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Skill System Revamp

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    hajmyishajmyis Member Posts: 405 Arc User
    mmps1 wrote: »
    Yeah if they're one after the other on the same track that's fine. If they are split up so say flow is on three different parts of the eng track then that's a different kettle of fish. Cheers.

    They will be on the same track
    "Frankly, not sure why you're on a one man nerf campaign. "
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    sgtfloydpepper#7911 sgtfloydpepper Member Posts: 1,111 Arc User
    > @hajmyis said:
    > It works as if you click it, you own it. But you can read the tool tip first before you click.

    I guess I'm gonna have to spend A LOT of time on tribble to get this just right. >_>
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    hajmyishajmyis Member Posts: 405 Arc User
    > @hajmyis said:
    > It works as if you click it, you own it. But you can read the tool tip first before you click.

    I guess I'm gonna have to spend A LOT of time on tribble to get this just right. >_>

    Right, and I am sure there will be on youtube video guides. And remember this goes live in season 11.5 in the spring, so there is ampule time for every one to try and play around on tribble
    "Frankly, not sure why you're on a one man nerf campaign. "
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    sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    The single tree that 99% of people will use will be posted soon. Not Sure is on the job!
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    kcansur7kcansur7 Member Posts: 52 Arc User
    I really hope the bugs get ironed out completely before release, because I still remember the hell of the previous revamps, and getting automatically respec'ed whenever there was a change.
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    sch3ff3lsch3ff3l Member Posts: 118 Bug Hunter
    skillz being revamped... i getting Ragnarok online renewal flashback... no... god pls no... no... no... nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo....
    9gagger, starfleet captain, bug hunter...




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    alcyoneserenealcyoneserene Member Posts: 2,413 Arc User
    Sorry that I have to admit it but given past experience with the administration of this product I also have a lack of confidence that this change will be made without major problems. [...]

    They can't fix Kemo use - it lagged for months and now seems nerfed to the ground.

    They couldn't fix Cannon procs, so they removed their ability to proc altogether.

    They introduced dry docking, then attempted fixes to it which removed the workarounds which left some people stuck in shuttles - a fleet member still has no access to their Vesta, now imagine if that was a char bound ship.

    They couldn't get Warp Core power reroutes to work on quality upgrades and so had to change all of our warp cores.

    The upgrade system was a landmine to use, and for a long time. People lost big on that, and the rest of us who knew not to touch it after the 'live' testers wasted their resources and did the hard work on bug reporting were left with sub-optimal gear (Mk 12 VR) for a long time in a post-DR world of inflated hull NPCs.

    They said pets HP (Hit Points) scaled inappropriately with DR ("and the players love it") and then proceeded to all-round nerf all pets and separation sections, then released lockbox traits and C-Store ship traits that boost pets performance, which is removing what you already paid for (full T5 Fleet Starbase to access elite pets with high costs themselves) to monetize the gradual improvements some of which end up more OP than they were claimed to be in the fixing in the first place (inflated hull HP vs all out immunity plus heal on short CD launch pet button). Carrier pet commands are still broken, and only recently have proposals to implement fixes in future patch notes.

    C-Store ship skins that were made to work still don't (B'Rotlh), lobi items don't give out the items displayed on the box itself (Leeta Uniform).


    Nevermind my "off-topic rant," but I'll need some highly concentrated cool-aid to believe an entire overhaul of the spec system combined with adjustments made on every individual item that is affected by it will be ironed out in Tribble since we all know Live is beta, and the stuff that happens in beta won't always pan out identically when going live.

    "We won't lose anything" is incorrect. We have already lost countless respec tokens on testing the current spec system. However many we bought/were given and used in the past to figure out the old system won't get refunded to figure out the new system. The time, career choices, ships unpacked across endless toons is lost as the new system will not allow replicating the old.

    "Let's wait and see how it turns out?" Sure, I mean, let's ignore the track record of simple optional things being introduced followed by months of problems and attempted fixes and jump on major overhauls that affects the core mechanics of every single player. I don't know how much more player turnover this MMO from my perspective can take.


