Defence of DS9

deaftravis05 · October 2015

Anyone notice Deep Space Nine is poorly defended? Throughout nearly the entire series and even STO, it's poorly defended.

Why would a position near a wormhole to the far side of the galaxy be lightly defended? I would had stationed an entire fleet in the Bajoran system, with the Bajorans in a position to have a say, (we'd establish this by treaty) and slap a lot of armour on DS9, redundant shielding and station a lot more security there. I'd upgrade the power core to handle a lot more firepower and improve the shielding... not wait to go "Oh there's a threat, okay maybe we should do this." I would consider it a serious chokepoint and make it a fortress, even if it's an open port with a lowly commander in command, I would make it a position that if it's attacked, it could hold out for hours or even days until the sector fleet was mobilized and relieving the siege.

theraven2378 · October 2015

deaftravis05 wrote: »

Anyone notice Deep Space Nine is poorly defended? Throughout nearly the entire series and even STO, it's poorly defended.

Why would a position near a wormhole to the far side of the galaxy be lightly defended? I would had stationed an entire fleet in the Bajoran system, with the Bajorans in a position to have a say, (we'd establish this by treaty) and slap a lot of armour on DS9, redundant shielding and station a lot more security there. I'd upgrade the power core to handle a lot more firepower and improve the shielding... not wait to go "Oh there's a threat, okay maybe we should do this." I would consider it a serious chokepoint and make it a fortress, even if it's an open port with a lowly commander in command, I would make it a position that if it's attacked, it could hold out for hours or even days until the sector fleet was mobilized and relieving the siege.

It tanked a massive Klingon assault in way of the warrior and still held out until relieved

deaftravis05 · October 2015

That was after the Dominion threat and when Starfleet finally decided to upgrade it.

theraven2378 · October 2015

deaftravis05 wrote: »

That was after the Dominion threat and when Starfleet finally decided to upgrade it.

Starfleet are not known for making bright decisions, the level of defences before the upgrade were shockingly bad

deaftravis05 · October 2015

That was what? 3 years after taking possession? It was also attacked by the Cardassians. I'd had stationed a small task force, 3 starships at the very least to prevent the Cardassians from coming back.

I don't know why Bajor wasn't screaming for more ships to protect the system. When the wormhole was discovered, the Cardassians came back... only Enterprise D pushed them out, that and Gul Dukat saying stand down... but I wonder if it wasn't for the flagship of the fleet returning (one capable of easily dueling a Galor Class), would they had retreated or just grabbed it anyways?

theraven2378 · October 2015

deaftravis05 wrote: »

That was what? 3 years after taking possession? It was also attacked by the Cardassians. I'd had stationed a small task force, 3 starships at the very least to prevent the Cardassians from coming back.

I don't know why Bajor wasn't screaming for more ships to protect the system. When the wormhole was discovered, the Cardassians came back... only Enterprise D pushed them out, that and Gul Dukat saying stand down... but I wonder if it wasn't for the flagship of the fleet returning (one capable of easily dueling a Galor Class), would they had retreated or just grabbed it anyways?

The Cardassians can be opportunists at times, grabbing back the station makes sense

gradii · October 2015

They fooled the cardassians into thinking they had 5000 photon torpedoes and phasers on all levels.

gulberat · October 2015

theraven2378 wrote: »

deaftravis05 wrote: »

That was after the Dominion threat and when Starfleet finally decided to upgrade it.

Starfleet are not known for making bright decisions, the level of defences before the upgrade were shockingly bad

This is very true about Starfleet. This is the same Starfleet that seems not to have a strong home fleet to guard Earth or decent orbital defenses, and seems to use starship-based personnel instead of maintaining a standing infantry and can't be bothered to issue armor to those troops until the STO era.

deaftravis05 · October 2015

Agreed. Why are they so... laid back? I'm not saying they need to have a large fleet or heavily armed personals walking the streets. Come on, There should be a Home Fleet of at least 15 starships stationed at Mars at all times. That way they can reach Andor, Earth, Vuclan and Tellar pretty quickly while still protecting the shipyards of Mars. The starbase at Earth should also have at least a capital ship and a series of orbital platforms. But everytime Earth is attacked, a fleet has to arrive and drive it off. You saw the destruction of the cities during the Dominion war, why, after Earth was attacked a number of times, does Earth not have planetary shields and backups protecting key cities such as SF and Paris?

theraven2378 · October 2015

deaftravis05 wrote: »

Agreed. Why are they so... laid back? I'm not saying they need to have a large fleet or heavily armed personals walking the streets. Come on, There should be a Home Fleet of at least 15 starships stationed at Mars at all times. That way they can reach Andor, Earth, Vuclan and Tellar pretty quickly while still protecting the shipyards of Mars. The starbase at Earth should also have at least a capital ship and a series of orbital platforms. But everytime Earth is attacked, a fleet has to arrive and drive it off. You saw the destruction of the cities during the Dominion war, why, after Earth was attacked a number of times, does Earth not have planetary shields and backups protecting key cities such as SF and Paris?

