Y'know... I've said some pretty mean things about about stuff other people like; the old exploration system and the Jupiter-class (old and new) just to name the two biggest ones. But never, never have I had the bull-headed audacity to claim, in any way, that someone who disagreed with my position was a liar as if my opinion was somehow God's own word. People are allowed to like bad things. How else can you explain the fact Adam Sandler still makes movies that sell?
The DR patrols are world-building. Time-wasting, game-padding, grindy world-building, but world-building nonetheless. In that they even have that peripheral tie-in to DR's story, they are already considerably better than the patrol missions that came with launch that were literally just filler. And they're leaps and bounds better than the soupy shoebox full of astoundingly broken content they called "exploration". By virtue of these facts alone, I can't agree that the content is as bad as OP seems to think. Bad, absolutely, but not terrible by any stretch of the imagination.
Sheesh I just don't understand the Admiralty hate. I mean, sure you can't just run in with your Tactical ship, slamming the space bar to get done in two minutes. It...I think I just found the answer...
One of the many Tellarite Goddesses of Beauty!
If there are posts here that do not appeal to you, or opinions you disagree with, the best way to deal with that is to resist the urge to add comments. Instead, engage with the content you like! Don't feed the trolls!
Y'know... I've said some pretty mean things about about stuff other people like; the old exploration system and the Jupiter-class (old and new) just to name the two biggest ones. But never, never have I had the bull-headed audacity to claim, in any way, that someone who disagreed with my position was a liar as if my opinion was somehow God's own word. People are allowed to like bad things. How else can you explain the fact Adam Sandler still makes movies that sell?
The DR patrols are world-building. Time-wasting, game-padding, grindy world-building, but world-building nonetheless. In that they even have that peripheral tie-in to DR's story, they are already considerably better than the patrol missions that came with launch that were literally just filler. And they're leaps and bounds better than the soupy shoebox full of astoundingly broken content they called "exploration". By virtue of these facts alone, I can't agree that the content is as bad as OP seems to think. Bad, absolutely, but not terrible by any stretch of the imagination.
Honestly, I was ok with the patrol missions. They gave a break from the big story and allowed me some smaller scale stories to go on. Patrols are STO's way of killing a bunch of boars, but they made it a bit more interesting.
And for those complaining about how it's grindy? Every single MMO is grindy. That's how they work. If you just got handed everything because you're there, it's going to promote more hate than how patrol missions are "grindy."
One of the many Tellarite Goddesses of Beauty!
If there are posts here that do not appeal to you, or opinions you disagree with, the best way to deal with that is to resist the urge to add comments. Instead, engage with the content you like! Don't feed the trolls!
Alts are enough of a problem as it is - I'm still struggling to get my last one up to 60, and I'm not even going to try to fill up their specializations.
YES.
That's a burden you've decided to take upon yourself and there's no need to rush it.
Alts are enough of a problem as it is - I'm still struggling to get my last one up to 60, and I'm not even going to try to fill up their specializations.
YES.
That's a burden you've decided to take upon yourself and there's no need to rush it.
Why thank you for understanding exactly why I've decided to create eight new characters after DR released instead of focusing all my resources on my single fed character. You've nailed it so perfectly, I can't believe my eyes!
Of my nine characters, only four were created post-DR, one of which came around before I realized just how much of a slog I was in for. (Largely because I already had plans to make him before DR arrived, due to finally getting around to unlocking Remans and feeling quite eager to play the game again.)
Neither the original five nor the sixth one were meant to be anything less than competent (my crappy builds notwithstanding), and the last three were made just so I could get the full Recruit story, not expecting to ever bring them up to spec. Funnily enough, the Recruits hit 60 before the Reman did - the last one, a Vulcan, just got it a couple of days ago, while the Reman is still only 57 because he wasn't exposed to as many XP weekends as the rest of them.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
And for those complaining about how it's grindy? Every single MMO is grindy. That's how they work."
