I am going to chime in here with this, I suspect some people are wanting this penalty removed, as to level new DR toons quickly, as to recycle the goods obtained as quickly as possible.
Personally, I would prefer ALL mission queues, to be locked from playability till level 20 or 30 is reached, there is no real reason for anyone level 5 to be running a pve queue in the first place!
I think it is best to say that reasons to do things can be pretty subjective. There is no reason to have pudding if you don't eat your meat. How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!
The low level queues are where learning begins. The best reason to have low level queues is so that you don't have all these inexperienced people mobbing your queues at level 50+ Imagine ISA with people who had the least possible time to learn queues. Take 15 to 25 levels of options away, and you will start to see even more of that sort of thing happenng.
DR toons? Is that Delta Rising? I don't get the reference here. Are they bringing it back? I don't have one, and have no place to put one if I did.
I guess I don't understand why you would want the penalty removed just to quickly level toons. The XP for FA are pretty weak sauce. There are some missions you are given to specifically seek out those queues, and the PVP environment, and they do give more XP but that is about as far as it goes. I'm leveling a bunch of toons right now, and the story missions level you so fast with the bonus XP that you hardly have time to care. Even without the bonus week there are all sorts of other in game boosts.
My goal in leveling right now is to get to level 11+ then switch to another. At 11+ you have access to doff missions that boost your performance with rewards. You should all know which missions I am talking about. I teach people to use those mission rewards wisely. Claim the rewards tactically, so the timer runs consistently with your activities in game. If your doing book-keeping for your Fleet, don't claim the reward that boosts your weapons just yet. Wait an hour till you are going into story or queues so you maximize it. That sort of thing.
Once I have access to dith, and doffs, I could level a toon a lot more slowly, and be just fine. Speed leveling has to be for a definite goal, and not the goal in and of itself. You should never speed level any toon to '60' just to get there fast. Bad idea. Speed leveling teaches very little about the game, and underequips the toon who prematurely reaches that level.
The biggest problem with speed leveling imho is that it only kind of works for the UFP! KDF and Rom toons are actually somewhat mangled in any speed leveling environment since so much of what they have access to is story based.
I had a level 22+ Reman the other day who hadn't been able to do doff missions even though they are normally accessible at level 11, only because the doff system seems to require you have a faction. So many doff missions are faction specific. To be honest, I don't remember seeing any doff missions that were all about being a Rom. Once I had a faction, I pretty much could do the Doff missions.
I think access to queues is going to have a real world experience benefit that far outweighs any 'in game' experience 'points'. XP do not give the player skills. If the player needs skill, they have to do the things they are trying to get skills at. Learn to swing a hammer by swinging a hammer, learn to pitch a ball by pitching. Some things you just have to do to really understand them properly.
Anyway, those are my thoughts here.
Qapla
Low level queues, being where learning begins?
I'm sorry, but we have lvl 50 - 60 player(s), who haven't learned anything much, or haven't bothered to learn enough, so those missions being devoid of playability @ lvl 5, is not some big loss IMO.
If you want social gaming, there are tons of ways to go about it, and not having to rely on pve queues to get it!!!
So, just because you and what few player(s) like you seem to think on this matter, it really doesn't warrant any major changes to the current AFK penalty system at such low levels, considering they shouldn't even be doing mission queues IMO in the first place!
Since Pax and crew are telling people to not queue up and just focus on story mission and level up as fast and efficently as possibly...you think that maybe...just MAYBE, that is why we might have so many clueless 50+ players in our queues? I know for a fact that I was a much better player in my first STF because I had experience with those lower level queues. I wasn't some godlike awesome player mind you...but I was WAY more on point and doing stuff that needed to be done because of those. You don't think there are other player who are like me...at all...I find that hard to believe. Don't get me wrong, there are I am sure players who learn to leech from those queues too...but you are suggesting tossing the baby out with the bathwater.
I actually wish there was no speed leveling. We see this very similarly.
I am going to chime in here with this, I suspect some people are wanting this penalty removed, as to level new DR toons quickly, as to recycle the goods obtained as quickly as possible.
Personally, I would prefer ALL mission queues, to be locked from playability till level 20 or 30 is reached, there is no real reason for anyone level 5 to be running a pve queue in the first place!
I think it is best to say that reasons to do things can be pretty subjective. There is no reason to have pudding if you don't eat your meat. How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!
The low level queues are where learning begins. The best reason to have low level queues is so that you don't have all these inexperienced people mobbing your queues at level 50+ Imagine ISA with people who had the least possible time to learn queues. Take 15 to 25 levels of options away, and you will start to see even more of that sort of thing happenng.
DR toons? Is that Delta Rising? I don't get the reference here. Are they bringing it back? I don't have one, and have no place to put one if I did.
I guess I don't understand why you would want the penalty removed just to quickly level toons. The XP for FA are pretty weak sauce. There are some missions you are given to specifically seek out those queues, and the PVP environment, and they do give more XP but that is about as far as it goes. I'm leveling a bunch of toons right now, and the story missions level you so fast with the bonus XP that you hardly have time to care. Even without the bonus week there are all sorts of other in game boosts.
My goal in leveling right now is to get to level 11+ then switch to another. At 11+ you have access to doff missions that boost your performance with rewards. You should all know which missions I am talking about. I teach people to use those mission rewards wisely. Claim the rewards tactically, so the timer runs consistently with your activities in game. If your doing book-keeping for your Fleet, don't claim the reward that boosts your weapons just yet. Wait an hour till you are going into story or queues so you maximize it. That sort of thing.
Once I have access to dith, and doffs, I could level a toon a lot more slowly, and be just fine. Speed leveling has to be for a definite goal, and not the goal in and of itself. You should never speed level any toon to '60' just to get there fast. Bad idea. Speed leveling teaches very little about the game, and underequips the toon who prematurely reaches that level.
The biggest problem with speed leveling imho is that it only kind of works for the UFP! KDF and Rom toons are actually somewhat mangled in any speed leveling environment since so much of what they have access to is story based.
I had a level 22+ Reman the other day who hadn't been able to do doff missions even though they are normally accessible at level 11, only because the doff system seems to require you have a faction. So many doff missions are faction specific. To be honest, I don't remember seeing any doff missions that were all about being a Rom. Once I had a faction, I pretty much could do the Doff missions.
I think access to queues is going to have a real world experience benefit that far outweighs any 'in game' experience 'points'. XP do not give the player skills. If the player needs skill, they have to do the things they are trying to get skills at. Learn to swing a hammer by swinging a hammer, learn to pitch a ball by pitching. Some things you just have to do to really understand them properly.
Anyway, those are my thoughts here.
Qapla
Low level queues, being where learning begins?
I'm sorry, but we have lvl 50 - 60 player(s), who haven't learned anything much, or haven't bothered to learn enough, so those missions being devoid of playability @ lvl 5, is not some big loss IMO.
If you want social gaming, there are tons of ways to go about it, and not having to rely on pve queues to get it!!!
So, just because you and what few player(s) like you seem to think on this matter, it really doesn't warrant any major changes to the current AFK penalty system at such low levels, considering they shouldn't even be doing mission queues IMO in the first place!
If learning doesn't begin in the low level examples of content, then it has to begin later at higher levels, and those inexperienced people will end up in the level 50+ queues, get afk'd and end up in one of these types of threads. Then we will be talking about removing the afk penalties for the level 50+ queues instead of just a few at the bottom. I honestly think it would make things worse for you in the long run.
Leveling isn't the answer, at least by itself. Some of the leveling is so fast it may well be that some of those 50-60 levelers you see, didn't get to stay at low levels long enough to absorb anything useful. Content should be available (like the devs seem to have intended) for new players to learn with. Even queues. Red Alerts aren't really the same.
While there may be other ways to experience similar (but not the same) content, again, I point out that the system is saying to level five toons, "Hey! Come over here and join this queue!". The devs clearly intend for them to do so, or they would not be given the invite in the first place. We can have our opinions on who should, or should not do what, but there is a design flaw here that should be obvious to anyone and this flaw hurts players who don't deserve it often enough to create this thread.
The devs made it so the game invites you at about level 3-5, and then the game punishes you for going where you were invited, if you have the misfortune of arriving at the same time as a pack of heavy hitters. That warrants a change if only for ethical reasons. It is wrong to invite someone then punish them for showing up.
It should be obvious. Isn't it obvious to you?
Qapla
Learning? Learning? You got player(s) no matter what level they are don't learn, or refuse to learn! So, no matter what level you open something up to these kinds of people, it just really wouldn't matter. So, again I repeat, there should not be any mission queues made available, till players are in the range of lv 20 - 30!!!
You know the old saying, that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, well same applies to some of the players in this game!
Not quite related to the whole theme of the AFK-penalty mechanics, but I've just run THREE Mirror Invasions in a row with at last one person AFKing through most or all of the round. I'm being told that the AFK-penalty mechanics aren't even implemented in MI, so given that this is just the second day of fourteen runs, that sure seems to be something great for which to look forward.
Unlike some people, I myself do not care to test that theory!
I am going to chime in here with this, I suspect some people are wanting this penalty removed, as to level new DR toons quickly, as to recycle the goods obtained as quickly as possible.
Personally, I would prefer ALL mission queues, to be locked from playability till level 20 or 30 is reached, there is no real reason for anyone level 5 to be running a pve queue in the first place!
I think it is best to say that reasons to do things can be pretty subjective. There is no reason to have pudding if you don't eat your meat. How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!
The low level queues are where learning begins. The best reason to have low level queues is so that you don't have all these inexperienced people mobbing your queues at level 50+ Imagine ISA with people who had the least possible time to learn queues. Take 15 to 25 levels of options away, and you will start to see even more of that sort of thing happenng.
DR toons? Is that Delta Rising? I don't get the reference here. Are they bringing it back? I don't have one, and have no place to put one if I did.
I guess I don't understand why you would want the penalty removed just to quickly level toons. The XP for FA are pretty weak sauce. There are some missions you are given to specifically seek out those queues, and the PVP environment, and they do give more XP but that is about as far as it goes. I'm leveling a bunch of toons right now, and the story missions level you so fast with the bonus XP that you hardly have time to care. Even without the bonus week there are all sorts of other in game boosts.
My goal in leveling right now is to get to level 11+ then switch to another. At 11+ you have access to doff missions that boost your performance with rewards. You should all know which missions I am talking about. I teach people to use those mission rewards wisely. Claim the rewards tactically, so the timer runs consistently with your activities in game. If your doing book-keeping for your Fleet, don't claim the reward that boosts your weapons just yet. Wait an hour till you are going into story or queues so you maximize it. That sort of thing.
Once I have access to dith, and doffs, I could level a toon a lot more slowly, and be just fine. Speed leveling has to be for a definite goal, and not the goal in and of itself. You should never speed level any toon to '60' just to get there fast. Bad idea. Speed leveling teaches very little about the game, and underequips the toon who prematurely reaches that level.
The biggest problem with speed leveling imho is that it only kind of works for the UFP! KDF and Rom toons are actually somewhat mangled in any speed leveling environment since so much of what they have access to is story based.
I had a level 22+ Reman the other day who hadn't been able to do doff missions even though they are normally accessible at level 11, only because the doff system seems to require you have a faction. So many doff missions are faction specific. To be honest, I don't remember seeing any doff missions that were all about being a Rom. Once I had a faction, I pretty much could do the Doff missions.
I think access to queues is going to have a real world experience benefit that far outweighs any 'in game' experience 'points'. XP do not give the player skills. If the player needs skill, they have to do the things they are trying to get skills at. Learn to swing a hammer by swinging a hammer, learn to pitch a ball by pitching. Some things you just have to do to really understand them properly.
Anyway, those are my thoughts here.
Qapla
Low level queues, being where learning begins?
I'm sorry, but we have lvl 50 - 60 player(s), who haven't learned anything much, or haven't bothered to learn enough, so those missions being devoid of playability @ lvl 5, is not some big loss IMO.
