@paxdawn I'm not going to go and scroll through years of threads to find quotes that support what I said because everyone that was around for years before DR and were active in the forums remembers the rage around PvPers creating threads asking for balance and more challenging content.
Sorry no nothing to do with years of threads. But proof of what you said is true or not right now in the current meta. Proof in terms of video and parse, right now. Not the glory years of outdated builds of the yesteryears
I never said you can sit still in every queue, but you can in most and it's quite easy if you have the APB boff, FAW, Neut sprd 3, Kemo and a couple of Iconian traits. Slap on a couple of heals and Bob's your uncle.
I personally don't use Kemo or plasma dopping because I'm not interested in a DPS race. I deliberately don't purchase and use the current meta because I like a challenge.
Easier said than done. All air no show. Like Kam said, where is your proof that is easy.
So far the only thing that's remotely challenging is the elite Iconian queues. Not because they're huge HP and shield hulks that sit there hitting you with TB, but because they hit you with Intel spam, forcing you to counter it. Just like the Voth hit people with sci spam, forcing you to rely on something other than your ship's DPS.
Where again is your proof that is the only thing challenging?
As a tac running no -threat embassy consoles and mk14 weapons with only one being epic and a few ultra rare I pull a lot of aggro and use speed tanking combined with a Aux2ID/DCE drake build to keep my health and resistances high without using heals. On top of that I carry a couple of mk14 fleet neutroniums, an RCS and fleet shields. I've found its more than capable of dealing sufficient damage (despite it being phasers) and holding its own against anything I've come across so far in advanced and elite content without a struggle.
If you dont find any struggle, please show proof in video and parse that there is no struggle at all in all difficulty and all types of STF. This means all elite queues without deaths and you have to do it in seconds. In the current meta, Not in the meta of years ago.
Seeing as how I pug most of the time, videos and parsing will be unreliable due to a lack of constants, hence why ISA is so popular because it's got so many constants. Not only that, I don't have a parsing or recording program to post videos.
But regarding all this request of proof, are you implying that advanced PvE queues are difficult to complete!?
Are you saying that with a team that knows what the objectives are elite queues are too difficult to accomplish without 50k+ DPS?
As I mentioned before I don't follow the current meta 100% on purpose because it's too expensive, a waste of time imo because it'll be nerfed eventually and it'll make it less challenging for me.
At the end of the day, PvE is not as much of a challenge for me as PvP is.
P.S. I want proof of someone completing an pug advanced STF with the current meta and honestly say that it was difficult and challenging.
Seeing as how I pug most of the time, videos and parsing will be unreliable due to a lack of constants, hence why ISA is so popular because it's got so many constants. Not only that, I don't have a parsing or recording program to post videos.
But regarding all this request of proof, are you implying that advanced PvE queues are difficult to complete!?
Are you saying that with a team that knows what the objectives are elite queues are too difficult to accomplish without 50k+ DPS?
As I mentioned before I don't follow the current meta 100% on purpose because it's too expensive, a waste of time imo because it'll be nerfed eventually and it'll make it less challenging for me.
At the end of the day, PvE is not as much of a challenge for me as PvP is.
P.S. I want proof of someone completing an pug advanced STF with the current meta and honestly say that it was difficult and challenging.
ISA is not consistent unless you play with the same 4 other players and you play exactly the same. Too much of the game relies on performance of your teammates when determining DPS because of AOE Buffs and Debuffs.
Seeing as how I pug most of the time, videos and parsing will be unreliable due to a lack of constants, hence why ISA is so popular because it's got so many constants. Not only that, I don't have a parsing or recording program to post videos.
It is reliable. It proves of your claims several posts back that it is "easy". Means no Deaths for the team finish in a few secs in every STF elite queues.
Because it is easy right? Unless it is not easy and you are trying to spin it as "easy."
But regarding all this request of proof, are you implying that advanced PvE queues are difficult to complete!?
Are you saying that with a team that knows what the objectives are elite queues are too difficult to accomplish without 50k+ DPS?
Yes, 50k+ DPS random players still fail elite queues like Hive Space Elite. Its not just DPS about completing elite queues. Nor it is as simple as you suggest nor imply.
As I mentioned before I don't follow the current meta 100% on purpose because it's too expensive, a waste of time imo because it'll be nerfed eventually and it'll make it less challenging for me.
At the end of the day, PvE is not as much of a challenge for me as PvP is.
P.S. I want proof of someone completing an pug advanced STF with the current meta and honestly say that it was difficult and challenging.
What you stated arent proof of anything being easy nor can sit on it nor proof that you can complete it without resistances nor prove that your statement that was replied by and Kam are true.
@paxdawn, I think your confusing time of completion with easyness. Argala is easy not because it takes less than 5 minutes to complete but because it's not very challenging, the Kazon barely make a dent on anyone's build, therefore it's easy. You could take 15-20 minutes to do argala by not using any buffs and it'd still be easy.
The same can be said for ISA, the easiest of all the STFs. You can take 5 or 15 minutes but completing it is easy.
STFs aren't easy because they take little time to complete. I usually take 5-15 mins to pug advanced queues and 15-20 for elite depending on the team (I do pugs remember?).
They're easy because all they require is that you react to what's happening. For example:
Sphere/cube uses Tachyon beam = react with BFI then ST/TSS/EPtS when tachyon beam finishes
Sphere/cube deals plasma damage = HE to clear it.