I used to hear the phrase "we've always don't it this way" at work (when the old way was wrong/bad)...I hated it then...it's just as bad when applied to gaming.
While we are revamping things...can this horrid thing be fixed please? First off, I will say I actually like the Delta rising story itself with the Vaadwaur(sp). But that story is pretty much ruined by shoving a patrol mission in between most of the real story missions. Now is a good time to jettison that mechanic. Then you can extend the leveling curve out through the end of the Iconian war arc. Adjust experience as necessary to have people reach 60 at the end of the arc with no xp boosts.
It's obvious the patrol missions were shoved in as a way to slow down progress and extend the story missions, it's time to end that. It does succeed in doing that, but it makes DR suck pretty hard too.
Also...Everquest called from 1999 and they want their lame mechanic back (hell levels).
But but I thought (per Al (Captain Geko) Rivera): "Delta Rising is the best expansion ever, and the players love it..."???
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
And for those complaining about how it's grindy? Every single MMO is grindy. That's how they work."
I used to hear the phrase "we've always don't it this way" at work (when the old way was wrong/bad)...I hated it then...it's just as bad when applied to gaming.
Except it's not a way of doing it, it is the very thing to be done. MMORPGs are about improving your character's stats and gear by playing the game over time. That generally means repeating the same tasks multiple times, otherwise referred to as "grinding," simply because it's impossible the devs to create new content faster than you can play it. Complaining about that is like complaining there's too much driving invoved in a racing game.
If you hate the very premise of a genre, you would do well to consider playing something else instead.
And for those complaining about how it's grindy? Every single MMO is grindy. That's how they work."
I used to hear the phrase "we've always don't it this way" at work (when the old way was wrong/bad)...I hated it then...it's just as bad when applied to gaming.
Except you're wrong and over a century of behavioral studies confirm you are wrong. Games are essentially a Skinner Box. You get rewarded immediately in the Skinner Box. Then you're not rewarded as often, because intermittent rewards actually help retain better than constant rewards.
Grinding is the intermittent reward system. You're not given everything immediately. You see that set bonus and run the same scenario over and over and over again to get the set bonus.
If you're given the entire set immediately, all incentive is lost over the course of time. You just stop doing the activity giving the reward because you already have 100% of the reward. It's a very strange thing in behavioral studies, but it's true.
If you're given unavoidable, uncontrollable rewards you become generally irrelevant. This is not good at all and leads to people stopping their play altogether because nothing they do matters, since they keep getting rewarded. This is also why getting constant participation trophies is bad--your child becomes generally irrelevant to reward systems. Gamers have the same issue--getting constant major rewards paradoxically makes them want to stop playing.
If you're given unavoidable, uncontrollable punishment you become learned helpless. You simply stop doing anything because you cannot control your environment and get punished no matter what you do. This will make people quit the game even more than being generally irrelevant does.
One of the many Tellarite Goddesses of Beauty!
If there are posts here that do not appeal to you, or opinions you disagree with, the best way to deal with that is to resist the urge to add comments. Instead, engage with the content you like! Don't feed the trolls!
But never, never have I had the bull-headed audacity to claim, in any way, that someone who disagreed with my position was a liar as if my opinion was somehow God's own word.
I've seen this kind of thing several times from others on the forums over things that are controvertial. Speaking as though they speak for everyone on the forums, and anyone who disagrees is instantly the enemy and calling them "White Knights" and "Apologists" like its an insult and a way to lower credability when facts are provided by said people who disagree as a counter argument.
... Patrols are STO's way of killing a bunch of boars, but they made it a bit more interesting....
No they didn't. Not by a long shot.
That is your opinion. My statement about them being a bit more interesting (granted not by much) is also an opinion. I believe we need to leave it at that.
One of the many Tellarite Goddesses of Beauty!
If there are posts here that do not appeal to you, or opinions you disagree with, the best way to deal with that is to resist the urge to add comments. Instead, engage with the content you like! Don't feed the trolls!
