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Official Feedback Thread for Skill Revamp (v3.0!)

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  • ensignfreekillensignfreekill Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    @battykodao zen, dilithium, and EC are all "convertible currencies" ...

    EC = Contraband (200k for 5) = 2k Dilithium

    That's an exchange rate of 100 EC = 1Dil

    Zen is 300Dil = 1 zen.

    Retrain Token = 500 Zen.

    So in EC your retrain token costs 500z * 300 (dil/z) x 100 (ec/dil) = 15 Million EC.

    It will take One character ~19 Days to refine it, but can be done easily with just rolling a new low level toon, grinding them up to doff level and parking them at the security officer with a fat stack of contraband. I recommend rolling a Klingon. Easier to get up to doffing level and then you can also use them to farm the contraband to lower the cost.

    Now the argument can be made that 19 days worth of refining dilithium is too much for a retrain token... and it's probably a bit steep.. but then we are just talking about price. Cryptic doesn't set the exchange rate. Those float on the market. When zen drops under 200 dill then you are looking at 12 days worth, and it was there not too long ago. But if its still too slow for you, make two or three alts and park them. Goes 2 or three times faster, and still very little effort on the conversion. Ive got 9 toons so I can convert dil/ec fast. I just usually need the EC more.

    I guess what I'm saying is converting ec to dil to zen is possible. The larger complaint I am hearing here is "15 million ec is too much" for a respec. I'm at the point where I can farm either fairly easily so I'm not in a good place to judge if its too much. Probably is.

    However I just thought I would throw you a technique to use to make it easier and clarify the argument. 15 million EC (+ time) is what a respec costs right now.








  • battykoda0battykoda0 Member Posts: 959 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    @battykodao zen, dilithium, and EC are all "convertible currencies" ...

    EC = Contraband (200k for 5) = 2k Dilithium

    That's an exchange rate of 100 EC = 1Dil

    Zen is 300Dil = 1 zen.

    Retrain Token = 500 Zen.

    So in EC your retrain token costs 500z * 300 (dil/z) x 100 (ec/dil) = 15 Million EC.

    It will take One character ~19 Days to refine it, but can be done easily with just rolling a new low level toon, grinding them up to doff level and parking them at the security officer with a fat stack of contraband. I recommend rolling a Klingon. Easier to get up to doffing level and then you can also use them to farm the contraband to lower the cost.

    Now the argument can be made that 19 days worth of refining dilithium is too much for a retrain token... and it's probably a bit steep.. but then we are just talking about price. Cryptic doesn't set the exchange rate. Those float on the market. When zen drops under 200 dill then you are looking at 12 days worth, and it was there not too long ago. But if its still too slow for you, make two or three alts and park them. Goes 2 or three times faster, and still very little effort on the conversion. Ive got 9 toons so I can convert dil/ec fast. I just usually need the EC more.

    I guess what I'm saying is converting ec to dil to zen is possible. The larger complaint I am hearing here is "15 million ec is too much" for a respec. I'm at the point where I can farm either fairly easily so I'm not in a good place to judge if its too much. Probably is.

    However I just thought I would throw you a technique to use to make it easier and clarify the argument. 15 million EC (+ time) is what a respec costs right now.








    Yeah... I'm talking about silver coins garnered from a piece of gray trash that takes about 15ms to grind. It's not a matter of conversion or the time frame to do it. I have a couple hundred thousand dilithium just sitting there doing nothing. The matter is that this is the only MMO in my MMO hop around rotation that charges cash for repecs. They are also introducing a new skill system that they know people are going to make mistakes on, careful or not, and those mistakes will cost $5 each to fix, converted or purchased.

    I have bought plenty of them in the past. I said the same thing 3 years ago that I am saying now when I bought them also. "What a rip off."

    I'm not knocking your argument because that is the way it works in STO. I'm knocking the way it works. I have always knocked the way it works and I will continue to knock it. It's lame.

    Outside of that continuing bit of annoyance from the dawn of STO time, I love the rest of the changes. In my way of thinking, a rotten apple doesn't ruin the whole bushel. There are plenty of other apples in this crate that are nice.

    EDIT: Drop the price to the price of a key and I will call it a concession and meet you (Cryptic) in the middle.
    Wow. There is a new KDF Science ship. I'll be!
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,961 Arc User
    battykoda0 wrote: »
    @battykodao zen, dilithium, and EC are all "convertible currencies" ...

    EC = Contraband (200k for 5) = 2k Dilithium

    That's an exchange rate of 100 EC = 1Dil

    Zen is 300Dil = 1 zen.

    Retrain Token = 500 Zen.

