If V'las wasn't deposed of in Enterprise

deaftravis05 · September 2015

If V'las, administrator of Vulcan wasn't deposed of... would Earth had declared war on Vulcan?

Think of it, at the time, an Earth ship desperately trying to get to the bottom of an assassination of one of their top admirals, was fired upon when it was nearly done its investigation. When it tried to stop the shooting between Andor and Vulcan, the Vulcans shot first at the Earth ship.

Andor directly helped to put an end to the Xindi threat, giving direct military aid and earned the gratitude of Earth. I don't think Earth would had taken kindly to Andor being attacked in a sneak attack, nor its ship being fired upon for trying to keep the peace.

Would Vulcan had revolted to stop V'las from dragging Earth and possibly other words that Earth had befriended into the war? A war Vulcan would eventually lose?

artan42 · September 2015

If Earth had declared war on Vulcan you can bet the Andorians would have thrown their entire fleet to Admiral Gardener with little bows on.

deaftravis05 · September 2015

Well, Andor would had been PLEASED that a close ally of Vulcan say "Hey, wait a minute, you're being jerks." and declared war on them. But why would they give their fleets? You mean if Andor fell?

artan42 · September 2015

If somebody's declaring war on Vulcan I can see Andor giving them their full support, especially if it's Earth.

theraven2378 · September 2015

Earth has shown it can be trusted, any conflict with Vulcan and the Andorians would deploy their military in support of their closest ally

thunderfoot · September 2015

V'las' logic was flawed. In fact, all Vulcans' logic was flawed about Humans during Enterprise. What they were displaying was prejudice and bigotry. These were wrapped up in honeyed words and fine phrases, but they were still there from the start of any conversation between Vulcans and Humans during Enterprise. So much for truly understanding and living IDIC.

"We're smarter than you. We're better than you. We know better than you do about what is best for you. Now, why don't you stop trying to think for yourself and go back to your playpen. When we want you, we'll call for you."

It is a wonder Archer did not immediately TRIBBLE slap any and every Vulcan NX-01 ever encountered. Including T'Pol.

deaftravis05 · September 2015

Archer was very tempted to do that to T'Pol, but remember, it was a Romulan leading the Vulcans.

markhawkman · September 2015

Well, what was V'las's endgame? It seems like he had a variant of Reunification in mind.... with Vulcans the slaves of Romulans.

deaftravis05 · September 2015

they never got a chance to expand on that. We may had seen it if they went to season 5 and played out the war

gradii · September 2015

thunderfoot006 wrote: »

V'las' logic was flawed. In fact, all Vulcans' logic was flawed about Humans during Enterprise. What they were displaying was prejudice and bigotry. These were wrapped up in honeyed words and fine phrases, but they were still there from the start of any conversation between Vulcans and Humans during Enterprise. So much for truly understanding and living IDIC.

"We're smarter than you. We're better than you. We know better than you do about what is best for you. Now, why don't you stop trying to think for yourself and go back to your playpen. When we want you, we'll call for you."

It is a wonder Archer did not immediately TRIBBLE slap any and every Vulcan NX-01 ever encountered. Including T'Pol.

^ This. Don't underestimate or patronize humans.

theraven2378 · September 2015

gradii wrote: »

thunderfoot006 wrote: »

V'las' logic was flawed. In fact, all Vulcans' logic was flawed about Humans during Enterprise. What they were displaying was prejudice and bigotry. These were wrapped up in honeyed words and fine phrases, but they were still there from the start of any conversation between Vulcans and Humans during Enterprise. So much for truly understanding and living IDIC.

"We're smarter than you. We're better than you. We know better than you do about what is best for you. Now, why don't you stop trying to think for yourself and go back to your playpen. When we want you, we'll call for you."

It is a wonder Archer did not immediately TRIBBLE slap any and every Vulcan NX-01 ever encountered. Including T'Pol.

^ This. Don't underestimate or patronize humans.

Humans are more intelligent and tougher than what the Vulcans think, it was Earth who acted as a neutral party with the Andorian/Vulcan treaty

deaftravis05 · September 2015

And Earth that could keep Andor in line

theraven2378 · September 2015

deaftravis05 wrote: »

And Earth that could keep Andor in line

Andor and Earth ended up being close friends and allies

deaftravis05 · September 2015

Indeed, do you think the Vulcan's behaviour is what made those two species (andorian and terran) a lot closer to each other?

theraven2378 · September 2015

Yes, Earth might have been a third rate power but they earned the trust of the Andorians when they exposed the Vulcan spy station at Pjem, also where was Vulcan when the Xindi attacked Earth?