It also goes to show you, no game mechanic is so bad that you can't find people willing to line up to defend it.
If that is directed toward me, I'd love to see your statement and the research behind it to support your position. Maybe you could sway me to your camp. However, since that is just a veiled attack post, I don't have a good feeling about you presenting scientific research to the conversation.
Please feel free to disprove how an Operant Conditioning Chamber (Skinner Box) doesn't work when it comes to gaming. I'm sure companies would love to see your research on the matter also that completely, 100% disproves operant conditioning chambers.
Unless you offer something substantial, this is the last post I am making to you regarding this matter. Good day.
One of the many Tellarite Goddesses of Beauty!
If there are posts here that do not appeal to you, or opinions you disagree with, the best way to deal with that is to resist the urge to add comments. Instead, engage with the content you like! Don't feed the trolls!
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,596Community Moderator
It also goes to show you, no game mechanic is so bad that you can't find people willing to line up to defend it.
I believe the mindless is typically countered by friendly banter with fleetmates. I know that's what gets me through the grind. There is only so much that can be done by the game itself. ANY RPG will have grind. Even POKEMON has some grind in it! Having a way to work through it, such as talking with friends or even doing it WITH friends, makes it better.
And for those complaining about how it's grindy? Every single MMO is grindy. That's how they work."
I used to hear the phrase "we've always don't it this way" at work (when the old way was wrong/bad)...I hated it then...it's just as bad when applied to gaming.
Except you're wrong and over a century of behavioral studies confirm you are wrong. Games are essentially a Skinner Box. You get rewarded immediately in the Skinner Box. Then you're not rewarded as often, because intermittent rewards actually help retain better than constant rewards.
Grinding is the intermittent reward system. You're not given everything immediately. You see that set bonus and run the same scenario over and over and over again to get the set bonus.
If you're given the entire set immediately, all incentive is lost over the course of time. You just stop doing the activity giving the reward because you already have 100% of the reward. It's a very strange thing in behavioral studies, but it's true.
If you're given unavoidable, uncontrollable rewards you become generally irrelevant. This is not good at all and leads to people stopping their play altogether because nothing they do matters, since they keep getting rewarded. This is also why getting constant participation trophies is bad--your child becomes generally irrelevant to reward systems. Gamers have the same issue--getting constant major rewards paradoxically makes them want to stop playing.
If you're given unavoidable, uncontrollable punishment you become learned helpless. You simply stop doing anything because you cannot control your environment and get punished no matter what you do. This will make people quit the game even more than being generally irrelevant does.
/rolls eyes
even hauling out pseudo intellectualism to defend bad design.
And for those complaining about how it's grindy? Every single MMO is grindy. That's how they work."
I used to hear the phrase "we've always don't it this way" at work (when the old way was wrong/bad)...I hated it then...it's just as bad when applied to gaming.
Except it's not a way of doing it, it is the very thing to be done. MMORPGs are about improving your character's stats and gear by playing the game over time. That generally means repeating the same tasks multiple times, otherwise referred to as "grinding," simply because it's impossible the devs to create new content faster than you can play it. Complaining about that is like complaining there's too much driving invoved in a racing game.
If you hate the very premise of a genre, you would do well to consider playing something else instead.
Read it a few more times, maybe you'll understand why "we've always done it this way" is one of the most wrong headed concepts ever.
If there are posts here that do not appeal to you, or opinions you disagree with, the best way to deal with that is to resist the urge to add comments. Instead, engage with the content you like! Don't feed the trolls!
I considered dragging out some of my most brutal personal insults but decided it wasn't worth my effort. Instead I'm enjoying watching him make a complete TRIBBLE of himself to the community, keep it up and he'll ban himself without any help from me.
I considered dragging out some of my most brutal personal insults but decided it wasn't worth my effort. Instead I'm enjoying watching him make a complete TRIBBLE of himself to the community, keep it up and he'll ban himself without any help from me.
If you drag out insults, then you get banned and the people in question claim victory. Which may be precisely what they're trying for.
