Beams and Torpedoes

shrimphead2015 · December 2015

Probably has been talked about before but I have to ask and in advance, please forgive my ignorance.

I have been told innumerable times to never combine torps and beams due to a decrease in power and something, something reasons (I really don't remember). It was also said they just aren't a good match. The thing of it is after seeing all the episodes from the star trek series and the countless of space battles witnessed it seems the ships never had a problem firing all phasers and torps with no real adverse effect on power drainage.

My questions are has anyone managed to create a build that would satisfy those two weapons and the abilities that come with them without having to sacrifice power?

Has anyone heard anything about some solution the developers may have down the road for this?

Sorry if the thread is in the wrong part of the forum if I am in error there as well.

ikonn · December 2015

Torpedoes do not drain weapon power. The reason you are probably told not to combine the two is because your DPS suffers from the torpedoes slower firing rate as opposed to beams.

Personally, I like to have a single torpedo. Even with a single torpedo, I can still, comfortably, throw out between 10 and 20k DPS on a regular basis. Obviously, with all beams, I can throw out more. But you really don't need more DPS than that unless you pride yourself on how fast you curb-stomp the opposition.

In the end, though the choice is yours... regardless of what people tell you. Do what YOU feel is best for YOU and your preferred playstyle.

davefenestrator · December 2015

They have a little bit of a point in that for a set of Beam Arrays you will try to keep your ship at an angle where both the front and rear beam arrays can both hit that target with their 180 degree range, "broadsiding." When you do that a torp is outside of its 45 degree firing arc so will sit there not firing. That's for attacking a single target.

But:
- If you have 360 degree Omni beams in your read slots instead of Beam Arrays then you can stay nose-on to a target and fire torps.
- If you are using the Beam Fire At Will skill (FAW) then you can stay nose on to one target and rear Beam Arrays will just attack other targets

So it's OK to have a torpedo launcher if you use FAW and/or have Omni beams in back.

jarvisandalfred · December 2015

Can you combine them? Yes. Is it generally a dps gain? No. Does that mean you shouldn't do it? No, not really. There's things that have been done to encourage that, and there's a whole great channel (Star Trek Battles, check it out) that flies entirely cannon builds - so phasers and photorps, for example. Just because something isn't a clone of the utter best dps build doesn't make it a bad idea.

shrimphead2015 · December 2015

That's good to hear. I have been out for about a year and the build I had was a combo of anti-proton beam array , Quantum torpedoes, and omni-directional beams. I would get mad flak over it because even back then FAW was the way to go. I didn't have too much trouble since the FAW/Torp spread for me was lighting everything up but you, peer pressure and all...

Add to the fact that for a while now I have seen videos and the forums about having "beam only" or "torp only" builds was the standard had me thinking that maybe the only way to be even meagerly useful in a stf would mean I would have to modify my build to fit this one weapon type standard. I don't think I will ever be in the DPS league category and i am fine with that but I didn't want the build that I have always liked, be something of a disaster in a stf or solo mission.

mackbolan01 · December 2015

kontarnus · December 2015

It's not a question of incompatibility, they're not incompatible, it's a question of whether you want to play in a style that is more true to canon or in a style that is most logical for maximizing DPS. Since this is an mmoRPG, you can go either way, there is no right answer.
The drop off in DPS that you would suffer from having a torpedo slotted is not going to hurt your play unless you're gunning for a place on the DPS charts.

deleroux · December 2015

Run torps if you want to run torps, and to hell with the DPS min/maxing nonsense, as if it's at all needed for such an easymode game. Properly used Torps don't gimp you enough to warrant avoiding them. So I say use them if you like them, and enjoy the glorious torp spreads.

stobg2015 · December 2015

I usually like to have one torp up front and a mine launcher (or cluster torpedo) in the back. I tend to use DBBs or DHCs up front, too. Beam arrays and turrets are for all-around coverage and I like to have one or the other.

Sometimes I even mix them, but I don't recommend that. You usually want to concentrate on either cannons or beams and not mix the two because of BOFF skills.

While I prefer to use cannons on my KDF characters, I also have access to the Overwhelming Force (?) trait that requires Beam Overload and High Yield Torpedoes so there's usually one of each (beams, torps) depending on the ship. It's admittedly not necessarily efficient, as you can only slot so many BOFF skills and if you mix too many weapon types you can't maximize any of them. Not that I spend a whole lot of time worrying about maximizing...

samt1996 · December 2015

Um..... BFAW shoots in all directions

Your point is invalid.

kyrrok · December 2015

shrimphead2015 wrote: »

That's good to hear. I have been out for about a year and the build I had was a combo of anti-proton beam array , Quantum torpedoes, and omni-directional beams. I would get mad flak over it because even back then FAW was the way to go. I didn't have too much trouble since the FAW/Torp spread for me was lighting everything up but you, peer pressure and all...

Add to the fact that for a while now I have seen videos and the forums about having "beam only" or "torp only" builds was the standard had me thinking that maybe the only way to be even meagerly useful in a stf would mean I would have to modify my build to fit this one weapon type standard. I don't think I will ever be in the DPS league category and i am fine with that but I didn't want the build that I have always liked, be something of a disaster in a stf or solo mission.

Sounds to me like you need to clean out a few names in your friends list and find a more decent fleet to run with. As for being in DPS league material, I just got recorded with DPS above 10k in an ISA and I still won't try getting into one of the DPS clubs. From what some of the members also in my fleet say about them, I am in no rush to join them should my next ISA even be 100K. <Redacted>

risingwolfshadow · December 2015

I use beams and a forward neut torp on my arbiter and I hit around 40k DPS torps are great for smashing targets if you time when you unleash the spreads.

shadowwraith77 · December 2015

ruinthefun wrote: »

The problem with combining beams and torpedoes is that they don't point in the same directions. Beams point out the sides of your ships, torpedoes point towards the front or back of your ship. The two weapon systems are therefore physically incompatible. Now, if you were to be using DBBs or Cannons...

Where in the heck did you come up with this load of bull?

Beams fire from any angle up to its maximum firing arc, torpedoes are no different other than they have a very narrow arc normally, but there is a wide arc version!!!

jarvisandalfred · December 2015

shadowwraith77 wrote: »

ruinthefun wrote: »

The problem with combining beams and torpedoes is that they don't point in the same directions. Beams point out the sides of your ships, torpedoes point towards the front or back of your ship. The two weapon systems are therefore physically incompatible. Now, if you were to be using DBBs or Cannons...

Where in the heck did you come up with this load of bull?

Beams fire from any angle up to its maximum firing arc, torpedoes are no different other than they have a very narrow arc normally, but there is a wide arc version!!!

The idea would be this:

For a beam build, I have only 70 degrees on each side in which I can fire the front and aft ones. The normal firing arc of torpedoes doesn't make it into that 70 degrees. There are wide arc versions of torpedoes that overcome this limitation, but then you're using one of the 3 wide arc torpedoes, all of which are TRIBBLE compared to the torpedoes used on good torpedo builds.

farmallm · December 2015

I always use torpedoes with beams. I never had issues. Plus I mostly run cruisers, battle cruisers, and dreadnoughts. The beams is good on all vectors of attack. Then I fire torpedoes into them once I get their shields down for more damage. Plus I use torpedo spread to help out on multiple targets. A good shot will wipe out most of the small ships. So I usually pack 1 launcher front and rear.

And for the some say you can't add cannons. Ha, my D'deridex uses them and can really beat up a target. Specially once I pin them down in a nice gravity well or singularity. Plus now turn rating isn't an issue. That big ship is a speedy one once you add the right stuff to it.

rmy1081 · December 2015

I haven't really read this thread so sorry if not important but I often run a science boat with 1x torpedo, 2x DBB, and 3x omni beam.

Also, if you want to maximize your DPS, all beams is the best (assuming you can overcap, eps, and maneuver sufficiently), but losing one beam for a torpedo can add a lot of fun with not much loss in DPS.

shadowwraith77 · December 2015

jarvisandalfred wrote: »

shadowwraith77 wrote: »

ruinthefun wrote: »

The problem with combining beams and torpedoes is that they don't point in the same directions. Beams point out the sides of your ships, torpedoes point towards the front or back of your ship. The two weapon systems are therefore physically incompatible. Now, if you were to be using DBBs or Cannons...

Where in the heck did you come up with this load of bull?

Beams fire from any angle up to its maximum firing arc, torpedoes are no different other than they have a very narrow arc normally, but there is a wide arc version!!!

The idea would be this:

For a beam build, I have only 70 degrees on each side in which I can fire the front and aft ones. The normal firing arc of torpedoes doesn't make it into that 70 degrees. There are wide arc versions of torpedoes that overcome this limitation, but then you're using one of the 3 wide arc torpedoes, all of which are TRIBBLE compared to the torpedoes used on good torpedo builds.

And, what is exactly stopping you from using beams on the front, to fire in pair with a torpedo, or same on the rear?

Or, for that matter using beams on the front including a torpedo, and 2 omni arrays on the aft with a torpedo?