    Unpopular STFs don't pop on Live ("it's a reporting bug"), yet somehow everyone's excited about the Tribble Testing and the free respec tokens on Drozana. My only experience in tribble was waiting 15 min to get a single ISA if I was lucky, or a brand new STF that was yet unreleased to pop. "Testing" is supposed to be part of the gameplay fun so you acquire things while you discover and tweak your build. Now it is relegated to tribble where you get nothing (Zero) for your play time and no access to your fleet members for help ("Hi All, let's stop playing Live, let's abandon building fleet facilities, and head to tribble because I have important testing to do").

    No, this isn't a doom post, earlier in the thread I've already outlined the positives that I hope will make it through, and an open discussion looks at the whole picture not just the rosy shades.
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    hajmyishajmyis Member Posts: 405 Arc User
    The single tree that 99% of people will use will be posted soon. Not Sure is on the job!

    Oh 99% of the player base will use the same skills? I guess i be in that lonely 1%, but meh hey I am a dreamer
    "Frankly, not sure why you're on a one man nerf campaign. "
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    zedbrightlander1zedbrightlander1 Member Posts: 14,776 Arc User
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    eristhevortaeristhevorta Member Posts: 1,049 Bug Hunter
    Meow, I appurrciate the love given for science and engineering captains, as this revamp will benefit them the most. Also tactical captains do benefit of course, butt it's gunna be a lot better with the new system. Reading the info page was cumplicated, butt it was - at least to me - understandable enuff. I'm a bit unhappy with the ground-based points. It's an open secret to almeowst everyone that ground is only half as impurrtant as space ... with this change, it's even less than half as impurrtant. 46 space points and 10 ground points (ratio almeowst 5:1 for space).

    I assume that we'll still have the respec option for the new experience system like we used to have for the current skill system. The 56 points prully cunsist of ranking up between Lieutenant 3 and Admiral 59, because before you're still in the tutorial and after you're Fleet Admiral and from there the specialization point system kicks in.
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    daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    edited February 2016
    It's definitely going to be on Tribble today.
    I got a 4098Mb DL going on at the moment for Tribble.
    B)
    STO Member since February 2009.
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    alphaomega1500alphaomega1500 Member Posts: 126 Arc User
    edited February 2016
    So when they mean spring. Are we looking April or may of this year. With March being the month they run it through a full scale tribble/redshirt run along with all of the other new add-ons for season 11.5 ??

    Also, I would like some opinions on the following questions. I ask here because this thread is 18pgs

    1. Do you think the new skill revamp will make it easier for new or returning player to understand the new skill system ??
    2. Do you think the new revamping skill system is happening at the right time or should this have been done earlier or a lot earlier than now ??
    3. Has anyone run it yet ?? and if so how did it do since it is being run on tribble to iron out the bugs.
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    tancrediivtancrediiv Member Posts: 728 Arc User
    So far I have asked three valid questions that are not rabbit trails nor are they unreasonable. I am not here to rant or post endless criticism. I am a consumer who bases his purchase decisions on what you, the developers, implement.

    I have purchased a number of things here. I support this skills overhaul. It is needed. It is a great opportunity to fix issues from the past like how skills do not improve effectiveness in some energy weapons types which under perform but does improve some other energy weapons types making them top performers. It is also a way to give more control over the choice between ground combat and space combat capability. The old system causes to much slighting of one over the other.

    What I really want to know is will you be making these changes in such a way that the value and effectiveness of my purchases remains the same? The best example is Plasmonic Leach. Many of us have bought this item. When specced correctly, it gives a increased power to all subsystems with some drain from the target. In game play that is important, but the changes you are implementing will increase both drain and resistance to drain which, with what we read, will most likely decrease the effectiveness of the item to near insignificance as most will spec heavily into the new skill. You have stated items will be reassigned to the new points system, but you have not assured us that our "stuff" will not end up unfairly nerfed. My concern is for ALL items, not just the example above.

    Your answer, or lack of an answer, will effect my future purchase decisions. I am sure this is true for others in the community as well.