Sphere/cube uses TB with KCB = BFI or Aux2ID/APO/PH etc...
Iconian uses EMP probe = science team to regain control
Iconian uses VM = ET
Etc etc... You get my point.
Reacting is easy. In PvP you had to not only react but adapt and plan your buffs and heals. Healing too early could kill you, healing too late is obviously a problem and so on. Nothing in PvE at the moment requires anything as challenging as PvP did. That's why to me and other PvPers (if there are any left playing this game) PvE is easy in comparison. It has nothing to do with how long it takes to complete STFs. The content itself and the objectives themselves are straightforward and easy to carry out if you know how to do them.
Short completion time needs high DPS.
Challenging and difficult content completion needs thought, planing and a build with something more than DPS.
Challenging and difficult content completion needs thought and planing.
Now, you are backpedalling because you cannot provide proof. Nothing to do with easyness but something to do with the game not accommodating to your plastyle.
In short, you are spinning stories. No Proof that is not challenging but providing us with nonsense PvP logic in PvE environment. E.G. PvP tank is useless in PvE as a tank.
Which comes back to the point, Where is your proof? Where is the proof that there are no challenge in PVE elite queues when you cant even give proofs that you have any recording nor even completed each elite STF?
It is like PvP players who come and go here claiming that PvE is too easy but the basis is ISA. It is like a noob claiming that every pvE is so easy but they only done normal.
My Hive Space Elite challenge has been up for all dedicated PvP players like yourself for many months now to prove that it doesnt provide a challenge and easy.
Like I said you still have no proof that there is no challenge in elite queues except wild claims and boasts. which goes back to the quote of Kam.
I tend to build my preferred class (heavy cruisers) for solid, if not amazing DPS, capable mobility and horrendous staying power.
"bUt ur DPs sukS!"
It may not be 20k or whatever the hell parsers say is required, but I can tank those giant Unimatrix plasma torpedos without flinching while still being able to chase down fast enemies and carve chunks off my targets HP. Sure, I may not burn down things fast enough for the epeen swingers, but I will dammed well survive everything that gets thrown my way.
"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again."
-Dedication plaque of the Federation Starship U.S.S. Merkava
I tend to build my preferred class (heavy cruisers) for solid, if not amazing DPS, capable mobility and horrendous staying power.
"bUt ur DPs sukS!"
It may not be 20k or whatever the hell parsers say is required, but I can tank those giant Unimatrix plasma torpedos without flinching while still being able to chase down fast enemies and carve chunks off my targets HP. Sure, I may not burn down things fast enough for the epeen swingers, but I will dammed well survive everything that gets thrown my way.
The SCM parser is awesome at checking how well you're doing at tanking. It's not just a DPS checker, for sure.
@paxdawn, I'm not back-pedalling. I gave you reasons why I don't view PvE as a serious challenge In terms of content. I even gave you examples you haven't addressed.
I also never flew a PvP tank, I flew an escort with a counter-vape build that with good timing could decloak alphastrike and provide substantial pressure damage and support for a team.
I also gave you a reason as to why I haven't got a video (I have no recording software) and a hard drive with about 10Gb left of recording space. However ill look into aquiring said proof, to show you how repetitive and boring PvE feels because of said lack of challenge.
But in the meantime, by all means explain to me how and why PvE is as much of a challenge as you're implying it to be.
I am interested in increasing my dps and I have been researching alot on it (the youtube Mr. Valikin channel has helped alot). But I see all these builds with most of the consoles and weapons in gold and I just think that getting a main and 9 alts to that sort of level will send me to the Federation funny farm faster than I could blink. So I guess now my goal is just to make my ships strong enough so I can do STF's in advanced and not feel like I am flying a garbage scow. I am certain that once I link up with my fleet again I shouldn't have a problem with getting some help for my ship and character builds, or even with doing some stf's, but I am sure you have all had experienced from time to time where no one on your fleet is doing stf's or doing the ones you need to do.
I have heard about this 10k, 30k channel but from what I understand you have to prove your ship can deal out that kind of damage and I am not sure that my ships could do that considering they are a year old, mothballed until my comp gets repaired. Are there other stf channels out there and is my goal of just getting my ship to Ultra Rare an attainable one?
About the one other thing that seems to be a real killer is the starship abilities. From what I understand to get the ability "Supremecy" you have to get an Astika Battlecruiser. With 10 characters I come to the horrid realization that I may have to get ten of these ships and level up to mastery just to get the ability for each of my characters my added question is, is there any shortcut to this or do I have to bite the bullet and buy this in the marketplace or start cracking open lockboxes for lobi?
"There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. No signed paper can hold the iron. It must come from men. The words of Ten Bears carries the same iron of life and death. It is good that warriors such as we meet in the struggle of life... or death. It shall be life." - Ten Bears (Will Sampson)
I am interested in increasing my dps and I have been researching alot on it (the youtube Mr. Valikin channel has helped alot). But I see all these builds with most of the consoles and weapons in gold and I just think that getting a main and 9 alts to that sort of level will send me to the Federation funny farm faster than I could blink. So I guess now my goal is just to make my ships strong enough so I can do STF's in advanced and not feel like I am flying a garbage scow. I am certain that once I link up with my fleet again I shouldn't have a problem with getting some help for my ship and character builds, or even with doing some stf's, but I am sure you have all had experienced from time to time where no one on your fleet is doing stf's or doing the ones you need to do.