And the Xindi probe in 2153, it carved a path of destruction from Florida to Venezuela, golden rule is always make sure your capital is well defended.

deaftravis05 · October 2015

I understand that Earth has a no weapons ban in place, but it doesn't mean they can't have a ton of shields and a fleet stationed at Mars. Problem solved.

theraven2378 · October 2015

deaftravis05 wrote: »

I understand that Earth has a no weapons ban in place, but it doesn't mean they can't have a ton of shields and a fleet stationed at Mars. Problem solved.

Make the shipyards at Utopia Planetia the military headquarters for protecting Sol

deaftravis05 · October 2015

Canada has a large military base about 2 hours outside Ottawa. It is tasked with protecting the capital and has done so on several occasions with a good response time. Quebec City has a large one just outside the city to ensure order is kept.
Halifax is right inside the city and is capable of responding to an attack instantly. The city is a fortress and even though it is peacetime, the city is quite well guarded and fortified. Why? It is the gateway to Canada and the major trading port on the East Coast.

Vancouver's fleet is actually across the channel on Vancouver Island, tasked with protecting the West Coast, the local capital and Vancouver (being the major trading port on the west). The response time for the fleet is 2 hours by warship, but less by other methods.

My point? If any of those 4 major cities were attacked, the Armed Forces would be able to respond quickly enough that a siege wouldn't be possible without external counterattacks.

You don't see that at Earth. The Breen Fleet was wiped out by the Federation's fleet, but not before getting quite a few punches in.

theraven2378 · October 2015

deaftravis05 wrote: »

Canada has a large military base about 2 hours outside Ottawa. It is tasked with protecting the capital and has done so on several occasions with a good response time. Quebec City has a large one just outside the city to ensure order is kept.
Halifax is right inside the city and is capable of responding to an attack instantly. The city is a fortress and even though it is peacetime, the city is quite well guarded and fortified. Why? It is the gateway to Canada and the major trading port on the East Coast.

Vancouver's fleet is actually across the channel on Vancouver Island, tasked with protecting the West Coast, the local capital and Vancouver (being the major trading port on the west). The response time for the fleet is 2 hours by warship, but less by other methods.

My point? If any of those 4 major cities were attacked, the Armed Forces would be able to respond quickly enough that a siege wouldn't be possible without external counterattacks.

You don't see that at Earth. The Breen Fleet was wiped out by the Federation's fleet, but not before getting quite a few punches in.

And very high civilian casualties at the same time

deaftravis05 · October 2015

Indeed. I think the writers fail to consider military tactics when writing Star Trek. It's possible to do this and still tell a good story

grylak · October 2015

Well, remember in the pilot episode it was a run down, half broken outpost out on the very edge of Federation space. And for the first 3 years, it was still broken and constantly getting repaired. The whole reason Sisko got the Defiant was because he knew the station itself couldn't defend itself until they got it up to spec, which we saw in Way of the Warrior. After they recovered DS9 from the Dominion at the start of series 6, there was a task force perminantly stationed at the station. And if memory serves, there was no ships to help defend DS9 at the end of series 5 because the ships were all off engaged in another fight, essentially sacrificing DS9 for the greater victory. Hence the need for the minefield.

Although to be fair, Starfleet has always taken a react, not pre-action approach to defence.

gulberat · October 2015

grylak wrote: »

Although to be fair, Starfleet has always taken a react, not pre-action approach to defence.

And this is the problem. How many times has Earth been attacked? I can at least semi-excuse the Whale Probe one because for once we actually SAW responding starships in the area; they were just incapacitated by the probe. But the Mars defenses in Best of Both Worlds were pathetic. And of course we add the Breen and Xindi attacks...and yeah, the only attempt on Earth I've ever seen with even a semi-adequate defense was in First Contact. And even there, it took a ship blazing in from all the way across Fed territory to save the day.