I believe you have made the best choice.
One of the many Tellarite Goddesses of Beauty!
If there are posts here that do not appeal to you, or opinions you disagree with, the best way to deal with that is to resist the urge to add comments. Instead, engage with the content you like! Don't feed the trolls!
And for those complaining about how it's grindy? Every single MMO is grindy. That's how they work."
I used to hear the phrase "we've always don't it this way" at work (when the old way was wrong/bad)...I hated it then...it's just as bad when applied to gaming.
Except it's not a way of doing it, it is the very thing to be done. MMORPGs are about improving your character's stats and gear by playing the game over time. That generally means repeating the same tasks multiple times, otherwise referred to as "grinding," simply because it's impossible the devs to create new content faster than you can play it. Complaining about that is like complaining there's too much driving invoved in a racing game.
If you hate the very premise of a genre, you would do well to consider playing something else instead.
Is that so?
One of these days I should consider pulling out a few quotes about what really made SWG, it might prove educational. (Of course, one would have to ignore the things that made that game bad, because the bad outweighed the good as time passed, but whatever.)
WoW may have started the tradition of eternal self-improvement, but it's games like Galaxies that really found 'the premise' of the genre - multiplayer, interacting with other people, shaping the environment. (Two of those three are spelled out in the name - and the third is a good asset here - or has the meaning of the acronym 'MMO' changed since I last heard about it?)
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
And for those complaining about how it's grindy? Every single MMO is grindy. That's how they work."
I used to hear the phrase "we've always don't it this way" at work (when the old way was wrong/bad)...I hated it then...it's just as bad when applied to gaming.
Except it's not a way of doing it, it is the very thing to be done. MMORPGs are about improving your character's stats and gear by playing the game over time. That generally means repeating the same tasks multiple times, otherwise referred to as "grinding," simply because it's impossible the devs to create new content faster than you can play it. Complaining about that is like complaining there's too much driving invoved in a racing game.
If you hate the very premise of a genre, you would do well to consider playing something else instead.
Is that so?
One of these days I should consider pulling out a few quotes about what really made SWG, it might prove educational. (Of course, one would have to ignore the things that made that game bad, because the bad outweighed the good as time passed, but whatever.)
WoW may have started the tradition of eternal self-improvement, but it's games like Galaxies that really found 'the premise' of the genre - multiplayer, interacting with other people, shaping the environment. (Two of those three are spelled out in the name - and the third is a good asset here - or has the meaning of the acronym 'MMO' changed since I last heard about it?)
Lot's of people try to claim THEIR definition is the only definition of MMO.
Some of the most obvious and ones that cause many a flamewar.
"MMO means forced grouping"
"MMO's must have 'raids'"
Which is dumb, MMO means "Massive Multiplayer Online"
The only thing there is lots of people and online. You have to squint pretty hard to see anything about forced grouping and raids in that.
Jokes aside, 'multiplayer' does tend to imply some kind of interaction between players, presumably something more than "oh look, people are flying around me!". The sad part is, I'd immediately say "neither of those interpretations are part of mine", but then I'd have to remember that SWG was supposed to be 'subtly unsubtle' about wanting people to team up for the really big stuff.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Lot's of people try to claim THEIR definition is the only definition of MMO.
The only one that's done this is you.
You have posted your opinion, no one said it wasn't valid but some people have a different opinion and you have continually attacked those posters and questioned their motives and mental capacity simply because they don't share your view.
Personally, I actually share your view, I think the Patrol Missions should be removed from the story line. I'm behind the idea 100%, but that doesn't mean that anyone that disagrees with me is 'wrong.' Our side of this is simply our opinion and you refuse to accept it. You proceed from the stand point that your side of the argument is a documented, irrefutable fact and it's not. The only one in this entire thread trying to cause a flamewar is you.
I think you're actually right here, but your argument would come off a lot more respectable if you stopped bashing everyone that thinks differently from you.
Comments
The DR patrols are world-building. Time-wasting, game-padding, grindy world-building, but world-building nonetheless. In that they even have that peripheral tie-in to DR's story, they are already considerably better than the patrol missions that came with launch that were literally just filler. And they're leaps and bounds better than the soupy shoebox full of astoundingly broken content they called "exploration". By virtue of these facts alone, I can't agree that the content is as bad as OP seems to think. Bad, absolutely, but not terrible by any stretch of the imagination.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
If there are posts here that do not appeal to you, or opinions you disagree with, the best way to deal with that is to resist the urge to add comments. Instead, engage with the content you like! Don't feed the trolls!
Honestly, I was ok with the patrol missions. They gave a break from the big story and allowed me some smaller scale stories to go on. Patrols are STO's way of killing a bunch of boars, but they made it a bit more interesting.
And for those complaining about how it's grindy? Every single MMO is grindy. That's how they work. If you just got handed everything because you're there, it's going to promote more hate than how patrol missions are "grindy."
If there are posts here that do not appeal to you, or opinions you disagree with, the best way to deal with that is to resist the urge to add comments. Instead, engage with the content you like! Don't feed the trolls!
YES.
That's a burden you've decided to take upon yourself and there's no need to rush it.
Why thank you for understanding exactly why I've decided to create eight new characters after DR released instead of focusing all my resources on my single fed character. You've nailed it so perfectly, I can't believe my eyes!
Of my nine characters, only four were created post-DR, one of which came around before I realized just how much of a slog I was in for. (Largely because I already had plans to make him before DR arrived, due to finally getting around to unlocking Remans and feeling quite eager to play the game again.)
Neither the original five nor the sixth one were meant to be anything less than competent (my crappy builds notwithstanding), and the last three were made just so I could get the full Recruit story, not expecting to ever bring them up to spec. Funnily enough, the Recruits hit 60 before the Reman did - the last one, a Vulcan, just got it a couple of days ago, while the Reman is still only 57 because he wasn't exposed to as many XP weekends as the rest of them.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
I used to hear the phrase "we've always don't it this way" at work (when the old way was wrong/bad)...I hated it then...it's just as bad when applied to gaming.
But but I thought (per Al (Captain Geko) Rivera): "Delta Rising is the best expansion ever, and the players love it..."???
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
If you hate the very premise of a genre, you would do well to consider playing something else instead.
Except you're wrong and over a century of behavioral studies confirm you are wrong. Games are essentially a Skinner Box. You get rewarded immediately in the Skinner Box. Then you're not rewarded as often, because intermittent rewards actually help retain better than constant rewards.
Grinding is the intermittent reward system. You're not given everything immediately. You see that set bonus and run the same scenario over and over and over again to get the set bonus.
If you're given the entire set immediately, all incentive is lost over the course of time. You just stop doing the activity giving the reward because you already have 100% of the reward. It's a very strange thing in behavioral studies, but it's true.
If you're given unavoidable, uncontrollable rewards you become generally irrelevant. This is not good at all and leads to people stopping their play altogether because nothing they do matters, since they keep getting rewarded. This is also why getting constant participation trophies is bad--your child becomes generally irrelevant to reward systems. Gamers have the same issue--getting constant major rewards paradoxically makes them want to stop playing.
If you're given unavoidable, uncontrollable punishment you become learned helpless. You simply stop doing anything because you cannot control your environment and get punished no matter what you do. This will make people quit the game even more than being generally irrelevant does.
If there are posts here that do not appeal to you, or opinions you disagree with, the best way to deal with that is to resist the urge to add comments. Instead, engage with the content you like! Don't feed the trolls!
I've seen this kind of thing several times from others on the forums over things that are controvertial. Speaking as though they speak for everyone on the forums, and anyone who disagrees is instantly the enemy and calling them "White Knights" and "Apologists" like its an insult and a way to lower credability when facts are provided by said people who disagree as a counter argument.
Been on the recieving end a couple times.