If you want social gaming, there are tons of ways to go about it, and not having to rely on pve queues to get it!!!
So, just because you and what few player(s) like you seem to think on this matter, it really doesn't warrant any major changes to the current AFK penalty system at such low levels, considering they shouldn't even be doing mission queues IMO in the first place!
If learning doesn't begin in the low level examples of content, then it has to begin later at higher levels, and those inexperienced people will end up in the level 50+ queues, get afk'd and end up in one of these types of threads. Then we will be talking about removing the afk penalties for the level 50+ queues instead of just a few at the bottom. I honestly think it would make things worse for you in the long run.
Leveling isn't the answer, at least by itself. Some of the leveling is so fast it may well be that some of those 50-60 levelers you see, didn't get to stay at low levels long enough to absorb anything useful. Content should be available (like the devs seem to have intended) for new players to learn with. Even queues. Red Alerts aren't really the same.
While there may be other ways to experience similar (but not the same) content, again, I point out that the system is saying to level five toons, "Hey! Come over here and join this queue!". The devs clearly intend for them to do so, or they would not be given the invite in the first place. We can have our opinions on who should, or should not do what, but there is a design flaw here that should be obvious to anyone and this flaw hurts players who don't deserve it often enough to create this thread.
The devs made it so the game invites you at about level 3-5, and then the game punishes you for going where you were invited, if you have the misfortune of arriving at the same time as a pack of heavy hitters. That warrants a change if only for ethical reasons. It is wrong to invite someone then punish them for showing up.
It should be obvious. Isn't it obvious to you?
Qapla
Learning? Learning? You got player(s) no matter what level they are don't learn, or refuse to learn! So, no matter what level you open something up to these kinds of people, it just really wouldn't matter. So, again I repeat, there should not be any mission queues made available, till players are in the range of lv 20 - 30!!!
You know the old saying, that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, well same applies to some of the players in this game!
Not quite related to the whole theme of the AFK-penalty mechanics, but I've just run THREE Mirror Invasions in a row with at last one person AFKing through most or all of the round. I'm being told that the AFK-penalty mechanics aren't even implemented in MI, so given that this is just the second day of fourteen runs, that sure seems to be something great for which to look forward.
Unlike some people, I myself do not care to test that theory!
I can't leave this system unchallenged just because a few people fit your example. Many would benefit, many do benefit, and you do not seem to take them into consideration. For the few it doesn't matter for, we certainly have many it does matter for. Your basically saying that since some kids are learning impaired, then don't let anyone start school till they are 12 years old. That is clearly not the right way to resolve this issue.
I would also have to challenge the system on the grounds that a casual player who isn't very interested in maximizing their stats is still a legitimate customer of Cryptic/STO, and they have an equally legitimate right to access the content without being punished for participating. I am glad to support those who wish to have access to content merely because they are customers. I am by default always in favor of changes that increase what each of us has available to choose from in the game. Make the game more awesome for more people!
I am against removing access to content just to satisfy a minority. I am against punishing innocent players of any skill level, just to satisfy a minority. The current system only favors a minority. Some of that minority appear to be fine with a system that hands out unjust punishment and I think it isn't to hard to read something into that.
Some players may not "drink" the water. That doesn't excuse draining the lake in spite of everyone else who does.
We are looking at the AFK penalty, and discussing the way the system gives false positives to a variety of players. Some of this discussion is in favor of fixing the system. Some of it is in favor of limiting access for new and low level players more that it already is. Some of the discussion is against any changes at all.
I am in the camp favoring change to improve the game for new/low level players by removing the risk of false positives for 9 out of 38 queues.
Remove afk's for the nine queues that allow levels below 50 to enter. Add a top performer special reward (maybe?)
Create a 'mission' that tallies your (X) successive full completions of a normal mission before it rewards you with advancement.
Possibly give more passive (skill?) boosts to low levels mixed with high levels so they carry their own weight better.
Except for needing a 'reward' for access, and re-adding auto fails, don't change the top 29 queues requiring level 50+ to enter.
Possibly provide a score that the player may choose to look at at their own discretion. So no public humiliations of new people.
These changes would give players nine queues to learn in, without risk of being forced into an AFK penalty by much superior players, and would provide a little more of a speed bump before players with less developed ability can access Advanced or Elite difficulty queues. Everyone gets something they want in this scenario.
I am going to chime in here with this, I suspect some people are wanting this penalty removed, as to level new DR toons quickly, as to recycle the goods obtained as quickly as possible.
Personally, I would prefer ALL mission queues, to be locked from playability till level 20 or 30 is reached, there is no real reason for anyone level 5 to be running a pve queue in the first place!
I think it is best to say that reasons to do things can be pretty subjective. There is no reason to have pudding if you don't eat your meat. How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!
The low level queues are where learning begins. The best reason to have low level queues is so that you don't have all these inexperienced people mobbing your queues at level 50+ Imagine ISA with people who had the least possible time to learn queues. Take 15 to 25 levels of options away, and you will start to see even more of that sort of thing happenng.
DR toons? Is that Delta Rising? I don't get the reference here. Are they bringing it back? I don't have one, and have no place to put one if I did.
I guess I don't understand why you would want the penalty removed just to quickly level toons. The XP for FA are pretty weak sauce. There are some missions you are given to specifically seek out those queues, and the PVP environment, and they do give more XP but that is about as far as it goes. I'm leveling a bunch of toons right now, and the story missions level you so fast with the bonus XP that you hardly have time to care. Even without the bonus week there are all sorts of other in game boosts.
My goal in leveling right now is to get to level 11+ then switch to another. At 11+ you have access to doff missions that boost your performance with rewards. You should all know which missions I am talking about. I teach people to use those mission rewards wisely. Claim the rewards tactically, so the timer runs consistently with your activities in game. If your doing book-keeping for your Fleet, don't claim the reward that boosts your weapons just yet. Wait an hour till you are going into story or queues so you maximize it. That sort of thing.
Once I have access to dith, and doffs, I could level a toon a lot more slowly, and be just fine. Speed leveling has to be for a definite goal, and not the goal in and of itself. You should never speed level any toon to '60' just to get there fast. Bad idea. Speed leveling teaches very little about the game, and underequips the toon who prematurely reaches that level.
The biggest problem with speed leveling imho is that it only kind of works for the UFP! KDF and Rom toons are actually somewhat mangled in any speed leveling environment since so much of what they have access to is story based.
I had a level 22+ Reman the other day who hadn't been able to do doff missions even though they are normally accessible at level 11, only because the doff system seems to require you have a faction. So many doff missions are faction specific. To be honest, I don't remember seeing any doff missions that were all about being a Rom. Once I had a faction, I pretty much could do the Doff missions.
I think access to queues is going to have a real world experience benefit that far outweighs any 'in game' experience 'points'. XP do not give the player skills. If the player needs skill, they have to do the things they are trying to get skills at. Learn to swing a hammer by swinging a hammer, learn to pitch a ball by pitching. Some things you just have to do to really understand them properly.
Anyway, those are my thoughts here.
Qapla
Low level queues, being where learning begins?
I'm sorry, but we have lvl 50 - 60 player(s), who haven't learned anything much, or haven't bothered to learn enough, so those missions being devoid of playability @ lvl 5, is not some big loss IMO.
If you want social gaming, there are tons of ways to go about it, and not having to rely on pve queues to get it!!!
So, just because you and what few player(s) like you seem to think on this matter, it really doesn't warrant any major changes to the current AFK penalty system at such low levels, considering they shouldn't even be doing mission queues IMO in the first place!
If learning doesn't begin in the low level examples of content, then it has to begin later at higher levels, and those inexperienced people will end up in the level 50+ queues, get afk'd and end up in one of these types of threads. Then we will be talking about removing the afk penalties for the level 50+ queues instead of just a few at the bottom. I honestly think it would make things worse for you in the long run.
Leveling isn't the answer, at least by itself. Some of the leveling is so fast it may well be that some of those 50-60 levelers you see, didn't get to stay at low levels long enough to absorb anything useful. Content should be available (like the devs seem to have intended) for new players to learn with. Even queues. Red Alerts aren't really the same.
While there may be other ways to experience similar (but not the same) content, again, I point out that the system is saying to level five toons, "Hey! Come over here and join this queue!". The devs clearly intend for them to do so, or they would not be given the invite in the first place. We can have our opinions on who should, or should not do what, but there is a design flaw here that should be obvious to anyone and this flaw hurts players who don't deserve it often enough to create this thread.
The devs made it so the game invites you at about level 3-5, and then the game punishes you for going where you were invited, if you have the misfortune of arriving at the same time as a pack of heavy hitters. That warrants a change if only for ethical reasons. It is wrong to invite someone then punish them for showing up.
It should be obvious. Isn't it obvious to you?
Qapla
Learning? Learning? You got player(s) no matter what level they are don't learn, or refuse to learn! So, no matter what level you open something up to these kinds of people, it just really wouldn't matter. So, again I repeat, there should not be any mission queues made available, till players are in the range of lv 20 - 30!!!
You know the old saying, that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, well same applies to some of the players in this game!
Not quite related to the whole theme of the AFK-penalty mechanics, but I've just run THREE Mirror Invasions in a row with at last one person AFKing through most or all of the round. I'm being told that the AFK-penalty mechanics aren't even implemented in MI, so given that this is just the second day of fourteen runs, that sure seems to be something great for which to look forward.
Unlike some people, I myself do not care to test that theory!
I can't leave this system unchallenged just because a few people fit your example. Many would benefit, many do benefit, and you do not seem to take them into consideration. For the few it doesn't matter for, we certainly have many it does matter for. Your basically saying that since some kids are learning impaired, then don't let anyone start school till they are 12 years old. That is clearly not the right way to resolve this issue.
I would also have to challenge the system on the grounds that a casual player who isn't very interested in maximizing their stats is still a legitimate customer of Cryptic/STO, and they have an equally legitimate right to access the content without being punished for participating. I am glad to support those who wish to have access to content merely because they are customers. I am by default always in favor of changes that increase what each of us has available to choose from in the game. Make the game more awesome for more people!
I am against removing access to content just to satisfy a minority. I am against punishing innocent players of any skill level, just to satisfy a minority. The current system only favors a minority. Some of that minority appear to be fine with a system that hands out unjust punishment and I think it isn't to hard to read something into that.
Some players may not "drink" the water. That doesn't excuse draining the lake in spite of everyone else who does.
Qapla
I'm sorry, but a good majority of the so called casual players, are most likely not the huge cash cows Cryptic would prefer, and even less so of an actual time consumer in game playing!
So, even though they can and may be potential spenders, the likelyhood of them being so, is most likely small at best!
As for players learning capacity in this game, some learn quickly, others slowly, and even some very slowly - not at all.
Those who should be learning, don't take it upon themselves to do so, don't read the mission objectives, don't follow the advise of others often at all if even, don't bother to communicate really at all!
Even a simple "Hey all, I am new to this mission, so be advised as any help would be appreciated"
Instead, nothing but silence, so outside of not communicating, nor most even bothering to research anything online, and failing to read descriptions/interacting with npcs/not paying attention to mission objectives, it's no wonder IMO they remain clueless and drag down people trying to run missions they have no real business in!
It's exactly 99.9% their own fault, the other 0.1% can be blamed on everything else!!!
And, no single pve queue is going to really help with this issue, so again it doesn't need changing except to keep them out of something that isn't really a necessity for them to be in, in the first place!
As for you analogy in regards to the learning impaired, what difference would it make if they went to school later than sooner, if they don't actually learn anything till the age of 12 possibly?
I am not saying they can't, but what if they cannot?
I mean people differ in how quickly they learn, so those who do learn normally - quickly succeed roughly just as fast, while those who learn slowly - not really at all, simply remain behind in succeeding if at all.
