OHH MAN THE ICONIANS! THESE GUYS ARE THE BIG BADS BEHIND EVERY OTHER BIG BAD!
    -OHH MAN ITS THE MIRROR UNIVERSE! AND THEY HAVE TECH FROM THE FUTURE THAT LET THEM BEAT THE ICONIANS! HOLY TRIBBLE MAN SUPER SCARY NOW!
    What we had instead were a number of singular crises but the key point is that they involved a somewhat greater variety of different plot scales. And even though the 2800, for example, was really about one station it managed to hold its own against Borg threats to the fringes of space and Mirror Universe plans of conquest because it used its chosen dimensions relatively well. It wasn't absolutely necessary to keep the tension at the same level from previous arcs for that story to work.
    That because the narrative and the factions were at that point not unified, and the early content was nothing more then a "explore your equals and remove the elements that are preventing peace and unification against the REAL big bad!" campaign.

    They stopped doing that because it stopped making sense to make narrative like that as all the agitating elements had been removed, and Cryptic had already explored every major race that was roughly of equal level to the Feds/Klingons. They moved onto increasing levels of big bad because it was the only thing left that could reasonably pose any sort of danger or challenge.

    Going back to fight Gorn, or the Son'A, or any of those other one off races from the TV shows/movies would be nothing more then a display of how hilariously super powerful the alliance races have gotten since they started coming together around the Task Force Omega arc. There would be even less urgency then there was in the often mocked "war-less" Iconian arc because these guys don't even have the lore of being powerful by any means. It would just be a one shot episode of us kicking their TRIBBLE easily before going back to the bigger bad, which would be an entirely pointless waste of dev resources.
  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,245 Arc User
    Instead of another expansion, how bout a revamp of the galaxy and actually make us feel depending on where we are in time fight a REAL WAR.

    For example, having a fluid front line for the Fed/KDF war. How there are separate instances, make one instance of the galaxy the KDF/FED war. Another dealing with Borghese incursions later on, another for the Iconian war where we actually defend planets and fight a real war.

    Enough with the expansions, how bout we take what we have and make it more immersive and sandbox like.
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  • psycoticvulcanpsycoticvulcan Member Posts: 4,160 Arc User
    STO jumped the shark the moment they introduced lock boxes. Not because of the usual "lock boxes are unethical and greedy blah blah blah" arguments, but because it basically forced the devs to constantly create new alien ships each update to keep the boxes new and interesting. Instead of an evolving storyline that made use of the story elements we already have, like the Gorn rebellions and the True Way conflict, we get a new enemy of the month along with a couple of queues and an FE or two. Then boom, that crisis is resolved and it's on to the next lock box and the next Big Bad a few months later.

    That, I believe, is why the Iconian War fell so flat. It was built up as this epic climatic war, but in practice it didn't feel any different than the season-long crises we'd already grown used to.
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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,611 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    Except they were THE stated reason as to why the fight against the Voth was important in the first place.

    See. context. Omega factored directly into one mid-series plot point (stopping the jump) and was then dropped immediately from the rest of the series (and that episode). It wasn't a significant part of the total story (any arc-linking McGuffin would have done), it was a significant piece of background that helped to explain several setting details. It created possible implications that we faced once, and not as a doomsday device (similar to temporal weapons or an Iconian invasion fleet) but as an unintended consequence of other conflicts.
    Stop trying to play the enlightened and humble side, its utterly transparent.

    Once again I'm just going to quote your approach to discussion and let it speak for itself.
    Going back to fight Gorn, or the Son'A, or any of those other one off races from the TV shows/movies would be nothing more then a display of how hilariously super powerful the alliance races have gotten since they started coming together around the Task Force Omega arc. There would be even less urgency then there was in the often mocked "war-less" Iconian arc because these guys don't even have the lore of being powerful by any means. It would just be a one shot episode of us kicking their TRIBBLE easily before going back to the bigger bad, which would be an entirely pointless waste of dev resources.

