I kind of like the idea of the Ultimate allowing you to soak up damage, "store" it, and unleash it again.
Someone that highly specced into eng points should be tanky enough to soak damage, and be crippled enough DPS wise to need the damage boost, at least until game meta changes away from pure dps.
I'd suggest the Engineering Ultimate be a two stage ability, stage 1 is generate more threat and gain high extra dmg resists or even damage immunity, stage two unleashed the soaked up damage as a weapons buff.
Something like:
- adds +threat for duration of stage 1
- adds high +all resists to self for stage 1 duration (or maybe even an all damage immunity, like voth shield console, but applied to hull only)
- all damage taken is stored
- on stage 2 activation (allowing user to tactically unleash it when desired, but have it on a timer so they can't keep it stored for ages) all the stored potential is shunted into the weapon systems, giving guaranteed BO, CRF, THY's on all volleys for a period of time (duration perhaps modified by your power levels, allowing you're likely high power levels to play into it), kinda like the singularity core power for Rom toons.
Stage 1 could even be a permanent toggle you can leave on. Upon toggling off a long duration cool down starts but also triggers stage 2.
Could have it so the dmg boost drains weapons system power more than usual but can be maintained as long as power levels remain above 50, which means EPS skills, batteries, EP2W, EPS Power Transfer etc abilities can all play a part in lengthening the duration of stage 2.
Plenty of other suggestions in this thread, but as it stands the engineering Ultimate definitely needs to do more before I'd even consider pursuing it.
So... tie it into "Threatening Stance" then...?
Globloads of +Taunt if Stance is on (and maybe a little Temporary HP), or a little -Taunt and +Damage if stance is off. Simples!
Sounds like the new upcoming Strategist secondary spec really.
One thing I had for a potential ult for engineering is uh, engineers have the ability to get a crapload of power level boosting.
What if the Eng ult was team support based, and did something like say:
EPS Flare
2min cooldown
Active: 20 seconds
Targets: Self and Team
Self: X Electrical damage to enemies within 5km per second for 20 seconds (AoE)
Allies within 5km: X bonus power to each subsystem for 20 seconds.
Allies within 5km: Increase max power cap for each subsystem by 10.
Additional bonus power granted for each subsystem with power over 100.
Extra nodes:
Reinforcing Flare: Allies affected gain +X Temporary Hit Points, and +X Hull Healing skill for duration.
Blinding Flare: Enemies are placated, then slowed for the duration.
Overloading Flare: Deal an additional X% electrical damage to all enemies within 5km upon ability expiry.
This gives an ability that does AoE damage, which is something engineers are weak at, while also allowing support builds to buff allies. It brings the power level well into line with the Science Ult, and the additional nodes provide a number of options for different minded players. The first is pure support, giving allies improved healing for the duration along with THP. The second turns it into a potent CC skill, and the third gives it an extra damage punch upon expiry.
By boosting ally power levels, it lets engineering captains improve their team performance directly, but also encourages team play rather than just straight up ability spam. By bringing it in line with the power level of the Sci ult, it makes the ability- and thus engineering focus competitive with the other abilities.
As an aside, my original character was an Engineer, and while ESP corruption just sort of gets a 'meh' from me, this type of ability as suggested would actually get me to sit up and take interest, because it's actually pretty cool.
The meta excuse is just that. No one actually chasing the DPS is going to chase after those Ultimates. They just arent worth it.
The meta as applied to group DPS may adopt a single ship having Frenzy. The loss to that one ship may be offset by the occasional 5-ship dogpile uber-burst damage during a Frenzy.
An idea for ultimates, why not have it so for your profession you can get it earlier than 25 points. It would give everyone a chance to get an ultimate because right now it seems like a waste of points to get any of them, you have to give up so much to get it. At least this way everyone can get access to the ultimate of their profession at a discount, they would still have the option to get any of them but if your a science officer went after the science ultimate you can get it for 20 points or something. To have it so you can't have more than 1 ultimate if you choose any of them it will lock you out of picking any other.