    So in EC your retrain token costs 500z * 300 (dil/z) x 100 (ec/dil) = 15 Million EC.

    It will take One character ~19 Days to refine it, but can be done easily with just rolling a new low level toon, grinding them up to doff level and parking them at the security officer with a fat stack of contraband. I recommend rolling a Klingon. Easier to get up to doffing level and then you can also use them to farm the contraband to lower the cost.

    Now the argument can be made that 19 days worth of refining dilithium is too much for a retrain token... and it's probably a bit steep.. but then we are just talking about price. Cryptic doesn't set the exchange rate. Those float on the market. When zen drops under 200 dill then you are looking at 12 days worth, and it was there not too long ago. But if its still too slow for you, make two or three alts and park them. Goes 2 or three times faster, and still very little effort on the conversion. Ive got 9 toons so I can convert dil/ec fast. I just usually need the EC more.

    I guess what I'm saying is converting ec to dil to zen is possible. The larger complaint I am hearing here is "15 million ec is too much" for a respec. I'm at the point where I can farm either fairly easily so I'm not in a good place to judge if its too much. Probably is.

    However I just thought I would throw you a technique to use to make it easier and clarify the argument. 15 million EC (+ time) is what a respec costs right now.

    Yeah... I'm talking about silver coins garnered from a piece of gray trash that takes about 15ms to grind. It's not a matter of conversion or the time frame to do it. I have a couple hundred thousand dilithium just sitting there doing nothing. The matter is that this is the only MMO in my MMO hop around rotation that charges cash for repecs.
    Well, but it's probably also the only MMO that does other things like it does them. Maybe respecs that you need to buy is the "cost" of releasing all story content for free, or getting endgame ships (which almost no MMO actually has a direct equivalent for in the first place) from an in-game event.

    I dunno. My personal guess is that the issue will end up being overrated. The main reason of a respec will be the same as before - you want to try something new, or optimize a build further.

    Mustrum "Except for me, I'll probably misclick all the time" Ridcully


    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • ensignfreekillensignfreekill Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    EDIT: Drop the price to the price of a key and I will call it a concession and meet you (Cryptic) in the middle.

    Cant say I disagree with you there. However that kind of is it. Its too expensive. Its not that its the wrong type of currency, its that its too much. The wrong type is a pointless argument about conversion. Too much for how often we are going to need them, that's a fair point. But keep in mind you are talking to people who need to keep the lights on, to keep our universe from imploding. Preventing divide by zero errors and such. :smile: Saying "you need to be paid less" is a hard argument to win.

    However I would put this out there. I would pay a large sum of Zen to be able to have 2 specs to swap back and forth between. With this new spec system being more "specialized" and harder to spread out to be "reasonably effective" in multiple areas.

    I fly a lot of ships, depending on what suits my mood. I have a generalized build right now that does well across all of them. I can replicate that build but I will "miss out" on all the new goodies. I probably wont want to. This is not a complaint. This is an opportunity. I would love to have 2 builds, one science focused and one tack focused, that I can switch to while sitting around on New Romulus choosing my next mission. I think there are a lot of others who would agree. So if you are looking for a new feature that people would dump tons of $$ into to enable, Secondary spec slot would be right up there. I would gladly dump 3000 Zen ($30) on that. I'm sure a lot of people would. Heck I would probably buy it at 6K Zen. Good way to keep the lights on I think. Gives the people what they want and doesn't break the game. :smile: It would also help encourage people to spend more on ships. The "I would buy that carrier but then I would have to switch specs and not be able to fly my current ship" would be less. Also I would probably end up buying MORE respect tokens having to keep two builds tweaked to perfection. Win/Win.

    So if we added secondary specs and then dropped the price of the re train token a bit, everyone (Execpt @borticuscryptic, who would have to explain why he committed the dev's to more work) is happy.





  • battykoda0battykoda0 Member Posts: 959 Arc User
    battykoda0 wrote: »
    @battykodao zen, dilithium, and EC are all "convertible currencies" ...

    EC = Contraband (200k for 5) = 2k Dilithium

    That's an exchange rate of 100 EC = 1Dil

    Zen is 300Dil = 1 zen.

    Retrain Token = 500 Zen.

    So in EC your retrain token costs 500z * 300 (dil/z) x 100 (ec/dil) = 15 Million EC.

    It will take One character ~19 Days to refine it, but can be done easily with just rolling a new low level toon, grinding them up to doff level and parking them at the security officer with a fat stack of contraband. I recommend rolling a Klingon. Easier to get up to doffing level and then you can also use them to farm the contraband to lower the cost.