I am going to chime in here with this, I suspect some people are wanting this penalty removed, as to level new DR toons quickly, as to recycle the goods obtained as quickly as possible.
Personally, I would prefer ALL mission queues, to be locked from playability till level 20 or 30 is reached, there is no real reason for anyone level 5 to be running a pve queue in the first place!
I think it is best to say that reasons to do things can be pretty subjective. There is no reason to have pudding if you don't eat your meat. How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!
The low level queues are where learning begins. The best reason to have low level queues is so that you don't have all these inexperienced people mobbing your queues at level 50+ Imagine ISA with people who had the least possible time to learn queues. Take 15 to 25 levels of options away, and you will start to see even more of that sort of thing happenng.
DR toons? Is that Delta Rising? I don't get the reference here. Are they bringing it back? I don't have one, and have no place to put one if I did.
I guess I don't understand why you would want the penalty removed just to quickly level toons. The XP for FA are pretty weak sauce. There are some missions you are given to specifically seek out those queues, and the PVP environment, and they do give more XP but that is about as far as it goes. I'm leveling a bunch of toons right now, and the story missions level you so fast with the bonus XP that you hardly have time to care. Even without the bonus week there are all sorts of other in game boosts.
My goal in leveling right now is to get to level 11+ then switch to another. At 11+ you have access to doff missions that boost your performance with rewards. You should all know which missions I am talking about. I teach people to use those mission rewards wisely. Claim the rewards tactically, so the timer runs consistently with your activities in game. If your doing book-keeping for your Fleet, don't claim the reward that boosts your weapons just yet. Wait an hour till you are going into story or queues so you maximize it. That sort of thing.
Once I have access to dith, and doffs, I could level a toon a lot more slowly, and be just fine. Speed leveling has to be for a definite goal, and not the goal in and of itself. You should never speed level any toon to '60' just to get there fast. Bad idea. Speed leveling teaches very little about the game, and underequips the toon who prematurely reaches that level.
The biggest problem with speed leveling imho is that it only kind of works for the UFP! KDF and Rom toons are actually somewhat mangled in any speed leveling environment since so much of what they have access to is story based.
I had a level 22+ Reman the other day who hadn't been able to do doff missions even though they are normally accessible at level 11, only because the doff system seems to require you have a faction. So many doff missions are faction specific. To be honest, I don't remember seeing any doff missions that were all about being a Rom. Once I had a faction, I pretty much could do the Doff missions.
I think access to queues is going to have a real world experience benefit that far outweighs any 'in game' experience 'points'. XP do not give the player skills. If the player needs skill, they have to do the things they are trying to get skills at. Learn to swing a hammer by swinging a hammer, learn to pitch a ball by pitching. Some things you just have to do to really understand them properly.
Anyway, those are my thoughts here.
Qapla
Low level queues, being where learning begins?
I'm sorry, but we have lvl 50 - 60 player(s), who haven't learned anything much, or haven't bothered to learn enough, so those missions being devoid of playability @ lvl 5, is not some big loss IMO.
If you want social gaming, there are tons of ways to go about it, and not having to rely on pve queues to get it!!!
So, just because you and what few player(s) like you seem to think on this matter, it really doesn't warrant any major changes to the current AFK penalty system at such low levels, considering they shouldn't even be doing mission queues IMO in the first place!
If learning doesn't begin in the low level examples of content, then it has to begin later at higher levels, and those inexperienced people will end up in the level 50+ queues, get afk'd and end up in one of these types of threads. Then we will be talking about removing the afk penalties for the level 50+ queues instead of just a few at the bottom. I honestly think it would make things worse for you in the long run.
Leveling isn't the answer, at least by itself. Some of the leveling is so fast it may well be that some of those 50-60 levelers you see, didn't get to stay at low levels long enough to absorb anything useful. Content should be available (like the devs seem to have intended) for new players to learn with. Even queues. Red Alerts aren't really the same.
While there may be other ways to experience similar (but not the same) content, again, I point out that the system is saying to level five toons, "Hey! Come over here and join this queue!". The devs clearly intend for them to do so, or they would not be given the invite in the first place. We can have our opinions on who should, or should not do what, but there is a design flaw here that should be obvious to anyone and this flaw hurts players who don't deserve it often enough to create this thread.
The devs made it so the game invites you at about level 3-5, and then the game punishes you for going where you were invited, if you have the misfortune of arriving at the same time as a pack of heavy hitters. That warrants a change if only for ethical reasons. It is wrong to invite someone then punish them for showing up.
It should be obvious. Isn't it obvious to you?
Qapla
Learning? Learning? You got player(s) no matter what level they are don't learn, or refuse to learn! So, no matter what level you open something up to these kinds of people, it just really wouldn't matter. So, again I repeat, there should not be any mission queues made available, till players are in the range of lv 20 - 30!!!
You know the old saying, that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, well same applies to some of the players in this game!
Not quite related to the whole theme of the AFK-penalty mechanics, but I've just run THREE Mirror Invasions in a row with at last one person AFKing through most or all of the round. I'm being told that the AFK-penalty mechanics aren't even implemented in MI, so given that this is just the second day of fourteen runs, that sure seems to be something great for which to look forward.
Unlike some people, I myself do not care to test that theory!
I can't leave this system unchallenged just because a few people fit your example. Many would benefit, many do benefit, and you do not seem to take them into consideration. For the few it doesn't matter for, we certainly have many it does matter for. Your basically saying that since some kids are learning impaired, then don't let anyone start school till they are 12 years old. That is clearly not the right way to resolve this issue.
I would also have to challenge the system on the grounds that a casual player who isn't very interested in maximizing their stats is still a legitimate customer of Cryptic/STO, and they have an equally legitimate right to access the content without being punished for participating. I am glad to support those who wish to have access to content merely because they are customers. I am by default always in favor of changes that increase what each of us has available to choose from in the game. Make the game more awesome for more people!
I am against removing access to content just to satisfy a minority. I am against punishing innocent players of any skill level, just to satisfy a minority. The current system only favors a minority. Some of that minority appear to be fine with a system that hands out unjust punishment and I think it isn't to hard to read something into that.
Some players may not "drink" the water. That doesn't excuse draining the lake in spite of everyone else who does.
Qapla
I'm sorry, but a good majority of the so called casual players, are most likely not the huge cash cows Cryptic would prefer, and even less so of an actual time consumer in game playing!
So, even though they can and may be potential spenders, the likelyhood of them being so, is most likely small at best!
As for players learninf capacity in this game, some learn quickly, others slowly, and even some very slowly - not at all.
Those who should be learning, don't take it upon themselves to do so, don't read the mission objectives, don't follow the advise of others often at all if even, don't bother to communicate really at all!
Even a simple "Hey all, I am new to this mission, so be advised as any help would be appreciated"
Instead, nothing but silence, so outside of not communicating, nor most even bothering to research anything online, and failing to read descriptions/interacting with npcs/not paying attention to mission objectives, it's no wonder IMO they remain clueless and drag down people trying to run missions they have no real business in!
It's exactly 99.9% their own fault, the other 0.1% can be blamed on everything else!!!
And, no single pve queue is going to really help with this issue, so again it doesn't need changing except to keep them out of something that isn't really a necessity for them to be in, in the first place!
As for you analogy in regards to the learning impaired, what difference would it make if they went to school later than sooner, if they don't actually learn anything till the age of 12 possibly?
I am not saying they can't, but what if they cannot?
I mean people differ in how quickly they learn, so those who do learn normally - quickly succeed roughly just as fast, while those who learn slowly - not really at all, simply remain behind in succeeding if at all.
I think you maybe surprised at how much the casual players spend in game. I see quite a few of them in some of the pricey lock box ships or the latest T6 ships of popular design (generally not cryptic's own, but the ones on the shows). Remember that while these folks maybe casual gamers, they are trek fans...and trek fans are known to have more money the sense. One fellow didn't know how to convert zen into EC (and when I mentioned selling keys for EC, next thing I know, he spends 100 bucks on keys to sell...bloody WAY more money then sense). As far as game time consumption...you maybe right.
As far as trying to learn on their own...when the game fails to teach you what you need to know, it is a failure in game design. Yes you can go to the wiki or ask and learn...but the game itself should teach you the game mechanics IN GAME as a good game design. That is not the fault of the player (nor is it as small as .1% of the blame). That said, the lack of new players asking for help is bad...but that is because the first experience that new players have to social interaction in this game is ESD. Would YOU ask for any help from people who hang out at ESD? I sure as hell wouldn't. That is also not the player's fault. This game should have some at least part time GM who keep at least the major social zones in check. It has gotten better I admit as of late.
And you keep saying that those low level queues doesn't help any...except I am here to tell you that it did. For ME, personally. So your blanket statement of it helps NOBODY is PATENTLY FALSE. And unless I am completely unique in the way I process information and play games, I sure as hell can't be alone in this experience of this. You keep mentioning how people learn stuff are different rates...well people also learn by different METHODS...and playing early queues is actually a helpful learning tool for some of us. Are you so bloody dense that you think that the only way to learn is YOUR WAY?
When you and others keep saying, "Fails to teach you what you need to know", whom are you speaking for?
Because clearly, there are those I mentioned who learn quickly, it teaches enough, not everything, but enough!!!
As for asking in general chat for help, yes you can get trolled, but I myself and many others do help, so not an excuse really!
Mission queues, may help some people, but the level of help is ok - minimal at best, especially at such low levels as you described, followed by your own contradiction that the game doesn't really teach anybody anything, so what can they possibly learn at lvl5 in some pve queue, with the game teaching them as you say nothing really?
I mean, does your alarm clock tell you how to make coffee, prep the over, how to cook a roast?
Some things are just left out, and for the player(s) to figure out on their own, or ask advise, or research!
If they don't do this, than they sit lost I guess, blaming the game developers.
Part of the fun, or at least it supposed to be, is figuring things out by other means.
After all what good is a rubix cube, if it tells you exactly how to solve it?
I am going to chime in here with this, I suspect some people are wanting this penalty removed, as to level new DR toons quickly, as to recycle the goods obtained as quickly as possible.
Personally, I would prefer ALL mission queues, to be locked from playability till level 20 or 30 is reached, there is no real reason for anyone level 5 to be running a pve queue in the first place!
I think it is best to say that reasons to do things can be pretty subjective. There is no reason to have pudding if you don't eat your meat. How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!
The low level queues are where learning begins. The best reason to have low level queues is so that you don't have all these inexperienced people mobbing your queues at level 50+ Imagine ISA with people who had the least possible time to learn queues. Take 15 to 25 levels of options away, and you will start to see even more of that sort of thing happenng.
DR toons? Is that Delta Rising? I don't get the reference here. Are they bringing it back? I don't have one, and have no place to put one if I did.
I guess I don't understand why you would want the penalty removed just to quickly level toons. The XP for FA are pretty weak sauce. There are some missions you are given to specifically seek out those queues, and the PVP environment, and they do give more XP but that is about as far as it goes. I'm leveling a bunch of toons right now, and the story missions level you so fast with the bonus XP that you hardly have time to care. Even without the bonus week there are all sorts of other in game boosts.
My goal in leveling right now is to get to level 11+ then switch to another. At 11+ you have access to doff missions that boost your performance with rewards. You should all know which missions I am talking about. I teach people to use those mission rewards wisely. Claim the rewards tactically, so the timer runs consistently with your activities in game. If your doing book-keeping for your Fleet, don't claim the reward that boosts your weapons just yet. Wait an hour till you are going into story or queues so you maximize it. That sort of thing.
Once I have access to dith, and doffs, I could level a toon a lot more slowly, and be just fine. Speed leveling has to be for a definite goal, and not the goal in and of itself. You should never speed level any toon to '60' just to get there fast. Bad idea. Speed leveling teaches very little about the game, and underequips the toon who prematurely reaches that level.