Compare instead what we see on the approach to Cardassia Prime during the Dominion War. Not only is there a heavy Cardassian Guard and Dominion fleet presence, there is evidence of powerful automated orbital defenses--defenses that are actually doing damage to the attacking Allied fleet. I have never once seen defense satellites around Earth, which you would think would be a must. The Cardassian approach is by far the more sensible and realistic one.

marcusdkane · October 2015

deaftravis05 wrote: »

Indeed. I think the writers fail to consider military tactics when writing Star Trek. It's possible to do this and still tell a good story

The 'issue' is that you're demanding real-world competence from characters conceived by writers who likely have a) little to no military experience, b) can have trouble keeping in-show canon in line and c) at the end of the day, are just creating something to entertain, rather than be obsessively picked to pieces on a forum (internet) which didn't even exist for much of the show's run. If Trek was to be written today (and by that I mean good, conscientious writers, not JJ his flying monkeys) I would imagine the writers to be much more meticulous in their crafting, consideration, and execution...

Take the example of Riker... In real-world military, he would have been, if not booted from Starfleet, then transferred to a desk job when he kept refusing commands of his own. His incompetence leading to the loss of the Enterprise-D, would have cost him at the very least his commission, and possibly even a sentence of several decades in the stockade (depending upon the loss of life)

At the end of the day, it's just fiction for entertainment, and deconstructing it by contemporary standards is not only missing, but also disrespecting, the writers' point...

proteusrex · October 2015

To me, the quick answer is 'plot' because if DS9 (or earth) was heavily defended, then it wouldn't make for many compelling stories. (Enemy fleet shows up, it gets squashed, credits.)

In world, I think it has a lot to do with allocation of resources and politics.

I know Earth is the 'capitol city' of the Federation, but what makes it more important than Vulcan, or Andoria, or Betazed or any of the hundreds of other Federation worlds, ship yards, or starbases? I'm sure there would be all sorts of strife in the Federation Council if Earth got a massive fleet, and the rest of the member worlds got less.

They just don't have the resources to protect all of their space evenly. (especially after the decimation of Wolf359 or the Dominion war.)

On top of that, the mandate has always been 'exploration' and if you have to stack ships in orbit of member worlds, that mandate goes out the window.

As for DS9, the Bajorans had just recovered from the Cardassian Occupation. They didn't have the resources to arm themselves, which is part of the reason why they got Starfleet's help. Even years later, Bajor (and the Wormhole) wasn't a Federation world, so Starfleet couldn't just bring a fleet in without some serious political ramifications. I seem to remember episodes where some in the Bajoran government felt that Starfleet could become 'another occupation'. I'm sure they would not be happy with a bunch of Starfleet ships in their system.

From our perspective, Starfleet is the good guys, and they kept Bajor safe. But if a bunch of military police, hung out on my front lawn to 'keep me safe', I'd still be nervous.

deaftravis05 · October 2015

That's why I said it could be done by treaty. Remember, the 1st officer of ds9 was a Bajoran. When the Klingons were stationed, she became the Second officer after General Martok. The Commander of the forces defending ds9 during the Dominion war was the emissary of the prophets and loyal to Bajor. So the Bajorans weren't nervous after he was anointed.

marcusdkane · October 2015

deaftravis05 wrote: »

That's why I said it could be done by treaty. Remember, the 1st officer of ds9 was a Bajoran. When the Klingons were stationed, she became the Second officer after General Martok. The Commander of the forces defending ds9 during the Dominion war was the emissary of the prophets and loyal to Bajor. So the Bajorans weren't nervous after he was anointed.

Had Sisko not turned out to be the Emissary, or rather not been unquestionably revealed as the Emissary, and that interpretation of scripture was known only to Opaka, then the Federation presence would have been much less welcome and accepted as it became, and I'm sure there would have been more than a few Bajorans willing to strap on a suicide vest or engage in other acts of terrorism against what they (majority or minority opinion) regarded as new occupiers of Bajor... It's one thing (and an admirable thing) for an oppressed people to rise up and find strength, but when all they do is engage in what can often be considered state-sanctioned acts of, if not war, then 'active belligerence', they begin to alienate themselves, even from their allies or potential allies who come to view themselves as potential future targets (yes, Israel, I'm looking at you... >_< )