    I'll toss out a word you threw out earlier: TRIBBLE. It's crass and overly dismissive but at this point it's probably appropriate. Why? Just look at going back and fighting the Tholians after the Iconians or encountering other hostile Delta Quadrant species after the introduction of the Vaadwuar. You entire premise here doesn't have an iota of support regardless of how forcefully you try to state it. You can say "hey, they wouldn't be a threat!" ad infinitum but guess what, you can easily present it the other way. Change the stakes, change the setting, (as recent missions have already done, see. Sunrise) and you can most definitely create a compelling episode or arc involving something at a smaller scale than the previous one. See. the Krenim after the Iconians. Noyes' faction has some temporal weaponry but not only has that not been a significant tactical advantage so far but for all the jumping the Annorax was able to do it could be mostly countered by our 29th century allies. Na'kuhl? 29th century tech but guess who we're still working with (and they don't have to contend with the resources of the fringe, questionable access to quality technology, or a relatively tiny population, the bulk of which isn't hostile.)

    So where's your claims that "oh, they cannot possibly be a real threat"? Dead, because the game as it stands now (as much as these factions hit similar notes with their ambitions and backstory, which is all I'm criticizing them for) have decreasing practical capabilities (ie. raw power) that should, according to what you've said, fail to impress. But quite tellingly you've blithely accepted it. The scale of the antagonists in one sense is decreasing (from galaxy builders to supported former allies to fringe zealots) and yet you stand here and try to argue that precisely that thing can't work, and that STO can't take that one step further and create a little more "thematic diversity" in the next available arc.

    I've done that, other foundry authors have done that, and cryptic has done that in what I simply feel is too limited a capacity. And that's the little, innocuous personal point of view you've no-less than fought to gain-say (as if there was something at stake here. With game dev the lengthy process it is any suggestion I or anyone else makes about the next arc is most likely just a hope of what's already in development. But that's the way we feel.) Still disagree? You're welcome to it, this is after all a discussion on the internet, but don't expect others to accept unto themselves your word unsupported (at least when they have well stated reasons for believing what they do. Just leave it as to each his/her own and move on.)
    Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,129 Arc User
    and not as a doomsday device
    Except it was, and was portrayed as such. Hell, they treated it as more of a doomsday weapon then the doomsday weapon from the Klingon arc!
    Once again I'm just going to quote your approach to discussion and let it speak for itself.
    Your not fooling anyone m8. I don't pretend to pass myself off as some master of writing just because I made a few foundry missions like you do.
    snip
    1. The Tholians and those other Delta species were never betrayed as a threat in Delta Rising or beyond, nor was the story focused around them. They were simply there because they would logically be.

    2. Noye, the Krenim, and the Na'khul are a threat because they have technology even The Iconians feared. The whole damn message beaten into the player's heads during the Iconian arc is that time travel technology IS the most advanced and powerful technology EVER, even able to undo The Iconians. It doesn't matter if Noye, the Krenim, and the Na'khul have 29th century ships and the like, they have time travel, they don't need anything else. The game very obviously upped the damn stakes again by presenting us with a faction with a technological marvel that even the Iconians couldn't deal with, making them more of a threat then the Iconians. One doesn't need more advanced weapons when they can just go back in time before you had any at all and kill you then.

    For someone who keep claiming to be a master of narratives, you really can't seem to follow even the basic narrative of STO.
    The scale of the antagonists in one sense is decreasing (from galaxy builders to supported former allies to fringe zealots)
    Sure, if you take the narrative out of context and totally ignore the Sphere Builder element in the current plot line, and the Sphere Builders are easily Iconian level threats, if not more because they can time travel.
    I've done that, other foundry authors have done that, and cryptic has done that in what I simply feel is too limited a capacity. And that's the little, innocuous personal point of view you've no-less than fought to gain-say (as if there was something at stake here. With game dev the lengthy process it is any suggestion I or anyone else makes about the next arc is most likely just a hope of what's already in development. But that's the way we feel.) Still disagree? You're welcome to it, this is after all a discussion on the internet, but don't expect others to accept unto themselves your word unsupported (at least when they have well stated reasons for believing what they do. Just leave it as to each his/her own and move on.)
    Except you have done no such thing.

    All you have done so far is claim the equivalent that Lord of the Rings should have had a chapter or two where all they did was sit at a bar drinking where nothing that happened before mattered to that chapter, and were nothing that happened after would be effect by that chapter. You have done nothing but argue for pointless filler content, which is bad writing defined.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,611 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    Your not fooling anyone m8. I don't pretend to pass myself off as some master of writing just because I made a few foundry missions like you do.