The biggest problem with speed leveling imho is that it only kind of works for the UFP! KDF and Rom toons are actually somewhat mangled in any speed leveling environment since so much of what they have access to is story based.
I had a level 22+ Reman the other day who hadn't been able to do doff missions even though they are normally accessible at level 11, only because the doff system seems to require you have a faction. So many doff missions are faction specific. To be honest, I don't remember seeing any doff missions that were all about being a Rom. Once I had a faction, I pretty much could do the Doff missions.
I think access to queues is going to have a real world experience benefit that far outweighs any 'in game' experience 'points'. XP do not give the player skills. If the player needs skill, they have to do the things they are trying to get skills at. Learn to swing a hammer by swinging a hammer, learn to pitch a ball by pitching. Some things you just have to do to really understand them properly.
Anyway, those are my thoughts here.
Qapla
Low level queues, being where learning begins?
I'm sorry, but we have lvl 50 - 60 player(s), who haven't learned anything much, or haven't bothered to learn enough, so those missions being devoid of playability @ lvl 5, is not some big loss IMO.
If you want social gaming, there are tons of ways to go about it, and not having to rely on pve queues to get it!!!
So, just because you and what few player(s) like you seem to think on this matter, it really doesn't warrant any major changes to the current AFK penalty system at such low levels, considering they shouldn't even be doing mission queues IMO in the first place!
If learning doesn't begin in the low level examples of content, then it has to begin later at higher levels, and those inexperienced people will end up in the level 50+ queues, get afk'd and end up in one of these types of threads. Then we will be talking about removing the afk penalties for the level 50+ queues instead of just a few at the bottom. I honestly think it would make things worse for you in the long run.
Leveling isn't the answer, at least by itself. Some of the leveling is so fast it may well be that some of those 50-60 levelers you see, didn't get to stay at low levels long enough to absorb anything useful. Content should be available (like the devs seem to have intended) for new players to learn with. Even queues. Red Alerts aren't really the same.
While there may be other ways to experience similar (but not the same) content, again, I point out that the system is saying to level five toons, "Hey! Come over here and join this queue!". The devs clearly intend for them to do so, or they would not be given the invite in the first place. We can have our opinions on who should, or should not do what, but there is a design flaw here that should be obvious to anyone and this flaw hurts players who don't deserve it often enough to create this thread.
The devs made it so the game invites you at about level 3-5, and then the game punishes you for going where you were invited, if you have the misfortune of arriving at the same time as a pack of heavy hitters. That warrants a change if only for ethical reasons. It is wrong to invite someone then punish them for showing up.
It should be obvious. Isn't it obvious to you?
Qapla
Learning? Learning? You got player(s) no matter what level they are don't learn, or refuse to learn! So, no matter what level you open something up to these kinds of people, it just really wouldn't matter. So, again I repeat, there should not be any mission queues made available, till players are in the range of lv 20 - 30!!!
You know the old saying, that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, well same applies to some of the players in this game!
Not quite related to the whole theme of the AFK-penalty mechanics, but I've just run THREE Mirror Invasions in a row with at last one person AFKing through most or all of the round. I'm being told that the AFK-penalty mechanics aren't even implemented in MI, so given that this is just the second day of fourteen runs, that sure seems to be something great for which to look forward.
Unlike some people, I myself do not care to test that theory!
I can't leave this system unchallenged just because a few people fit your example. Many would benefit, many do benefit, and you do not seem to take them into consideration. For the few it doesn't matter for, we certainly have many it does matter for. Your basically saying that since some kids are learning impaired, then don't let anyone start school till they are 12 years old. That is clearly not the right way to resolve this issue.
I would also have to challenge the system on the grounds that a casual player who isn't very interested in maximizing their stats is still a legitimate customer of Cryptic/STO, and they have an equally legitimate right to access the content without being punished for participating. I am glad to support those who wish to have access to content merely because they are customers. I am by default always in favor of changes that increase what each of us has available to choose from in the game. Make the game more awesome for more people!
I am against removing access to content just to satisfy a minority. I am against punishing innocent players of any skill level, just to satisfy a minority. The current system only favors a minority. Some of that minority appear to be fine with a system that hands out unjust punishment and I think it isn't to hard to read something into that.
Some players may not "drink" the water. That doesn't excuse draining the lake in spite of everyone else who does.
Qapla
I'm sorry, but a good majority of the so called casual players, are most likely not the huge cash cows Cryptic would prefer, and even less so of an actual time consumer in game playing!
So, even though they can and may be potential spenders, the likelyhood of them being so, is most likely small at best!
As for players learninf capacity in this game, some learn quickly, others slowly, and even some very slowly - not at all.
Those who should be learning, don't take it upon themselves to do so, don't read the mission objectives, don't follow the advise of others often at all if even, don't bother to communicate really at all!
Even a simple "Hey all, I am new to this mission, so be advised as any help would be appreciated"
Instead, nothing but silence, so outside of not communicating, nor most even bothering to research anything online, and failing to read descriptions/interacting with npcs/not paying attention to mission objectives, it's no wonder IMO they remain clueless and drag down people trying to run missions they have no real business in!
It's exactly 99.9% their own fault, the other 0.1% can be blamed on everything else!!!
And, no single pve queue is going to really help with this issue, so again it doesn't need changing except to keep them out of something that isn't really a necessity for them to be in, in the first place!
As for you analogy in regards to the learning impaired, what difference would it make if they went to school later than sooner, if they don't actually learn anything till the age of 12 possibly?
I am not saying they can't, but what if they cannot?
I mean people differ in how quickly they learn, so those who do learn normally - quickly succeed roughly just as fast, while those who learn slowly - not really at all, simply remain behind in succeeding if at all.
I think you maybe surprised at how much the casual players spend in game. I see quite a few of them in some of the pricey lock box ships or the latest T6 ships of popular design (generally not cryptic's own, but the ones on the shows). Remember that while these folks maybe casual gamers, they are trek fans...and trek fans are known to have more money the sense. One fellow didn't know how to convert zen into EC (and when I mentioned selling keys for EC, next thing I know, he spends 100 bucks on keys to sell...bloody WAY more money then sense). As far as game time consumption...you maybe right.
As far as trying to learn on their own...when the game fails to teach you what you need to know, it is a failure in game design. Yes you can go to the wiki or ask and learn...but the game itself should teach you the game mechanics IN GAME as a good game design. That is not the fault of the player (nor is it as small as .1% of the blame). That said, the lack of new players asking for help is bad...but that is because the first experience that new players have to social interaction in this game is ESD. Would YOU ask for any help from people who hang out at ESD? I sure as hell wouldn't. That is also not the player's fault. This game should have some at least part time GM who keep at least the major social zones in check. It has gotten better I admit as of late.
And you keep saying that those low level queues doesn't help any...except I am here to tell you that it did. For ME, personally. So your blanket statement of it helps NOBODY is PATENTLY FALSE. And unless I am completely unique in the way I process information and play games, I sure as hell can't be alone in this experience of this. You keep mentioning how people learn stuff are different rates...well people also learn by different METHODS...and playing early queues is actually a helpful learning tool for some of us. Are you so bloody dense that you think that the only way to learn is YOUR WAY?
When you and others keep saying, "Fails to teach you what you need to know", whom are you speaking for?
Because clearly, there are those I mentioned who learn quickly, it teaches enough!!!
As for asking in general chat for help, yes you can get trolled, but I myself and many others do help, so not an excuse really!
Mission queues, may help some people, but the level of help is dismall at best, especially at such low levels as you described, followed by your own contradiction that the game doesn't really teach anybody anything, so what can they possibly learn a lvl5 in some pve queue, with the game teaching them as you say nothing really?
Really? You figured out ALL the game mechanics on your own...from JUST the game. I find that hard to believe. I am talking MECHANICS here...not a general, you use all one type of energy because the energy specific tac console gives a bigger boost then the weapon type one does...and you should use either beams or cannons because of boff abilities. These are basic things and any gamer worth the name will figure these out. Hell, even some filthy casual might as well. It is pretty basic. But wait...what about those power levels? What about weapon cycling? This game does not explain rather LARGE chunks of how it works. The game doesn't teach you mechanics worth JACK...some just figure out the basics faster then others.
Okay so you and a few other help...but ESD. No really. When I started, I was there for about 30 seconds before I stopped asking questions. Assuming that I could even READ the replies to my questions, it was...yeah...no. Have a few helpful people doesn't help when you have EVERYONE ELSE in the zone being asshats.
And i said the game fails to teach you MECHANICS...How one should be flying and how these queues move through sequences and how one should interact with other players are things that are best learned by PLAYING for many people. You are saying that the game is a great teacher of mechanics and a dismal teacher of player skill...I am saying it's exactly the opposite. Here is the thing...we are BOTH right. We have different ways we learn so we have COMPLETELY different ideas of what is working or not based on our experience. The difference is, I am saying we should work on what worked for me to make it better...you are saying was bad for you so take it away. Who gives you the right to say it is worthless because it doesn't work for YOU? It is worthless to YOU maybe...but I found it quite valueable.
Really? Power levels? Come on, now you are just drawing straws!
What, can someone not figure it out on their own? I did, and I am sure many others have as well!!!
Scroll over them, see that they can be changed, you know because it has nifty symbols assigned to them as well, that are there for more than looks!!!
Weapon cycling, kind of easy to figure out by.........looking at it when it fires when used!!!!!
Pretty blatant easy if you ask me.
Apparently asking for help, and getting some troll remarks, or sifting thru the chat, is just something you are not patient enough to do, in fact I would assume you have little patience at all than.
Figuring out how to fly, hmmmm really, cannot figure out how wsad works? Nope, got to hand it to you, that's a real tuffy, no not really!
So, we should change the game for you, but not for me? Is that it? Have it your way, but not someone elses, because it works both ways, or no way for both!!!
Kind of need take your own advise there, as asking for it to change for yourself, is just as bad as me asking it to change or stay for me!!!
I am merely expressing, how things by my own and many other players observation, shows the lack of people figuring things out for themselves, the lack of researching, the lack of asking others for advise, despite possibly getting some snide/troll remarks in the process.
If they give up too easy, and never bother again to ask, never bother research the large amount of information available, never bother to figure some things out for themselves, than it is in fact their own fault 99.9% of the time!!!
I am going to chime in here with this, I suspect some people are wanting this penalty removed, as to level new DR toons quickly, as to recycle the goods obtained as quickly as possible.
Personally, I would prefer ALL mission queues, to be locked from playability till level 20 or 30 is reached, there is no real reason for anyone level 5 to be running a pve queue in the first place!
I think it is best to say that reasons to do things can be pretty subjective. There is no reason to have pudding if you don't eat your meat. How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!
The low level queues are where learning begins. The best reason to have low level queues is so that you don't have all these inexperienced people mobbing your queues at level 50+ Imagine ISA with people who had the least possible time to learn queues. Take 15 to 25 levels of options away, and you will start to see even more of that sort of thing happenng.
DR toons? Is that Delta Rising? I don't get the reference here. Are they bringing it back? I don't have one, and have no place to put one if I did.
I guess I don't understand why you would want the penalty removed just to quickly level toons. The XP for FA are pretty weak sauce. There are some missions you are given to specifically seek out those queues, and the PVP environment, and they do give more XP but that is about as far as it goes. I'm leveling a bunch of toons right now, and the story missions level you so fast with the bonus XP that you hardly have time to care. Even without the bonus week there are all sorts of other in game boosts.
My goal in leveling right now is to get to level 11+ then switch to another. At 11+ you have access to doff missions that boost your performance with rewards. You should all know which missions I am talking about. I teach people to use those mission rewards wisely. Claim the rewards tactically, so the timer runs consistently with your activities in game. If your doing book-keeping for your Fleet, don't claim the reward that boosts your weapons just yet. Wait an hour till you are going into story or queues so you maximize it. That sort of thing.