    Now the argument can be made that 19 days worth of refining dilithium is too much for a retrain token... and it's probably a bit steep.. but then we are just talking about price. Cryptic doesn't set the exchange rate. Those float on the market. When zen drops under 200 dill then you are looking at 12 days worth, and it was there not too long ago. But if its still too slow for you, make two or three alts and park them. Goes 2 or three times faster, and still very little effort on the conversion. Ive got 9 toons so I can convert dil/ec fast. I just usually need the EC more.

    I guess what I'm saying is converting ec to dil to zen is possible. The larger complaint I am hearing here is "15 million ec is too much" for a respec. I'm at the point where I can farm either fairly easily so I'm not in a good place to judge if its too much. Probably is.

    However I just thought I would throw you a technique to use to make it easier and clarify the argument. 15 million EC (+ time) is what a respec costs right now.

    Yeah... I'm talking about silver coins garnered from a piece of gray trash that takes about 15ms to grind. It's not a matter of conversion or the time frame to do it. I have a couple hundred thousand dilithium just sitting there doing nothing. The matter is that this is the only MMO in my MMO hop around rotation that charges cash for repecs.
    Well, but it's probably also the only MMO that does other things like it does them. Maybe respecs that you need to buy is the "cost" of releasing all story content for free, or getting endgame ships (which almost no MMO actually has a direct equivalent for in the first place) from an in-game event.

    I dunno. My personal guess is that the issue will end up being overrated. The main reason of a respec will be the same as before - you want to try something new, or optimize a build further.

    Mustrum "Except for me, I'll probably misclick all the time" Ridcully


    VIP and Lifetime will have/get free ones as they level. I leveled a very long time ago. I have a couple left, depending on the toon. They'll have to do.

    They are the only one where the gear is the expansion and the content is free but going with that, they have a LOT more expansions. That is a plus in its own right. Expansion, then, is purely optional.

    They could also make them an item like they do fleet modules and upgrade tokens. I really wish they would reconsider a commit button. We have one now, even adding points the way we do.

    And I'm with you, Mustrum. I'm the idiot who will be on the wrong row of powers. I guess the difference might be that I have decided that 1 mistake only is my rule. I'll just fly with the mistakes after that.
    Wow. There is a new KDF Science ship. I'll be!
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    Borticus did an excellent job of simplifying and explaining the SCORING with this new tree. In other words, the numbers. I give him an A+ on that.

    But totally misses the mark when it comes to simplifying the definitions of the skills. Communicating with language side of things.

    Players are HUMANS and are prone to mistakes.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++

    The skill tree chart is blank, no labels other than the pop ups. Doesn't want to put them in because it is not aesthetically pleasing to his eye.

    The definitions are iffy. OK, use "Star Trek" words....but it does not convey what is going on well enough.

    It will take some deciphering to figure out where "Starship Shield Emitters" and "Starship Shield Systems" from the old tree went to (I believe both of those got split into two different skills in the new tree). I think they did the same with the hull skills. Not good if one is trying to "convert" from Holodeck.

    "Driver Coil" is NOT gone from the tree either. Parts got broken off and shows up in a couple of different locations in the tree. Most notably "Impulse Energy Shunt".

    Matter of fact, it looks like extra speed in Sector space was the only part of "Driver Coil" that we get "for free" outside the skill tree. The turn rate bonus in System space has been tacked on to "Impulse Expertise".

    So, dropping a point in "Impulse Expertise" to put in "Shield Penetration" won't be that good an idea if you expect to be able to turn like you did on Holodeck.

    It is not a small error any more. Dropping the "last point" in the new skill tree takes the performance down 15 points on the skill score in one throw. From 100 to 85.

    (Thank God I been trying things out on Tribble so I can see for myself how it effects me.)

    And of course: no "power cart" abilities.

    You must pick everything perfectly with the first two tries. This tells me they are forgetting that players are not math equations nor are players computer programs.

    You can't just say, "Don't make mistakes"...and expect that result.

    Do you think I intentionally made errors on filling out my skill tree on Tribble so I could come here and tell everyone? No. I did not.

    How many people making errors on Tribble have the mettle to say so? Or even think it is necessary to mention? Because it happens. On Tribble....just click respec again. No big deal.

    How about extending some good will toward your human players and give us a couple of more chances to get it right on Holodeck.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • battykoda0battykoda0 Member Posts: 959 Arc User
    @where2r1, I have been trying to convince my friends that they need to come to Tribble and look a this for that very reason. I have the benefit of being able to park above Qo'nos on both Tribble and Holodeck and compare the choices live as they happen with unlimited free respecs. Come judgment day, they won't have that blessing. I have tried to make notations but I can't conceive of every possible build or preference, let alone my crude cave drawings have changed with patches. Even so, the day it goes live, my cave drawing charts might not match what goes live.