Kind of defeats the point. The ultimates are there to incentivize over-specialized builds. We've gotten very comfortable in our all-around ships and captains that can fly everything equally well with one click at the ship selector NPC. My Narcine captain won't be getting one - what I need to leverage that ship comes out as a 10/15/21 build to optimize my two bays worth of frigates while being able to hang in the fight as their battle tender. My 'lead the way to victory' Tarantula captain may suck it up and take the hits to survivability to get Frenzy because her core theme is offensive group buffs and the Tarantula has enough native survivability to let me get away with that kind of yellow & blue nodes deficiency. I'm grooming a tactical captain specifically to fly an Annorax, and the idea of probability manipulation is so spot-on flavorful for that I may again take the hit in yellow & red nodes to make it so my Annorax is blasting the field with the science ultimate.
They're not supposed to be easy. The question is are they good enough for how hard they are? Frenzy is sailing through pretty much complaint free. Probability manipulation is meeting some turbulence because it doesn't stack with a ((shakes head in disbelief)) trait that give you +50% CritH/+25% CritD with exotic attacks. Rarely have I seen such a concerted effort to draw the Eye of Sauron to an over-performing trait...
Here the question is what to do on a ship that's functionally a tank? I love buffs and the support playstyle. But I also fly solo sometimes. So to me a 5 man buff is annoying because it'll have to be down-tuned big time because it affects 5 people meaning it'll be hella weaksauce if I'm flying alone. If the Engineer ultimate were to go back to the drawing board and become a buff instead of a damage tool, I'd MUCH rather it be a single player buff with the option to target a teammate with it (sort of like a super-uber Engineering Team ability), so that it can have a higher individual impact and be friendly to solo play.
But really, instead of starting over I think what we have is a fine base that just needs some mindful options: +taunt, +4 km AoE centered on target, things like that.
I'm iterating through some suggestion concepts. Lemme know if any seem interesting.
Things engineers do, mechanically:
Power
Healing
Resistance/Defense
Maneuverability
Damage
Things engineers do in Star Trek:
Run engineering, warp core, warp drive, fusion reactors, maneuvering thrusters, repair, fix, come up with technical solutions to problems, reconfigure deflector to pull off space wizardry, manage transporters, stuff with electricity.
Sci ult affects all powers, substantially boosts damage output- for stuff like AoE
Tac ult grants faster fire rate, nodes for team affect, + damage, -recharge. Affects energy weps only- including AoE.
Engineering ult should do damage. Engineering ult should provide some level of power, healing, res/def/maneuverability.
Engineering Ult should either BE AoE, or affect AoE- except there are no AoE eng powers. Thus, power must be AoE.
Okay. Iterating suggestions. Don't want to tread on existing power toes too much:
EPS Flare - Damage AoE, team power level boost (Already suggested)
SIF Field Extension - Hull heals for duration also grant team THP, and increase kinetic damage output. Nodes to increase damage bonus, thp bonus/duration, heal system offline?
Shield Inversion Pulse - Incoming damage heals % of team shields, adds shield piercing skill. Nodes for increased healing, shield hardness, placate when facing goes offline?
Superfluid Traversal Optimization - Self and Team - +Flight Speed, + turn rate, + torpedo flight speed, +torpedo damage. Build stacks? Nodes for +extra torp bonuses, +self/team bonuses, immunity to hold?
Antimatter Cascade - Warp plasma style power, but deals electrical damage, drains power, and slows. Nodes for wider area, double power drain...
Emitter Cross-Wire - Hull heals heal a small amount of shields and provide a small damage boost. Shield heals heal a small amount of hull and provide a damage boost (for duration). Nodes to increase damage boost, duration?
Convective Shock - Fire a pulse which deals electrical damage to targets in AoE and instantly drains subsystems. Pulse jumps from drained enemies to players, granting instant power boost. Too similar to EPS flare? More random jumping, multiple pulses can jump to a single player? Overcharge power levels?
Trionic Flux - Self and team - Teleport self and each player randomly 3km, +stealth, placate enemies, inflict radiation damage. Nodes for longer teleport distance, radiation damage over time?
_________________________________________________________
Random power ideas (Hi Borticus!)
