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Introduction to space PvE tanking in STO

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  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    Finally got around to updating the scimitar tank build video, including the addition of reciprocity! Enjoy!
  • sharpie65sharpie65 Member Posts: 679 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    On a "good" day, I can probably get 11-12k DPS out of my Fleet Andromeda..bearing in mind that I'm not optimised for anything and most of my gear is still purple, what could I expect to do that *might* help me be a better tank?

    The build is here.
    Post edited by sharpie65 on
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  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    sharpie65 wrote: »
    On a "good" day, I can probably get 11-12k DPS out of my Fleet Andromeda..bearing in mind that I'm not optimised for anything and most of my gear is still purple, what could I expect to do that *might* help me be a better tank?

    The build is here.

    First of all, I highly recommend that you watch the first couple of videos, the answer to your questions are in there.

    Judging by your build, I think your term of "tank" and my term of "tank" are not the same. Tanks want to be shot at so their teammates are free to deal damage with reckless abandon. Your job is to get as much as possible to shoot the tank, deal with the incoming damage, and maintain aggro on baddies even when your teammates are dealing out damage. Your threat generation is your primary way of operating, DPS is only part of it. You don't need to be tops in DPS to be effective, just have the most hits in according to the parser, preferably by a significant amount.
  • sharpie65sharpie65 Member Posts: 679 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    I've watched the first two videos and I'm changing my build to something a little more in-line with what you've suggested, could I also do with scrapping the Galaxy's gimmick consoles to give myself a few more options in terms of console use? I think I might also change the two Nullifier consoles around for Amplifier ones, in addition to putting another in there.

    EDIT: For the record, I tend to use the Desperate Repairs trait from the Guardian and the Ablative Field Projector from the Pathfinder as a given on any ship; the other two change depending on the situation and BOff skills I have.

    I've also updated my build to what it may end up being.
    MXeSfqV.jpg
  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    sharpie65 wrote: »
    I've also updated my build to what it may end up being.

    Forgive me for being hesitant with providing a helpful build.
    Weapon signature nullifiers are inconsistent with the concept of wanting things to shoot yourself. When I look at the build you linked, it shows weapon system nullifiers.
  • sharpie65sharpie65 Member Posts: 679 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    I've updated the link here, and changed the EPtW1 for another Tac Team 1.

    I'll get around to upgrading those Weapon Amplifiers as soon as possible.
    Post edited by sharpie65 on
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  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    sharpie65 wrote: »
    I've updated the link here, and changed the EPtW1 for another Tac Team 1.

    I'll get around to upgrading those Weapon Amplifiers as soon as possible.

    Ok, here goes.

    1. replace the dual beam bank and torp with beam arrays.
    2. replace all -TH/ weapon nullifier consoles with +TH/ weapon amplifier versions
    3. Replace torp spread 2 with BFAW2, assuming no reciprocity since this info is missing
    4. Replace the saucer separation console with an EPS boosting console

    Since you only show 1 EPTW and 1 EPTS ability, I assume you have the 2-3 purple damage control engineers for a "drake" build. If you don't have them, then it changes things. Without knowing the traits you have, the skill point allocation and the available DOFFs, alot of assumptions are made which may not fit what you have.
  • sharpie65sharpie65 Member Posts: 679 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    I've replaced the saucer separation console with an Enhanced Monotanium Alloy [EPS] from the dilithium mine (would a dedicated EPS console be better than Monotanium?), and torp spread has been swapped out for BFAW 2.
    The nullifiers have been swapped out for amplifiers, and I've got quite a few Mk IV beams leftover from when I was aiming for a 7-beam build..the torpedo has been replaced by a [CrtD] [CrtH] [Pen] beam array at Mk XII, I'm just working getting a suitable replacement beam for the DBB.

    You're correct with no Reciprocity - the Starship Traits I currently have on are Desperate Repairs, Ablative Field Projector, Battle Ready, and Emergency Weapon Cycle.
    My active Character Traits are (Space only) Grace Under Fire, Techie, Point-Blank Shot, Fleet Technician, EPS Manifold Efficiency, Elusive, and Beam Barrage.