    This is a very major change to the game and can have a significant impact on the unprepared. I don't usually test new content on Tribble but I recognized from the announcement how important it is going to be to not be caught sleeping at your post on this one. I'm very glad I have been on Tribble.
    Wow. There is a new KDF Science ship. I'll be!
  • breadandcircusesbreadandcircuses Member Posts: 2,355 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    battykoda0 wrote: »
    @where2r1, I have been trying to convince my friends that they need to come to Tribble and look a this for that very reason. I have the benefit of being able to park above Qo'nos on both Tribble and Holodeck and compare the choices live as they happen with unlimited free respecs. Come judgment day, they won't have that blessing. I have tried to make notations but I can't conceive of every possible build or preference, let alone my crude cave drawings have changed with patches. Even so, the day it goes live, my cave drawing charts might not match what goes live.

    This is a very major change to the game and can have a significant impact on the unprepared. I don't usually test new content on Tribble but I recognized from the announcement how important it is going to be to not be caught sleeping at your post on this one. I'm very glad I have been on Tribble.

    Heck, I changed my Fleet Message to tell my fleeties to head over to Tribble and check out how these changes will affect them. I'm really hoping a good number have done so, because while it is possible to replicate most builds... when you show up on the 12th to empty Skills it's going to be difficult. I mean sure, they can replicate an entire set of empty Skills very quickly, but without the ability to see their Holodeck build and carry it over to Tribble...

    Hrm, maybe once the Giveaways end I'll update the Fleet Message and tell them to save their build somewhere. Excel and a chart of ratings or pips could work... so would a napkin... does anyone know if STO Academy is updating their Skill Planner right away, or will the "old" version remain available for a week or two? In any case, hopefully they have some record of their build so those of us testing and those in the Academy section can help folks with the changeover.
    Post edited by breadandcircuses on
    Ym9x9Ji.png
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    I do not like Geko ether.
    iconians wrote: »
    With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.​​
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    nikeix wrote: »
    I'd like to make a suggestion that I fear will come off as a bit flippant, but should nonetheless be taken to heart:

    You know the costs of making a mistake, and have already admitted that such mistakes would likely be the result of your own impatience and/or lack of attentiveness. So... don't do that. If you are afraid of the price associated with those mistakes, then slow down, pay attention, and don't make those mistakes.

    Its not flippant, its just not going to lead to a good outcome across the breadth of your customer base. I am not going to TRIBBLE up - I'll have done all the work on a third-party calculator and will have a cheat sheet in hand before I go anywhere near the new panel. I think almost any slow, methodical player will manage to get through it without extreme mishap.

    You tell us - does that describe all of the STO customers you want to keep? Because I doubt that it does.

    I find most goof-proofing twice as tiresome as the next guy, but its still something you have to do if you want broad appeal. Handrails - human civilization does need them. Launching without PowerCart because of deadlines is excusable. Thinking it's not going to come up in a negative way every single day between launch and finally getting it implemented is less so.

    Agreed. It's not flippant. It's just kind of ignoring human nature. And we already know how this will go. This system will be pushed live. And while you've done a ton of work on this, a little detail like how this set up currently works, is going to set the forums ablaze. The feedback here on the Tribble forum is tempered by testers and tempered by free respecs allowed for testing purposes. The feedback you guys get when it goes live will have no such temperance.

    Once the forums are set ablaze, I'm predicting there will be some movement on compensation in some form. Because this is just asking to get slammed.

    You're right, taking your time and being methodical will produce better results. But we all know some people are going to make mistakes.

    That's just life.

    I'll go even further, making a prediction ... the "don't make those mistakes" comment will likely get thrown right back at you in some entertaining form of meme or sig pic the moment a single bug related to this system makes it live. Because you know, pots and kettles and what not.

    ;)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,961 Arc User
    I found in the past that concerns about "won't someone think of the casuals" were usually overblown. Mostly probably because the people on the forums usually aren't anything but casual.
    But we already know that the skill cart can't happen for launch, and Cryptic certainly hasn't missed our feedback that we'd like it. I think it's now inevitably a "wait and see" thing.

    Of course, it can't be underestimated that the whole concept of a mandatory skill respec can be scary for some players, even if the system got easier on some level. If you generally don't respec a lot, it means dealing with something you haven't dealt in a long time, and you had something that clearly worked (maybe it just worked because the game is forgiving, maybe it worked because it was copy & pasted somewhere, or because the person did experiment with it many years ago).
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • lagunadlagunad Member Posts: 198 Arc User
    My first impressions of new skill system:

    Overall, I liked it much more than I expected to.