I have heard about this 10k, 30k channel but from what I understand you have to prove your ship can deal out that kind of damage and I am not sure that my ships could do that considering they are a year old, mothballed until my comp gets repaired. Are there other stf channels out there and is my goal of just getting my ship to Ultra Rare an attainable one?
About the one other thing that seems to be a real killer is the starship abilities. From what I understand to get the ability "Supremecy" you have to get an Astika Battlecruiser. With 10 characters I come to the horrid realization that I may have to get ten of these ships and level up to mastery just to get the ability for each of my characters my added question is, is there any shortcut to this or do I have to bite the bullet and buy this in the marketplace or start cracking open lockboxes for lobi?
There is no shortcut. You need to spend a lot of EC, Lobi, Dilthium, Zen, Blood, sweat, ect to get that level of gear. Only people dedicated to a specific character have this level of gear.
These people all have LTS & have put a lot of real life money into the game as well. The good ones will admit it.
It's an interest in improving the capability of your build, piloting and teamwork by using a consistent benchmark, not an "Obsession"... get over yourself OP.
You know you could have totally told OP that without being a richard cranium?
To be more precise: reacting to a known set of possibilities which you can anticipate is comparatively easy. There are a lot of reaction games which are incredibly hard, because it is a quality as well. Whether one likes these games is a different question we can leave for another day.
Nothing in PvE at the moment requires anything as challenging as PvP did
And nothing ever will require that. No, that is not a slide at Cryptic, the same holds true for any real time game with at least a chunk of complexity and any game that hasn't been analyzed over decades, like maybe chess or go. It is simply impossible to build an AI on such a game that beats the best humans in the territory you mentioned. This may change to some extent someday, but certainly not during the remaining lifetime of STO. The only way AI can keep up is superior reaction time and "cheating", i. e. better stats, more dakka.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
I am interested in increasing my dps and I have been researching alot on it (the youtube Mr. Valikin channel has helped alot). But I see all these builds with most of the consoles and weapons in gold and I just think that getting a main and 9 alts to that sort of level will send me to the Federation funny farm faster than I could blink. So I guess now my goal is just to make my ships strong enough so I can do STF's in advanced and not feel like I am flying a garbage scow. I am certain that once I link up with my fleet again I shouldn't have a problem with getting some help for my ship and character builds, or even with doing some stf's, but I am sure you have all had experienced from time to time where no one on your fleet is doing stf's or doing the ones you need to do.
I have heard about this 10k, 30k channel but from what I understand you have to prove your ship can deal out that kind of damage and I am not sure that my ships could do that considering they are a year old, mothballed until my comp gets repaired. Are there other stf channels out there and is my goal of just getting my ship to Ultra Rare an attainable one?
About the one other thing that seems to be a real killer is the starship abilities. From what I understand to get the ability "Supremecy" you have to get an Astika Battlecruiser. With 10 characters I come to the horrid realization that I may have to get ten of these ships and level up to mastery just to get the ability for each of my characters my added question is, is there any shortcut to this or do I have to bite the bullet and buy this in the marketplace or start cracking open lockboxes for lobi?
You do not need a LTS and/or spend a lot of money in order to do very good DPS. We did an episode on The SHOW where we provided links to MBagel's "Cheap Deepz" Series, where you can find both build links AND videos to help you along your way. You do not need to drop loads of money to get your gear up to gold-plated status, UNLESS you want it right now. It took me months to build my ship for one toon, and it'll take me many months to work on my tank, of which I hope is 1/2 as effective as my main.
I have heard about this 10k, 30k channel but from what I understand you have to prove your ship can deal out that kind of damage and I am not sure that my ships could do that considering they are a year old, mothballed until my comp gets repaired. Are there other stf channels out there and is my goal of just getting my ship to Ultra Rare an attainable one?
Yes there is Public Eleite STF channel (PESTF)
Also Epic gear is not a requirement to do DPS, I've done a shade under 70k parsed in ISA, most of the gear on my ship is Very Rare quality
You do not need a LTS and/or spend a lot of money in order to do very good DPS. We did an episode on The SHOW where we provided links to MBagel's "Cheap Deepz" Series, where you can find both build links AND videos to help you along your way. You do not need to drop loads of money to get your gear up to gold-plated status, UNLESS you want it right now. It took me months to build my ship for one toon, and it'll take me many months to work on my tank, of which I hope is 1/2 as effective as my main.[/quote]
Also Epic gear is not a requirement to do DPS, I've done a shade under 70k parsed in ISA, most of the gear on my ship is Very Rare quality
That's great news. My whole goal is to get a good build so I can be of help to my team in Advanced , whether it was with my fleet/stf channel/pug and not feel like i was carried through a mission. I'm not at all concerned with the parse thing and if I get ripped on for having the lowest score, meh it's not the end of the world. Thank you for the links and the advice, I will be studying those videos and suggestions very carefully and apologies to the OP for sort of going off topic here.
"There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. No signed paper can hold the iron. It must come from men. The words of Ten Bears carries the same iron of life and death. It is good that warriors such as we meet in the struggle of life... or death. It shall be life." - Ten Bears (Will Sampson)
@paxdawn, I'm not back-pedalling. I gave you reasons why I don't view PvE as a serious challenge In terms of content. I even gave you examples you haven't addressed.