Just because a torpedo is restricted to a 90* arc, doesn't mean it cannot be used with beams, nor does it have any issue with pointing in the same direction as beams!!!

Nor, are they not compatible, so your statement is false!

thatcursedwolf · December 2015

shadowwraith77 wrote: »

jarvisandalfred wrote: »

shadowwraith77 wrote: »

ruinthefun wrote: »

The problem with combining beams and torpedoes is that they don't point in the same directions. Beams point out the sides of your ships, torpedoes point towards the front or back of your ship. The two weapon systems are therefore physically incompatible. Now, if you were to be using DBBs or Cannons...

Where in the heck did you come up with this load of bull?

Beams fire from any angle up to its maximum firing arc, torpedoes are no different other than they have a very narrow arc normally, but there is a wide arc version!!!

The idea would be this:

For a beam build, I have only 70 degrees on each side in which I can fire the front and aft ones. The normal firing arc of torpedoes doesn't make it into that 70 degrees. There are wide arc versions of torpedoes that overcome this limitation, but then you're using one of the 3 wide arc torpedoes, all of which are TRIBBLE compared to the torpedoes used on good torpedo builds.

And, what is exactly stopping you from using beams on the front, to fire in pair with a torpedo, or same on the rear?

Or, for that matter using beams on the front including a torpedo, and 2 omni arrays on the aft with a torpedo?

Just because a torpedo is restricted to a 90* arc, doesn't mean it cannot be used with beams, nor does it have any issue with pointing in the same direction as beams!!!

Nor, are they not compatible, so your statement is false!

A fore and aft torpedo means your cruiser is a 3/3 for beams when broadsiding and a 3+torp/2 or 0/3+torp when in the torp's arc and outisde of the AP torpedo it won't be boosted by your energy weapons consoles and if the shields aren't down the torp's damage will be greatly reduced.

It's not that you can't it's that there is little synergy between energy and torpedo weapons if the torpedoes themselves aren't so horribly OP that they don't need tac consoles to do decent damage.

shadowwraith77 · December 2015

thatcursedwolf wrote: »

shadowwraith77 wrote: »

jarvisandalfred wrote: »

shadowwraith77 wrote: »

ruinthefun wrote: »

The problem with combining beams and torpedoes is that they don't point in the same directions. Beams point out the sides of your ships, torpedoes point towards the front or back of your ship. The two weapon systems are therefore physically incompatible. Now, if you were to be using DBBs or Cannons...

Where in the heck did you come up with this load of bull?

Beams fire from any angle up to its maximum firing arc, torpedoes are no different other than they have a very narrow arc normally, but there is a wide arc version!!!

The idea would be this:

For a beam build, I have only 70 degrees on each side in which I can fire the front and aft ones. The normal firing arc of torpedoes doesn't make it into that 70 degrees. There are wide arc versions of torpedoes that overcome this limitation, but then you're using one of the 3 wide arc torpedoes, all of which are TRIBBLE compared to the torpedoes used on good torpedo builds.

And, what is exactly stopping you from using beams on the front, to fire in pair with a torpedo, or same on the rear?

Or, for that matter using beams on the front including a torpedo, and 2 omni arrays on the aft with a torpedo?

Just because a torpedo is restricted to a 90* arc, doesn't mean it cannot be used with beams, nor does it have any issue with pointing in the same direction as beams!!!

Nor, are they not compatible, so your statement is false!

A fore and aft torpedo means your cruiser is a 3/3 for beams when broadsiding and a 3+torp/2 or 0/3+torp when in the torp's arc and outisde of the AP torpedo it won't be boosted by your energy weapons consoles and if the shields aren't down the torp's damage will be greatly reduced.

It's not that you can't it's that there is little synergy between energy and torpedo weapons if the torpedoes themselves aren't so horribly OP that they don't need tac consoles to do decent damage.

I myself do not use torpedo tac consoles, and they do plenty enough dmg against pve enemies, and pvp player(s).

Synergy is all in the build, as you don't need min-max for normal and advance pve missions, so even running a 3/3 + 1/1 is sufficient enough.

Heck, I have since switched from a 4 DBB + 2 omni & kcb, to a 3 DBB & torp + 2 omni & kcb, to a 3 DBB & torp + 2 omni & torp, to a 2 DBB & 2 torps + 2 omni & torp, and dps hasn't waivered at all between them at all.

4 different set ups, all netting the same dps, synergy be damned!