    This is as far as I'll go in entertaining this tangent of yours. Neither I or I imagine anyone else really cares enough to see it continue further.

    I'm just talking about what I think works for writing. Did I ever pass that off as authority? Nope, that's just one of your own contortions. I just provided explanations from my POV and further (and I used a direct quote here) "working examples" of the sort you would use to illustrate a point. I can say for example how Gorn plot could have been added to STO from my experience making just kind of mission. However it doesn't matter that I personally was the one to make it. Anyone whose played it can cite Gemini as a relevant hypothetical to illustrate the point. My personal role is that I did a sufficient job for Gemini to work as such. That's all there really is do it. It doesn't say anything about me, just what the facts of the situation are. Now, having a Gorn rebellion was not the point I was originally trying to make (it was just a tangential reference, and one I immediately downplayed myself because it was just a bit of self-indulgence) but beyond that discussion I used more examples to argue point for point why you have no basis.

    On the face of it that's a pretty pointed way of handling a discussion but to recap for those just joining, some of your contributions include:

    -Star Trek has nothing to do with the real world
    -STO enemies are only compelling now if they have more power than the previous
    -Civil wars can only happen today in "third world" countries with no strong military

    (stating why the latter in particular isn't true apparently makes me guilty of shameful "historical revisionism")

    These displays were quite shocking which is why I bothered trying to help explain things to you. But a level discussion isn't what you're really here for, as is evident from the fact that you've fixated on my personality as a talking point pretty much from the start. Hell, I don't even care to make that a topic of general conversation so what you find so enthralling isn't something I completely understand (nor do I particularly want to.)

    So you're again free to disagree and even to post more wild fancies about who I am and what I get up to. What you spend your weekend on is your business. But for the sake of not completely derailing a thread I'm not going to waste any more consideration on you (it would be very odd at this point if I did.)
    Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Last missions:
    Evolution's Smile [SSF:3-3]
    Epoch, Part 2 [AEI]
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    Looking for something new to play? The interactive Foundry Mission Database has you covered.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,129 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    This is as far as I'll go in entertaining this tangent of yours. Neither I or I imagine anyone else really cares enough to see it continue further.
    Always easier to run for any sort of criticism then to face it in rational debate ehh?
    Did I ever pass that off as authority? Nope
    Actually you did when you tried to use the popularity of your foundry mission as proof.
    -Star Trek has nothing to do with the real world
    -Civil wars can only happen today in "third world" countries with no strong military
    -I said it has nothing to do with real world ideals, not the real world at all.
    -I actually said all modern civil wars are happening in third world countries, not that its impossible for one to happen in a first world one.

    If you are going to lie, at least do so in a way that doesn't take all of 5 seconds of going back up the thread to dismiss. It only makes your argument hollow and make you look desperate.

    Its things like that that have made the STO community one of the most singular mocked MMO communities, and is likely why the devs prefer to give out information on reddit then here.

    Absolutely shameful.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,611 Arc User
    Always easier to run for any sort of criticism then to face it in rational debate ehh?

    I'm just quoting this to highlight for people that you actually tried to use the word "rational." :tongue:

    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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    Evolution's Smile [SSF:3-3]
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    Looking for something new to play? The interactive Foundry Mission Database has you covered.
  • solitair#4236 solitair Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    As a Bajoran TAC, I would like to see more action from the Dominion, with dailies and reputation in the Gamma Quadrant.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,611 Arc User
    As a Bajoran TAC, I would like to see more action from the Dominion, with dailies and reputation in the Gamma Quadrant.

    I think the Dominion ranks pretty highly when the talk of "what would you like to see in the next expansion" comes up. So we'll see! It always depends on the way its handled but there's a lot of new ground to cover there considering how little of the gamma quadrant DS9 actually got around to exploring. :P

    Find some way of incorporating that with an exploration system (probably need to make some big events happen) and you have a real winner.
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Last missions:
    Evolution's Smile [SSF:3-3]
    Epoch, Part 2 [AEI]
    Transcendence, Part 4
    Memorial Tour

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    Looking for something new to play? The interactive Foundry Mission Database has you covered.
  • solitair#4236 solitair Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    I just finished watching DS9, and in the final episode, Sisko promises a return - and that his return would be unexpected and non-linear. It would be awesome to add Avery Brooks to our list of celebrity voice-overs to usher in the return of Sisko (and maybe some other associated DS9ers) and a new Dominion plot.