Once I have access to dith, and doffs, I could level a toon a lot more slowly, and be just fine. Speed leveling has to be for a definite goal, and not the goal in and of itself. You should never speed level any toon to '60' just to get there fast. Bad idea. Speed leveling teaches very little about the game, and underequips the toon who prematurely reaches that level.
The biggest problem with speed leveling imho is that it only kind of works for the UFP! KDF and Rom toons are actually somewhat mangled in any speed leveling environment since so much of what they have access to is story based.
I had a level 22+ Reman the other day who hadn't been able to do doff missions even though they are normally accessible at level 11, only because the doff system seems to require you have a faction. So many doff missions are faction specific. To be honest, I don't remember seeing any doff missions that were all about being a Rom. Once I had a faction, I pretty much could do the Doff missions.
I think access to queues is going to have a real world experience benefit that far outweighs any 'in game' experience 'points'. XP do not give the player skills. If the player needs skill, they have to do the things they are trying to get skills at. Learn to swing a hammer by swinging a hammer, learn to pitch a ball by pitching. Some things you just have to do to really understand them properly.
Anyway, those are my thoughts here.
Qapla
Low level queues, being where learning begins?
I'm sorry, but we have lvl 50 - 60 player(s), who haven't learned anything much, or haven't bothered to learn enough, so those missions being devoid of playability @ lvl 5, is not some big loss IMO.
If you want social gaming, there are tons of ways to go about it, and not having to rely on pve queues to get it!!!
So, just because you and what few player(s) like you seem to think on this matter, it really doesn't warrant any major changes to the current AFK penalty system at such low levels, considering they shouldn't even be doing mission queues IMO in the first place!
If learning doesn't begin in the low level examples of content, then it has to begin later at higher levels, and those inexperienced people will end up in the level 50+ queues, get afk'd and end up in one of these types of threads. Then we will be talking about removing the afk penalties for the level 50+ queues instead of just a few at the bottom. I honestly think it would make things worse for you in the long run.
Leveling isn't the answer, at least by itself. Some of the leveling is so fast it may well be that some of those 50-60 levelers you see, didn't get to stay at low levels long enough to absorb anything useful. Content should be available (like the devs seem to have intended) for new players to learn with. Even queues. Red Alerts aren't really the same.
While there may be other ways to experience similar (but not the same) content, again, I point out that the system is saying to level five toons, "Hey! Come over here and join this queue!". The devs clearly intend for them to do so, or they would not be given the invite in the first place. We can have our opinions on who should, or should not do what, but there is a design flaw here that should be obvious to anyone and this flaw hurts players who don't deserve it often enough to create this thread.
The devs made it so the game invites you at about level 3-5, and then the game punishes you for going where you were invited, if you have the misfortune of arriving at the same time as a pack of heavy hitters. That warrants a change if only for ethical reasons. It is wrong to invite someone then punish them for showing up.
It should be obvious. Isn't it obvious to you?
Qapla
Learning? Learning? You got player(s) no matter what level they are don't learn, or refuse to learn! So, no matter what level you open something up to these kinds of people, it just really wouldn't matter. So, again I repeat, there should not be any mission queues made available, till players are in the range of lv 20 - 30!!!
You know the old saying, that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, well same applies to some of the players in this game!
Not quite related to the whole theme of the AFK-penalty mechanics, but I've just run THREE Mirror Invasions in a row with at last one person AFKing through most or all of the round. I'm being told that the AFK-penalty mechanics aren't even implemented in MI, so given that this is just the second day of fourteen runs, that sure seems to be something great for which to look forward.
Unlike some people, I myself do not care to test that theory!
I can't leave this system unchallenged just because a few people fit your example. Many would benefit, many do benefit, and you do not seem to take them into consideration. For the few it doesn't matter for, we certainly have many it does matter for. Your basically saying that since some kids are learning impaired, then don't let anyone start school till they are 12 years old. That is clearly not the right way to resolve this issue.
I would also have to challenge the system on the grounds that a casual player who isn't very interested in maximizing their stats is still a legitimate customer of Cryptic/STO, and they have an equally legitimate right to access the content without being punished for participating. I am glad to support those who wish to have access to content merely because they are customers. I am by default always in favor of changes that increase what each of us has available to choose from in the game. Make the game more awesome for more people!
I am against removing access to content just to satisfy a minority. I am against punishing innocent players of any skill level, just to satisfy a minority. The current system only favors a minority. Some of that minority appear to be fine with a system that hands out unjust punishment and I think it isn't to hard to read something into that.
Some players may not "drink" the water. That doesn't excuse draining the lake in spite of everyone else who does.
Qapla
I'm sorry, but a good majority of the so called casual players, are most likely not the huge cash cows Cryptic would prefer, and even less so of an actual time consumer in game playing!
So, even though they can and may be potential spenders, the likelyhood of them being so, is most likely small at best!
As for players learninf capacity in this game, some learn quickly, others slowly, and even some very slowly - not at all.
Those who should be learning, don't take it upon themselves to do so, don't read the mission objectives, don't follow the advise of others often at all if even, don't bother to communicate really at all!
Even a simple "Hey all, I am new to this mission, so be advised as any help would be appreciated"
Instead, nothing but silence, so outside of not communicating, nor most even bothering to research anything online, and failing to read descriptions/interacting with npcs/not paying attention to mission objectives, it's no wonder IMO they remain clueless and drag down people trying to run missions they have no real business in!
It's exactly 99.9% their own fault, the other 0.1% can be blamed on everything else!!!
And, no single pve queue is going to really help with this issue, so again it doesn't need changing except to keep them out of something that isn't really a necessity for them to be in, in the first place!
As for you analogy in regards to the learning impaired, what difference would it make if they went to school later than sooner, if they don't actually learn anything till the age of 12 possibly?
I am not saying they can't, but what if they cannot?
I mean people differ in how quickly they learn, so those who do learn normally - quickly succeed roughly just as fast, while those who learn slowly - not really at all, simply remain behind in succeeding if at all.
I think you maybe surprised at how much the casual players spend in game. I see quite a few of them in some of the pricey lock box ships or the latest T6 ships of popular design (generally not cryptic's own, but the ones on the shows). Remember that while these folks maybe casual gamers, they are trek fans...and trek fans are known to have more money the sense. One fellow didn't know how to convert zen into EC (and when I mentioned selling keys for EC, next thing I know, he spends 100 bucks on keys to sell...bloody WAY more money then sense). As far as game time consumption...you maybe right.
As far as trying to learn on their own...when the game fails to teach you what you need to know, it is a failure in game design. Yes you can go to the wiki or ask and learn...but the game itself should teach you the game mechanics IN GAME as a good game design. That is not the fault of the player (nor is it as small as .1% of the blame). That said, the lack of new players asking for help is bad...but that is because the first experience that new players have to social interaction in this game is ESD. Would YOU ask for any help from people who hang out at ESD? I sure as hell wouldn't. That is also not the player's fault. This game should have some at least part time GM who keep at least the major social zones in check. It has gotten better I admit as of late.
And you keep saying that those low level queues doesn't help any...except I am here to tell you that it did. For ME, personally. So your blanket statement of it helps NOBODY is PATENTLY FALSE. And unless I am completely unique in the way I process information and play games, I sure as hell can't be alone in this experience of this. You keep mentioning how people learn stuff are different rates...well people also learn by different METHODS...and playing early queues is actually a helpful learning tool for some of us. Are you so bloody dense that you think that the only way to learn is YOUR WAY?
When you and others keep saying, "Fails to teach you what you need to know", whom are you speaking for?
Because clearly, there are those I mentioned who learn quickly, it teaches enough!!!
As for asking in general chat for help, yes you can get trolled, but I myself and many others do help, so not an excuse really!
Mission queues, may help some people, but the level of help is dismall at best, especially at such low levels as you described, followed by your own contradiction that the game doesn't really teach anybody anything, so what can they possibly learn a lvl5 in some pve queue, with the game teaching them as you say nothing really?
Really? You figured out ALL the game mechanics on your own...from JUST the game. I find that hard to believe. I am talking MECHANICS here...not a general, you use all one type of energy because the energy specific tac console gives a bigger boost then the weapon type one does...and you should use either beams or cannons because of boff abilities. These are basic things and any gamer worth the name will figure these out. Hell, even some filthy casual might as well. It is pretty basic. But wait...what about those power levels? What about weapon cycling? This game does not explain rather LARGE chunks of how it works. The game doesn't teach you mechanics worth JACK...some just figure out the basics faster then others.
Okay so you and a few other help...but ESD. No really. When I started, I was there for about 30 seconds before I stopped asking questions. Assuming that I could even READ the replies to my questions, it was...yeah...no. Have a few helpful people doesn't help when you have EVERYONE ELSE in the zone being asshats.
And i said the game fails to teach you MECHANICS...How one should be flying and how these queues move through sequences and how one should interact with other players are things that are best learned by PLAYING for many people. You are saying that the game is a great teacher of mechanics and a dismal teacher of player skill...I am saying it's exactly the opposite. Here is the thing...we are BOTH right. We have different ways we learn so we have COMPLETELY different ideas of what is working or not based on our experience. The difference is, I am saying we should work on what worked for me to make it better...you are saying was bad for you so take it away. Who gives you the right to say it is worthless because it doesn't work for YOU? It is worthless to YOU maybe...but I found it quite valueable.
Really? Power levels? Come on, now you are just drawing straws!
What, can someone not figure it out on their own? I did, and I am sure many others have as well!!!
Scroll over them, see that they can be changed, you know because it has nifty symbols assigned to them as well, that are there for more than looks!!!
Weapon cycling, kind of easy to figure out by.........looking at it when it fires when used!!!!!
Pretty blatant easy if you ask me.
Apparently asking for help, and getting some troll remarks, or sifting thru the chat, is just something you are not patient enough to do, in fact I would assume you have little patience at all than.
Figuring out how to fly, hmmmm really, cannot figure out how wsad works? Nope, got to hand it to you, that's a real tuffy, no not really!
So, we should change the game for you, but not for me? Is that it? Have it your way, but not someone elses, because it works both ways, or no way for both!!!
Kind of need take your own advise there, as asking for it to change for yourself, is just as bad as me asking it to change or stay for me!!!
I am merely expressing, how things by my own and many other players observation, shows the lack of people figuring things out for themselves, the lack of researching, the lack of asking others for advise, despite possibly getting some snide/troll remarks in the process.
If they give up too easy, and never bother again to ask, never bother research the large amount of information available, never bother to figure some things out for themselves, than it is in fact their own fault 99.9% of the time!!!
Lets be clear about one thing. Any changes I am talking about have the goal of fixing something that isn't working right. When you fix something you have to change at least the part of it that needed the fixing to begin with. Any repair is a change. A repair is something the Devs do all the time (or try to) and all this thread should be about is getting a workable repair idea, and then trying to get it to the Devs to implement it. Again, when I say I am against a change then what I mean is that I am against making a broken penalty system even more prominent or even more broken. I am against taking content out of a game, especially when we have all seen good content just go away, and not come back.
I don't see this as a perfect example of it "works both ways" because I am not against you, shadowwraith77, trying to make a thread about something you have identified as broken. However I am against removing content, or making content a pain in the neck to participate in. I see removing access entirely for 20 odd levels as the same as removing content for those players. The things you mention wanting to change do not fix the broken AFK penalty, but they would remove content that does help some players get more experience, and learn to play better, which will only serve to aggravate the current issue, not resolve it.
The AFK penalty was itself a change. It was added well after game launch. People lobbied for something to stop leeches (supposedly ... however it seems as likely to me that some people just didn't want to hang with their 'inferiors'.) The Devs created the penalty, and expanded on it later. I'm sure it always could give a false-positive penalty for a DC, only now it gives false positives because of power creep DPS as well. It is a system that is not just faulty, it is going to get worse over time!
