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T6 Defiant=Total Fail

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  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,204 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    All this talk about cloaks is pointless. Cloaks aren´t even weighted when Cryptic figures out ships stats, They just add it on kdf and rom ships as freebies. In PVP they can be devastating, but in PVE they´re actually detrimental to use beyond the initial decloak boost.

    Cloaks are no laughing matter. At the very least they give that initial extra punch. Battle Cloak / Enhanced Battle Cloaks are even more powerful because you can reapply that decloak bonus during combat.

    Vast majority of players in PVE do not understand the value of cloaks, especially Battle Cloaks and I think the art of proper Enhanced Battle Cloak use is practically extinct in this playerbase. This is a dirty blanket statement but it's the truth.

    The absolute WORST cloak users in this game?... The average Romulan player. Most don't even know they even have cloaks, much less understand what benefits cloaks do and the parameters for their effective use.

    My Reman SCI Captain can configure her Warbird so that her Battle Cloak / Enhanced Battle Cloak grants:
    +45% bonus damage from decloaking / "Ambush Bonus"
    23 second "Ambush" duration
    11 seconds before recloaking is possible

    No attack pattern, no BOFF ability, no Captain ability has that kind of combination of power, duration, availability. And it can be configured into a Warbird easily, requiring only the proper combination of trait, trait qualities and sacrificing no console slot, no equipment slot, no weapon slot.

    Fed & KDF can achieve the same damage bonus but not the same Ambush duration nor recloak timer.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • warr182warr182 Member Posts: 49 Arc User
    DEVs ,If you want to sell the new defiant that we all agree it is way ,way under powered .Take the Quad Cannon and put it on the forward weapons slot of ship and make it nonremoveable .Then we would have a buyable 5-3 weapon ship that would not be OP. That a very good easy ship fix that would sell it,,,,,,hint hint,I would buy the defiant then...
  • warr182warr182 Member Posts: 49 Arc User
    And cloak is a big deal,,,When your ambushed most of the time your DOA,,,,,So ya its a big advanage.
  • warr182warr182 Member Posts: 49 Arc User
    brakkenn wrote: »
    So you're saying you can never ever innovate? Because the previous ship was a certain way then any new version must be just like it? They are asking people for 3000 zen for a ship that out of the gate is worse than the Phantom and Tac pilot ship and you're reasoning is because the old defiant was built this way the new one should be as well.

    Isn't the official line from us supposed to be that "every new thing being better than the old thing is BAD for the game's balance?" (see. power creep)

    What's wrong with staying roughly around the current balance point? A T6 Defiant is going to sell because it's a T6 defiant. It doesn't need to slap down all of the alternatives in addition to that.

    Why not try for at least equally as the other 3000 zen T6 ships ,,,, The defiant t6 is equally to the t5 ,,so why buy it ?
  • fk21fk21 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    Okay, I favor Romulan a lot when I play, so when i look at a fed ship and think "Man that is under powered" something is seriously wrong. The way they presented this highlights just how under powered this ship is compared to the others. if they had released it separately or with a pack that did not give such a easy comparison then this discussion would probably not be as big. When you say that cloak is not a big deal in PVE I have to laugh at you, it is. Especially battle cloak. Cloak is nice get the drop on the enemy for free, battle cloak is a get out of battle for free ticket, enhanced battle cloak is a get out of battle free and i get to heal while I do it ticket. These are major advantages I use all the time in PVE and PVP. (note: each of the later has all the advantages of the former for those who don't already know.) The Valiant Class has no advantages to make up for the deficiency presented here. Heck it with it's deficiencies it can't even stand against other fed T6 pilot ships. The console is the only reason to get this ship and it's is only usable on Tactical Escort variants, so really it's the only reason to have this ship in combat at all. I'm sorry but that console is not OP enough to make this the ship of choice.

    This ship does need a buff, but i'll let those who know how fed ships better work out what would be a fair buff for it.
  • skyranger1414skyranger1414 Member Posts: 1,785 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    All this talk about cloaks is pointless. Cloaks aren´t even weighted when Cryptic figures out ships stats, They just add it on kdf and rom ships as freebies. In PVP they can be devastating, but in PVE they´re actually detrimental to use beyond the initial decloak boost.

    Cloaks are no laughing matter. At the very least they give that initial extra punch. Battle Cloak / Enhanced Battle Cloaks are even more powerful because you can reapply that decloak bonus during combat.