    A few skills feel under-tuned, and despite the philosophy not giving people bad options to stumble into, I think some still exist.

    At the bottom of the list is Damage Control, a really terrible investment; for 3 space points, I get to regenerate 10% of my hull PER MINUTE in combat? For this to be anything more than a trap for the math-impaired (and a source of respec token sales, I suppose...) the skill needs something else, like perhaps a passive DoT or debuff cleansing chance attached to it, that scales with the skill point level.

    The similar Shield Regeneration skill is better balanced, but the tool tip is contradictory/wrong. It says "Every point of Shield Regeneration skill will cause you to regenerate 1% of your maximum shield capacity every 6 seconds." Putting 3 space points into Shield Regeneration gives you 100 points of Shield Regeneration skill, which would imply you can regenerate 100% of your maximum shield capacity every 6 seconds. It should say either:

    "Every 10 points of Shield Regeneration skill will cause you to regenerate 1% of your maximum shield capacity every 6 seconds," or

    "Every point of Shield Regeneration skill will cause you to regenerate 1% of your maximum shield capacity every minute"

    Assuming the bottom part of the tooltip (3 space points = 10% shield capacity per 6 seconds) is correct, this is a decent skill (exactly ten times better than Damage Control...). Unfortunately, the shield regeneration value shown in the Stats window is still not the correct value.

    I have doubts about the value of the Shield Mastery mini-tree. The crit-cancellation (base skill) is probably OK but not great. I am much less sure that the reflect and shield heal second-tier skills will provide any real value.

    Coordination protocols is a niche skill for the dps leaderboard junkies; at least it's fairly obvious from the description how bad it is for the average player.

    Since there are a lot of other good skills, the only problem with these weak ones is that if you are trying to get to 24-25 points in a given specialization, when there are only 30 available, if 3 of them are terrible, that virtually eliminates any real choices.

    I would like to see my current Shield Hardness, including any cap, displayed in the stats somewhere.

    I'm also really disappointed that you haven't used this opportunity to provide dual-spec capability for captains.
  • illcadiaillcadia Member Posts: 1,412 Bug Hunter
    @borticuscryptic So uh, Tykens Rift is apparently massively nerfed in the damage department on tribble.

    With 477 partigen/478 EPG, you see:
    Holodeck/Tribble
    Tykens Rift 1- 1002.2/496
    Tykens Rift 2- 1252.8/620
    Tykens Rift 3- 1503.4/744

    Might want to take a look at that.
  • lagunadlagunad Member Posts: 198 Arc User
    Can confirm that TR tooltip shows significantly less damage on Tribble with identical gear, skill level and Aux power.

    Trend for other abilities seems to go the opposite way (slightly more damage on Tribble, but not by as wide a margin).

    Possibly the decrease to TR is to balance out the rather large amount of damage added by Drain Infection.
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    illcadia wrote: »
    @borticuscryptic So uh, Tykens Rift is apparently massively nerfed in the damage department on tribble.

    With 477 partigen/478 EPG, you see:
    Holodeck/Tribble
    Tykens Rift 1- 1002.2/496
    Tykens Rift 2- 1252.8/620
    Tykens Rift 3- 1503.4/744

    Might want to take a look at that.

    @borticuscryptic the same goes with DRB:

    Holodeck/Tribble (@ 477/478 EPG)
    DRB1- 1566.1/1240 DRB2- 1996.7/1581 DRB3- 2427.4/1922

    Given how the other skills were adjusted after normalization to match Holodeck numbers, I am wondering if this is intended or not. Will these skills be adjusted?

    Thanks!
  • snicketysnicksnicketysnick Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    lagunad wrote: »
    Assuming the bottom part of the tooltip (3 space points = 10% shield capacity per 6 seconds) is correct, this is a decent skill (exactly ten times better than Damage Control...). Unfortunately, the shield regeneration value shown in the Stats window is still not the correct value.

    This part was reported and confirmed before the patch last week, with a fix working internally, so we should (hopefully) see that fix in the next tribble build.

    http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/1213446/shield-regeneration-skill-bonus-is-not-10-but-1
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    Regarding the perceived drops in damage on Tyken's Rift and DRB... I have a few questions...

    - Are you checking these on characters that have respecced after the most recent Tribble Patch?
    - Were these discrepancies present prior to the most recent Tribble Patch?
    - Is the actual performance of the powers diminished, or is this just a Tooltip issue?
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    Regarding the perceived drops in damage on Tyken's Rift and DRB... I have a few questions...

    - Are you checking these on characters that have respecced after the most recent Tribble Patch?
    - Were these discrepancies present prior to the most recent Tribble Patch?
    - Is the actual performance of the powers diminished, or is this just a Tooltip issue?