We can debate the actual possible numbers of people affected all day long. Looking at other F2P models can give us some idea of how many pay to play for anything, and while the majority in most models do not pay they are still important. Many will "convert" and become buyers. Removing barriers to the enjoyment of content is important in getting these players to get emotionally invested. Most people who come into this as a F2P model will not be interested in purchasing at first. They are still important just to keep the MMO alive with activity, but when they get emotionally invested they can switch to being purchasers.
I imagine you do make "purchases" in the game? You might be a 'whale', a 'dolphin', or a 'minnow'. I doubt you are a 'freeloader', (a term used in the industry.) Whatever nickname they assign to you, you are important to the business model. It is important to this kind of marketing system to give lots of love to the 'freeloaders'. Placing barriers that cause a negative emotion, or only just blocking access to content that provides excitement, can delay, or even prevent the setting of the emotional hook you need to get them to stay active. If they do not stay active, they will not 'convert', and the business fails to grow.
'Whales' tend to be more social, and casual players. The business still needs to be friendly, inclusive and accepting to all players, and provide a positive emotional hook. Long term 'conversion' depends on it.
For people who are interested I have some links that may help in understanding why we need the new players even if they are 'freeloaders'. Check these out. The second is a slide presentation. Enjoy.
We are looking at the AFK penalty, and discussing the way the system gives false positives to a variety of players. Some of this discussion is in favor of fixing the system. Some of it is in favor of limiting access for new and low level players more that it already is. Some of the discussion is against any changes at all.
I am in the camp favoring change to improve the game for new/low level players by removing the risk of false positives for 9 out of 38 queues.
Remove afk's for the nine queues that allow levels below 50 to enter. Add a top performer special reward (maybe?)
Create a 'mission' that tallies your (X) successive full completions of a normal mission before it rewards you with advancement.
Possibly give more passive (skill?) boosts to low levels mixed with high levels so they carry their own weight better.
Except for needing a 'reward' for access, and re-adding auto fails, don't change the top 29 queues requiring level 50+ to enter.
Possibly provide a score that the player may choose to look at at their own discretion. So no public humiliations of new people.
These changes would give players nine queues to learn in, without risk of being forced into an AFK penalty by much superior players, and would provide a little more of a speed bump before players with less developed ability can access Advanced or Elite difficulty queues. Everyone gets something they want in this scenario.
Also for those who are curious there are these two links which give a kind of overview of what types of customers there are in an MMO, and why even the least of them, so called 'freeloaders' are important.
I can tell you already, the afk penalty can stay put, but a quick fix to those who queue up for low level missions, it need either block access to advanced or elite [which elite it does], or they need block access to higher level players from jumping in [which is difficult on 2 of them, as they are a source of fleet marks].
Fix the overall mission status availability via level/difficulty restrictions based on level differences, and it can work wonders in regards to low level new players being forced penalized, but you cannot completely cut off high level players from obtaining the same rewards from those missions, without making similar/same missions available to them as well.
I can tell you already, the afk penalty can stay put, but a quick fix to those who queue up for low level missions, it need either block access to advanced or elite [which elite it does], or they need block access to higher level players from jumping in [which is difficult on 2 of them, as they are a source of fleet marks].
Fix the overall mission status availability via level/difficulty restrictions based on level differences, and it can work wonders in regards to low level new players being forced penalized, but you cannot completely cut off high level players from obtaining the same rewards from those missions, without making similar/same missions available to them as well.
What you just said has some appeal for me. Truth be known, if we had more level gating and also some way to not punish a player for a random disconnect, I could be fine with what you said ... I think!
New players should do something to serve as a right of passage to Advanced and Elite, so I think we agree there.
The afk penalty is only bad when it causes false positives. Like disconnects or mixing to high with to low. So if we reduced mixing with more level gating like 5-9, 10-19, and a 'right of passage' (mission?), then that should make the afk for dps less of a problem, maybe even no problem at all. Then at least when the disconnect becomes the reason for an afk it has a context that isn't slamming someones performance. Anyone can get disconnected, and it isn't going to come across the same as being told you were afk when you weren't. I mean logically a disconnect means you aren't playing at the moment, so I think it will make more sense to even new players.
My main reason for thinking we should remove the penalty for the lower nine has been based on two things. One is that higher level players will want to game with lower level friends, and that would allow them to to do so without one friend afk'ing the other by accident. The other is what you said about not getting high level toons to avoid the lower level missions, specifically the two that give Fleet marks. I see people wanting those easy marks at all levels, so I agree it could be difficult.
I know it isn't to hard for them to add or remove the afk penalty for any queues they want to. I wonder if they can attach afk eligibility to the character rather than the queue? What about if they made the afk penalty a feature of the character? Like the Mirror invasion doesn't have afk penalties options right now. OK, so we add the options back in, but not to the zone/mission. We add then to a character who is of sufficient level to have no excuses.
In this example the afk is always on in any public battle when the character is level 'X' or above, period. Level 5-60 can mix wherever they want to, and the level 5-'X' toons can be safe from false positives. Leeches can milk this to a degree, but I think we can all mostly agree they probably already do milk the current system in ways we can only guess at. The biggest selling point in regards to dealing with leeches is that they can only exploit this at low levels. Eventually the training wheels will go away for them, and then they are stuck with afk eligibility as a feature of their character from then on, no matter the battle.
As far as the level this would apply at, I am thinking since level 40+ is when T5 ships become available that is the 'X" I would pick. Negative effects from speed leveling will hopefully have smoothed out by that point also. At T5, T5U and T6 decent end game capability exists so that even poor players have a solid platform to go in with. If they ever raise the level cap again, I suppose I would move the 'X' an appropriate distance further up. I have a new 'nugget' in my KDF fleet who has leveled three toons in a week to end game levels. I think '40' will work.
I suppose a leech could delete a toon and create a new one, but then what about the rewards they were earning? They could move stuff around on their account before deleting but it would be a pain, and they would never get much that was good, as they are missing out on most of the end game content by that point. Leeching would become more of a job than just playing the game. Maybe. I like to think it would work.
So short version. New idea! The queues don't change at all, except that afk is not a public mission feature, it is a character feature in public mission zones. A character is immune (?) to afk penalties until reaching level 'X'. At level 'X' any public battle like Red Alerts, or Mirror invasions as well as any queued content, will treat the character as being eligible for an afk penalty by the current measure.
All I would wish for was better scoring for crowd control, healing, and team boosting abilities when they score these. I still think a place to look at your own personal scores would still be useful to many players.
Like I have tried to state previously, I am not against low level players being offered missions restricted to better benefit them, and prevent over level players from tromping in and ruining their day, but some of those missions can be 1 of few to obtain certain rewards like fleet marks.
So, a different 1 need be made available to them, restricting low level players from joining the higher level platform of the missions, this would prevent a lot of the headaches in regards to low level players not being able to keep up dps wise!
However, we have seen players using freshly made delta recruits, power level them to 10, move resources to other toons, than restart the process over again continuously.
The benefits they gain now, I believe has been halted to level 20, but it still probably doesn't prevent them from still doin this, as 20 isn't super hard to achieve quickly!
As for leechers, a bunch are doing this prbably as some means of a job, why else would we have gold site spammers constantly?
Others, are most likely doing it so they need not apply any effort to advance, let others carry them to rewards, which IMO is no better than any other!
But, ultimately, I still prefer the penalty system to stay, and never be removed unless a more perfect system can be had!
Like I have tried to state previously, I am not against low level players being offered missions restricted to better benefit them, and prevent over level players from tromping in and ruining their day, but some of those missions can be 1 of few to obtain certain rewards like fleet marks.
So, a different 1 need be made available to them, restricting low level players from joining the higher level platform of the missions, this would prevent a lot of the headaches in regards to low level players not being able to keep up dps wise!
However, we have seen players using freshly made delta recruits, power level them to 10, move resources to other toons, than restart the process over again continuously.
The benefits they gain now, I believe has been halted to level 20, but it still probably doesn't prevent them from still doin this, as 20 isn't super hard to achieve quickly!
As for leechers, a bunch are doing this prbably as some means of a job, why else would we have gold site spammers constantly?
Others, are most likely doing it so they need not apply any effort to advance, let others carry them to rewards, which IMO is no better than any other!
But, ultimately, I still prefer the penalty system to stay, and never be removed unless a more perfect system can be had!
I think I understand what you are saying but let me review this a little.
I thought that Delta Recruits were all done with. I was away just as it started, and the event was over by the time I got back. I have started new characters since then, and did not see anything about "Delta Recruit" in at any point in the process. So I may be mistaken, but I don't think you can get Delta Recruits anymore. I will look into that. If it is over with, how can DR's possibly affect anything?
Power leveling to 10 with an ordinary toon is kind of pointless imho. I had the opportunity to do some of it recently, and I can't say I recommend it. My intial leveling goal is to get to 11 so I can use doff missions to boost my abilities when I get good rewards. Also I can get quick dilithium for doing the Academy questions. Once I am there I like to play through a lot of different content and enjoy it. I do grind, we all have to do it, but I much prefer just playing the game. Now I'fd have to ask you t take my word, but I see no special benefit to starting a new toon lately, and if that is the case, how does starting a new toon matter in any way that helps leeches?
I don't think there is much risk to attaching conditions for the afk penalty to levels. Everyone has to level if they do anything, even leeching. If Delta recruits are done, doesn't it make sense that leeches would not have anything to gain by restarting new toons, except to get a bunch of low tier drops? That they could only get good drops if they follow through and just get to the end game? If they have to get to the end game to get drops/rewards worth having, then doesn't that make it more valuable to have the afk in place at say '40'+, since the leeches will have to move up in levels?
Doesn't it make sense to keep the early game content as positive for new players as possible, to 'lure' them into staying active?
Gold sites spammers ... yeah probably a job, but then that does mean they are using much more dedicated means to leech and probably avoid the afk a lot through knowledge and experience, or they would go away. Which again seems to imply that the afk penalty is mostly only affecting new/inexperienced players, though I admit, neither of us has any true numbers to look at. We can agree they are successful in spite of the penalty, and so it kind of seems pointless to worry about them to much.
I understand not wanting to change something if it even kind of works a little, unless you know what you get next will work even better. I think I have given some good ways to improve things. I hesitate to say 'perfect' or 'more perfect' just because we can never have either. However we can have 'better than before' which is still what I am trying to accomplish in following through with this topic. Besides level gating, where do you see us coming close to agreement?
I still think that disabling the afk for low level toons can work. I still would argue that everyone needs to level, and can't avoid it without deleting and restarting a character anyway (Delta Recruits may be an exception if I am wrong about them not being over with). Basically it seems like a simple fix, and to me at least, it sounds better than before.
I guess my basic questions boil down to these;
What is the real harm in disabling the afk for low level toons? It would barely affect most content (as far as I can see).
If we disable it for low levels toons, doesn't it balance back out if we enable the afk for more areas than it is active in now, so as to catch more of the jerks who coast along on any end game content?
Delta recruits are done(for now) but at level 20 on a new toon you can claim all the rewards that you got while leveling your Delta recruit, including alot of marks and some decent r&d materials. At this point, with all the afk'ing going on in the Mirror event, just get rid of the damn penalty altogether, then we can all just sit there and do nothing. This is just total BS and Cryptic needs to fix this afk issue in MI immediately. After seeing all the leeches in this event, removing the afk for low level toons seems to be a good idea. Why just let the higher level leechers do absolutely nothing, while a newb, who's actually flying and fighting in one of the low level queues, gets hammered for it?
Delta recruits are done(for now) but at level 20 on a new toon you can claim all the rewards that you got while leveling your Delta recruit, including alot of marks and some decent r&d materials. At this point, with all the afk'ing going on in the Mirror event, just get rid of the damn penalty altogether, then we can all just sit there and do nothing. This is just total BS and Cryptic needs to fix this afk issue in MI immediately. After seeing all the leeches in this event, removing the afk for low level toons seems to be a good idea. Why just let the higher level leechers do absolutely nothing, while a newb, who's actually flying and fighting in one of the low level queues, gets hammered for it?