    Vast majority of players in PVE do not understand the value of cloaks, especially Battle Cloaks and I think the art of proper Enhanced Battle Cloak use is practically extinct in this playerbase. This is a dirty blanket statement but it's the truth.

    The absolute WORST cloak users in this game?... The average Romulan player. Most don't even know they even have cloaks, much less understand what benefits cloaks do and the parameters for their effective use.

    My Reman SCI Captain can configure her Warbird so that her Battle Cloak / Enhanced Battle Cloak grants:
    +45% bonus damage from decloaking / "Ambush Bonus"
    23 second "Ambush" duration
    11 seconds before recloaking is possible

    No attack pattern, no BOFF ability, no Captain ability has that kind of combination of power, duration, availability. And it can be configured into a Warbird easily, requiring only the proper combination of trait, trait qualities and sacrificing no console slot, no equipment slot, no weapon slot.

    Fed & KDF can achieve the same damage bonus but not the same Ambush duration nor recloak timer.


    My comments about cloak not being terribly useful were made in reference to PvE, when PvP was still a thing rom cloaks were terrifying and incredibly infuriating if you were not prepared for the spike. Of course, if you had a healer and lived then threw a tractor or CPB or any number of other things you could usually take down the battlecloaker. Then came the days when it was all up to RSP and/or FBP to keep you alive, at least until the spikes were such that you could get popped while still having shields up and nearly full. But then, if there was more than one rom on your tail things usually didn´t work out too well for you. I was in matches were I was the only non romulan. In all fairness, it was always because people saw too many roms on the other side and just left, not wanting to bother with it. As time passed and we got further away from the player rom launch this was an occurrence that happened more and more often. As might be surmised PvP participation nosedived not long after. As to the question of why the roms were made so OP, I believe the reasons are many but ultimately boil down to promoting ship sales.

    You´re right about the average rom player though, I rarely see anyone cloak after combat starts in the PvE queus. Looking at the stats the warbirds are a little less durable than comparable fed ships but not enough to make cloaking a necessity. Certainly, its nowhere near the gulf in durability between a BOP and a fedscort. They also get the best boffs in the game. Correct me if i´m mistaken as its been a while, but can´t rom players get boffs that have both the defence and crit bonuses? Embassy boffs are limited to one or the other; again, likely a planned inferiority to promote rom playership and warbird sales. Add to that the singularity core powers and I don´t think the average rom player feels the "need" to use cloak much at all. And then of course, it seems like 90% of rom players are flying a FAW DBB Scimitar that can get along fine without needing to cloak anyway.

    Personally, i didn´t care for the cloaking playstyle at all and I´ve assumed the average rom player doesn´t either. Imagine how much more popular rogue type characters would be in games if they could keep their high DPS, without needing to sneak around all the time, while also not being glass cannons and you can see why the roms appeal to players, even if they do not like the cloaking playstyle. I realize the irony but Cryptic made them a little or a lot OP so folks have a lot of leeway in how they play them. Could be wrong on that, but its what it seems like. See, to the average rom cloaking is a nice fluff bonus not worth looking into. As many love to say about the mediocre Valiant, "its good enough for them to play with" and "it doesn´t need to be maximized to be fun", I think those same concepts apply here. This is why I consider cloaking to be of little utility in PvE, not necessarily beause it can´t be useful, but because it will never be used in large numbers. Rom warbirds just make cloaking an unneeded burden to the average player.
  • warr182warr182 Member Posts: 49 Arc User
    O see anti power creep .... you ll see defiant ,promeathus ,and akira T6 ,30$ ,Right next to the bad ship sales .No one wants a underpowerd ship we want equal footing and cool ship we can build into a winner,
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,958 Arc User
    samt1996 wrote: »
    @taylor1701d


    There are no rules in war so get over yourself.


    In Star Trek there are rules. But they only apply to the Federation, everyone else can do whatever they want. Its part of Gene´s idiotic legacy, the Federation has to be so above reproach as to be willfully stupid. Part of it is also to make the main cast appear so far above everyone else as to be moral paragons. Its why Starfleet is generally useless unless its the main cast and their ship.
    It's not part of an idiotic legacy, it's an important symbol of a franchise describing a fiction universe that is to inspire hope for our future despite all the pettiness, shortcomings, flaws and evil we see in ourselves now.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,823 Arc User
    samt1996 wrote: »
    @taylor1701d


    There are no rules in war so get over yourself.