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    cristonic2cristonic2 Member Posts: 68 Arc User
    All I see right now is Ground Combat (something they are requiring more and more) is getting nerfed again. Slowly they are finding ways to make me wonder if they want to run people off. Well, that or they are in love with hiring Blizzards old, tired and out of touch Devs. Now, if I have to "Submit my Pin Number" One more time for a Computer I have used for Years, I am going to tell you what you can do with ARC.......I have the Disk from back when the game was Pay2Play and I will use it to avoid the junk you keep coming up with to make my life harder. Also, I started before, Way Before, the date you show on my account, you need to fix what's actually broken before you tear into things that still work IMO.
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    tarastheslayertarastheslayer Member Posts: 1,541 Bug Hunter
    cristonic2 wrote: »
    All I see right now is Ground Combat (something they are requiring more and more) is getting nerfed again.

    Doubtful, depends on how the combined kit performance works out.

    Also, what previous nerfs are you referring to, because ground has seen power creep like space has, just less pronounced.
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    I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
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    lan451lan451 Member Posts: 3,386 Arc User
    daveyny wrote: »
    It's definitely going to be on Tribble today.
    I got a 4098Mb DL going on at the moment for Tribble.
    B)

    Aww yeah. Patching that now. Looking forward to giving this a test run.
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    lordmalak1lordmalak1 Member Posts: 4,681 Arc User
    edited February 2016
    :disappointed:
    hajmyis wrote: »
    Perhaps to clear any confusion for those who wish not to read each and every post on this thread here is a link with response today about this.

    https://www.reddit.com/user/Borticus-Cryptic?count=26&before=t1_d04t7ae

    Ya, here's a tasty morsel from reddit:
    [–]Borticus-CrypticKurland here! 10 points 23 hours ago

    Your skillpoints remain untouched, but are no longer used to purchase Skills. They've been renamed as "Experience Points" and are strictly used to determine your level.

    Expertise is not being touched with this revamp.

    Expertise revamp on the horizon ? Sheesh, I'm sure glad I haven't spent any skill points on my current lvl 60 toon but I'm starting to feel really bad for those who've invested millions of dilith in their epic fleet gear that may no longer do what they're supposed to do. Forgive me while I go look at my pile of upgrade chits and think back to that one time I spent one of them on an upgrade. So Bort, my 360k of unspent skillpoints won't demote my toon back down to noob status because they're not allocated to skills, right ?
    KBF Lord MalaK
    Awoken Dead
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    Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
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    cem3212cem3212 Member Posts: 138 Arc User
    I for one thought Cryptic should have done the right thing & allowed every player a free skill respec back when they altered the logistics of the skill tree with the Crafting system, for a long time players had invested skill points of 3 or 6 into certain areas just for training purposes, but Cryptic decided not to for monetary greed.

    This however, at first glance, looks appealing & is welcomed! Not all the details are released yet & that communication will make a huge impact about how this is received, but again, I will look forward to this & hope that it is executed well. The forethought of communication & transparency is crucial for such changes.
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    vegeta50024vegeta50024 Member Posts: 2,336 Arc User
    lordmalak1 wrote: »
    :disappointed:
    hajmyis wrote: »
    Perhaps to clear any confusion for those who wish not to read each and every post on this thread here is a link with response today about this.

    https://www.reddit.com/user/Borticus-Cryptic?count=26&before=t1_d04t7ae

    Ya, here's a tasty morsel from reddit:
    [–]Borticus-CrypticKurland here! 10 points 23 hours ago

    Your skillpoints remain untouched, but are no longer used to purchase Skills. They've been renamed as "Experience Points" and are strictly used to determine your level.

    Expertise is not being touched with this revamp.

    Expertise revamp on the horizon ? Sheesh, I'm sure glad I haven't spent any skill points on my current lvl 60 toon but I'm starting to feel really bad for those who've invested millions of dilith in their epic fleet gear that may no longer do what they're supposed to do. Forgive me while I go look at my pile of upgrade chits and think back to that one time I spent one of them on an upgrade. So Bort, my 360k of unspent skillpoints won't demote my toon back down to noob status because they're not allocated to skills, right ?

    I don't think Expertise is ever going to be touched. Originally, Expertise was used for donating to fleet projects, skill up Bridge Officers (before the training revamp) and Reputation donations. One of those has been mostly eliminated and the other two are minor drains these days.

