There seems to be a skill description difference between Shield Hardeness I/II and III which may lead to some confusion. Personally I think the one for SH I/II is clearer.
I've been testing on tribble, first with my FED and lately a bit with my KDF.
On my FED, my first character, the old skills probably weren't very properly set up, as they were done while leveling since noob to admiral, and I never used respec (and I never will, with the new system). So, probably, I really won't loose much.
And, because that, I didn't try to clone the exact config with the new skills. I just tried to achieve a config I like and wich I think I can have fun with my science guy.
At first I tried to get the ultimate ability and well, I did. I felt I had to make too much sacrifice and leave some damage out to get them. As, at the time, the gravity wells and so were bugged, It seemed a bad decision. But after the last patch, with the science power kinda back, I was quite OK with it.
But, as much as I like science, I find most of the science ships too ugly to fly with. So I have plenty of cruisers and I was quite OK flying them on holodeck. After feeling happy with my Vesta on tribble, I switched to some of my cruisers and, of course, with the mostly all science config, It didn't work well.
I mean, you can live with it, but makes the decision to go fully science too hard.
So I tried a more balanced setup, still with a science flavour, but totally forgetting about the ultimates.
And, apart form feeling that now that config is a total clone of many others, it didn't work so well, after all. Yes, the cruisers seemed more like before (not totally, probable the config needed some changes, sure), but then I'm pretty sure my science ships are going to loose fun.
I'm sorry I can't provide numbers. It's just my appreciation after playing several times (probably not enought). Sure, changing traits to complement the lack of this and that can help. It does. But we need a kind of loadouts to swap trait configs easily. One space trait config per ship or something... Sure you can't pretend we respec everytime we swap ships.
And, as people already said, going one by one clicking points after respec is a pain. And, if you make a mistake (I did some), well that's not a problem on tribble with free respecs, but would be a big fail on holodeck.
At the end, I think the new system is not too bad, I will survive with it, but these little (or not so little) details like the way you select points need more polish. About the skill system itself, I'm aware is still having a proper tuning and will be better with time, so I can only provide my brief feedback to help a bit.
About ground, I didn't bother to test. My toon had little points at ground, so he kinda sucked, probably, so I won't see any loss. But with so little choices at ground, It looks to me like he's gonna have some lack of personality, as mostly anybody else. It happens on space too, but at ground it's more noticeable, as there are fewer points.
Just my opinion and not sure if it makes sense Hope it helps a bit, tho. And excuse my english.
I've been testing on tribble, first with my FED and lately a bit with my KDF.
On my FED, my first character, the old skills probably weren't very properly set up, as they were done while leveling since noob to admiral, and I never used respec (and I never will, with the new system). So, probably, I really won't loose much.
And, because that, I didn't try to clone the exact config with the new skills. I just tried to achieve a config I like and wich I think I can have fun with my science guy.
At first I tried to get the ultimate ability and well, I did. I felt I had to make too much sacrifice and leave some damage out to get them. As, at the time, the gravity wells and so were bugged, It seemed a bad decision. But after the last patch, with the science power kinda back, I was quite OK with it.
But, as much as I like science, I find most of the science ships too ugly to fly with. So I have plenty of cruisers and I was quite OK flying them on holodeck. After feeling happy with my Vesta on tribble, I switched to some of my cruisers and, of course, with the mostly all science config, It didn't work well.
I mean, you can live with it, but makes the decision to go fully science too hard.
So I tried a more balanced setup, still with a science flavour, but totally forgetting about the ultimates.
And, apart form feeling that now that config is a total clone of many others, it didn't work so well, after all. Yes, the cruisers seemed more like before (not totally, probable the config needed some changes, sure), but then I'm pretty sure my science ships are going to loose fun.
I'm sorry I can't provide numbers. It's just my appreciation after playing several times (probably not enought). Sure, changing traits to complement the lack of this and that can help. It does. But we need a kind of loadouts to swap trait configs easily. One space trait config per ship or something... Sure you can't pretend we respec everytime we swap ships.
And, as people already said, going one by one clicking points after respec is a pain. And, if you make a mistake (I did some), well that's not a problem on tribble with free respecs, but would be a big fail on holodeck.
At the end, I think the new system is not too bad, I will survive with it, but these little (or not so little) details like the way you select points need more polish. About the skill system itself, I'm aware is still having a proper tuning and will be better with time, so I can only provide my brief feedback to help a bit.
About ground, I didn't bother to test. My toon had little points at ground, so he kinda sucked, probably, so I won't see any loss. But with so little choices at ground, It looks to me like he's gonna have some lack of personality, as mostly anybody else. It happens on space too, but at ground it's more noticeable, as there are fewer points.
Just my opinion and not sure if it makes sense Hope it helps a bit, tho. And excuse my english.