I also never flew a PvP tank, I flew an escort with a counter-vape build that with good timing could decloak alphastrike and provide substantial pressure damage and support for a team.
I also gave you a reason as to why I haven't got a video (I have no recording software) and a hard drive with about 10Gb left of recording space.
However ill look into aquiring said proof, to show you how repetitive and boring PvE feels because of said lack of challenge.
But in the meantime, by all means explain to me how and why PvE is as much of a challenge as you're implying it to be.
Oh you got it the opposite. Your claims have been piling up but you havent addressed this issue. And you are just spreading rumors and baseless accusations.
You wanted an easy game with straightforward content so that you could sit around and not have to think.
Well, you got it!
It's so straightforward you don't need resistances, you can sit still and shoot.
No Proof yet that you can sit around, not think, dont need resistances and can sit still and shoot on all STFs in all level of difficulty.
I guarantee you: most of these "DPS Elitists" that people keep QQing about on the forums every week are not even DPSers.
What, you mean this game is full of gasp trolls? Heaven forbid!
On-Topic: Four months in with my DR Fed Engie, I'm parsing 15k+ on a T5U Ambassador with blue Mk XII phasers. Granted, she's also running Iconian gear and I have the Crystalline Event to thank for that. Still. I don't spacebar everything and I don't park 'n shoot. Not too hard to get good DPS here with some work and a good chunk of know-how on how to fly.
Now whether you are here to be credit to team or simply trololololol...
@paxdawn, I think your confusing time of completion with easyness. Argala is easy not because it takes less than 5 minutes to complete but because it's not very challenging, the Kazon barely make a dent on anyone's build, therefore it's easy. You could take 15-20 minutes to do argala by not using any buffs and it'd still be easy.
The same can be said for ISA, the easiest of all the STFs. You can take 5 or 15 minutes but completing it is easy.
STFs aren't easy because they take little time to complete. I usually take 5-15 mins to pug advanced queues and 15-20 for elite depending on the team (I do pugs remember?).
They're easy because all they require is that you react to what's happening. For example:
Sphere/cube uses Tachyon beam = react with BFI then ST/TSS/EPtS when tachyon beam finishes
Sphere/cube deals plasma damage = HE to clear it.
Sphere/cube uses TB with KCB = BFI or Aux2ID/APO/PH etc...
Iconian uses EMP probe = science team to regain control
Iconian uses VM = ET
Etc etc... You get my point.
Reacting is easy.
In PvP you had to not only react but adapt and plan your buffs and heals. Healing too early could kill you, healing too late is obviously a problem and so on.
Nothing in PvE at the moment requires anything as challenging as PvP did. That's why to me and other PvPers (if there are any left playing this game) PvE is easy in comparison.
It has nothing to do with how long it takes to complete STFs. The content itself and the objectives themselves are straightforward and easy to carry out if you know how to do them.
Short completion time needs high DPS.
Challenging and difficult content completion needs thought, planing and a build with something more than DPS.
While what you say is kind of an indictment, I'm going to say it boils down to what I think works in an effective theme park experience.
If you're creating a theme park encounter, you can go for the low hanging fruit of a carnival air gun experience, you can make it like a roller coaster... or you can go all out theme park. I'd look at the flow of theme park rides. Haunted Mansion kind of stuff.
I'd be very interested in creating some top notch theme park rides. You look at things like the information flow. The exposition dumps have to be before and after for the most part. I think we've seen some improvement there but it's where I think the Borg STFs could be improved. Heck, I think some of the story can be restored if you have a queued contact somewhere who gets you into the story, like the TV monitors in line for a ride at Disney.
I guarantee you: most of these "DPS Elitists" that people keep QQing about on the forums every week are not even DPSers.
What, you mean this game is full of gasp trolls? Heaven forbid!
On-Topic: Four months in with my DR Fed Engie, I'm parsing 15k+ on a T5U Ambassador with blue Mk XII phasers. Granted, she's also running Iconian gear and I have the Crystalline Event to thank for that. Still. I don't spacebar everything and I don't park 'n shoot. Not too hard to get good DPS here with some work and a good chunk of know-how on how to fly.
Now whether you are here to be credit to team or simply trololololol...
I have a 50k Sci Dreadnought that is Park and Shoot.
I have an 18k Risian Corvette that has sick turnrate. I can probably get a bit more bang if I trait for it. I've got a 125 degree per second turnrate and there are a few more things I can probably push. I'm thinking about weapons with the turnrate mod. It is the most gloriously disorienting playstyle.
Two thoughts: I actually NEED automation more on the Risian Escort. I have quite a few overlapping keybinds on Park 'n Shoot but on the Corvette, I basically have to bind everything to one or two keys because my focus is on steering.
I have a 50k Sci Dreadnought that is Park and Shoot.
In which STF and what difficulty?
Because if this is just ISA or normal, it goes back to what I said a few posts above. Players rationalizing that is easy when they havent even done nor completed the hardest STFs. It is like a noob complaining that Infected space is too easy except that noob is doing only normal.
ISA 21.5k parses vs HSE 130 parses. Vast difference. Park and shoot where 21.5k accounts complete, couldnt park and shoot where only 130 have parsed.
I'd be very interested in creating some top notch theme park rides. You look at things like the information flow. The exposition dumps have to be before and after for the most part. I think we've seen some improvement there but it's where I think the Borg STFs could be improved. Heck, I think some of the story can be restored if you have a queued contact somewhere who gets you into the story, like the TV monitors in line for a ride at Disney.