Bajorans (as a whole) have never shown themselves to be the most reasonable of people, and as an old thread discussed, the aesthetics of the Cardassian uniform seen in the DS-9 arena, ie the angular cuirass, heavy (possibly semi-metalic) boots and heavy duty pants, makes a lot of sense if thought of as ballistic-resistant combat armor against mines and IEDs, compared to the brown leather the Cardassians wore in their first appearance... It's not a stretch of the imagination to see the Bajorans just after the Cardassian occupation being just as hostile toward the Federation presence...

proteusrex · October 2015

I missed that you mentioned a treaty in your initial post.
Of course, a treaty has to be agreed upon by both parties and at the time it was established there was no Wormhole and no Emissary. So you could understand why the Bajorans would be nervous about Starfleet becoming the new Cardassians.

Was the treaty modified after the discovery of the Wormhole? I don't know. But I could see the Bajoran's refusing to give the Federation more control in light of that discovery, because they could see it as the Federation muscling itself into their sacred temple.

Then there was first contact with the Dominion. It didn't jump to war right away, there was a cold war first. I believe some of the Federation council would be nervous dedicating resources to a non-member world, when they should be protecting themselves. Others probably held onto the hope that a peaceful solution could be found. And fortifying DS9 would probably been seen as counter to that.

While the threat of the Dominion invasion through the wormhole was there, there was a lot of stuff going on in their own backyard. There were Changlings in positions of power, a Klingon-Cardassian war going on, strife in the Romulan Empire. There was just too much going on to cover all their bases, all before the Dominion invasion through the wormhole.

I agreed that DS9, and earth, and maybe the rest of the Federation was not well armed. It's hard to challenge that, but as was mentioned above, it's hard to apply real-world logic to the world. I'm sure things like replicators, transporters, shields, even hyposprays have consequences that our current military tactics haven't accounted for.

It made for good TV, and I rather enjoyed watching the characters struggle as the ideals of the Federation battle against an enemy that forced them to rethink a lot of it.

khan5000 · October 2015

The most damning of these is Star Trek The Motion Picture. Vger is able to come in from Klingon space an approach Earth and the only ship in intercept range is a ship being refit in the ship yards. I know this was done because Kirk and crew needed to be the heroes but it comes off as incompetent especially since there are several hostile alien races that would love to wipe out Star Fleet Command. Why no Klingon or Romulan looked at the cloud situation and think to themselves "We can roll all the way to Earth cloaked with not so much as someone looking at us"
but then again Klingon defenses aren't that good as the Enterprise was able to 'trick' their way into Klingon space in UC.

deaftravis05 wrote: »

Agreed. Why are they so... laid back? I'm not saying they need to have a large fleet or heavily armed personals walking the streets. Come on, There should be a Home Fleet of at least 15 starships stationed at Mars at all times. That way they can reach Andor, Earth, Vuclan and Tellar pretty quickly while still protecting the shipyards of Mars. The starbase at Earth should also have at least a capital ship and a series of orbital platforms. But everytime Earth is attacked, a fleet has to arrive and drive it off. You saw the destruction of the cities during the Dominion war, why, after Earth was attacked a number of times, does Earth not have planetary shields and backups protecting key cities such as SF and Paris?

artan42 · October 2015

deaftravis05 wrote: »

Canada has a large military base about 2 hours outside Ottawa. It is tasked with protecting the capital and has done so on several occasions with a good response time. Quebec City has a large one just outside the city to ensure order is kept.
Halifax is right inside the city and is capable of responding to an attack instantly. The city is a fortress and even though it is peacetime, the city is quite well guarded and fortified. Why? It is the gateway to Canada and the major trading port on the East Coast.

Completely off topic, but it always amuses me to hear of Halifax as a major city, as the Halifax I'm more familiar with (about 13 Km away) is a tiny little town in the hills

.

deaftravis05 · October 2015

Ha, Halifax has 350k people here in Canada.

Yeah, I know, plot armour and all that but come on... there are ways around these without making the Fleet look stupid

lilchibiclari · October 2015

gulberat wrote: »

This is very true about Starfleet. This is the same Starfleet that seems not to have a strong home fleet to guard Earth or decent orbital defenses, and seems to use starship-based personnel instead of maintaining a standing infantry and can't be bothered to issue armor to those troops until the STO era.