    1. Yes, fresh Tribble install, fresh Tribble skill respec.
    2. Yes, though in the case of DRB, the tooltip damage is higher now than it used to be on the first skill revamp iterations.
    3. This I haven't tried (having ping issues at the moment so I couldn't test properly). These are all based on tooltips.
  • samt1996samt1996 Member Posts: 2,856 Arc User
    I thought Tykens rift damage was reduced on purpose because of the enhanced drain?
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    samt1996 wrote: »
    I thought Tykens rift damage was reduced on purpose because of the enhanced drain?

    I don't recall making that statement. As I've said before - performance pre-Revamp and post-Revamp should be similar. Huge variances/discrepancies (up or down) are cause for closer evaluation.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    Stole a quick test of DRB3 @ 362 PrtG (363 EPG) and 130 Aux tested against the first Galor in the Alhena System Mission (Deuterium Surplus).

    Holodeck:
    Avg Dmg/Hit - 9039.79
    Max Crit Hit - 12697
    Min Crit Hit - 7667.93
    Max Non-Crit - 6263
    Min Non-Crit - 4040.3



    Tribble:
    Avg Dmg/Hit - 6,564.02
    Max Crit Hit - 10180
    Min Crit Hit - 6132.6
    Max Non-Crit - 5116
    Min Non-Crit - 3260.95



    Disclaimer: On Holodeck I apparently had Combat Performance Boost for this test. I didn't get a chance to test again without the boost on (I have to talk to a fleet officer before I leave the fleet to retain my rank, etc. and didn't have time to do so). I hope the data still holds though (you can just subtract the damage boost I guess).
  • lagunadlagunad Member Posts: 198 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    Regarding the perceived drops in damage on Tyken's Rift and DRB... I have a few questions...

    - Are you checking these on characters that have respecced after the most recent Tribble Patch?
    - Were these discrepancies present prior to the most recent Tribble Patch?
    - Is the actual performance of the powers diminished, or is this just a Tooltip issue?

    - Only installed Tribble yesterday, copied and respecced then
    - Can't say, see above
    - Actual performance is different.

    I tested vs. Starbase 234, identical builds. I unslotted my Conservation of Energy and Positive Feedback Loop traits to reduce random procs. Aux power at 125, I used nothing on the Starbase except Tyken's Rift III.

    Holodeck:
    1223 tooltip damage
    172,937 base damage
    85 attacks
    2035 base damage/tick
    Average non-crit hit: 634
    Average crit hit: 1341
    Crit rate: 60%
    Character sheet crit chance: 17% + 50% (Particle Manipulator)
    Character sheet crit severity: 88% + 30% (Particle Manipulator)

    Tribble:
    761 tooltip damage
    123,092 base damage
    77 attacks
    1599 base damage/tick
    Average crit hit: 831
    Crit rate: 100%
    Character sheet crit chance: 17% + 50% (Particle Manipulator)
    Character sheet crit severity: 88% + 30% (Particle Manipulator)

    The 100% crit rate on Tribble is unexpected and I don't understand it. My other attacks/abilities seem to crit at a normal rate.

    The ratio of the average crit hit on Holodeck to Tribble is 1.6, which is also the ratio of the tooltip damage.
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    e30ernest wrote: »
    Disclaimer: On Holodeck I apparently had Combat Performance Boost for this test. I didn't get a chance to test again without the boost on (I have to talk to a fleet officer before I leave the fleet to retain my rank, etc. and didn't have time to do so). I hope the data still holds though (you can just subtract the damage boost I guess).

    I thought those Performance Boost things in the Research Lab were broken.
    Are they fixed, now?

    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • breadandcircusesbreadandcircuses Member Posts: 2,355 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    lagunad wrote: »
    Regarding the perceived drops in damage on Tyken's Rift and DRB... I have a few questions...

    - Are you checking these on characters that have respecced after the most recent Tribble Patch?
    - Were these discrepancies present prior to the most recent Tribble Patch?
    - Is the actual performance of the powers diminished, or is this just a Tooltip issue?

    - Only installed Tribble yesterday, copied and respecced then
    - Can't say, see above
    - Actual performance is different.

    I tested vs. Starbase 234, identical builds. I unslotted my Conservation of Energy and Positive Feedback Loop traits to reduce random procs. Aux power at 125, I used nothing on the Starbase except Tyken's Rift III.