I am for improvement. Issue is can you or more players play with that improvement. If players cant even complete the most difficult STFs in the current mechanics, what makes you think these players can complete when Borg has improved?
You cannot compare PvP and PvE, its like apples and oranges..
In PvE, difficulty is increased by piling hitpoints and damage stats to absurd levels.
In PvP, difficulty is increased by fighting better equipped players, that know as much about your capabilities that you know of theirs.
In PvE, difficulty is increased by giving timegates (damage x amount of HP in x amount of seconds)
In PvP, the timegate could be to pour enough damage into a target, that he dies before the healer reacts (hard btw), but you also have the option of seperating them, you can also try and provoke premature heals (also very difficult against a good team)
In PvE, you plan proactively.. You know what you are facing, how they move, what abilities they have and so on.
In PvP, its all reactively.. Its not just a question of reacting to a BOP decloaking and popping an alpha on you, said BOP could run 100s of different combinations of skills (those unislots is what made the BOP such a powerful PvP ship, even though it had less weapons, less shields, less hull than practically any other ship. - This is also why Klingons want a T6 BOP lol) - The point is, you cannot predict what you will face when you enter a PvP match, there are a lot of different skills and a lot of different counters - Say you have 1 Sci BO slot left, do you slot a HE for the heals/fixes, or SciT to clear those pesky Sci debuffs.
Now.. As a old longtime PvPer, and a current DPShog (just hit the 90k mark, after a month or so in the business), both PvE and PvP can be difficult, and it can be easy (the vast majority of STF ques *are* easy - ISA, GGA, CCA, fez, KSA, CSA and so on.
You can probably count on one hand the ones that can be challenging, and they are *only* challenging because of the aforementioned absurd levels of HP and Damage combined with timegates
I have a 50k Sci Dreadnought that is Park and Shoot.
In which STF and what difficulty?
Because if this is just ISA or normal, it goes back to what I said a few posts above. Players rationalizing that is easy when they havent even done nor completed the hardest STFs. It is like a noob complaining that Infected space is too easy except that noob is doing only normal.
ISA 21.5k parses vs HSE 130 parses. Vast difference. Park and shoot where 21.5k accounts complete, couldnt park and shoot where only 130 have parsed.
I'd be very interested in creating some top notch theme park rides. You look at things like the information flow. The exposition dumps have to be before and after for the most part. I think we've seen some improvement there but it's where I think the Borg STFs could be improved. Heck, I think some of the story can be restored if you have a queued contact somewhere who gets you into the story, like the TV monitors in line for a ride at Disney.
I am for improvement. Issue is can you or more players play with that improvement. If players cant even complete the most difficult STFs in the current mechanics, what makes you think these players can complete when Borg has improved?
Well, it is entirely possible to fill up your playtime with predictable content and the more unpredictable a piece of content is, the less value I see in parsing it. DPS measurement only makes sense in places where DPS can carry you.
That said, there is very little survivability gain to be had by sacrificing DPS. Damage is cheap to acquire. Survivability is expensive or impossible to acquire through builds, ignoring the role of skill.
Personally, I'm going to be a lot more engaged by something that is designed at the build rather than the implementation level and games where I got into crowd control or tanking, those were activities that could be accomplished entirely in the meta of a build.
In STO, you can accomplish 75% or more of your optimal DPS through meta game planning. In WoW and some other MMOs, tanking, healing, and CC are meta-rich activities with a handful of live elements to watch out for, particularly if you exclude raids (which a majority of players in WoW do exclude).
I can design a synergistic DPS build, bind everything to two or three keys and be set in STO. You can't do that with utility functions in STO.
My fascination is very much with the build strategy over the arcade elements. I think folks on the DPS channels are like this which is why DPS folks seem inclined to try to scrape viability out of weird builds. Although some are not that way at all, I'll admit.
I think maybe the issue here isn't necessarily a tension between DPS obsession and DPS obliviousness. It's a tension between gameplay decided at the build/planning level and gameplay decided at the action/execution level. Any approach needs some of both.
@paxdawn, I've stated numerous times that I don't subscribe to the current meta, my PvE build probably has around 30k DPS and I'm not going to push it further by adding Kemo, embassy consoles and so on therefore I can't park and shoot (if I got the current meta I know I could). Ive personally always preferred combining energy weapons with torps and debuffs to achieve quick kills.
Someone pointed out to me yesterday that 10k DPS isn't seen as a lot in this game but when you combine it with some good hard debuffs, 10k becomes very effective. Sci ships and sci build's are so powerful now and nobody even notices because of the DPS race.
Regarding an earlier comment about PvP being "reactive". I feel that it involves more than that. You are required to adapt to fighting multiple build's often at the same time being piloted by intelligent players and not AI. That to me makes PvP far more difficult.
Everyone that regularly pugs a PvE will see someone parking and shooting at enemies often. I've seen it in advanced queues (not just ISA) and elite queues.
I have a 50k Sci Dreadnought that is Park and Shoot.
Yeah, I'm not saying its a bad style of flying. Its great for pin 'n spike or if you can vape before the mobs take advantage of your lack of defense. I don't quite have the goods for either, so I have to speedtank for now.