Name:
Tachyon Surge
Mechanics:
Anomaly (a la Gravwell and Tykens). Strength and Range affected by ControlX. Works mechanically similar to Viral Impulse Burst. Enemies who travel into range are afflicted by the following proc:
Temporal Disjunction - Heading set to random and Teleported 5km in that direction (Maybe with a -10km down component for pvp because map top fighting). Active powers lose 50% duration.
Name:
Subversion Web
Mechanics: Chain power, no targeting required. Affects Mines, Targetable Torpedoes, Fighters. Applies Confuse proc for duration, arcs between up to 10 targets each within 5km of each other. Affected targets receive 'System Overcharge' proc which enables +50% damage, +50% speed, and- for fighters/frigates- enables ramming/kamikaze mode.
Run engineering, warp core, warp drive, fusion reactors, maneuvering thrusters, repair, fix, come up with technical solutions to problems, reconfigure deflector to pull off space wizardry, manage transporters, stuff with electricity.
I like the angle of your deflector. Theme inspires function.
One mechanic that might be incredibly suitable to strongly engineering-leaning captains that I don't think I've seen in this thread is cleansing de-buffs. While I like that we have an attack... a self, self-or-targeted-ally, or team-wide cleanse seems like a way of showing off your far above average fix-it skills.
This thread is shaping up to be another one of those where the suggestions being made don't quite fit what our design is aiming for, but aren't bad designs for other aspects of gameplay. So, again I'm bookmarking it!
The Eng Ultimate is going to undergo a few small adjustments in an upcoming patch, but we're not prepared to scrap it and start fresh this far along in the process. Here are the changes you can expect to see:
* Cooldown reduced to 90sec (this change also applies to Sci and Tac Ults)
* Base DOT damage doubled, and triggered damage doubled.
* "Weakening Corruption" no longer reduces outgoing damage, but instead triggers a stacking energy loss for all subsystems, each time the Triggered damage is applied.
In addition to the above effects, the power now also contains a proc rate reduction that only applies in PvP. If the ability is used on a player, there is only a 20% chance that weapon activation will cause additional damage and applicable effects (instead of the 100% chance it has vs. NPC targets).
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
This thread is shaping up to be another one of those where the suggestions being made don't quite fit what our design is aiming for, but aren't bad designs for other aspects of gameplay. So, again I'm bookmarking it!
It has been a good week for thoughtful discussion .
The Eng Ultimate is going to undergo a few small adjustments in an upcoming patch, but we're not prepared to scrap it and start fresh this far along in the process. Here are the changes you can expect to see:
* Cooldown reduced to 90sec (this change also applies to Sci and Tac Ults)
* Base DOT damage doubled, and triggered damage doubled.
* "Weakening Corruption" no longer reduces outgoing damage, but instead triggers a stacking energy loss for all subsystems, each time the Triggered damage is applied.
All sounds like a move towards a credible piece of bait to lure people outside their more balanced comfort zones. I'm still hoping one of the three upgrades can grant a substantial threat generation boost/multiplier to the basic package.
In addition to the above effects, the power now also contains a proc rate reduction that only applies in PvP. If the ability is used on a player, there is only a 20% chance that weapon activation will cause additional damage and applicable effects (instead of the 100% chance it has vs. NPC targets).
Instead of a fixed value (80%), could we maybe see one of the defender's skills used to reduce the chance of this proc'ing? Maybe Drain Expertise run through something similar to the damage mitigation diminishing returns formula so it tapers off towards a maximum of 80% chance to resist each tick? It could create a little more strategy in the PvP builds. And let yellow node heavy builds really put the slap down on foes who neglect their Drain Expertise .
Instead of a fixed value (80%), could we maybe see one of the defender's skills used to reduce the chance of this proc'ing? Maybe Drain Expertise run through something similar to the damage mitigation diminishing returns formula so it tapers off towards a maximum of 80% chance to resist each tick? It could create a little more strategy in the PvP builds. And let yellow node heavy builds really put the slap down on foes who neglect their Drain Expertise .
None of this is really necessary. The proc rate for PvP was put in because players attack at least 5x as frequently as NPCs. Due to the nature of the way this ability was built, we can't put an actual proc limiter (e.g., "Max X times per X sec"), so this was the best way we could think of to balance the effectiveness of the ability based on NPC vs. Player weapon firing cycles.
It's not a matter of offering counter play for PvP (the counter is cleanse the debuff using Eng Team), but just to bring its performance closer in-line.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
In addition to the above effects, the power now also contains a proc rate reduction that only applies in PvP. If the ability is used on a player, there is only a 20% chance that weapon activation will cause additional damage and applicable effects (instead of the 100% chance it has vs. NPC targets).
That's disappointing. Can at least expect to see a similar change applied to the Sci and Tac ult? Reduce their chance to trigger to 20% from 100%?
EDIT: Ah, didn't see the other post. I suppose that's understandable.
None of this is really necessary. The proc rate for PvP was put in because players attack at least 5x as frequently as NPCs. Due to the nature of the way this ability was built, we can't put an actual proc limiter (e.g., "Max X times per X sec"), so this was the best way we could think of to balance the effectiveness of the ability based on NPC vs. Player weapon firing cycles.
((pauses))
((re-reads Corrupt EPS))
((look of dawning realization))
It's not a matter of offering counter play for PvP (the counter is cleanse the debuff using Eng Team), but just to bring its performance closer in-line.
Gotcha. I get it now. Thank you for the clarification.
... which justifies keeping this ability as a damage-dealer.
You're quite right. I was playing around with this ability on my Fleet Malem torpedo build. I like the fact that (I'm pretty sure) it can be used from cloak (I kept getting knocked out of cloak when I was testing - most likely from enemy abilities, but possibly from this). I certainly do *not* want enemies pinging my little shieldless cloaked warbird as TARGET PRIME if I trigger it, though.
"Back on topic. Destinii is correct."
(Formerly Destinii until the 'Great PWE Forum Shakeup of 2012')
Comments
Someone that highly specced into eng points should be tanky enough to soak damage, and be crippled enough DPS wise to need the damage boost, at least until game meta changes away from pure dps.
I'd suggest the Engineering Ultimate be a two stage ability, stage 1 is generate more threat and gain high extra dmg resists or even damage immunity, stage two unleashed the soaked up damage as a weapons buff.
Something like:
- adds +threat for duration of stage 1
- adds high +all resists to self for stage 1 duration (or maybe even an all damage immunity, like voth shield console, but applied to hull only)
- all damage taken is stored
- on stage 2 activation (allowing user to tactically unleash it when desired, but have it on a timer so they can't keep it stored for ages) all the stored potential is shunted into the weapon systems, giving guaranteed BO, CRF, THY's on all volleys for a period of time (duration perhaps modified by your power levels, allowing you're likely high power levels to play into it), kinda like the singularity core power for Rom toons.
Stage 1 could even be a permanent toggle you can leave on. Upon toggling off a long duration cool down starts but also triggers stage 2.
Could have it so the dmg boost drains weapons system power more than usual but can be maintained as long as power levels remain above 50, which means EPS skills, batteries, EP2W, EPS Power Transfer etc abilities can all play a part in lengthening the duration of stage 2.
Plenty of other suggestions in this thread, but as it stands the engineering Ultimate definitely needs to do more before I'd even consider pursuing it.
Sounds like the new upcoming Strategist secondary spec really.
What if the Eng ult was team support based, and did something like say:
EPS Flare
2min cooldown
Active: 20 seconds
Targets: Self and Team
Self: X Electrical damage to enemies within 5km per second for 20 seconds (AoE)
Allies within 5km: X bonus power to each subsystem for 20 seconds.
Allies within 5km: Increase max power cap for each subsystem by 10.
Additional bonus power granted for each subsystem with power over 100.
Extra nodes:
Reinforcing Flare: Allies affected gain +X Temporary Hit Points, and +X Hull Healing skill for duration.
Blinding Flare: Enemies are placated, then slowed for the duration.
Overloading Flare: Deal an additional X% electrical damage to all enemies within 5km upon ability expiry.
This gives an ability that does AoE damage, which is something engineers are weak at, while also allowing support builds to buff allies. It brings the power level well into line with the Science Ult, and the additional nodes provide a number of options for different minded players. The first is pure support, giving allies improved healing for the duration along with THP. The second turns it into a potent CC skill, and the third gives it an extra damage punch upon expiry.