    In Star Trek there are rules. But they only apply to the Federation, everyone else can do whatever they want. Its part of Gene´s idiotic legacy, the Federation has to be so above reproach as to be willfully stupid. Part of it is also to make the main cast appear so far above everyone else as to be moral paragons. Its why Starfleet is generally useless unless its the main cast and their ship.
    It's not part of an idiotic legacy, it's an important symbol of a franchise describing a fiction universe that is to inspire hope for our future despite all the pettiness, shortcomings, flaws and evil we see in ourselves now.

    indeed, this is why the Star Trek franchise is very important, because the trek universe shows that it is possible to follow a different path than, simply follow the easy path of violence, crimes, etc

    a world without money, damn' I'm in.
  • nebfabnebfab Member Posts: 672 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    samt1996 wrote: »
    @taylor1701d


    There are no rules in war so get over yourself.


    In Star Trek there are rules. But they only apply to the Federation, everyone else can do whatever they want. Its part of Gene´s idiotic legacy, the Federation has to be so above reproach as to be willfully stupid. Part of it is also to make the main cast appear so far above everyone else as to be moral paragons. Its why Starfleet is generally useless unless its the main cast and their ship.

    Fed is powerful enough to have war goals beyond mere survival most of the time, and it's not interested in outright conquest. For a power like that, even from standpoint of cold-blooded machiavellianism, few things are more useful than reputation for benevolence and (mostly) honest dealing, and few things more dangerous as being seen as someone who would throw any rule or agreement under the bus for 0.1% more of an advantage... Doing that never got anyone very far for very long, either in RL or in Trek.
  • kyrrokkyrrok Member Posts: 1,352 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    There's word that there's a reworking going on. How much benefit it has for the Valiant/Kor remains to be seen. We might yet get a battlecloak set bonus for the Valiant and pho-torps for the Kor yet.
    chipg7 wrote: »
    LOL, Feds still angry about their unrealistic expectations that they're demanding the B'Rel shouldn't get an Enhanced Battle Cloak. THE B'REL OF ALL THINGS!

    :D

    You guys keep thrashing around wildly in the water. It's entertaining to watch.

    The Romulans and Klingons spend their time making popcorn, to watch the Feds spend their time making demands :tongue:

    I'll say it again - nothing about the T6 Defiant's stats should have been a surprise to anyone.

    Ah! the popcorn is done! =)
  • goodscotchgoodscotch Member Posts: 1,680 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    I bought the T6 Kor BOP last night. Suited it up and took it out into space. The battle cloak in PVE is useless. Only lets you fire torpedoes which are generally kinetic damage anyway and if the target is shielded do minimal, if any, damage. The exception to this would be if you used the Anti-Proton based torpedo. That might have some impact. But to remain battle-cloaked the whole time to try and eliminate enemies like this would take too long for it to be practical.
    Post edited by goodscotch on
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  • chipg7chipg7 Member Posts: 1,577 Arc User
    kyrrok wrote: »
    chipg7 wrote: »
    The Romulans and Klingons spend their time making popcorn, to watch the Feds spend their time making demands :tongue:

    I'll say it again - nothing about the T6 Defiant's stats should have been a surprise to anyone.

    Ah! the popcorn is done! =)

    You bring the bloodwine, and I'm fully-stocked with ale. This seems to be going on for a while now.
  • nightkennightken Member Posts: 2,808 Arc User
    goodscotch wrote: »
    I bought the T6 Kor BOP last night. Suited it up andtook it out into space. The battle cloak in PVE is useless. Only lets you fire torpedoes which are generally kinetic damage anyway and if the target is shielded do minimal, if any, damage. The exception to this would be if you used the Anti-Proton based torpedo. That might have some impact. But to remain battle-cloaked the whole time to try and eliminate enemies like this would take to long for it to be practical.

    like with most things you build for it. and don't forget you can use some sci powers. hit with a good trop spread and grav well you can do alot, granted kor is not the best boat for partgen.

    and it works fine as a normal bop.


    if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
  • xyquarzexyquarze Member Posts: 2,091 Arc User
    warr182 wrote: »
    we all agree
    warr182 wrote: »
    No one wants (...) we want

    Could you please make your points without pretending to speak for everybody else? Because you don't, as this discussion already shows.
    My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
  • kyrrokkyrrok Member Posts: 1,352 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    chipg7 wrote: »
    kyrrok wrote: »
    chipg7 wrote: »
    The Romulans and Klingons spend their time making popcorn, to watch the Feds spend their time making demands :tongue:

    I'll say it again - nothing about the T6 Defiant's stats should have been a surprise to anyone.