In the show, handheld phasers are capable of totally vaporizing humanoids and of demolishing entire buildings. Anything less than a total-enclosure airtight suit made of duranium or other super-tough material is not going to survive even a single hit at that power setting.

As far as ships go, remember that forty ships was all that Starfleet could muster to intercept the Borg in "The Best of Both Worlds"--and the loss of 39 of them was considered a major blow. This speaks for Starfleet having only hundreds of battle-ready ships in the pre-Dominion-War period.

artan42 · October 2015

lilchibiclari wrote: »

As far as ships go, remember that forty ships was all that Starfleet could muster to intercept the Borg in "The Best of Both Worlds"--and the loss of 39 of them was considered a major blow. This speaks for Starfleet having only hundreds of battle-ready ships in the pre-Dominion-War period.

40 ships in range of Earth (Wolf 359). It was a blow because they were completely steamrollered by an opponent that was within striking distance of Earth and could destroy 39 ships (and more) single handedly.

There's what, five years between Wolf 359 and Sacrifice of Angles? In a fleet of several hundred including mostly pre-TNG ships (Excelsiors, Mirandas etc.). That's not something you can build if loosing 40 ships is a 'major blow'.

theraven2378 · October 2015

artan42 wrote: »

lilchibiclari wrote: »

As far as ships go, remember that forty ships was all that Starfleet could muster to intercept the Borg in "The Best of Both Worlds"--and the loss of 39 of them was considered a major blow. This speaks for Starfleet having only hundreds of battle-ready ships in the pre-Dominion-War period.

40 ships in range of Earth (Wolf 359). It was a blow because they were completely steamrollered by an opponent that was within striking distance of Earth and could destroy 39 ships (and more) single handedly.

There's what, five years between Wolf 359 and Sacrifice of Angles? In a fleet of several hundred including mostly pre-TNG ships (Excelsiors, Mirandas etc.). That's not something you can build if loosing 40 ships is a 'major blow'.

Starfleet does get it's act together during the post Borg invasion crisis and the Dominion War, the amount of destroyer and escort ships in the fleet increases as well as existing heavy designs coming of the production line quicker due to non combat parts not being installed and newer classes like the Centaur being rushed into production.

deaftravis05 · October 2015

Seen the size of Mars's shipyards? pretty huge.

artan42 · October 2015

theraven2378 wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

lilchibiclari wrote: »

As far as ships go, remember that forty ships was all that Starfleet could muster to intercept the Borg in "The Best of Both Worlds"--and the loss of 39 of them was considered a major blow. This speaks for Starfleet having only hundreds of battle-ready ships in the pre-Dominion-War period.

40 ships in range of Earth (Wolf 359). It was a blow because they were completely steamrollered by an opponent that was within striking distance of Earth and could destroy 39 ships (and more) single handedly.

There's what, five years between Wolf 359 and Sacrifice of Angles? In a fleet of several hundred including mostly pre-TNG ships (Excelsiors, Mirandas etc.). That's not something you can build if loosing 40 ships is a 'major blow'.

Starfleet does get it's act together during the post Borg invasion crisis and the Dominion War, the amount of destroyer and escort ships in the fleet increases as well as existing heavy designs coming of the production line quicker due to non combat parts not being installed and newer classes like the Centaur being rushed into production.

The Centaur is most likely a TMP era design going by its parts.

theraven2378 · October 2015

artan42 wrote: »

theraven2378 wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

lilchibiclari wrote: »

As far as ships go, remember that forty ships was all that Starfleet could muster to intercept the Borg in "The Best of Both Worlds"--and the loss of 39 of them was considered a major blow. This speaks for Starfleet having only hundreds of battle-ready ships in the pre-Dominion-War period.

40 ships in range of Earth (Wolf 359). It was a blow because they were completely steamrollered by an opponent that was within striking distance of Earth and could destroy 39 ships (and more) single handedly.

There's what, five years between Wolf 359 and Sacrifice of Angles? In a fleet of several hundred including mostly pre-TNG ships (Excelsiors, Mirandas etc.). That's not something you can build if loosing 40 ships is a 'major blow'.

Starfleet does get it's act together during the post Borg invasion crisis and the Dominion War, the amount of destroyer and escort ships in the fleet increases as well as existing heavy designs coming of the production line quicker due to non combat parts not being installed and newer classes like the Centaur being rushed into production.

The Centaur is most likely a TMP era design going by its parts.

It may be an old design, but like the miranda, it's a workhorse design

Defence of DS9

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