I have an 18k Risian Corvette that has sick turnrate. I can probably get a bit more bang if I trait for it. I've got a 125 degree per second turnrate and there are a few more things I can probably push. I'm thinking about weapons with the turnrate mod. It is the most gloriously disorienting playstyle.
Two thoughts: I actually NEED automation more on the Risian Escort. I have quite a few overlapping keybinds on Park 'n Shoot but on the Corvette, I basically have to bind everything to one or two keys because my focus is on steering.
Great Scott, I can imagine. I regret missing out on one of those when I had the chance.
You wanted an easy game with straightforward content so that you could sit around and not have to think.
Well, you got it!
It's so straightforward you don't need resistances, you can sit still and shoot.
Lets check that out on the current highest DPS parse since you are too lazy to actually search for facts and just spread rumours instead:
see someone parking and shooting at enemies often. I've seen it in advanced queues (not just ISA) and elite queues.
Proof? All talk no show. Dont tell me you will debate on me with nonsense and tell me at the end you got no proof again and spin stories about you spinning stories?
Comments
Sorry no nothing to do with years of threads. But proof of what you said is true or not right now in the current meta. Proof in terms of video and parse, right now. Not the glory years of outdated builds of the yesteryears
Easier said than done. All air no show. Like Kam said, where is your proof that is easy.
Where again is your proof that is the only thing challenging?
If you dont find any struggle, please show proof in video and parse that there is no struggle at all in all difficulty and all types of STF. This means all elite queues without deaths and you have to do it in seconds. In the current meta, Not in the meta of years ago.
But regarding all this request of proof, are you implying that advanced PvE queues are difficult to complete!?
Are you saying that with a team that knows what the objectives are elite queues are too difficult to accomplish without 50k+ DPS?
As I mentioned before I don't follow the current meta 100% on purpose because it's too expensive, a waste of time imo because it'll be nerfed eventually and it'll make it less challenging for me.
At the end of the day, PvE is not as much of a challenge for me as PvP is.
P.S. I want proof of someone completing an pug advanced STF with the current meta and honestly say that it was difficult and challenging.
ISA is not consistent unless you play with the same 4 other players and you play exactly the same. Too much of the game relies on performance of your teammates when determining DPS because of AOE Buffs and Debuffs.
It is reliable. It proves of your claims several posts back that it is "easy". Means no Deaths for the team finish in a few secs in every STF elite queues.
Because it is easy right? Unless it is not easy and you are trying to spin it as "easy."
Yes, 50k+ DPS random players still fail elite queues like Hive Space Elite. Its not just DPS about completing elite queues. Nor it is as simple as you suggest nor imply.
What you stated arent proof of anything being easy nor can sit on it nor proof that you can complete it without resistances nor prove that your statement that was replied by and Kam are true.
Which brings me to quote Kam:
@paxdawn, I think your confusing time of completion with easyness. Argala is easy not because it takes less than 5 minutes to complete but because it's not very challenging, the Kazon barely make a dent on anyone's build, therefore it's easy. You could take 15-20 minutes to do argala by not using any buffs and it'd still be easy.
The same can be said for ISA, the easiest of all the STFs. You can take 5 or 15 minutes but completing it is easy.
STFs aren't easy because they take little time to complete. I usually take 5-15 mins to pug advanced queues and 15-20 for elite depending on the team (I do pugs remember?).
They're easy because all they require is that you react to what's happening. For example:
Sphere/cube uses Tachyon beam = react with BFI then ST/TSS/EPtS when tachyon beam finishes
Sphere/cube deals plasma damage = HE to clear it.
Sphere/cube uses TB with KCB = BFI or Aux2ID/APO/PH etc...
Iconian uses EMP probe = science team to regain control
Iconian uses VM = ET
Etc etc... You get my point.
Reacting is easy.
In PvP you had to not only react but adapt and plan your buffs and heals. Healing too early could kill you, healing too late is obviously a problem and so on.
Nothing in PvE at the moment requires anything as challenging as PvP did. That's why to me and other PvPers (if there are any left playing this game) PvE is easy in comparison.
It has nothing to do with how long it takes to complete STFs. The content itself and the objectives themselves are straightforward and easy to carry out if you know how to do them.
Short completion time needs high DPS.
Challenging and difficult content completion needs thought, planing and a build with something more than DPS.
Now, you are backpedalling because you cannot provide proof. Nothing to do with easyness but something to do with the game not accommodating to your plastyle.
In short, you are spinning stories. No Proof that is not challenging but providing us with nonsense PvP logic in PvE environment. E.G. PvP tank is useless in PvE as a tank.
Which comes back to the point, Where is your proof? Where is the proof that there are no challenge in PVE elite queues when you cant even give proofs that you have any recording nor even completed each elite STF?
It is like PvP players who come and go here claiming that PvE is too easy but the basis is ISA. It is like a noob claiming that every pvE is so easy but they only done normal.
My Hive Space Elite challenge has been up for all dedicated PvP players like yourself for many months now to prove that it doesnt provide a challenge and easy.
Like I said you still have no proof that there is no challenge in elite queues except wild claims and boasts. which goes back to the quote of Kam.
"bUt ur DPs sukS!"
It may not be 20k or whatever the hell parsers say is required, but I can tank those giant Unimatrix plasma torpedos without flinching while still being able to chase down fast enemies and carve chunks off my targets HP. Sure, I may not burn down things fast enough for the epeen swingers, but I will dammed well survive everything that gets thrown my way.