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    theanothernametheanothername Member Posts: 1,507 Arc User
    Usually I'm strongly against skill revamps & simplifications beyond a bit fine-tuning and a few added guides. In case of STO I think a complete rewrite was overdue at the point at which in Beta was decided that there is a skill-point limit.

    While most long time players including me could skill their chars blindly for someone new to the game its confusing as hell, extremely unexplained & invites to put points into skills that sounds useful but are not (i.e. I had one person quasi rage-quitting when I explained him that putting 5 pts in attack patterns does not increase his passive damage but increases actual active skills of which he had none; how does one knows that when he never played it before?).
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    jaturnleyjaturnley Member Posts: 1,218 Arc User
    Sorry that I have to admit it but given past experience with the administration of this product I also have a lack of confidence that this change will be made without major problems. [...]

    They can't fix Kemo use - it lagged for months and now seems nerfed to the ground.

    They couldn't fix Cannon procs, so they removed their ability to proc altogether.

    They introduced dry docking, then attempted fixes to it which removed the workarounds which left some people stuck in shuttles - a fleet member still has no access to their Vesta, now imagine if that was a char bound ship.

    They couldn't get Warp Core power reroutes to work on quality upgrades and so had to change all of our warp cores.

    The upgrade system was a landmine to use, and for a long time. People lost big on that, and the rest of us who knew not to touch it after the 'live' testers wasted their resources and did the hard work on bug reporting were left with sub-optimal gear (Mk 12 VR) for a long time in a post-DR world of inflated hull NPCs.

    They said pets HP (Hit Points) scaled inappropriately with DR ("and the players love it") and then proceeded to all-round nerf all pets and separation sections, then released lockbox traits and C-Store ship traits that boost pets performance, which is removing what you already paid for (full T5 Fleet Starbase to access elite pets with high costs themselves) to monetize the gradual improvements some of which end up more OP than they were claimed to be in the fixing in the first place (inflated hull HP vs all out immunity plus heal on short CD launch pet button). Carrier pet commands are still broken, and only recently have proposals to implement fixes in future patch notes.

    C-Store ship skins that were made to work still don't (B'Rotlh), lobi items don't give out the items displayed on the box itself (Leeta Uniform).


    Nevermind my "off-topic rant," but I'll need some highly concentrated cool-aid to believe an entire overhaul of the spec system combined with adjustments made on every individual item that is affected by it will be ironed out in Tribble since we all know Live is beta, and the stuff that happens in beta won't always pan out identically when going live.

    "We won't lose anything" is incorrect. We have already lost countless respec tokens on testing the current spec system. However many we bought/were given and used in the past to figure out the old system won't get refunded to figure out the new system. The time, career choices, ships unpacked across endless toons is lost as the new system will not allow replicating the old.

    "Let's wait and see how it turns out?" Sure, I mean, let's ignore the track record of simple optional things being introduced followed by months of problems and attempted fixes and jump on major overhauls that affects the core mechanics of every single player. I don't know how much more player turnover this MMO from my perspective can take.


    Unpopular STFs don't pop on Live ("it's a reporting bug"), yet somehow everyone's excited about the Tribble Testing and the free respec tokens on Drozana. My only experience in tribble was waiting 15 min to get a single ISA if I was lucky, or a brand new STF that was yet unreleased to pop. "Testing" is supposed to be part of the gameplay fun so you acquire things while you discover and tweak your build. Now it is relegated to tribble where you get nothing (Zero) for your play time and no access to your fleet members for help ("Hi All, let's stop playing Live, let's abandon building fleet facilities, and head to tribble because I have important testing to do").

    No, this isn't a doom post, earlier in the thread I've already outlined the positives that I hope will make it through, and an open discussion looks at the whole picture not just the rosy shades.

    I'm wondering, which game do you program for that you are so good that you can feel so comfortable about the solutions that the devs for this one come up with are so wrong? Is it a game that has millions of lines of code written by dozens of programmers who no longer work for the company, like this one? Because most of the things on your list are fixes - just not the fixes YOU wanted (the fact that you lead with Kemo is pretty telling that you are more bitter than reasonable).

    I get the feeling you haven't spent a lot of time on Tribble. People on Tribble don't generally run queues to test things. Queues are HORRIBLE for testing; because of the mix of players your performance stats can vary as much as 200-300% from run to run (except of course when Kemo was broken, in which case the guy(s) with Kemo would do 95% of the damage, which was just as bad for testing). Patrols on elite give you the same mix of ships every time and those ships have a ton of hit points, hence they are a far better way to consistently see what effects a change has on your build. The only time you need to run queues is when you are testing new abilities that affect your entire team or when there's a new queue that needs testing.
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    lordmalak1lordmalak1 Member Posts: 4,681 Arc User
    edited February 2016
    lordmalak1 wrote: »
    :disappointed:
    hajmyis wrote: »
    Perhaps to clear any confusion for those who wish not to read each and every post on this thread here is a link with response today about this.

    https://www.reddit.com/user/Borticus-Cryptic?count=26&before=t1_d04t7ae

    Ya, here's a tasty morsel from reddit:
    [–]Borticus-CrypticKurland here! 10 points 23 hours ago

    Your skillpoints remain untouched, but are no longer used to purchase Skills. They've been renamed as "Experience Points" and are strictly used to determine your level.

    Expertise is not being touched with this revamp.

    Expertise revamp on the horizon ? Sheesh, I'm sure glad I haven't spent any skill points on my current lvl 60 toon but I'm starting to feel really bad for those who've invested millions of dilith in their epic fleet gear that may no longer do what they're supposed to do. Forgive me while I go look at my pile of upgrade chits and think back to that one time I spent one of them on an upgrade. So Bort, my 360k of unspent skillpoints won't demote my toon back down to noob status because they're not allocated to skills, right ?

    I don't think Expertise is ever going to be touched. Originally, Expertise was used for donating to fleet projects, skill up Bridge Officers (before the training revamp) and Reputation donations. One of those has been mostly eliminated and the other two are minor drains these days.

    *shrug, just wasn't sure since I've never understood the purpose of expertise other than a hidden currency for donation to fleet projects. My main concern is about the unlocks on the new skill tree, on all my toon I set alot of skills @ 7 so I can use points in others @ 4 or 5. With the new system I'm forced to optimize certain skills I really don't need optimized and take a nerf on others I need a little more in than the usual 3, and will be prodded to invest in skills in a certain profession I don't need/want just to get something unlocked I really do want/need. I'm not particularly happy with the choice to make unoptimal selections taken from me because I was never sold on the whole tank/healer/damage dealer premise typical of MMO games.
    KBF Lord MalaK
    Awoken Dead
    giphy.gif

    Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
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    hangukohanguko Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    I don't like this. Last time you change skill tree, i almost stopped playing... i couldn't recall exactly how my previous skill tree was; i don't look forward to trying to remake a well made skill set up from scratch. This is not a change the game needs, a waste of time. Instead of more content, more STFs and things to do; dev team seems more concerned with annoying us with technical update. All that time could have been spent into something actually useful to us. Instead we get another headache to deal with =(
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    evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    This will be the best skill system ever and the players will love it
    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
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    hangukohanguko Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    This will be the best skill system ever and the players will love it

    lol, exactly. Delta all over again -shrug-
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    kirschtkirscht Member Posts: 95 Arc User
    Well. I appreciate all the work, and the fact that there is an effort to improve the game. I think there might have been some other areas of improvement that could have made a bigger difference. I'll have to try it first but my initial impression is skeptical. I kept reading things like, "now you no longer have to chose..." But that is one of the things that makes games like this fun and interesting over the long term - the trade offs. Having to make a choice, and being able to customize your character to how you want to play and what you want to do with him/her. It sounds like some of that customization is being eliminated. We spend money on different characters to have different set ups for different purposes in-game. If (as it seems with the ground skills more than anything) there is less customization, then PvP becomes almost me against another me. I'd rather have more options and customization, use the forums to figure it out, and gotten excited about, say, a match-maker type system for PUG PvP matches so there is more of a balance between ship types (in theory giving more of a 'voice' to each class. As it is PvP feels more like a free for all shooting match than something requiring strategy. I would point to World of Tanks as something that seems to work well that way). Or maybe a system where fleets compete with each other for star systems or territory on planets (SWTOR does something like this.) Hopefully I'll get into it and decide that this is all really awesome. But if not, and we keep streamlining to the point of losing more and more customization, then I may not bother with it after the story line is over. If I wanted simple I could go play Metroid on an old Super NES.
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    jaturnleyjaturnley Member Posts: 1,218 Arc User
    I guess we can't avoid the "we need more x, not this new system stuff" comments, but I'll say again what gets said every time there is a new systems change during the season x.5 update:

    The people working on this aren't the same people working on STFs, story content, ships, costumes, etc. The systems team is basically all programmers, and the systems updates (this, admiralty, the crafting update, ship loadouts, drydock, etc) work on stuff that doesn't require heavy art or story resources. Working on this does NOT slow down work on whatever thing you list off that you think they should be focusing on instead of this; they do this stuff during the downtime when they are not working on the systems stuff in the background of that thing you want.

    As for this not being necessary, I disagree wholeheartedly. I have been playing since beta and I still don't know for sure what everything in the current skill system does. It's opaque and requires going outside the game to unofficial sources to find out what any given skill really does, which is a HUGE turn off for new players. It's one of the few remaining legacy systems from the game's launch left (the first revamp didn't really change the core mechanics, it just re-arranged things), so it doesn't match anything else or prepare a player for what the end game looks like at present. It basically sets up every new casual player to make a bad build that they need to either live with or spend money to fix - a problem that turns players away from the game and frustrates veterans who need to deal with these bad builds in PUGs.
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    paspinallpaspinall Member Posts: 296 Arc User
    The fact alone they are removing skills makes it so the players have cookie cutter builds.


    So the fact they are also adding more skills then puts in more options... so we end up with... needing to look at it
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    paspinallpaspinall Member Posts: 296 Arc User
    cristonic2 wrote: »
    All I see right now is Ground Combat (something they are requiring more and more) is getting nerfed again. Slowly they are finding ways to make me wonder if they want to run people off. Well, that or they are in love with hiring Blizzards old, tired and out of touch Devs. Now, if I have to "Submit my Pin Number" One more time for a Computer I have used for Years, I am going to tell you what you can do with ARC.......I have the Disk from back when the game was Pay2Play and I will use it to avoid the junk you keep coming up with to make my life harder. Also, I started before, Way Before, the date you show on my account, you need to fix what's actually broken before you tear into things that still work IMO.


    Only if you completely max out ground under the current system which few people ever do.
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    meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    jaturnley wrote: »
    I guess we can't avoid the "we need more x, not this new system stuff" comments, but I'll say again what gets said every time there is a new systems change during the season x.5 update:

    The people working on this aren't the same people working on STFs, story content, ships, costumes, etc. The systems team is basically all programmers, and the systems updates (this, admiralty, the crafting update, ship loadouts, drydock, etc) work on stuff that doesn't require heavy art or story resources. Working on this does NOT slow down work on whatever thing you list off that you think they should be focusing on instead of this; they do this stuff during the downtime when they are not working on the systems stuff in the background of that thing you want.

    As for this not being necessary, I disagree wholeheartedly. I have been playing since beta and I still don't know for sure what everything in the current skill system does. It's opaque and requires going outside the game to unofficial sources to find out what any given skill really does, which is a HUGE turn off for new players. It's one of the few remaining legacy systems from the game's launch left (the first revamp didn't really change the core mechanics, it just re-arranged things), so it doesn't match anything else or prepare a player for what the end game looks like at present. It basically sets up every new casual player to make a bad build that they need to either live with or spend money to fix - a problem that turns players away from the game and frustrates veterans who need to deal with these bad builds in PUGs.


    What are you talking about?! Every ability comes with an extensive (tray-) Tooltip, explaning exactly what skills affect the ability. Besides, I find the current skills entirely clear, and have no problem, whatsoever, grasping what they do. The learning curve in EvE Online, now *that* was steep, but the skill system in STO is a breeze. At least until today.
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