    Ah! the popcorn is done! =)

    You bring the bloodwine, and I'm fully-stocked with ale. This seems to be going on for a while now.

    And may continue, pending the improvements they do make to the Valiant/Kor

    I may even want to put some more popcorn in the microwave :D
    Post edited by kyrrok on
  • uryenserellonturyenserellont Member Posts: 858 Arc User
    indeed, this is why the Star Trek franchise is very important, because the trek universe shows that it is possible to follow a different path than, simply follow the easy path of violence, crimes, etc

    a world without money, damn' I'm in.

    Gold-pressed latinum. I think the whole "world without money" was only really a thing in Star Trek IV right? It's been mentioned here and there after that but there's also all kinds of interstellar commerce going on with currency exchanged.
    kyrrok wrote: »
    There's word that there's a reworking going on. How much benefit it has for the Valiant/Kor remains to be seen. We might yet get a battlecloak set bonus for the Valiant and pho-torps for the Kor yet.

    I'd rather see a set bonus based on the quad cannons. Battlecloak might be sort of useful but it was its cannons that were iconic.

    They'll probably do neither.

  • shandypandyshandypandy Member Posts: 632 Arc User
    I think hyperbole is the most amazing thing in the world.
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  • skyranger1414skyranger1414 Member Posts: 1,785 Arc User

    I'd rather see a set bonus based on the quad cannons. Battlecloak might be sort of useful but it was its cannons that were iconic.

    They'll probably do neither.


    I agree that a quad based set bonus would be more appropriate, I also agree that we are unlikely to see it. I wonder why now though? Is the Valiant not selling? It seems weird to me that they´d look at anything post release and make changes to it.
  • samt1996samt1996 Member Posts: 2,856 Arc User
    Allow me to repeat myself again just for clarity, THERE ARE NO RULES IN WAR.

    If you believe otherwise you are a moron and destined to be exterminated.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,958 Arc User
    samt1996 wrote: »
    Allow me to repeat myself again just for clarity, THERE ARE NO RULES IN WAR.

    If you believe otherwise you are a moron and destined to be exterminated.
    But there are. If you believe otherwise, you might face a court martial or a war criminal tribunal.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • samt1996samt1996 Member Posts: 2,856 Arc User
    Oh gee, the awesome power of the United Nations to bring war criminals to justice is just incredible.

    :neutral:
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    samt1996 wrote: »
    Oh gee, the awesome power of the United Nations to bring war criminals to justice is just incredible.

    :neutral:

    Ah, so the inability to enforce the rules means there are none?​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,958 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    samt1996 wrote: »
    Oh gee, the awesome power of the United Nations to bring war criminals to justice is just incredible.

    :neutral:
    I think many convicted war criminals from the Kosovo conflict might have strong feelings on this.

    Here is the thing - human laws can be broken. And they are. They are not like the laws of nature, which you can't break. IN a way, the terms mean very different things. Human laws (any laws from sentiend beings) need rules on how to deal with people that violate them, and people that enforce these rules (which mostly means: "Stopping those that break the rules from breaking them further."

    But that doesn't mean that just because people break laws, and sometimes they even get away with it, that there are no laws at all. The laws are there. And if you don't follow them, you take a risk that you will be punished for them, and it might be severely.

    Most wars - even world wars - involve many parties. And there is no guarantee that, even if you still stand at the end of the war, that you're the most powerful one and can just rule yourself "innocent" or alter the laws to get away scot-free. And you still need to live with all the other people that were part of the war and still stood at the end, or all the people that weren't even part of the war in the first place. And if you behaved in a manner that they don't approve, and destroys their trust, you will face repercussions. Some severe, some not so.