That is your opinion. My statement about them being a bit more interesting (granted not by much) is also an opinion. I believe we need to leave it at that.
If there are posts here that do not appeal to you, or opinions you disagree with, the best way to deal with that is to resist the urge to add comments. Instead, engage with the content you like! Don't feed the trolls!
It also goes to show you, no game mechanic is so bad that you can't find people willing to line up to defend it.
If that is directed toward me, I'd love to see your statement and the research behind it to support your position. Maybe you could sway me to your camp. However, since that is just a veiled attack post, I don't have a good feeling about you presenting scientific research to the conversation.
Please feel free to disprove how an Operant Conditioning Chamber (Skinner Box) doesn't work when it comes to gaming. I'm sure companies would love to see your research on the matter also that completely, 100% disproves operant conditioning chambers.
Unless you offer something substantial, this is the last post I am making to you regarding this matter. Good day.
If there are posts here that do not appeal to you, or opinions you disagree with, the best way to deal with that is to resist the urge to add comments. Instead, engage with the content you like! Don't feed the trolls!
I believe the mindless is typically countered by friendly banter with fleetmates. I know that's what gets me through the grind. There is only so much that can be done by the game itself. ANY RPG will have grind. Even POKEMON has some grind in it! Having a way to work through it, such as talking with friends or even doing it WITH friends, makes it better.
/rolls eyes
even hauling out pseudo intellectualism to defend bad design.
Read it a few more times, maybe you'll understand why "we've always done it this way" is one of the most wrong headed concepts ever.
http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5-creepy-ways-video-games-are-trying-to-get-you-addicted.html
Pretty informative stuff.
If there are posts here that do not appeal to you, or opinions you disagree with, the best way to deal with that is to resist the urge to add comments. Instead, engage with the content you like! Don't feed the trolls!
If you drag out insults, then you get banned and the people in question claim victory. Which may be precisely what they're trying for.
I believe you have made the best choice.
If there are posts here that do not appeal to you, or opinions you disagree with, the best way to deal with that is to resist the urge to add comments. Instead, engage with the content you like! Don't feed the trolls!
Is that so?
One of these days I should consider pulling out a few quotes about what really made SWG, it might prove educational. (Of course, one would have to ignore the things that made that game bad, because the bad outweighed the good as time passed, but whatever.)
WoW may have started the tradition of eternal self-improvement, but it's games like Galaxies that really found 'the premise' of the genre - multiplayer, interacting with other people, shaping the environment. (Two of those three are spelled out in the name - and the third is a good asset here - or has the meaning of the acronym 'MMO' changed since I last heard about it?)
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Lot's of people try to claim THEIR definition is the only definition of MMO.
Some of the most obvious and ones that cause many a flamewar.
"MMO means forced grouping"
"MMO's must have 'raids'"
Which is dumb, MMO means "Massive Multiplayer Online"
The only thing there is lots of people and online. You have to squint pretty hard to see anything about forced grouping and raids in that.
Jokes aside, 'multiplayer' does tend to imply some kind of interaction between players, presumably something more than "oh look, people are flying around me!". The sad part is, I'd immediately say "neither of those interpretations are part of mine", but then I'd have to remember that SWG was supposed to be 'subtly unsubtle' about wanting people to team up for the really big stuff.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
The only one that's done this is you.
You have posted your opinion, no one said it wasn't valid but some people have a different opinion and you have continually attacked those posters and questioned their motives and mental capacity simply because they don't share your view.
Personally, I actually share your view, I think the Patrol Missions should be removed from the story line. I'm behind the idea 100%, but that doesn't mean that anyone that disagrees with me is 'wrong.' Our side of this is simply our opinion and you refuse to accept it. You proceed from the stand point that your side of the argument is a documented, irrefutable fact and it's not. The only one in this entire thread trying to cause a flamewar is you.
I think you're actually right here, but your argument would come off a lot more respectable if you stopped bashing everyone that thinks differently from you.