-Dedication plaque of the Federation Starship U.S.S. Merkava
The SCM parser is awesome at checking how well you're doing at tanking. It's not just a DPS checker, for sure.
I also never flew a PvP tank, I flew an escort with a counter-vape build that with good timing could decloak alphastrike and provide substantial pressure damage and support for a team.
I also gave you a reason as to why I haven't got a video (I have no recording software) and a hard drive with about 10Gb left of recording space.
However ill look into aquiring said proof, to show you how repetitive and boring PvE feels because of said lack of challenge.
But in the meantime, by all means explain to me how and why PvE is as much of a challenge as you're implying it to be.
I have heard about this 10k, 30k channel but from what I understand you have to prove your ship can deal out that kind of damage and I am not sure that my ships could do that considering they are a year old, mothballed until my comp gets repaired. Are there other stf channels out there and is my goal of just getting my ship to Ultra Rare an attainable one?
About the one other thing that seems to be a real killer is the starship abilities. From what I understand to get the ability "Supremecy" you have to get an Astika Battlecruiser. With 10 characters I come to the horrid realization that I may have to get ten of these ships and level up to mastery just to get the ability for each of my characters my added question is, is there any shortcut to this or do I have to bite the bullet and buy this in the marketplace or start cracking open lockboxes for lobi?
There is no shortcut. You need to spend a lot of EC, Lobi, Dilthium, Zen, Blood, sweat, ect to get that level of gear. Only people dedicated to a specific character have this level of gear.
These people all have LTS & have put a lot of real life money into the game as well. The good ones will admit it.
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To be more precise: reacting to a known set of possibilities which you can anticipate is comparatively easy. There are a lot of reaction games which are incredibly hard, because it is a quality as well. Whether one likes these games is a different question we can leave for another day.
And nothing ever will require that. No, that is not a slide at Cryptic, the same holds true for any real time game with at least a chunk of complexity and any game that hasn't been analyzed over decades, like maybe chess or go. It is simply impossible to build an AI on such a game that beats the best humans in the territory you mentioned. This may change to some extent someday, but certainly not during the remaining lifetime of STO. The only way AI can keep up is superior reaction time and "cheating", i. e. better stats, more dakka.
You do not need a LTS and/or spend a lot of money in order to do very good DPS. We did an episode on The SHOW where we provided links to MBagel's "Cheap Deepz" Series, where you can find both build links AND videos to help you along your way. You do not need to drop loads of money to get your gear up to gold-plated status, UNLESS you want it right now. It took me months to build my ship for one toon, and it'll take me many months to work on my tank, of which I hope is 1/2 as effective as my main.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Yes there is Public Eleite STF channel (PESTF)
Also Epic gear is not a requirement to do DPS, I've done a shade under 70k parsed in ISA, most of the gear on my ship is Very Rare quality
You do not need a LTS and/or spend a lot of money in order to do very good DPS. We did an episode on The SHOW where we provided links to MBagel's "Cheap Deepz" Series, where you can find both build links AND videos to help you along your way. You do not need to drop loads of money to get your gear up to gold-plated status, UNLESS you want it right now. It took me months to build my ship for one toon, and it'll take me many months to work on my tank, of which I hope is 1/2 as effective as my main.[/quote]
That's great news. My whole goal is to get a good build so I can be of help to my team in Advanced , whether it was with my fleet/stf channel/pug and not feel like i was carried through a mission. I'm not at all concerned with the parse thing and if I get ripped on for having the lowest score, meh it's not the end of the world. Thank you for the links and the advice, I will be studying those videos and suggestions very carefully and apologies to the OP for sort of going off topic here.
If only others would do the same.
Oh you got it the opposite. Your claims have been piling up but you havent addressed this issue. And you are just spreading rumors and baseless accusations.
Here is what Kam and I replied to:
No Proof yet that you can sit around, not think, dont need resistances and can sit still and shoot on all STFs in all level of difficulty.
They are different specialties. The best PvP player doesnt equate best PvEr.
What, you mean this game is full of gasp trolls? Heaven forbid!
On-Topic: Four months in with my DR Fed Engie, I'm parsing 15k+ on a T5U Ambassador with blue Mk XII phasers. Granted, she's also running Iconian gear and I have the Crystalline Event to thank for that. Still. I don't spacebar everything and I don't park 'n shoot. Not too hard to get good DPS here with some work and a good chunk of know-how on how to fly.
Now whether you are here to be credit to team or simply trololololol...
While what you say is kind of an indictment, I'm going to say it boils down to what I think works in an effective theme park experience.
If you're creating a theme park encounter, you can go for the low hanging fruit of a carnival air gun experience, you can make it like a roller coaster... or you can go all out theme park. I'd look at the flow of theme park rides. Haunted Mansion kind of stuff.
I'd be very interested in creating some top notch theme park rides. You look at things like the information flow. The exposition dumps have to be before and after for the most part. I think we've seen some improvement there but it's where I think the Borg STFs could be improved. Heck, I think some of the story can be restored if you have a queued contact somewhere who gets you into the story, like the TV monitors in line for a ride at Disney.
I have a 50k Sci Dreadnought that is Park and Shoot.
I have an 18k Risian Corvette that has sick turnrate. I can probably get a bit more bang if I trait for it. I've got a 125 degree per second turnrate and there are a few more things I can probably push. I'm thinking about weapons with the turnrate mod. It is the most gloriously disorienting playstyle.