Oh, and my fleet Mat'Ha uses a 2 DBB & 1 BA & 2 torps + 1 omni & 1 torp = hella fun w/good dps.

meimeitoo · December 2015

davefenestrator wrote: »

They have a little bit of a point in that for a set of Beam Arrays you will try to keep your ship at an angle where both the front and rear beam arrays can both hit that target with their 180 degree range, "broadsiding." When you do that a torp is outside of its 45 degree firing arc so will sit there not firing.

Where in the heck did you come up with this load of bull? :P No, seriously. Regular beams have a 250' firing arc (only the Experimental Proton Weapon, iirc, has a 180' arc). And torps have a standard 90' arc).

@OP: Only real reason not to mix beams and torps, IMHO (apart from the obvious lower DPS), is timing. It's simply harder to cycle your buffs (while your weapons are reloading) when there's an odd-one-out, as it were, timing-wise. Other than that, just fly what's fun for you.

markhawkman · December 2015

meimeitoo wrote: »

davefenestrator wrote: »

They have a little bit of a point in that for a set of Beam Arrays you will try to keep your ship at an angle where both the front and rear beam arrays can both hit that target with their 180 degree range, "broadsiding." When you do that a torp is outside of its 45 degree firing arc so will sit there not firing.

Where in the heck did you come up with this load of bull? :P No, seriously. Regular beams have a 250' firing arc (only the Experimental Proton Weapon, iirc, has a 180' arc). And torps have a standard 90' arc).

@OP: Only real reason not to mix beams and torps, IMHO (apart from the obvious lower DPS), is timing. It's simply harder to cycle your buffs (while your weapons are reloading) when there's an odd-one-out, as it were, timing-wise. Other than that, just fly what's fun for you.

The Experimental proton thing is a hybrid beam/cannon. I think it uses the firing arc of a single cannon.

darkknightucf · December 2015

Hi

https://www.reddit.com/r/odenknight_sto/comments/3sjyad/list_of_personal_builds/

Some of my builds, including true hybrid builds, and a non-optimal [STB] "Anti-Borg" build that pulls between 30-60K, depending on the day, and the love in a PuG Lyfe run.

sennahcherib · December 2015

things to take in consideration: what do you want?, how do you like to play? where is the fun for you?

the dps race is a waste of time. if you like to use torps, then continue to use them. Whatever builds you have, the important thing is the pleasure that you have to fly your ship. for example, I like to use the risian cruiser with a single cannon build; well ok this ship is not a dps monster, but this is really funny.

My questions are has anyone managed to create a build that would satisfy those two weapons and the abilities that come with them without having to sacrifice power?

topedoes don't drain power, and you don't even need special consoles etc to enjoy them. the only thing that I use to enhance the damage of my torp is the new personal trait.

berytak · December 2015

If my Cruiser can fit in a TS3 it will get the Wide Angle Quantum Torpedo Launcher ... the weapon of choice for broadsiding

flash525 · December 2015

Beams are always going to give you the best arc of fire, especially if you're using omni's at the rear. That said, I've never flown a ship without at least one fore torpedo launcher, just because it feels right. Can't go wrong with Torp Spread 3 either (if you're not using Beam:FAW3, in which case, Torp Spread 2.

You'll get more DPS with a full beam build, but unless you're fixated on maximizing your DPS potential (kind of pointless if you ask me, no challenge) then you'll do well to have a Torpedo, or even a set of Mine Launchers.

trizeo1 · December 2015

Greetings 07

shrimphead2015 wrote: »

Probably has been talked about before but I have to ask and in advance, please forgive my ignorance.

I have been told innumerable times to never combine torps and beams due to a decrease in power and something, something reasons (I really don't remember). It was also said they just aren't a good match. The thing of it is after seeing all the episodes from the star trek series and the countless of space battles witnessed it seems the ships never had a problem firing all phasers and torps with no real adverse effect on power drainage.

My questions are has anyone managed to create a build that would satisfy those two weapons and the abilities that come with them without having to sacrifice power?

Has anyone heard anything about some solution the developers may have down the road for this?

Sorry if the thread is in the wrong part of the forum if I am in error there as well.

When I first started STO and someone had a look at my build... It was .. frowned upon haha.. as a newb levelling up I had a mix of beams like phasers & distruptors & torps!.... atm my simple comprehension was to use the highest dps weapon I had from drops.

After some time and some guidance I was told to go AP and to get my dps as high as possible... and again.. being the newb.. I did so. Ended up in a fleet MVAE using a mix of DBB's, cannons, turrets, omni beam & the grav torp. After someone reviewed my build again... was just told to stay with beams but I was doing fine enough to solo a whole side of Khit at the time... #puglifeisreal.