    Build update here.
    Post edited by sharpie65 on
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  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    Without reciprocity and not yet having the DOFFs to reduce tac team cooldown yet, have 2 tac teams and 2 BFAWs is the best option for a tank. Tac team's shield re-orientation is critical, and getting that operations 2/3 of the time, 10 out of every 15 seconds, is critical to surviving the onslaught. You only have to worry about a 5 second window of no re-orientation to have a shield heal ready for or some hull heals for. Double BFAW is just to make sure you are spreading the DPS around as often, and as easily, as possible to get the baddies shooting you. When you have 2 purple or 1 purple and 1 blue conn officer that reduce tac team recharge, you can move BFAW2 down to BFAW1 and use the LT tac slot for an attack pattern like APB1 or APD1.

    As far as adding a monotanium +EPS console, the EPS boost is minor on them, and the double neutroniums are already giving lower returns to boosting kinetic resists, so the fleet monotanium +EPS is a temporary fill in until something better comes along. A conductive RCS with the EPS mod is probably more to your liking since it boosts turn rate, something you had with saucer separation, and can add an EPS boost just like an EPS flow regulator. They are pricey to buy off the exchange, though. Until then, try an EPS flow regulator and see if the ship can take the pounding with the boost. Always cycle EPTS, EPTW, BFAW and tac team abilities for consistent results.

    Overwhelm emitters is a decent skill, but being a broadside shooting ship, you'll find you have a small window to shoot all 8 beams and keep overwhelm emitters on target. If you find it hard to keep the angles right to keep it on target, you might want to switch to using 2 A2DAMP1 skills with RSP3, or maybe double up on RSP1.

    Once you've gotten it into several STFs, you'll get a feel for where you have deficiencies and start plans to shore up things.

    If you are using SCM, check the main data set for the DMG in percentage to get an idea for how you did. In CLR, select the hits in tab for what should be the same info. When you are consistently getting around 40% or better in certain STFs, you are the tank.
  • sharpie65sharpie65 Member Posts: 679 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    On my last run of ISA - today, in fact - I managed to take 66.57% of the hits for my team (another team-mate using SCM)..a few more runs are likely needed to get a better number, but I would guess that's a pretty good start?
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  • chilleechillee Member Posts: 176 Arc User
    65% or better is really pretty good.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    For a team of 5 anything above 20% means you were above average. I'd say anything above 40% is good.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • jarvisandalfredjarvisandalfred Member Posts: 1,549 Bug Hunter
    sharpie65 wrote: »
    On my last run of ISA - today, in fact - I managed to take 66.57% of the hits for my team (another team-mate using SCM)..a few more runs are likely needed to get a better number, but I would guess that's a pretty good start?

    Generally between 60-80% is what I find reasonably possible out of a good tank in a normal run with decent teammates. (3/2's will tend to decrease this, bad teams will increase it, etc). In very short ones or ones with terrible teammates, the sky's the limit, with my record at 96%, I believe.
    SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci

    SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci

    Tacs are overrated.

    Game's best wiki

    Build questions? Look here!
  • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,985 Arc User
    Tanks have uses, I go off the logic that being able to last in a fight is better than spending time looking at the respawn timer
    NMXb2ph.png
      "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
      -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
    • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
      My first attempt at building a tank:

      https://www.reddit.com/r/stobuilds/comments/3q3w31/canon_tank_galaxy/

      This is also a canon build so Phasers + Photon torpedoes fore and aft are equipped. Currently averaging about 15k +/- 2K DPS and as of its current setup, I draw about 50-65% of the aggro in ISA with 50-100k+ DPS people in the group.

      Thank you for posting the guide. I learned a lot here. :smile:
    • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
      beameddown wrote: »
      hate to say it, but tanking is not needed in sto pvp unless the following:

      1: you cant stand to see your ship explode no matter the reason, there is virtually no penalty for dying in this game, you can even have the repair parts for your ship in your bank... not even taking up space in your inventory and you can have your ship repaired before the timer even lets you respawn, also along with hating seeing your ship die... you hate to see it so much that your willing to forgo a better damage build and put more workload on your team just so you don't die..