    Dream it, Devs!
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,129 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    As a Bajoran TAC, I would like to see more action from the Dominion, with dailies and reputation in the Gamma Quadrant.
    Dominion/Gamma Quad will likely be Expansion 4 after the Temporal Cold War/Alpha quadrant based expansion.

    Given the unresolved situation with the Hur'q, who come from the Gamm Quad, as well their creations the Fek'Irhi, I would suspect they would play a large role in the expansion also.

    Though given that The Dominion are part of the future Galactic Union as seen in the "Time and Tide" mission, The Dominion is unlikely to be the big enemy of the Gamma quad expansion. It might turn out to be some sort of false flag situation set up by some other race, like the Hur'q, where the Dominion attacks us, or we attack them, because we each think the other attacked them first, only to find out it was the Hur'q, and them we both team up to take them on.

    Gamma Quad would actually be a comparatively easy expansion to do, at least compared to Delta Rising, because theres only like 20 or so races from the Gamma Quad in Star Trek Lore, and we already have 3-4 of them in-game already.

    I also would be surprised if the Female Changling getting released in the 2800 arc doesn't play into it in some way.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,230 Arc User
    As a Bajoran TAC, I would like to see more action from the Dominion, with dailies and reputation in the Gamma Quadrant.

    I think the Dominion ranks pretty highly when the talk of "what would you like to see in the next expansion" comes up. So we'll see! It always depends on the way its handled but there's a lot of new ground to cover there considering how little of the gamma quadrant DS9 actually got around to exploring. :P

    Find some way of incorporating that with an exploration system (probably need to make some big events happen) and you have a real winner.
    It's worth remembering that the Dominion in STO is a kinder gentler Dominion than in DS9. For one, Odo is part of the Great Link.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • kodachikunokodachikuno Member Posts: 6,020 Arc User1
    I think somtaawkhar and duncanidaho11 both just need to get a private room and work out all that tension... stop spewing drivel all over this thread
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,129 Arc User
    It's worth remembering that the Dominion in STO is a kinder gentler Dominion than in DS9. For one, Odo is part of the Great Link.
    Not really, they are just less willing to attack the Alpha/Beta quad powers because they know we could just unleash another version of the virus on them.

    But with the return of the genocidal female changeling, things could easily take a turn for the worse. Odo cant stop them forever.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,611 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    It's worth remembering that the Dominion in STO is a kinder gentler Dominion than in DS9. For one, Odo is part of the Great Link.

    That would be a great angle to explore. The Dominion has a long history and strong social apparatus but with the reintegration of Odo there's the positive aspect of progressive change that's there to be developed. It doesn't have to be a complete change by 2409/2410 or even one that's picked up a whole lot of inertia but over the course of an arc it's definitely something that could make a very good, suitably Trek, story to cover (especially for a mini-faction :tongue:).
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Last missions:
    Evolution's Smile [SSF:3-3]
    Epoch, Part 2 [AEI]
    Transcendence, Part 4
    Memorial Tour

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    Looking for something new to play? The interactive Foundry Mission Database has you covered.
  • solitair#4236 solitair Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    Remember Laas? He was a changeling that Odo encountered whilst the Founders were sick. What if there was an Alpha Link established by Laas that never signed the treaty. He was quite adamant in his distrust and hatred of solids. He could easily repurpose the Jem Hadar. They'd serve Laas and the Alpha Link without hesitation. They'd consider the Gamma Link compromised, at best, and corrupted by Odo's influence.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,129 Arc User
    Remember Laas? He was a changeling that Odo encountered whilst the Founders were sick. What if there was an Alpha Link established by Laas that never signed the treaty. He was quite adamant in his distrust and hatred of solids. He could easily repurpose the Jem Hadar. They'd serve Laas and the Alpha Link without hesitation. They'd consider the Gamma Link compromised, at best, and corrupted by Odo's influence.
    That was like, the entire plot of the current in-game the Cardassian story arc.

    Laas got all the other Alpha Changelings together, formed a New Link, allied with the Jem Hadar left in the Alpha Quadrant after the war, and the True Way terrorist group, and tried attacking stuff.

    We beat him, got the other Changelings in his New Link to see he was lying to them, and they were like "ok, we wont attack you, but leave us alone"

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