I wish I had made a DR toon. Ah well. I can see why a dedicated leech might rinse and repeat. Actually I think somebody is doing that with new Roms for some reason. I can't figure out why but the Rom start map' Virinat' is always busy. I only noticed because I started about half a dozen Roms myself in the last few months. Anyway, it strikes me as weird.
What you are saying about MI is shocking? What is wrong out there? Do you have an estimate of how many players are leeching, say one in five, one in three? THIS IS A LEVEL 60 MISSION! How many level 60 leeches are there?
It does seem especially pointless to punish low levelers in this context.
The last idea I was floating was to link AFK to level, so no matter the public mission zone, there would be an afk, but for those below level 40 it would be disabled on a toon by toon basis. Level 40+ would have to perform in Red Alerts or the Mirror event for example.
I just did another one of those fleet alert missions where I was nonstop firing at enemies and having a good time, only to receive a 2 hour penalty for being AFK. I know the Devs are never going to address this, but just because one person goes in with an overpowered ship that devastates everything on the screen shouldn't result in every other player being penalized for not doing enough damage.
Yeah, I know no one cares. And I know the Devs don't care. But man, that is so freaking annoying when you're just trying to have fun in the game. I love doing fleet alerts. They're probably the most fun I get out of the game. So 2 hours of my night not being able to do one basically means having to wait until the next day due to the few hours I have to play this game at night.
Yeah, I know. Nobody cares.
So things here have quieted down a bit, but this remains a topic that will be resurfacing and so it remains necessary to come up with a good plan. Since you are the OP here, does which options sound good to you in particular?
Which options do you think would have helped you most?
Delta recruits are done(for now) but at level 20 on a new toon you can claim all the rewards that you got while leveling your Delta recruit, including alot of marks and some decent r&d materials. At this point, with all the afk'ing going on in the Mirror event, just get rid of the damn penalty altogether, then we can all just sit there and do nothing. This is just total BS and Cryptic needs to fix this afk issue in MI immediately. After seeing all the leeches in this event, removing the afk for low level toons seems to be a good idea. Why just let the higher level leechers do absolutely nothing, while a newb, who's actually flying and fighting in one of the low level queues, gets hammered for it?
Have things been consistently bad since you last posted about the Mirror Invasion leeches?
At least one afk'er per toon every day(6 toons). Fortunately I'm finished with 3 of them so I don't have to see them much anymore. Glad when this event is over, and I hope Cryptic does something to fix the stf before rolling it out again. Not just afk'ers but the whole thing needs to be re-done, maybe after starbase defenses are up to 5, then let's move on. Too much wasted time, imho.
What you are saying about MI is shocking? What is wrong out there? Do you have an estimate of how many players are leeching, say one in five, one in three? THIS IS A LEVEL 60 MISSION! How many level 60 leeches are there?
Ah, but here's a thing: People in Mirror are not leeching. When people leech, they're intending to exploit your labor for a reward, without contributing to it. If you do not provide this labor for them, they don't get a reward. So when you warp out on them, they're inconvenienced by this. This is NOT true of Mirror, where people are executing a strategy to gain their reward INDEPENDENTLY OF YOU by waiting out a clock, as actions taken or not taken cannot change the outcome. If you warp out on the "AFKers", who, in most cases, are not even AFK, and are actually chatting or filling out dailies, they won't care in the slightest, they intend to the complete the mission their way, with or without you.
This is a key difference between the leech, a reprehensible creature who is simply a parasite, and the Mirror Camper, who is executing an intelligent and efficient strategy based on patience. One depends on your action to achieve a reward, the other depends only on his own selectively chosen inaction, and not on you. You can't do a full-team campout of other missions, you CAN and people DO intentionally perform a 5-man "AFK" of Mirror, just so they don't have to listen to the nattering of others.
OK, I think I get what you are trying to say, but isn't 'camping' going against the spirit of things just a little?
OK, I think I get what you are trying to say, but isn't 'camping' going against the spirit of things just a little?
Qapla
in min. no. in min the only thing to do is minimise bordom for the duration of the timegate that leaves you camping anyway if the team closes the rifts, then gank the dread at the end.
for min a, the best possible thing to do is have the entire team park on one generator to get the defence level up, then kill the dread. this is specifically due to the poor design of the mission itself, not any player or how they intend to go about it.
For once, we agree on something, skull: poorly designed mission. Just awful, imo. This mission has the potential to be a good one but the implementation is just not up to par. I'm not blaming players for this one, but the fact remains that the game is meant to be PLAYED, not just afk'ed. In all honesty, the mission is boring and a complete waste of time(except for rewards after 14 days). I realize that you basically get nothing for closing portals, but at least play the mission the way it was intended. I don't think the devs fully realized the exploit they caused by their poor design. Hopefully, this mission gets a hard look by them when this event is finished, and they will re-think the parameters of said mission.
If players want to afk, do it in a private group, not in a pug where some are still learning piloting skills and teamwork(one player grabs aggro while someone else closes the portal), at least the mission is ok for that, if nothing else. If you can't find a private queue to afk, then come ready to play, which is what was intended, though sadly the devs missed the mark on this one horribly.
OK, I think I get what you are trying to say, but isn't 'camping' going against the spirit of things just a little?
Qapla
in min. no. in min the only thing to do is minimise bordom for the duration of the timegate that leaves you camping anyway if the team closes the rifts, then gank the dread at the end.
for min a, the best possible thing to do is have the entire team park on one generator to get the defence level up, then kill the dread. this is specifically due to the poor design of the mission itself, not any player or how they intend to go about it.
Yeah there seem to be a lot of things broken. I never worried to much about it till I started losing players. Threads like this (different topics) pop up all over and you wonder who is paying attention to all this stuff that doesn't work right. Heck! I can't even get ARC to log me in 3/4ths of the time.
Comments
I actually wish there was no speed leveling. We see this very similarly.
Qapla
Learning? Learning? You got player(s) no matter what level they are don't learn, or refuse to learn! So, no matter what level you open something up to these kinds of people, it just really wouldn't matter. So, again I repeat, there should not be any mission queues made available, till players are in the range of lv 20 - 30!!!
You know the old saying, that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, well same applies to some of the players in this game!
Unlike some people, I myself do not care to test that theory!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I can't leave this system unchallenged just because a few people fit your example. Many would benefit, many do benefit, and you do not seem to take them into consideration. For the few it doesn't matter for, we certainly have many it does matter for. Your basically saying that since some kids are learning impaired, then don't let anyone start school till they are 12 years old. That is clearly not the right way to resolve this issue.
I would also have to challenge the system on the grounds that a casual player who isn't very interested in maximizing their stats is still a legitimate customer of Cryptic/STO, and they have an equally legitimate right to access the content without being punished for participating. I am glad to support those who wish to have access to content merely because they are customers. I am by default always in favor of changes that increase what each of us has available to choose from in the game. Make the game more awesome for more people!
I am against removing access to content just to satisfy a minority. I am against punishing innocent players of any skill level, just to satisfy a minority. The current system only favors a minority. Some of that minority appear to be fine with a system that hands out unjust punishment and I think it isn't to hard to read something into that.
Some players may not "drink" the water. That doesn't excuse draining the lake in spite of everyone else who does.
Qapla
I am in the camp favoring change to improve the game for new/low level players by removing the risk of false positives for 9 out of 38 queues.
These changes would give players nine queues to learn in, without risk of being forced into an AFK penalty by much superior players, and would provide a little more of a speed bump before players with less developed ability can access Advanced or Elite difficulty queues. Everyone gets something they want in this scenario.
I personally welcome any who want to chime in.
Qapla
I'm sorry, but a good majority of the so called casual players, are most likely not the huge cash cows Cryptic would prefer, and even less so of an actual time consumer in game playing!
So, even though they can and may be potential spenders, the likelyhood of them being so, is most likely small at best!
As for players learning capacity in this game, some learn quickly, others slowly, and even some very slowly - not at all.
Those who should be learning, don't take it upon themselves to do so, don't read the mission objectives, don't follow the advise of others often at all if even, don't bother to communicate really at all!
Even a simple "Hey all, I am new to this mission, so be advised as any help would be appreciated"
Instead, nothing but silence, so outside of not communicating, nor most even bothering to research anything online, and failing to read descriptions/interacting with npcs/not paying attention to mission objectives, it's no wonder IMO they remain clueless and drag down people trying to run missions they have no real business in!
It's exactly 99.9% their own fault, the other 0.1% can be blamed on everything else!!!
And, no single pve queue is going to really help with this issue, so again it doesn't need changing except to keep them out of something that isn't really a necessity for them to be in, in the first place!
As for you analogy in regards to the learning impaired, what difference would it make if they went to school later than sooner, if they don't actually learn anything till the age of 12 possibly?
I am not saying they can't, but what if they cannot?
I mean people differ in how quickly they learn, so those who do learn normally - quickly succeed roughly just as fast, while those who learn slowly - not really at all, simply remain behind in succeeding if at all.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
When you and others keep saying, "Fails to teach you what you need to know", whom are you speaking for?
Because clearly, there are those I mentioned who learn quickly, it teaches enough, not everything, but enough!!!
As for asking in general chat for help, yes you can get trolled, but I myself and many others do help, so not an excuse really!
Mission queues, may help some people, but the level of help is ok - minimal at best, especially at such low levels as you described, followed by your own contradiction that the game doesn't really teach anybody anything, so what can they possibly learn at lvl5 in some pve queue, with the game teaching them as you say nothing really?
I mean, does your alarm clock tell you how to make coffee, prep the over, how to cook a roast?
Some things are just left out, and for the player(s) to figure out on their own, or ask advise, or research!
If they don't do this, than they sit lost I guess, blaming the game developers.
Part of the fun, or at least it supposed to be, is figuring things out by other means.
After all what good is a rubix cube, if it tells you exactly how to solve it?
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Really? Power levels? Come on, now you are just drawing straws!
What, can someone not figure it out on their own? I did, and I am sure many others have as well!!!
Scroll over them, see that they can be changed, you know because it has nifty symbols assigned to them as well, that are there for more than looks!!!
Weapon cycling, kind of easy to figure out by.........looking at it when it fires when used!!!!!
Pretty blatant easy if you ask me.
Apparently asking for help, and getting some troll remarks, or sifting thru the chat, is just something you are not patient enough to do, in fact I would assume you have little patience at all than.
Figuring out how to fly, hmmmm really, cannot figure out how wsad works? Nope, got to hand it to you, that's a real tuffy, no not really!
So, we should change the game for you, but not for me? Is that it? Have it your way, but not someone elses, because it works both ways, or no way for both!!!
Kind of need take your own advise there, as asking for it to change for yourself, is just as bad as me asking it to change or stay for me!!!
I am merely expressing, how things by my own and many other players observation, shows the lack of people figuring things out for themselves, the lack of researching, the lack of asking others for advise, despite possibly getting some snide/troll remarks in the process.
If they give up too easy, and never bother again to ask, never bother research the large amount of information available, never bother to figure some things out for themselves, than it is in fact their own fault 99.9% of the time!!!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Lets be clear about one thing. Any changes I am talking about have the goal of fixing something that isn't working right. When you fix something you have to change at least the part of it that needed the fixing to begin with. Any repair is a change. A repair is something the Devs do all the time (or try to) and all this thread should be about is getting a workable repair idea, and then trying to get it to the Devs to implement it. Again, when I say I am against a change then what I mean is that I am against making a broken penalty system even more prominent or even more broken. I am against taking content out of a game, especially when we have all seen good content just go away, and not come back.
I don't see this as a perfect example of it "works both ways" because I am not against you, shadowwraith77, trying to make a thread about something you have identified as broken. However I am against removing content, or making content a pain in the neck to participate in. I see removing access entirely for 20 odd levels as the same as removing content for those players. The things you mention wanting to change do not fix the broken AFK penalty, but they would remove content that does help some players get more experience, and learn to play better, which will only serve to aggravate the current issue, not resolve it.