Two thoughts: I actually NEED automation more on the Risian Escort. I have quite a few overlapping keybinds on Park 'n Shoot but on the Corvette, I basically have to bind everything to one or two keys because my focus is on steering.
In which STF and what difficulty?
Because if this is just ISA or normal, it goes back to what I said a few posts above. Players rationalizing that is easy when they havent even done nor completed the hardest STFs. It is like a noob complaining that Infected space is too easy except that noob is doing only normal.
ISA 21.5k parses vs HSE 130 parses. Vast difference. Park and shoot where 21.5k accounts complete, couldnt park and shoot where only 130 have parsed.
I am for improvement. Issue is can you or more players play with that improvement. If players cant even complete the most difficult STFs in the current mechanics, what makes you think these players can complete when Borg has improved?
You cannot compare PvP and PvE, its like apples and oranges..
In PvE, difficulty is increased by piling hitpoints and damage stats to absurd levels.
In PvP, difficulty is increased by fighting better equipped players, that know as much about your capabilities that you know of theirs.
In PvE, difficulty is increased by giving timegates (damage x amount of HP in x amount of seconds)
In PvP, the timegate could be to pour enough damage into a target, that he dies before the healer reacts (hard btw), but you also have the option of seperating them, you can also try and provoke premature heals (also very difficult against a good team)
In PvE, you plan proactively.. You know what you are facing, how they move, what abilities they have and so on.
In PvP, its all reactively.. Its not just a question of reacting to a BOP decloaking and popping an alpha on you, said BOP could run 100s of different combinations of skills (those unislots is what made the BOP such a powerful PvP ship, even though it had less weapons, less shields, less hull than practically any other ship. - This is also why Klingons want a T6 BOP lol) - The point is, you cannot predict what you will face when you enter a PvP match, there are a lot of different skills and a lot of different counters - Say you have 1 Sci BO slot left, do you slot a HE for the heals/fixes, or SciT to clear those pesky Sci debuffs.
Now.. As a old longtime PvPer, and a current DPShog (just hit the 90k mark, after a month or so in the business), both PvE and PvP can be difficult, and it can be easy (the vast majority of STF ques *are* easy - ISA, GGA, CCA, fez, KSA, CSA and so on.
You can probably count on one hand the ones that can be challenging, and they are *only* challenging because of the aforementioned absurd levels of HP and Damage combined with timegates
Well, it is entirely possible to fill up your playtime with predictable content and the more unpredictable a piece of content is, the less value I see in parsing it. DPS measurement only makes sense in places where DPS can carry you.
That said, there is very little survivability gain to be had by sacrificing DPS. Damage is cheap to acquire. Survivability is expensive or impossible to acquire through builds, ignoring the role of skill.
Personally, I'm going to be a lot more engaged by something that is designed at the build rather than the implementation level and games where I got into crowd control or tanking, those were activities that could be accomplished entirely in the meta of a build.
In STO, you can accomplish 75% or more of your optimal DPS through meta game planning. In WoW and some other MMOs, tanking, healing, and CC are meta-rich activities with a handful of live elements to watch out for, particularly if you exclude raids (which a majority of players in WoW do exclude).
I can design a synergistic DPS build, bind everything to two or three keys and be set in STO. You can't do that with utility functions in STO.
My fascination is very much with the build strategy over the arcade elements. I think folks on the DPS channels are like this which is why DPS folks seem inclined to try to scrape viability out of weird builds. Although some are not that way at all, I'll admit.
I think maybe the issue here isn't necessarily a tension between DPS obsession and DPS obliviousness. It's a tension between gameplay decided at the build/planning level and gameplay decided at the action/execution level. Any approach needs some of both.
Someone pointed out to me yesterday that 10k DPS isn't seen as a lot in this game but when you combine it with some good hard debuffs, 10k becomes very effective. Sci ships and sci build's are so powerful now and nobody even notices because of the DPS race.
Regarding an earlier comment about PvP being "reactive". I feel that it involves more than that. You are required to adapt to fighting multiple build's often at the same time being piloted by intelligent players and not AI. That to me makes PvP far more difficult.
Everyone that regularly pugs a PvE will see someone parking and shooting at enemies often. I've seen it in advanced queues (not just ISA) and elite queues.
Yeah, I'm not saying its a bad style of flying. Its great for pin 'n spike or if you can vape before the mobs take advantage of your lack of defense. I don't quite have the goods for either, so I have to speedtank for now.
Great Scott, I can imagine. I regret missing out on one of those when I had the chance.
You have so many posts and yet you have not yet provided proof of what me and Kam replied to.
Let me make it slightly easier for your that what your are spreading are rumours and lies.
According to you:
Lets check that out on the current highest DPS parse since you are too lazy to actually search for facts and just spread rumours instead:
Felisean 226K DPS parse. CLR—Infected Space[1:16]— Dmg(DPS) —Taela@Feli 17,242,972(226,881)
Resistances
@Felisean: 73% plasma, 42% kinetic accdg to CLR
: 19% plasma, 36% kinetic, accdg to SCM.
i thought you dont need survivability? Or is this just rumour talk from you?
Proof? All talk no show. Dont tell me you will debate on me with nonsense and tell me at the end you got no proof again and spin stories about you spinning stories?
Let me quote Kam again: