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Single cannons over Beam arrays
omega273
Member Posts: 4 Arc User
in The Academy
Hi
I have a Benthan Assault cruiser. Its pretty maneuverable (base turn of 10.5) I run it with 4 standard single cannons and 4 turrets.
Its maneuverable enough that i can keep all targets in my front 180 degree arc.
I have 2 tactical officers, both with cannon rapid fire - you can chain the rapid fire almost continually (4 sec-ish cooldown between activations)
As far as i know 'Rapid fire' effects all cannon type weapons at the same time - giving me a significant rof increase for all 8 weapons.
BUT
People keep telling me to switch to beam arrays?? WHY?
Maybe i am missing something but i can see no reason to replace my cannons with beam arrays - its a straight damage nerf to my build. Then add in the bonus from my rapid fire chaining and i just cant see it.
I know beams have a higher dps than turrets but it is only 8 dps more once when you factor in chaining rapid fire. Rapid fire 1 = 30% damage boost, Rapid fire 2 = 40% damage boost - when you consider the 4-5 sec cooldown between activations its a constant 30% boost, so long as i stay on top of it.)
Base numbers:
Cannon dps is 324 (+ 30% avg rapid fire boost = 421)
Beam array dps is 270
Turret dps is 202 (+ 30% avg rapid fire boost = 262)
Can someone more clued up explain why i dont see more cannon and turret builds?
Rick
I have a Benthan Assault cruiser. Its pretty maneuverable (base turn of 10.5) I run it with 4 standard single cannons and 4 turrets.
Its maneuverable enough that i can keep all targets in my front 180 degree arc.
I have 2 tactical officers, both with cannon rapid fire - you can chain the rapid fire almost continually (4 sec-ish cooldown between activations)
As far as i know 'Rapid fire' effects all cannon type weapons at the same time - giving me a significant rof increase for all 8 weapons.
BUT
People keep telling me to switch to beam arrays?? WHY?
Maybe i am missing something but i can see no reason to replace my cannons with beam arrays - its a straight damage nerf to my build. Then add in the bonus from my rapid fire chaining and i just cant see it.
I know beams have a higher dps than turrets but it is only 8 dps more once when you factor in chaining rapid fire. Rapid fire 1 = 30% damage boost, Rapid fire 2 = 40% damage boost - when you consider the 4-5 sec cooldown between activations its a constant 30% boost, so long as i stay on top of it.)
Base numbers:
Cannon dps is 324 (+ 30% avg rapid fire boost = 421)
Beam array dps is 270
Turret dps is 202 (+ 30% avg rapid fire boost = 262)
Can someone more clued up explain why i dont see more cannon and turret builds?
Rick
0
Comments
The one thing which beam arrays have over cannons is that cannons have a significant damage drop off at range while beam arrays are significantly less troubled by this drop off. With a DBB at front one can also get a nice spike damage with a BO.
Then there is BFAW which is by far the most effective ability in the game for the current NPC spam meta.
Bottom line is single cannons are viable, but they do take a bit more skill to use properly.
Edit:
You may also be interested in this topic about a turret build.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1210387/nothing-but-turrets/p1
Some people also made a SC/turret build and parsed pretty high numbers.
- damage fall off at range
- worse crafting trait
- officer skills are +1 seat level (faw1 is ensign, csv1 is lt, etc)
- aoe is smaller cone and less effective due to falloff at range
- turrets worse than the triple 360 array setups for aft
- 4 single cannons and 4 turrets worse than 8 arrays in dps
- harder to aim and stay on target (not bad for single cannons, but single cannon dps is too low and its still harder than broadsiding)
- cannons harder to use pedal 2 metal effectively due to short range issue *again* Its not hard to fly in circles with FAW at full speed... Its much harder to fly in a straight line without passing the victims.
- BO3 > CRF .. one shot the target, or pound on it for several seconds
- cannon shots have travel time.
I probably missed a few more.
That isnt saying they are not viable. I have cannon ships, and enjoy them (though I never botherd with singles). My benthan is a DBB/360 setup, though -- higher dps than broadside. The HIGH dps potential of the game makes an 8 TURRET build "viable" in even hard PVE if you are very well built; you can still pull 20, 30k dps with something like THAT, and obviously better with singles or dual cannons. Its not a question of viable. Its a question of "which is better" and beams have too many advantages vs cannons.
If you want to use cannons, go with Dual or Dual Heavy's
However, if you ask me you should play with the weapons and build you want. You should tailor your build to how you intend to fly and how you enjoy flying. Damage and DPS are important, yes... but enjoying the game and your ship are more important. For example, I prefer massive ships, flying at near 100 impulse speed "in combat", outflying torpedos and seeing my enemies miss hitting me like crazy. With this combination of my personal preference I need to use beam arrays because large ships generally do not turn well. While I do broadside as most people doI negated the boredom of doing so by introducing high speed and default escort like turn rate to massive ships in order to get more fun out of my way of flying. If I were to use a smaller ship like the super nimble escorts I bet cannons would be super fun and still extremely viable. I probably would if it weren't for my liking massive ships.
So yes... fly what you prefer is what I say. You may do less damage in STFs but you are not there to satisfy other players. You are there to satisify your own gameplay and session of STO. There is no reason to be afraid of underperforming for the sake of others... Any ship and any build is viable for solo missions and events. Hell they are even viable in STFs if the team can handle all the objectives. All that may happen with different builds is that the STFs take a little longer. It is not like the world would end... but your enjoyment in playing STO would probably plummet if you were to play in a way you did not enjoy and like.
No, they are not.
Single cannons are actually quite potent if used correctly.
Their use requires a divergent line of thought.