      2: you can actually draw enough agro to make tanking an asset to your team, often times this is barely possible as most heal heavy ships don't push out enough damage to override the agro of the mobs... you may grab the attention of 1 or 2 ships, but meanwhile, your team members may be drawing their own agro from other mobs.. and the entire concept of tanking that comes from a long line of mmo games all the way back to 98' (I know, I played most all of them) requires a member of the team to take the bulk of the damage so that the healer can focus on keeping just 1 person alive opposed to swaping from team mate to team mate slowly getting over run... that's different then one guy that draws the attention of 1 or 2 mobs and makes sure HE doesn't die at the cost of the team having to do more damage just to get the job done faster


      as a person that has played sto for almost 4 years now, done tons of pve, done tons of pvp, I can honestly say:

      best ship in my opinion?

      best build/ship is one that can push out enough damage that they can handle a side of kitomer by themselves.. stopping/kill probes.. busting up the cubes.. and have the gate down if not ready to be taken down by the time the other team comes over.. that's a hell of a ship to have on a team for pve

      that build? that sort of ship? because of the flexibility of sto with ships- powers- builds- THAT ship can take many forms.. but don't forget.. that in the end the objective is what matters.. killing the other ships in a timely manner, getting the bonus, and not failing

      all other objectives come at the cost of the TEAM that you choose to go into the cue with, wana look cool in a connie? your team pays that price not you, wana fly a build modeled off the show? your team pays that price, wana build a ship that never dies? your team pays that price not you

      I consider myself a teamplayer, almost 2 decades of gaming has made me so, AS much as I would love to fly certain ships... play with certain powers.. (and trust me, if you knew me or the folks I have spent my time with on sto.. they would say the same thing, I got a LIST of powers I would love to fly with..but don't)

      That's because this is a team game, so making those Barbie choices, making those selfish choices, ALWAYS just come at the cost of your teammates

      again, im not against a build that can tank all the mobs... if he can pull the agro off me so that Im not taking the flak of 6 mobs at the same time? (doubt it) ill be happy to applaud that build,

      but then your probably talking a 5 sci console ship... so that he can get embassy consoles that add to agro.. and then your talking a area effect build... so that en-mass he can attract the attention of the mobs.. and then your probably talking a high damage build... cause its one thing to get the attention of the mobs for a second, its another to maintain it while your teammates start taking mobs out one after the other

      I say for anyone out there, try and advanced kitomer, try handling a side by yourself.. if you can pull that off consistently and not fail.. you got yourself a great pve build honestly

      if your struggling? then that means you probably don't belong in advanced or elite cues with that build and should stick to normal, especially if your convinced theres nothing wrong with your build and you wont change a thing..

      cause by bringing that ship in, all your doing is asking your teammates to carry you to victory lane

      because this is not a single player game there is other considerations to think about, you do have to consider the choices you make for your ship as well as in the stf that not only effects you, but 4 other people

      single player story missions? TOTALLY different animal, knock yourself out if you want to fly a connie painted pink that has nothing but heals on her and a turret- totally cool to do that:)

      I mostly agree with this. However, I would say that a fleet team or similar team of buddies that actually work together can make tanking viable. A tank with a known, functional team can aoe down the weak stuff with FAW while soaking all the trash damage while the other guys in the team heal him & pick off the bigger tougher ships one by one with overloads and focused fire -- if the marked to die target is peeled off the tank its not a problem in this game. The model breaks down because anyone playing like that with teamwork and such is usually a very good player in a group of very good players. Due to the defects in the game design, very good players of this caliber can generally keep themselves alive, spam aoe, and kill even faster than the man-to-man approach. Non coordinated teams of random players, you can't tank that no matter how good you are -- no one will heal you, and the high damage aoe will pull the stuff and the tank won't ever be able to hold it off the typical glass cannon random player. The groups that need tanks wont usually have one and when they do, it will be ineffective due to lack of a stated strategy and approach. The groups that might have an awesome tank don't need them because the game is too easy for extremely powerful players. The only place that tanking makes sense, if that is still going on, is the limited dps group channel...

    • harlequinpixieharlequinpixie Member Posts: 172 Arc User
      Liking the videos, as I run a Arbiter tank ship. And looking at how you built your ships gave me a few idea's to add to mine. So far, I usually draw nearly all the aggro on ISE, oops, Infected...advanced. It does bring great pleasure in knowing that other players with weaker ships can actually survive long enough to have fun in there. It also helps them gather the needed marks and so on.
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