By boosting ally power levels, it lets engineering captains improve their team performance directly, but also encourages team play rather than just straight up ability spam. By bringing it in line with the power level of the Sci ult, it makes the ability- and thus engineering focus competitive with the other abilities.
As an aside, my original character was an Engineer, and while ESP corruption just sort of gets a 'meh' from me, this type of ability as suggested would actually get me to sit up and take interest, because it's actually pretty cool.
The meta as applied to group DPS may adopt a single ship having Frenzy. The loss to that one ship may be offset by the occasional 5-ship dogpile uber-burst damage during a Frenzy.
Kind of defeats the point. The ultimates are there to incentivize over-specialized builds. We've gotten very comfortable in our all-around ships and captains that can fly everything equally well with one click at the ship selector NPC. My Narcine captain won't be getting one - what I need to leverage that ship comes out as a 10/15/21 build to optimize my two bays worth of frigates while being able to hang in the fight as their battle tender. My 'lead the way to victory' Tarantula captain may suck it up and take the hits to survivability to get Frenzy because her core theme is offensive group buffs and the Tarantula has enough native survivability to let me get away with that kind of yellow & blue nodes deficiency. I'm grooming a tactical captain specifically to fly an Annorax, and the idea of probability manipulation is so spot-on flavorful for that I may again take the hit in yellow & red nodes to make it so my Annorax is blasting the field with the science ultimate.
They're not supposed to be easy. The question is are they good enough for how hard they are? Frenzy is sailing through pretty much complaint free. Probability manipulation is meeting some turbulence because it doesn't stack with a ((shakes head in disbelief)) trait that give you +50% CritH/+25% CritD with exotic attacks. Rarely have I seen such a concerted effort to draw the Eye of Sauron to an over-performing trait...
Here the question is what to do on a ship that's functionally a tank? I love buffs and the support playstyle. But I also fly solo sometimes. So to me a 5 man buff is annoying because it'll have to be down-tuned big time because it affects 5 people meaning it'll be hella weaksauce if I'm flying alone. If the Engineer ultimate were to go back to the drawing board and become a buff instead of a damage tool, I'd MUCH rather it be a single player buff with the option to target a teammate with it (sort of like a super-uber Engineering Team ability), so that it can have a higher individual impact and be friendly to solo play.
But really, instead of starting over I think what we have is a fine base that just needs some mindful options: +taunt, +4 km AoE centered on target, things like that.
Things engineers do, mechanically:
Power
Healing
Resistance/Defense
Maneuverability
Damage
Things engineers do in Star Trek:
Run engineering, warp core, warp drive, fusion reactors, maneuvering thrusters, repair, fix, come up with technical solutions to problems, reconfigure deflector to pull off space wizardry, manage transporters, stuff with electricity.
Sci ult affects all powers, substantially boosts damage output- for stuff like AoE
Tac ult grants faster fire rate, nodes for team affect, + damage, -recharge. Affects energy weps only- including AoE.
Engineering ult should do damage. Engineering ult should provide some level of power, healing, res/def/maneuverability.
Engineering Ult should either BE AoE, or affect AoE- except there are no AoE eng powers. Thus, power must be AoE.
Okay. Iterating suggestions. Don't want to tread on existing power toes too much:
EPS Flare - Damage AoE, team power level boost (Already suggested)
SIF Field Extension - Hull heals for duration also grant team THP, and increase kinetic damage output. Nodes to increase damage bonus, thp bonus/duration, heal system offline?
Shield Inversion Pulse - Incoming damage heals % of team shields, adds shield piercing skill. Nodes for increased healing, shield hardness, placate when facing goes offline?
Superfluid Traversal Optimization - Self and Team - +Flight Speed, + turn rate, + torpedo flight speed, +torpedo damage. Build stacks? Nodes for +extra torp bonuses, +self/team bonuses, immunity to hold?
Antimatter Cascade - Warp plasma style power, but deals electrical damage, drains power, and slows. Nodes for wider area, double power drain...
Emitter Cross-Wire - Hull heals heal a small amount of shields and provide a small damage boost. Shield heals heal a small amount of hull and provide a damage boost (for duration). Nodes to increase damage boost, duration?
Convective Shock - Fire a pulse which deals electrical damage to targets in AoE and instantly drains subsystems. Pulse jumps from drained enemies to players, granting instant power boost. Too similar to EPS flare? More random jumping, multiple pulses can jump to a single player? Overcharge power levels?
Trionic Flux - Self and team - Teleport self and each player randomly 3km, +stealth, placate enemies, inflict radiation damage. Nodes for longer teleport distance, radiation damage over time?
_________________________________________________________
Random power ideas (Hi Borticus!)
Name:
Tachyon Surge
Mechanics:
Anomaly (a la Gravwell and Tykens). Strength and Range affected by ControlX. Works mechanically similar to Viral Impulse Burst. Enemies who travel into range are afflicted by the following proc:
Temporal Disjunction - Heading set to random and Teleported 5km in that direction (Maybe with a -10km down component for pvp because map top fighting). Active powers lose 50% duration.
Name:
Subversion Web
Mechanics: Chain power, no targeting required. Affects Mines, Targetable Torpedoes, Fighters. Applies Confuse proc for duration, arcs between up to 10 targets each within 5km of each other. Affected targets receive 'System Overcharge' proc which enables +50% damage, +50% speed, and- for fighters/frigates- enables ramming/kamikaze mode.
I like the angle of your deflector. Theme inspires function.
One mechanic that might be incredibly suitable to strongly engineering-leaning captains that I don't think I've seen in this thread is cleansing de-buffs. While I like that we have an attack... a self, self-or-targeted-ally, or team-wide cleanse seems like a way of showing off your far above average fix-it skills.
The Eng Ultimate is going to undergo a few small adjustments in an upcoming patch, but we're not prepared to scrap it and start fresh this far along in the process. Here are the changes you can expect to see:
* Cooldown reduced to 90sec (this change also applies to Sci and Tac Ults)
* Base DOT damage doubled, and triggered damage doubled.
* "Weakening Corruption" no longer reduces outgoing damage, but instead triggers a stacking energy loss for all subsystems, each time the Triggered damage is applied.
In addition to the above effects, the power now also contains a proc rate reduction that only applies in PvP. If the ability is used on a player, there is only a 20% chance that weapon activation will cause additional damage and applicable effects (instead of the 100% chance it has vs. NPC targets).
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
All sounds like a move towards a credible piece of bait to lure people outside their more balanced comfort zones. I'm still hoping one of the three upgrades can grant a substantial threat generation boost/multiplier to the basic package.
Instead of a fixed value (80%), could we maybe see one of the defender's skills used to reduce the chance of this proc'ing? Maybe Drain Expertise run through something similar to the damage mitigation diminishing returns formula so it tapers off towards a maximum of 80% chance to resist each tick? It could create a little more strategy in the PvP builds. And let yellow node heavy builds really put the slap down on foes who neglect their Drain Expertise
None of this is really necessary. The proc rate for PvP was put in because players attack at least 5x as frequently as NPCs. Due to the nature of the way this ability was built, we can't put an actual proc limiter (e.g., "Max X times per X sec"), so this was the best way we could think of to balance the effectiveness of the ability based on NPC vs. Player weapon firing cycles.
It's not a matter of offering counter play for PvP (the counter is cleanse the debuff using Eng Team), but just to bring its performance closer in-line.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
That's disappointing. Can at least expect to see a similar change applied to the Sci and Tac ult? Reduce their chance to trigger to 20% from 100%?
EDIT: Ah, didn't see the other post. I suppose that's understandable.
((pauses))
((re-reads Corrupt EPS))
((look of dawning realization))
Gotcha. I get it now. Thank you for the clarification.
You're quite right. I was playing around with this ability on my Fleet Malem torpedo build. I like the fact that (I'm pretty sure) it can be used from cloak (I kept getting knocked out of cloak when I was testing - most likely from enemy abilities, but possibly from this). I certainly do *not* want enemies pinging my little shieldless cloaked warbird as TARGET PRIME if I trigger it, though.
"Back on topic. Destinii is correct."
(Formerly Destinii until the 'Great PWE Forum Shakeup of 2012')