    Of course you can easily construct scenarios where the Federation would develop cloaking technology and use it, possibly even on a massive scale. Maybe even one where they would willingly commit genocide. (Hey, we actually had already all of that in Star Trek - the alternate timeline with the FED/KDF war, the Borg)
    But you can also create a lot of scenarios where doing this is not the best course of action. (Heck, imagine the Federation was perpetrating genocide against, say, the Cardassians, and then Mission Farpoint happens...)
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • xyquarzexyquarze Member Posts: 2,091 Arc User
    Also, there are a lot of people on your own side which may not be too happy about you doing the very things they are fighting against. Not everybody thinks that torture or chemical warfare or similar may be the way to go. And thus, quite a few war criminals have faced repercussions from their own side.
    My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
  • narthaisnarthais Member Posts: 452 Arc User
    My Reman SCI Captain can configure her Warbird so that her Battle Cloak / Enhanced Battle Cloak grants:
    +45% bonus damage from decloaking / "Ambush Bonus"
    23 second "Ambush" duration
    11 seconds before recloaking is possible

    Funny, I built a reman captain specifically for that combination myself, come out of cloak in the Feaht with SS3, devestating. Also a science captain cooincidentally, wanted something a little different to the standard AP:A style, scan makes for a reasonable substitute.
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,204 Arc User
    narthais wrote: »
    My Reman SCI Captain can configure her Warbird so that her Battle Cloak / Enhanced Battle Cloak grants:
    +45% bonus damage from decloaking / "Ambush Bonus"
    23 second "Ambush" duration
    11 seconds before recloaking is possible

    Funny, I built a reman captain specifically for that combination myself, come out of cloak in the Feaht with SS3, devestating. Also a science captain cooincidentally, wanted something a little different to the standard AP:A style, scan makes for a reasonable substitute.

    The RRW are in their own league. TAC, ENG, SCI Captain, it doesn't matter.

    Stealth Warfare with Warbirds having Battle Cloaks at the bare minimum, the array of powerful BOFF & Captain Traits found in the RRW faction, many of which have values that stack (the values that matter to this game's meta) puts the Roms/Remans head and shoulders above the Feds & KDF. This was so when LOR released in 2013. This is still so in 2015, a year after Delta Rising's release last October.

    The RRW may have limited ship selection, worse total ships than even the KDF. But what they do have is quite good with some very powerful ships backed up by excellent BOFF & Captain trait combinations.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • warr182warr182 Member Posts: 49 Arc User
    xyquarze wrote: »
    warr182 wrote: »
    we all agree
    warr182 wrote: »
    No one wants (...) we want

    Could you please make your points without pretending to speak for everybody else? Because you don't, as this discussion already shows.

    Really ,quit brown nosing. If you have no positive feed back to fix the Defiant ,Or no feed back at all pertaining to the defiant or the klingon or romulan ship. Find anthor form...
  • straden0straden0 Member Posts: 78 Arc User
    narthais wrote: »
    My Reman SCI Captain can configure her Warbird so that her Battle Cloak / Enhanced Battle Cloak grants:
    +45% bonus damage from decloaking / "Ambush Bonus"
    23 second "Ambush" duration
    11 seconds before recloaking is possible

    Funny, I built a reman captain specifically for that combination myself, come out of cloak in the Feaht with SS3, devestating. Also a science captain cooincidentally, wanted something a little different to the standard AP:A style, scan makes for a reasonable substitute.

    The RRW are in their own league. TAC, ENG, SCI Captain, it doesn't matter.

    Stealth Warfare with Warbirds having Battle Cloaks at the bare minimum, the array of powerful BOFF & Captain Traits found in the RRW faction, many of which have values that stack (the values that matter to this game's meta) puts the Roms/Remans head and shoulders above the Feds & KDF. This was so when LOR released in 2013. This is still so in 2015, a year after Delta Rising's release last October.

    The RRW may have limited ship selection, worse total ships than even the KDF. But what they do have is quite good with some very powerful ships backed up by excellent BOFF & Captain trait combinations.

    This.

    On another note to the comment about getting a 2pc cannon buff for Defiant, they already did that with the pilot and the 3 pc console set.. Only reason I didnt opt for it was because 3 consoles on an escort is a waste compared to the other things that buff raw damage.
  • warr182warr182 Member Posts: 49 Arc User
    narthais wrote: »
    My Reman SCI Captain can configure her Warbird so that her Battle Cloak / Enhanced Battle Cloak grants:
    +45% bonus damage from decloaking / "Ambush Bonus"
    23 second "Ambush" duration
    11 seconds before recloaking is possible

    Funny, I built a reman captain specifically for that combination myself, come out of cloak in the Feaht with SS3, devestating. Also a science captain cooincidentally, wanted something a little different to the standard AP:A style, scan makes for a reasonable substitute.

    Nice
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