I actually took almost the same approach as you on testing the New Skill Tree. To be exact I didn't copy my Holodeck Build and just went to something new.
I had a bit of fun testing it and well some of the bugs are kinda annoying most specially on the sci tree but given time and hopefully the devs listen it would be fixed. But I do have to disagree a bit on the lack of personality of both Ground and Space on this tree. Because after doing another route of testing I find it that this new skill tree's greatest complication is the fact that there needs to be a great amount of consideration on which skills (Not the skill tree really but it's one factor) for BoFF/Doff, weapons/kits, ships and specialization to consider.
One thing I do notice is that the "Glass Cannon Build" is now very applicable and in some scenarios going full tree of your profession has even greater rewards, Provided they actually fix some of the issues and balance them a bit.
So I just made a new copy on Tribble and noticed when I put three points into Weapons Specialization, the crit % in my stat window didn't change. It does change when I turn any crit trait on and off, but the skill isn't showing at all.
Anybody else seeing this?
"Let me guess, my theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and you don't like my tie" - The Doctor
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!" -Agatha Heterodyne
As they have said before if it only affects a certain thing like Weapons or torpedos or science powers it will NOT show in the window. It would be nice if they could design it to separate those stats out but they have their hands full ATM.
BTW sorry but I've been extremely busy so I have not had time to get the numbers on the control powers for Tribble just yet. My preliminary results say that Jam Sensors is still pretty useless (now more than ever) and Scramble Sensors has absolutely rediculous uptimes, i'm talking sixty seconds give or take.
Otherwise everything seems to be in decent shape. Photonic Shockwave for example has 7-12 second disables on ranks 1-3 so I think that's pretty good without being OP. I know my Overwhelming Force starship trait is certainly going to be that much more awesome! Lol
when you say SS has ridiculous 'uptimes', i assume you're talking about the duration the effect lasts? if so, 60 seconds is awesome, but i don't expect that to remain as-is...that's a little TOO long
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
ive just copied my sci char to tribble. with 510 partgen all exotic dmg abilities (tbr, integrity collapse, resobeam) got nerfed around 50%. am pretty upset with this nerf as it renders sci as a dmg dealer useless.
I've seen a net increase, but I don't use the above skills. However I had a similar experience, before I realised that a respec also removes all your space traits including particle manipulator.
all space traits were active and i got 1(!) point more in partgen skill due to getting 100 points instead of 99 out of the skill tree. all other dmg abilities got nerfed 40-50%...
ok now some more details on that, all values are base and without any buffs activated:
holodeck partgen: 506
structural integrity collapse III: 1312
tractor beam repulsors II: 3391
resonance beam III: 3911
isokinetic cannon: 18137
gravity well III: 2224
obviously the fleet combat performance buff is not active on tribble, so isokinetic cannon should be the same.
Wow that sucks. I use GW and subspace vortex and the changes gave positive results. Personally I hate using TBR and RB, the first requires getting and stay within 5km of the target, and the other requires that you to slow or stop completely to get full effectiveness. All this under constant fire.
We should be okay once Bort gets a chance to look into ControlX and EPG...
Much like DrainX powers got a first pass in today's patch, ControlX and EPG will be getting a similar review in the near future. Hopefully by next week's patch, for both. So, feel free to submit feedback on the topic, but please remember that there is still more tuning to be done.
...but hopefully your numbers (along with several similar comparisons in the 1.0 version of the thread) get it sorted out. Personally, I'm just as interested in the things that are missing appropriate application and/or scaling entirely, like the new Control Amplification/Drain Infection effects... but again, at the moment it's wait-and-see with the next build. The numbers samt put up are showing that what we have for DrainX is working closer to what we'd expect, so I'm cautiously optimistic about ControlX/EPG.
As a side note, I was initially concerned that ramping up the base effectiveness of the various Science abilities could be an issue when applied to NPC's, but that does come with a caveat: That is only really going to affect players that hadn't invested in any Flow Capacitors/Power Insulators/Subsystem Repair or Graviton Generators/Inertial Dampeners/Starship Sensors/Subspace Decompiler/Countermeasures. Thanks to rolling the offensive/defensive Science skills together, many of us are going to have better resists from our Skill Tree and much of our equipment is going to offer increased resists over what we're used to. It's still going to be an issue for the PvP community figuring out how to work with/against this, but for the majority of folks in PvE the issue should be offset by an increase in resistance ratings.
when you say SS has ridiculous 'uptimes', i assume you're talking about the duration the effect lasts? if so, 60 seconds is awesome, but i don't expect that to remain as-is...that's a little TOO long
Remember, Confuse/Placate abilities are also broken by incoming damage and Science Team/cleanses... they'll rarely last that long, in PvE because of high player damage and NPC hitpoints and in PvP because players actively counter them.