    Holodeck:
    1223 tooltip damage
    172,937 base damage
    85 attacks
    2035 base damage/tick
    Average non-crit hit: 634
    Average crit hit: 1341
    Crit rate: 60%
    Character sheet crit chance: 17% + 50% (Particle Manipulator)
    Character sheet crit severity: 88% + 30% (Particle Manipulator)

    Tribble:
    761 tooltip damage
    123,092 base damage
    77 attacks
    1599 base damage/tick
    Average crit hit: 831
    Crit rate: 100%
    Character sheet crit chance: 17% + 50% (Particle Manipulator)
    Character sheet crit severity: 88% + 30% (Particle Manipulator)

    The 100% crit rate on Tribble is unexpected and I don't understand it. My other attacks/abilities seem to crit at a normal rate.

    The ratio of the average crit hit on Holodeck to Tribble is 1.6, which is also the ratio of the tooltip damage.

    How many times did you actually activate the ability? I've noticed that entity based abilities tend to crit on every tick if the ability manages to crit, so it's possible the apparent 100% crit rate is simply that you have a good crit rate and had a run of good luck. I can't speak to the discrepancy in damage output, though.

    Otherwise, your post did remind me: did they ever get entity based damage to benefit from the user's Crit Severity?
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  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    where2r1 wrote: »
    e30ernest wrote: »
    Disclaimer: On Holodeck I apparently had Combat Performance Boost for this test. I didn't get a chance to test again without the boost on (I have to talk to a fleet officer before I leave the fleet to retain my rank, etc. and didn't have time to do so). I hope the data still holds though (you can just subtract the damage boost I guess).

    I thought those Performance Boost things in the Research Lab were broken.
    Are they fixed, now?

    The weekly Combat Performance Boost works. Though the damage boost is pretty minimal, it does give a nice defensive boost.
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    e30ernest wrote: »
    where2r1 wrote: »
    I thought those Performance Boost things in the Research Lab were broken.
    Are they fixed, now?

    The weekly Combat Performance Boost works. Though the damage boost is pretty minimal, it does give a nice defensive boost.

    Thanks for the info!

    Well, they may be minimal, but people noticing it is missing when testing on Tribble, so it is not exactly "nothing to sneeze at" either. I was interested in the boost to run speed...sounds fun.

    When it first came out, there was a problem: it did not last the entire 7 days, it only lasted 2. If it is fixed, I will have to discuss it with the Fleet Leader.

    Though, we may have to go to the Armada for all those Fleet Marks. LOL!

    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • lagunadlagunad Member Posts: 198 Arc User
    lagunad wrote: »
    Regarding the perceived drops in damage on Tyken's Rift and DRB... I have a few questions...

    - Are you checking these on characters that have respecced after the most recent Tribble Patch?
    - Were these discrepancies present prior to the most recent Tribble Patch?
    - Is the actual performance of the powers diminished, or is this just a Tooltip issue?

    - Only installed Tribble yesterday, copied and respecced then
    - Can't say, see above
    - Actual performance is different.

    I tested vs. Starbase 234, identical builds. I unslotted my Conservation of Energy and Positive Feedback Loop traits to reduce random procs. Aux power at 125, I used nothing on the Starbase except Tyken's Rift III.

    Holodeck:
    1223 tooltip damage
    172,937 base damage
    85 attacks
    2035 base damage/tick
    Average non-crit hit: 634
    Average crit hit: 1341
    Crit rate: 60%
    Character sheet crit chance: 17% + 50% (Particle Manipulator)
    Character sheet crit severity: 88% + 30% (Particle Manipulator)

    Tribble:
    761 tooltip damage
    123,092 base damage
    77 attacks
    1599 base damage/tick
    Average crit hit: 831
    Crit rate: 100%
    Character sheet crit chance: 17% + 50% (Particle Manipulator)
    Character sheet crit severity: 88% + 30% (Particle Manipulator)

    The 100% crit rate on Tribble is unexpected and I don't understand it. My other attacks/abilities seem to crit at a normal rate.

    The ratio of the average crit hit on Holodeck to Tribble is 1.6, which is also the ratio of the tooltip damage.

    How many times did you actually activate the ability? I've noticed that entity based abilities tend to crit on every tick if the ability manages to crit, so it's possible the apparent 100% crit rate is simply that you have a good crit rate and had a run of good luck. I can't speak to the discrepancy in damage output, though.

    Due to the time limit on the mission, the ability was only activated ~5 times in each test; what you suggest vis-a-vis one crit check for the whole duration sounds like the only plausible explanation.

    For the test on Holodeck (where there are non-crit hits to compare with) the measured crit severity looks consistent with what is expected (111% observed vs. 118% calculated from stats).
  • lagunadlagunad Member Posts: 198 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    Another thought concerning Damage Control.

    I still see this skill as an outlier, with extremely low value compared to other skills due to the glacial rate of hull regen in combat.

    I suggested giving it a passive DoT cleanse chance.