Answer, they were not interested in helping in Earth's hour of need, Shran and the Andorians proved decisive at the final Xindi assault on Earth and earned the trust and respect of humanity in the process

psycoticvulcan · September 2015

theraven2378 wrote: »

Answer, they were not interested in helping in Earth's hour of need, Shran and the Andorians proved decisive at the final Xindi assault on Earth and earned the trust and respect of humanity in the process

That incident in the Calindra system notwithstanding, of course.

theraven2378 · September 2015

psycoticvulcan wrote: »

theraven2378 wrote: »

Answer, they were not interested in helping in Earth's hour of need, Shran and the Andorians proved decisive at the final Xindi assault on Earth and earned the trust and respect of humanity in the process

That incident in the Calindra system notwithstanding, of course.

A minor incident at best, it did not damage Earth/Andorian relations and it denied the xindi a strategic asset

deaftravis05 · September 2015

Archer understood why and I think Archer appreciated Shran waiting til the Xindi were gone before pulling that stunt.

thunderfoot · September 2015

I have to wonder sometimes what the writers of Enterprise were thinking when they wrote Vulcans. The Vulcans in Enterprise seemed more like Rihannsu than Vulcans. I understand a culture can change significantly in a couple of centuries. But the Delcared left Vulcan long before Sputnik was even thought of. Supercilious, condescending, xenophobic. And not really giving a damn about whether or not Humans survived as a species. Nowhere to be seen when the Xindi attacked Earth, yet perfectly willing to use a religious retreat as a covert surveillance center.

I sometimes think when watching Enterprise the writers did not bother with the huge amount of source material when they wrote for Vulcans. I get that they wanted it to be their show and for things to be a little different. But the Vulcans I have been watching and reading about since 1966 would probably not be the ones they wrote for. Or at the very least have shown far less emotion and a lot more restraint.

brian334 · September 2015

"An Andorian acquaintance once said, 'Do not push the pink skins to the thin ice." It wasn't eloquent..." Soval of Vulcan, Ambassador to Earth, Ambassador to The Federation

markhawkman · September 2015

thunderfoot006 wrote: »

I have to wonder sometimes what the writers of Enterprise were thinking when they wrote Vulcans. The Vulcans in Enterprise seemed more like Rihannsu than Vulcans. I understand a culture can change significantly in a couple of centuries. But the Delcared left Vulcan long before Sputnik was even thought of. Supercilious, condescending, xenophobic. And not really giving a damn about whether or not Humans survived as a species. Nowhere to be seen when the Xindi attacked Earth, yet perfectly willing to use a religious retreat as a covert surveillance center.

I sometimes think when watching Enterprise the writers did not bother with the huge amount of source material when they wrote for Vulcans. I get that they wanted it to be their show and for things to be a little different. But the Vulcans I have been watching and reading about since 1966 would probably not be the ones they wrote for. Or at the very least have shown far less emotion and a lot more restraint.

Honestly I think they planned the reveal of V'las rather early and took longer to get back to it than was ideal. The implication that I got out of it was that the Romulans had been trying to covertly overthrow the Vulcan government for well.... probably centuries. This seems to be why the Syranites, who were most similar to Spock, were a fringe group and not main stream.

gulberat · September 2015

thunderfoot006 wrote: »

V'las' logic was flawed. In fact, all Vulcans' logic was flawed about Humans during Enterprise. What they were displaying was prejudice and bigotry. These were wrapped up in honeyed words and fine phrases, but they were still there from the start of any conversation between Vulcans and Humans during Enterprise. So much for truly understanding and living IDIC.

"We're smarter than you. We're better than you. We know better than you do about what is best for you. Now, why don't you stop trying to think for yourself and go back to your playpen. When we want you, we'll call for you."

It is a wonder Archer did not immediately TRIBBLE slap any and every Vulcan NX-01 ever encountered. Including T'Pol.

Yep...and this is why, for all of Archer's flaws, I consider his resentment towards the Vulcans to have had a basis in fact.

But we can see that Vulcans like those from Archer's time DID continue into the 24th century--see Captain Solok's blatant racism, and the idea that all-Vulcan ships were actually permitted in Starfleet.

artan42 · September 2015

Hardly any Vulcans in any show or film were nice guys, sure individuals were, but as a race, not really nice.

deaftravis05 · September 2015

As Gulbert pointed out, there were Vulcans in the 24th century who did use cold logic... and then you see other Vulcans who, while using logic, aren't coldhearted about it. You see in Deep Space Nine and Voyager that there are Vulcans who believe they are superior and you see Vulcans who admit that they aren't superior in some ways but are in others. The older the Vulcans get, the less... snotty they get.

Captain Solok was Sisko's age. Tuvok is old, well over a century old. You actually see Tuvok young, serving on Enterprise B and on the Excel. You see his arrogance, his attitude in the Excelsior episode. It pissed Sulu off. He wasn't 'oh my-ing' with Tuvok. Then we go back to him in Voyager. While he still has a touch of that arrogance, he is more like Spock. He's not being racist or acting superior. But he doesnt let his emotions get the better of him. He thinks things out and doesn't goad people into doing stupid things.

If V'las wasn't deposed of in Enterprise

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