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
Yeah, Engineers are kind of meh as well. EPS Manifold Efficiency requires the Batteries unlock to maintain its duration, which (oddly) means that Engineers themselves are almost guaranteed to be more vulnerable against Subsystem Offline than other Professions. At the same time, the already mediocre Engineering Fleet no longer buffs hull regen because Starship Hull Repair was broken into Hull Restoration/Damage Control. Add to that an Engineering Ultimate that is pretty much unaffected by anything an Engineer has to offer, and the Profession is a bit less appealing under the new system.
Still, WIP, and we are seeing changes... so we'll see.
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
If I've done my math right you should be able to get around 800-900 base plus crit on top of that. So 2K average would not be impossible which isn't bad since it can have a constant uptime and isn't resisted by most armor.
Drain Infection will see some improvements in a future patch. It wasn't properly scaling with level, for example.
We still have a major UI limitation of not being able to display the exact damage values in the Skill Preview... But I think we may just end up needing to accept that limitation.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
will one of those improvements be an automatic reapplication on targets being affected by a maintained drain, like tyken's rift? (assuming it isn't internally already)
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Not really Tribble-related, since I hadn't been there for a while, but I took advantage of the XP week to level some of my low-level alts on the Holodeck... And, I wished the Tribble system was already there, bugs, accidental and intentional nerfs and all. (well, not really, but you've got my point.)
I'm somewhat experienced, but the current system with its variable point costs just makes it very difficult to plan ahead without some external tool or a cookie-cutter pre-plan, and a chore even then.
I'm constantly thinking "would I have enough points to take all the Admiral-level pips I want?" I under-invest in ground to be sure I won't take any points from space (or vice versa.) The new system on the other hand is far more transparent simply because the numbers are so much smaller and stay constant throughout: 46 points, 1 point every level and a similar system for the ground.
So, at least in that respect, the new system is definitely more friendly, and easier to get right the first time without a respec.
Drain Infection will see some improvements in a future patch. It wasn't properly scaling with level, for example.
We still have a major UI limitation of not being able to display the exact damage values in the Skill Preview... But I think we may just end up needing to accept that limitation.
If that's the case, could you put the ability math in the preview window? So we can look at it, and figure it out for ourselves to give the gist of how it works?
if it works on drain powers PERIOD, that would include shield drain as well, so add tachyon beam and CPB to tyken's and energy siphon - and since tachyon beam is semi-spammable, i could see DI getting constant uptime that way
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Currently the driver coil skill can get boosted by engines and so you can have more power at full impulse. But on tribble you get 25 power in other subsytems if you spec into impluse shunt and without being able to boost that anymore it will take longer for your power to return to normal.
Edit:
Also Dyson core, assimilated engines both say based on driver coil skill in description.
With no skill points in impulse expertise i was at 10.45 warp in sector space with 3 points into it i dropped to 10.44 for some reason.
Where did the skill called "Starship Subspace Decompiler" go to in the new skill tree?
Did it get split up and combined with something else? Or is it moved to the Unlock Bar?
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
LOL I got 70 second uptimes on scramble sensors and I spiked it near 100 seconds with the right abilities. This is just the best thing ever! Tricobalts are about to come back with a vengeance!
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Yeah, Engineers are kind of meh as well. EPS Manifold Efficiency requires the Batteries unlock to maintain its duration, which (oddly) means that Engineers themselves are almost guaranteed to be more vulnerable against Subsystem Offline than other Professions. At the same time, the already mediocre Engineering Fleet no longer buffs hull regen because Starship Hull Repair was broken into Hull Restoration/Damage Control. Add to that an Engineering Ultimate that is pretty much unaffected by anything an Engineer has to offer, and the Profession is a bit less appealing under the new system.
^^ Exactly this!
I still think Hull Restoration and Damage Control should be consolidated again into 1 single skill, as fully speccing into both (in order to lose nothing) has become twice as costly now as a result.
Comments
Hmm, why?!
I've been testing on tribble, first with my FED and lately a bit with my KDF.
On my FED, my first character, the old skills probably weren't very properly set up, as they were done while leveling since noob to admiral, and I never used respec (and I never will, with the new system). So, probably, I really won't loose much.
And, because that, I didn't try to clone the exact config with the new skills. I just tried to achieve a config I like and wich I think I can have fun with my science guy.
At first I tried to get the ultimate ability and well, I did. I felt I had to make too much sacrifice and leave some damage out to get them. As, at the time, the gravity wells and so were bugged, It seemed a bad decision. But after the last patch, with the science power kinda back, I was quite OK with it.
But, as much as I like science, I find most of the science ships too ugly to fly with. So I have plenty of cruisers and I was quite OK flying them on holodeck. After feeling happy with my Vesta on tribble, I switched to some of my cruisers and, of course, with the mostly all science config, It didn't work well.
I mean, you can live with it, but makes the decision to go fully science too hard.