    Another interesting possibility would be make it reduce the severity of incoming criticals by, say, 5/8.5/10% in addition to the tiny in-combat regen bonus. That is nicely consistent with the flavor of "damage control" and would make this skill more in line with the power of other choices in the same tier.
  • lagunadlagunad Member Posts: 198 Arc User
    The addition of more detail to the skill UI tooltips is a great feature of the revamp.

    As mentioned before, the lack of any UI feedback on Shield Hardness values, and the incorrect display of Shield Regeneration values, are very unfortunate.

    Another item which is extremely important, but missing any guidance to the player, is the "minimum recharge time" now referred to in the "Readiness" skills, which I think is also the duplicate ability recharge time. Why hasn't this been added to the detailed ability tooltips?
  • birzarkbirzark Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    In playing with skill system making different builds, not sure if it was mentioned but i think the accuracy/defense bonus needs to be the 2d unlock on the tree as i feel that has more universal benefits than the critd passives do. Would help tanks that want to focus heavy in engineering and not have to put 20 points into tact to get that extra bonus.

    Other than that after the last round of passives updates look good very positive changes.
  • jodarkriderjodarkrider Member Posts: 2,097 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    Two of my points, Ground only notes from me.
    Passive Regeneration

    The skill has now a description that the effects are disabled in combat. Which defeats the usefulness of the entire skill and I am almost positive nobody will find the skill useful/appealing the way it's currently setup.

    It is nice to have a way to increase the passive regeneration; we did not have this possibility with former skill-tree – BUT, if this is not applied like, 25 – 30% bonus in Combat and 50% bonus applying only out of Combat, there’s not much use for this skill. Zero-passive regeneration bonus in combat from this skill serves little purpose.

    To explain: The entire point of higher passive HP regeneration on Ground is to be able to raise survivability and offset the incoming damage, while you fight the enemies. There is practically no rush out of combat and there are more efficient ways of regaining health out of combat anyways. Simply speaking – You do not need higher passive regeneration when you just stand around and are out of danger. The way this skill is set, it gives little to no advantage to anyone – but, to tanks it potentially could serve well, if this skill grants the bonuses In Combat as well.

    Suggestion: Apply the bonuses of this skill in Combat on Ground as well. Make the final number 25 – 30% in Combat, while retain the 50% bonus Out of Combat.
    Offensive Mastery

    I believe that offensive Mastery should encompas melee as well. By melee in this instance, I mean things like Bite, Lunge, Pounce, or Sweeping Strikes – Not just weapons, as it presently is. There aren't enough abilities to grant boosts to those since 'Combat Specialist' is now an 'Innate' ability. My old kit-frame used to boost it, and now it's boosting weapon criticals I don't even use; so in the end, the efficiency of this skill has diminished.

    There aren’t enough bonuses for melee (unarmed & Kit powers) in the special-skills. That, and we’ve essentially lost damage-potential by Combat Specialist no longer boosting critical hits. This change I believe would offset that, at least a bit and would be also more feasible to implement, given that everyone on the Ground has the same skills/trees, regardless of the career.

    Suggestion: Offensive Mastery: +10 Weapon Proficiency, Combat Specialist, Weapon & Unarmed Criticals.

    Why would you want to boost Combat Specialist?

    Because even with existing possibility to boost stuff like Lunge & Sweeping Strikes, through the skill of "Kit Performance", the values of the damage output are largely diminished. We need ability to boost Combat Specialist through the bonuses again. Things may seem fine on the larger scale, but they are not.

    For comparison.

    Holodeck: Sweeping Strikes: 397, with 'Combat Specialist' at 128ish.
    Tribble: Sweeping Strikes: 339, with 'Innate' Combat Specialist' at 100 & 'Kit Performance' at 128ish.
    Same Personal & reputation setup in both cases.

    The conclusion is, that the way KPerf is setup does not give anywhere near to old value of Combat Specialist of the equal skill number, benefiting these two Kit modules.

    Way to fix it?

    Re-add item modifiers of Combat Specialist. As even the KPerf of equal numeric-value/skill doesn't address the damage drop significantly in these two.
    (As a personal note, I really don't appreciate my original "Combat Specialist" kit-frame bonus, benefitting these two kit-modules being converted to Weapon Dmg/Crits in the revamp. It does nothing to these two kit-modules in particular and thus, no reason to keep the kit-frame once the revamp goes live.)

    Additionally: Currently, kit-frames/items adding bonuses to Weapon damage & Crits are marked as [Melee]. That is misleading at its' best, as it does not encompass ALL meelee abilities. Needs other marker, like [WeaponDmg].
    Post edited by jodarkrider on
    [10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.

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