The AFK penalty was itself a change. It was added well after game launch. People lobbied for something to stop leeches (supposedly ... however it seems as likely to me that some people just didn't want to hang with their 'inferiors'.) The Devs created the penalty, and expanded on it later. I'm sure it always could give a false-positive penalty for a DC, only now it gives false positives because of power creep DPS as well. It is a system that is not just faulty, it is going to get worse over time!
We can debate the actual possible numbers of people affected all day long. Looking at other F2P models can give us some idea of how many pay to play for anything, and while the majority in most models do not pay they are still important. Many will "convert" and become buyers. Removing barriers to the enjoyment of content is important in getting these players to get emotionally invested. Most people who come into this as a F2P model will not be interested in purchasing at first. They are still important just to keep the MMO alive with activity, but when they get emotionally invested they can switch to being purchasers.
I imagine you do make "purchases" in the game? You might be a 'whale', a 'dolphin', or a 'minnow'. I doubt you are a 'freeloader', (a term used in the industry.) Whatever nickname they assign to you, you are important to the business model. It is important to this kind of marketing system to give lots of love to the 'freeloaders'. Placing barriers that cause a negative emotion, or only just blocking access to content that provides excitement, can delay, or even prevent the setting of the emotional hook you need to get them to stay active. If they do not stay active, they will not 'convert', and the business fails to grow.
'Whales' tend to be more social, and casual players. The business still needs to be friendly, inclusive and accepting to all players, and provide a positive emotional hook. Long term 'conversion' depends on it.
For people who are interested I have some links that may help in understanding why we need the new players even if they are 'freeloaders'. Check these out. The second is a slide presentation. Enjoy.
http://www.gamesbrief.com/2011/11/whales-dolphins-and-minnows-the-beating-heart-of-a-free-to-play-game/
http://www.slideshare.net/nicholaslovell/whales-power-laws-and-the-future-of-media
Qapla.
I am in the camp favoring change to improve the game for new/low level players by removing the risk of false positives for 9 out of 38 queues.
These changes would give players nine queues to learn in, without risk of being forced into an AFK penalty by much superior players, and would provide a little more of a speed bump before players with less developed ability can access Advanced or Elite difficulty queues. Everyone gets something they want in this scenario.
Also for those who are curious there are these two links which give a kind of overview of what types of customers there are in an MMO, and why even the least of them, so called 'freeloaders' are important.
http://www.gamesbrief.com/2011/11/whales-dolphins-and-minnows-the-beating-heart-of-a-free-to-play-game/
http://www.slideshare.net/nicholaslovell/whales-power-laws-and-the-future-of-media
It has been an interesting discussion, please join in.
Qapla
Fix the overall mission status availability via level/difficulty restrictions based on level differences, and it can work wonders in regards to low level new players being forced penalized, but you cannot completely cut off high level players from obtaining the same rewards from those missions, without making similar/same missions available to them as well.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
What you just said has some appeal for me. Truth be known, if we had more level gating and also some way to not punish a player for a random disconnect, I could be fine with what you said ... I think!
New players should do something to serve as a right of passage to Advanced and Elite, so I think we agree there.
The afk penalty is only bad when it causes false positives. Like disconnects or mixing to high with to low. So if we reduced mixing with more level gating like 5-9, 10-19, and a 'right of passage' (mission?), then that should make the afk for dps less of a problem, maybe even no problem at all. Then at least when the disconnect becomes the reason for an afk it has a context that isn't slamming someones performance. Anyone can get disconnected, and it isn't going to come across the same as being told you were afk when you weren't. I mean logically a disconnect means you aren't playing at the moment, so I think it will make more sense to even new players.
My main reason for thinking we should remove the penalty for the lower nine has been based on two things. One is that higher level players will want to game with lower level friends, and that would allow them to to do so without one friend afk'ing the other by accident. The other is what you said about not getting high level toons to avoid the lower level missions, specifically the two that give Fleet marks. I see people wanting those easy marks at all levels, so I agree it could be difficult.
I know it isn't to hard for them to add or remove the afk penalty for any queues they want to. I wonder if they can attach afk eligibility to the character rather than the queue? What about if they made the afk penalty a feature of the character?
In this example the afk is always on in any public battle when the character is level 'X' or above, period. Level 5-60 can mix wherever they want to, and the level 5-'X' toons can be safe from false positives. Leeches can milk this to a degree, but I think we can all mostly agree they probably already do milk the current system in ways we can only guess at. The biggest selling point in regards to dealing with leeches is that they can only exploit this at low levels. Eventually the training wheels will go away for them, and then they are stuck with afk eligibility as a feature of their character from then on, no matter the battle.
As far as the level this would apply at, I am thinking since level 40+ is when T5 ships become available that is the 'X" I would pick. Negative effects from speed leveling will hopefully have smoothed out by that point also. At T5, T5U and T6 decent end game capability exists so that even poor players have a solid platform to go in with. If they ever raise the level cap again, I suppose I would move the 'X' an appropriate distance further up. I have a new 'nugget' in my KDF fleet who has leveled three toons in a week to end game levels. I think '40' will work.
I suppose a leech could delete a toon and create a new one, but then what about the rewards they were earning? They could move stuff around on their account before deleting but it would be a pain, and they would never get much that was good, as they are missing out on most of the end game content by that point. Leeching would become more of a job than just playing the game. Maybe. I like to think it would work.
So short version. New idea! The queues don't change at all, except that afk is not a public mission feature, it is a character feature in public mission zones. A character is immune (?) to afk penalties until reaching level 'X'. At level 'X' any public battle like Red Alerts, or Mirror invasions as well as any queued content, will treat the character as being eligible for an afk penalty by the current measure.
All I would wish for was better scoring for crowd control, healing, and team boosting abilities when they score these. I still think a place to look at your own personal scores would still be useful to many players.
So what does anyone think of old or new ideas?
Qapla
So, a different 1 need be made available to them, restricting low level players from joining the higher level platform of the missions, this would prevent a lot of the headaches in regards to low level players not being able to keep up dps wise!
However, we have seen players using freshly made delta recruits, power level them to 10, move resources to other toons, than restart the process over again continuously.
The benefits they gain now, I believe has been halted to level 20, but it still probably doesn't prevent them from still doin this, as 20 isn't super hard to achieve quickly!
As for leechers, a bunch are doing this prbably as some means of a job, why else would we have gold site spammers constantly?
Others, are most likely doing it so they need not apply any effort to advance, let others carry them to rewards, which IMO is no better than any other!
But, ultimately, I still prefer the penalty system to stay, and never be removed unless a more perfect system can be had!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I think I understand what you are saying but let me review this a little.
I thought that Delta Recruits were all done with. I was away just as it started, and the event was over by the time I got back. I have started new characters since then, and did not see anything about "Delta Recruit" in at any point in the process. So I may be mistaken, but I don't think you can get Delta Recruits anymore. I will look into that. If it is over with, how can DR's possibly affect anything?
Power leveling to 10 with an ordinary toon is kind of pointless imho. I had the opportunity to do some of it recently, and I can't say I recommend it. My intial leveling goal is to get to 11 so I can use doff missions to boost my abilities when I get good rewards. Also I can get quick dilithium for doing the Academy questions. Once I am there I like to play through a lot of different content and enjoy it. I do grind, we all have to do it, but I much prefer just playing the game. Now I'fd have to ask you t take my word, but I see no special benefit to starting a new toon lately, and if that is the case, how does starting a new toon matter in any way that helps leeches?
I don't think there is much risk to attaching conditions for the afk penalty to levels. Everyone has to level if they do anything, even leeching. If Delta recruits are done, doesn't it make sense that leeches would not have anything to gain by restarting new toons, except to get a bunch of low tier drops? That they could only get good drops if they follow through and just get to the end game? If they have to get to the end game to get drops/rewards worth having, then doesn't that make it more valuable to have the afk in place at say '40'+, since the leeches will have to move up in levels?
Doesn't it make sense to keep the early game content as positive for new players as possible, to 'lure' them into staying active?
Gold sites spammers ... yeah probably a job, but then that does mean they are using much more dedicated means to leech and probably avoid the afk a lot through knowledge and experience, or they would go away. Which again seems to imply that the afk penalty is mostly only affecting new/inexperienced players, though I admit, neither of us has any true numbers to look at. We can agree they are successful in spite of the penalty, and so it kind of seems pointless to worry about them to much.
I understand not wanting to change something if it even kind of works a little, unless you know what you get next will work even better. I think I have given some good ways to improve things. I hesitate to say 'perfect' or 'more perfect' just because we can never have either. However we can have 'better than before' which is still what I am trying to accomplish in following through with this topic. Besides level gating, where do you see us coming close to agreement?
I still think that disabling the afk for low level toons can work. I still would argue that everyone needs to level, and can't avoid it without deleting and restarting a character anyway (Delta Recruits may be an exception if I am wrong about them not being over with). Basically it seems like a simple fix, and to me at least, it sounds better than before.
I guess my basic questions boil down to these;
What is the real harm in disabling the afk for low level toons? It would barely affect most content (as far as I can see).
If we disable it for low levels toons, doesn't it balance back out if we enable the afk for more areas than it is active in now, so as to catch more of the jerks who coast along on any end game content?
Thanks.
Qapla
I wish I had made a DR toon. Ah well. I can see why a dedicated leech might rinse and repeat. Actually I think somebody is doing that with new Roms for some reason. I can't figure out why but the Rom start map' Virinat' is always busy. I only noticed because I started about half a dozen Roms myself in the last few months. Anyway, it strikes me as weird.
What you are saying about MI is shocking? What is wrong out there? Do you have an estimate of how many players are leeching, say one in five, one in three? THIS IS A LEVEL 60 MISSION! How many level 60 leeches are there?
It does seem especially pointless to punish low levelers in this context.
The last idea I was floating was to link AFK to level, so no matter the public mission zone, there would be an afk, but for those below level 40 it would be disabled on a toon by toon basis. Level 40+ would have to perform in Red Alerts or the Mirror event for example.
Also, how do we get the penalty looked at? We have to take this discussion to here?
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/categories/builds-powers-and-game-mechanics
Or should we keep working on the best sounding idea a while longer?
Ideas
Qapla
Thanks for sharing.
Qapla
So things here have quieted down a bit, but this remains a topic that will be resurfacing and so it remains necessary to come up with a good plan. Since you are the OP here, does which options sound good to you in particular?
Which options do you think would have helped you most?
Qapla
Have things been consistently bad since you last posted about the Mirror Invasion leeches?
Qapla
OK, I think I get what you are trying to say, but isn't 'camping' going against the spirit of things just a little?
Qapla
For once, we agree on something, skull: poorly designed mission. Just awful, imo. This mission has the potential to be a good one but the implementation is just not up to par. I'm not blaming players for this one, but the fact remains that the game is meant to be PLAYED, not just afk'ed. In all honesty, the mission is boring and a complete waste of time(except for rewards after 14 days). I realize that you basically get nothing for closing portals, but at least play the mission the way it was intended. I don't think the devs fully realized the exploit they caused by their poor design. Hopefully, this mission gets a hard look by them when this event is finished, and they will re-think the parameters of said mission.
If players want to afk, do it in a private group, not in a pug where some are still learning piloting skills and teamwork(one player grabs aggro while someone else closes the portal), at least the mission is ok for that, if nothing else. If you can't find a private queue to afk, then come ready to play, which is what was intended, though sadly the devs missed the mark on this one horribly.
Yeah there seem to be a lot of things broken. I never worried to much about it till I started losing players. Threads like this (different topics) pop up all over and you wonder who is paying attention to all this stuff that doesn't work right. Heck! I can't even get ARC to log me in 3/4ths of the time.
Qapla