So I tried a more balanced setup, still with a science flavour, but totally forgetting about the ultimates.
And, apart form feeling that now that config is a total clone of many others, it didn't work so well, after all. Yes, the cruisers seemed more like before (not totally, probable the config needed some changes, sure), but then I'm pretty sure my science ships are going to loose fun.
I'm sorry I can't provide numbers. It's just my appreciation after playing several times (probably not enought). Sure, changing traits to complement the lack of this and that can help. It does. But we need a kind of loadouts to swap trait configs easily. One space trait config per ship or something... Sure you can't pretend we respec everytime we swap ships.
And, as people already said, going one by one clicking points after respec is a pain. And, if you make a mistake (I did some), well that's not a problem on tribble with free respecs, but would be a big fail on holodeck.
At the end, I think the new system is not too bad, I will survive with it, but these little (or not so little) details like the way you select points need more polish. About the skill system itself, I'm aware is still having a proper tuning and will be better with time, so I can only provide my brief feedback to help a bit.
About ground, I didn't bother to test. My toon had little points at ground, so he kinda sucked, probably, so I won't see any loss. But with so little choices at ground, It looks to me like he's gonna have some lack of personality, as mostly anybody else. It happens on space too, but at ground it's more noticeable, as there are fewer points.
Just my opinion and not sure if it makes sense
I had a bit of fun testing it and well some of the bugs are kinda annoying most specially on the sci tree but given time and hopefully the devs listen it would be fixed. But I do have to disagree a bit on the lack of personality of both Ground and Space on this tree. Because after doing another route of testing I find it that this new skill tree's greatest complication is the fact that there needs to be a great amount of consideration on which skills (Not the skill tree really but it's one factor) for BoFF/Doff, weapons/kits, ships and specialization to consider.
One thing I do notice is that the "Glass Cannon Build" is now very applicable and in some scenarios going full tree of your profession has even greater rewards, Provided they actually fix some of the issues and balance them a bit.
Anyway just my opinion.
It was fun, indeed
Anybody else seeing this?
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!" - Agatha Heterodyne
Otherwise everything seems to be in decent shape. Photonic Shockwave for example has 7-12 second disables on ranks 1-3 so I think that's pretty good without being OP. I know my Overwhelming Force starship trait is certainly going to be that much more awesome! Lol
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
We should be okay once Bort gets a chance to look into ControlX and EPG...
...but hopefully your numbers (along with several similar comparisons in the 1.0 version of the thread) get it sorted out. Personally, I'm just as interested in the things that are missing appropriate application and/or scaling entirely, like the new Control Amplification/Drain Infection effects... but again, at the moment it's wait-and-see with the next build. The numbers samt put up are showing that what we have for DrainX is working closer to what we'd expect, so I'm cautiously optimistic about ControlX/EPG.
As a side note, I was initially concerned that ramping up the base effectiveness of the various Science abilities could be an issue when applied to NPC's, but that does come with a caveat: That is only really going to affect players that hadn't invested in any Flow Capacitors/Power Insulators/Subsystem Repair or Graviton Generators/Inertial Dampeners/Starship Sensors/Subspace Decompiler/Countermeasures. Thanks to rolling the offensive/defensive Science skills together, many of us are going to have better resists from our Skill Tree and much of our equipment is going to offer increased resists over what we're used to. It's still going to be an issue for the PvP community figuring out how to work with/against this, but for the majority of folks in PvE the issue should be offset by an increase in resistance ratings.
Remember, Confuse/Placate abilities are also broken by incoming damage and Science Team/cleanses... they'll rarely last that long, in PvE because of high player damage and NPC hitpoints and in PvP because players actively counter them.
Still, WIP, and we are seeing changes... so we'll see.
We still have a major UI limitation of not being able to display the exact damage values in the Skill Preview... But I think we may just end up needing to accept that limitation.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I'm somewhat experienced, but the current system with its variable point costs just makes it very difficult to plan ahead without some external tool or a cookie-cutter pre-plan, and a chore even then.
I'm constantly thinking "would I have enough points to take all the Admiral-level pips I want?" I under-invest in ground to be sure I won't take any points from space (or vice versa.) The new system on the other hand is far more transparent simply because the numbers are so much smaller and stay constant throughout: 46 points, 1 point every level and a similar system for the ground.
So, at least in that respect, the new system is definitely more friendly, and easier to get right the first time without a respec.
If that's the case, could you put the ability math in the preview window? So we can look at it, and figure it out for ourselves to give the gist of how it works?
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I guess no one else noticed that this?
Did it get split up and combined with something else? Or is it moved to the Unlock Bar?
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Skill:_Starship_Subspace_Decompiler
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
^^ Exactly this!
I still think Hull Restoration and Damage Control should be consolidated again into 1 single skill, as fully speccing into both (in order to lose nothing) has become twice as costly now as a result.