Then one day I got... bored... all I did was fly up to a target and get withine 5 feet and unload my dps.. rinse & repeat. Yes I was killing stuff but something felt.. wrong.. to ME.

I always watched Star Trek battle clips and I didn't see any little escort parking going back and forth shotting red beams... least on the Fed side. Also, having played games like STBC & STSFC.. it didn't look trek what I was doing.

So I sait.. F IT!.. threw on phasers & torps fore & aft and BAM!.. Star Trek Battles was born!

I'm not the first one to come up with fly canon builds only in game because there are some who do.. my thing was to bring like minded canon lovers together and BO & HY the TRIBBLE outta everything hahah!

Now a lot of people have said that you will lost dps.. and.. it is TRUE!.. BUT... I, and many others, play for fun and try to emulate what was seen on screen.

There are some of us who are trying to see what a canon build can do.. will it ever top the dps charts?.. most likely not but it looks and feels good to have my ships looking like they did on screen.

I have beam heavy build on my MVAE which I go 3 beams 1 torp fore & 2 beams 1 torp aft which has/can pull anywhere from 30k - 60k.

I also have a torp heavy build on my Akira which I go 3 torps 1 beam fore & 2 torps 1 beam aft which has/can pull anwhere from 20k - 50k.

Of the 2.. the Akira looks more screen acc... the ship I currently am flying and having a BLAST doing so is my Sovy. I have the same set up as my Akira just with an extra torp aft and she looks AMAZING! she pulls 20k - 30k but she looks good doing so.. she is meant to look like she did in Nemesis.

So.. you CAN mix beams & torps and still do decent dps.. heck.. there are times I've out dpsd a full AP FAW/Kemocite (prefix) build. IF you are into chasing dps.. there is the challenge of pushing what a canon build can do.. you will be gimped from the get go but it's a challenge to keep up with them.

My advice, like so many others, play to have fun.. whatever that may be... canon.. min/max.. just have fun and try to take some people down with you.. it makes STO so much more fun to play day in/out when you enjoy it.

I've babbled long enough... if you decide to truly emulate what is on screen and have no care in the world about mixing beams & torps (long as you keep it race specific) feel free to check out the Star Trek Battles channel. We are a small group but we try to have fun.

07 (<--- salute btw)

jarvisandalfred wrote: »

Can you combine them? Yes. Is it generally a dps gain? No. Does that mean you shouldn't do it? No, not really. There's things that have been done to encourage that, and there's a whole great channel (Star Trek Battles, check it out) that flies entirely cannon builds - so phasers and photorps, for example. Just because something isn't a clone of the utter best dps build doesn't make it a bad idea.

^^ Quoted for TRUTH and also TY!

burstorion · December 2015

I've always been fond of builds I call 'Blockade builds', namely:

Take a brick(ish) ship that has decent tac/eng options (bortasqu, ect - somthing that can take a licking but still bring the pain) and some damaging foward arc powers (like the mat'ha spinal cannon or the bort cannon console)
Add two torps to the front (I like the ferengi launcher and a quantum/rep photon with 3pc dyson as the 'rengi launcher acts like a proc engine to make the other torp fire insanely often)
Add two dbbs fore and three omnis (ancient, tetryon fe and a standard type) and a toy to taste (mines, a torp, ect..or if you use the dyson 3pc, that godawful cannon)

Fill up the tac slots with the omni-type beam/projectile consoles (spire ftw) - the omni projectile consoles boost the ferengi launchers mediocre damage while barely impinging on the other types damage potential - plus as you are using three different omnis, you aare doing enhanced damage with them all and the dbbs you could also rainbow )

Now your aim is simple - chug towards enemy in 90 degree arc, hit faw (the only way I use faw) or BO, a tractor beam/gw/ionic distubance, your console powers and spread(or hyt if you want to guarantee single target destruction) then watch the pretty explosions as your target is reduced to subatomic particles

Its not the fastest way to kill a group of mobs, but boy is it satifying to erase one of them in a single alpha

harlequinpixie · December 2015

I fly a Romulan dyson destroyer, with three torpedoes on the front, cutting beam, omni disruptor and the terran disruptor on the back. My weapon power is low and on full aux power, I have one copy of faw 1. But, I have the leech that sucks the life out of everything for the beams power. And the beams themselves are only there to get the expose for my torpedoes. It's rather fun to fly something that is not just all beams/torpedoes or cannons.

With one copy of torpedo spread 3 and the tier four terran rep abilities I do well enough with the grav well, and destabilizing beam. Does it spew out a trillion dps?...not at all, but it's great fun seeing crits explode everywhere in the the 40k and up numbers with a spread.

Beams and Torpedoes

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