Single cannons have a lesser firing arc than beam arrays, have a restriction for only the front slots and suffer from the damage drop off. This in addition to the fact that there are no tactical powers for cannons at ensign level.
However cannons have a higher rate of fire than beam arrays. When combined with damage types with damaging secondary effects like bio-molecular or the xindi weapons AND with the plasma explosion consoles this brings massive amounts of pain for whoever is on the receiving end.
It's the same idea when making a full turret build work.
Single cannons, like any cannon, does require more skill to make it work but they are not vendor trash.
People recommend that you use beam weapons on your cruiser because in the worst situation you will only be able to fire 4 weapons, but in the base case scenario (broadsides) you can fire all 8 weapons (assuming no torpedoes). If you were immobilized by a tractor beam in a ship using cannons and turrets, then in the worst case scenario you will only be able to use turrets. On the other hand with beam weapons at worse you will only be able to use half of your beam weapons. From a damage perspective beams will do more damage than turrets.
At the end of the day you should do whatever you want as long as it gets the job done and it does not drag down the rest of the team; like bringing a 8k DPS ship into an Elite STF. Of my 9 toons all but 7 use beam weapons, but that will drop down to 6 toons because I am transitioning one of them to a torpedo build.
It is ugly as TRIBBLE and flies backwards, but is basically an Excelsior. An EXCELLENT ship. So much so in fact dont even mess with cannons. Just get some random mishmosh of beams and start firing away. You would find a rainbow build will do better than single cannons, sadly.
Good times. Sadly the videos in the old "The Hakaishin Dreadnought" topic don't work or are private.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1073661/the-hakaishin-dreadnought/p1
Used a build inspired by that for a long time on a dread cruiser and support cruiser with good effects.
Sure with the new reputation, heavy turrets etc the basic build is a bit outdated but it is still more than sufficient in any PVE content. Update & upgrade it and it will probably do well in PVP as well.
Umm... 4 cannons and 4 turrets = 4*(324+202) = 2104 fore dps. While 4 fore BAs are 1080. Not sure where the /2 is coming from unless you are using that for energy consumption dps reduction?
So IF you can keep your front 180 on target all the time, 4 cannons/turrets will do more fore damage.
But most cruisers/sci ships like broadsides and then the 8 BAs win with 2160.
Honestly, single cannons would be greatly helped if cannon powers weren't set at Lt. and higher boff powers. I never understood the reasoning (if there was any) for that decision.
Most such ships have at least 5 weapons forward and aft (one omni fore, and a second one aft). Some run a cutting beam as well, making it 6 fore, and a few people run it with 2+kcb omnis aft, for a total of 7 up front.
And you factor in being more than 3k away from some targets, the cannon dps becomes lower at a scary rate due to dropoff.
And most BA ships broadside anyway, making the above just for out of position faw targets.
For now, if you're using single cannons, stick with them. No one can stop you from having fun. The only thing you need to worry about is like everyone said, the damage drop-off at >5 km. In all my cannon builds, I simply zoom in and get close to the target, fire everything, then zoom out when they explode. At the end of the day, isn't that what beams and cannons alike are trying to accomplish?
Since they will change the drop-off to be equal with beams and cannons and that new sensor skill will work on both, there will be no difference at that point.
The problem with single cannons is that the rate of fire is higher that beams. The DPS shown for the weapon is spread out over more shots than it is for beams which means each shot has less damage per shot and still has to make it past the same value of resistances. The actual damage that is scored to the shields/hull ends up being less for a higher rate of fire weapon.
Where the sc/turret build rocks is critting and proccing but ever since they nerfed phaser procs, sc/turret builds arent as effective.
I'm pretty sure this is 100% wrong. Resistance applies a percentage reduction to damage, not a flat amount per hit; hence the size of the damage packet would make no difference to dps. If this weren't true, then things like plasma dots would do no damage at all.
I thought this was a pretty good list. I would like to add some counterpoint in favor of cannons, but beams are likely still better, at least until the revamp.
- As mentioned, the cannon damage drop off at range will be fixed with "Long Range Targeting Sensors" in the skills revamp
- Yes, the wide arc crafting trait is worse than omni-directional, but crafted cannons can get [CrtD]x3
- The +1 level BOFF seating with cannons allows you to slot both Scatter Volley III and Torpedo Spread III on a single commander seat
- Yes, BFAW is better than SV in every way except for proc chance
- Turrets are better than triple 360's at a few things, such as destroying targetable projectiles (More shots at it per sec) and triggering procs (Weapon type procs, critical hits and all the traits that trigger upon them, plasma console damage, radiant detonation space trait, and Omega graviton amplifer space trait).
- Staying on target and using Pedal 2 Metal effectively are definately easier with beams. However, the pilot escorts can prolong their attack runs with Pedal 2 Metal by closing to point blank and then reversing out. Alternatively, you can use "Anchored" (A lockbox space trait that gives a damage bonus for staying still) instead of Pedal 2 Metal on your cannon builds. However, neither of these are as simple or safe as turing in circles at full throttle.
My only counter to any of that is crafted beams also get critdx3. Thats irrelevant to either type.
The resistance per shot is something I have observed when running beams and single cannons at the same time, the cannons would flow really pittiful numbers in comparison, even when running the same energy type, sitting at close range to a stationary target.
Was referring to crafted Omni-directional beams vs Wide Arc DHCs. I have never seen a crafted 360 beam with more than one randomized proc.
oh. Yea, thats true. But the 360 beam is useful, as it adds a forward shooting gun in the back. The wide arc is kinda meh, as it just lets you hit with 1 fore and your turrets when out of position. Might finish something off once in a while, but not as generally handy.