Not to nitpick too much (this was a very, very well done episode IMO) but....
How did T'Ket know Sela was a Romulan, given Romulans were still Vulcans 200k years ago?
Kagran probably described the other members of our expedition to the Iconians while trying to locate us. We're lucky he neglected to mention that she was half human.
This is all especially funny when you consider the temporal gymnastics of how Sela exists at all.
Sela, child of Tasha Yar from an alternate timeline which was aborted by time travel, ends up with a pre-destination paradox which in turn creates an alternate timeline when it sends away Spock and Nero.
In Temporal Ambassador, if we had shot Tasha and taken her place, it would have stopped the Iconian War and erased the alternate reality from the new films.
I will say that some of this makes better sense of Butterfly. Without the discovery of the Iconians, Sela would never have engaged the predestination paradox that launched everything. That's why we couldn't accurately predict the timeline changes. There were too many alternate timelines intersecting to create the events we know.
If we delayed the return of the Iconians, they probably would never have a grudge against us. In turn, erasing the conduit probably caused the timeline to get really tangled up. When altering history, you have to consider the impact that alternate universes have on one another, including remnants of deleted timelines like Sela. That would be very difficult from our perspective.
It's not enough to know what happened and what could have happened but you have to account for other time travelers and the creation and deletion of people like Sela from splinter branches.
It's still a big ball of WTF that erasing the conduit worked but I think there's a case to be made that the existence of people like Sela (and alternate T'Nae if she's running around and for that matter Miles O'Brien -- technically from a deleted timeline -- and Harry Kim, from a split timeline) mean that it's not enough to think of causes and effects but you have to consider whether your actions will create a time traveler who alters the timeline further.
It's kind of like the Trek novel Engines of Destiny. Scotty goes back and saves Kirk from the Enterprise-B. However, because Kirk is never in the Nexus, Picard and company die in Soren's attack. Because there is no Picard, the Borg go back and stop First Contact. Saving Kirk on the Enterprise-B meant that Kirk was never born.
The Krenim approach would probably work if there were no time travelers to account for. However, altering one event may delete or create time travelers who alter your own past further. This could also be why time travel tends towards predestination because it's the most stable outcome whereas other possibilities tend to splinter off or delete themselves.
Kahless united the Klingons, but what REALLY cemented the Klingons into what they are today was the Hur'q invasion, and them being forced to combat an enemy from another world before they(The Klngons) even had warp drive.
A really interesting thought is that their emphasis on worthy adversaries and honor might actually be rooted in their hatred of the Hur'Q for picking on them while using the advantage of superior firepower.
How did T'Ket know Sela was a Romulan, given Romulans were still Vulcans 200k years ago?
That is a bit of a grey spot. I would guess that Kagran explained a few things.
That'd make sense actually
Kagran: "Excuse me, Iconian, but haven't you seen a Romulan? Green-blooded lady, 2 eyes, about that short, very bad temper, all "holier than thou" attitude, extravagant clothes, makes you want to punch her in the face whenever she opens her mouth?"
A description couldn't be clearer than this.
Though you could add that she loves the dramatic flair.
I'm just about to begin my first foray into "Midnight". Is it appropos to say "And now the Conclusion" in a Majel Barret voice before starting it?
Absolutely.
I think the biggest flaw of the episode was that in the beginning, you couldn't protest enough against the whole plan. I thought we had already decided against eradicating the Iconians. But that isn't quite true, as I know remember - we decided we can't remove them entirely from existence (the original use of the Krenim timeship), because that would alter way too much. But killing all of them off rather than let 12 live might not have such an impact. Still, I would have objected more stringently against it anyway.
The other flaw is that Sela doesn't die. But maybe that's also not possible - T'Ket's revenge would feel a bit empty if Sela could never see what her actions have done to her people...
It's interesting that T'Ket is still on a war path - that means we might not have seen the last of Iconian attackers. Now get on with making some Iconian Red Alerts or Iconian Deep Space Enemy Contacts so that in the future, people will be able to experience a bit more immersion when going through the Iconian War content.
The big strength of the ending is of course that we can end the war without further bloodshed. It is still a suboptimal solution we end up with, but anything bigger might have altered too much.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Without Trendy we don't appear to be getting an official thread for this mission sadly. Thought I'd swing by to simply say that I really enjoyed the last episode in the Iconian War arc. It was one of my favourite episodes so far.
Started off very shaky as I wasn't a fan of the premise of genocide, though it worked out well in the end. The battle over ESD could have been longer in my opinion as frankly it was the first time I actually felt there was a real war going on during the whole arc. But the outcome was agreeable and I'm glad it's dealt with in such a manner.
Join date is wrong, I've actually been around since STO Beta.
True alters don't have a "main". Account wide unlocks for all unique event rewards!!
Just finished the Episode and I'll be honest. It felt bleh, especially anticpating the Final Battle for more than 5 years.
First Part:
Kagren had to repeat the same things over and over. For instance, he talks to us personally then we go to the cutscene and he's repeating the same thing he just told me. And he does this a couple of times throughout the episode. I found that annoying.
The Battle of Earth:
Again it lacks the immersion of "hey this is the last stand". For an example, the background is full of ships (or christmas lights), and we got space debris, but the only fighting is between the NPCs fighting the player. Why isn't there explosions or energy beam discharges in the background? (We seen them battle before) Unaccessable NPC ships fighting one another In the semi-background? Also immortal Friendly NPC ships not blowing up (excepting those that are scripted) fighting obviously mortal Iconian Ships (yet Iconian ships supposed to be superior to our ships). To me, the lack of the environment around us just felt like just another medocre space battle with endless spawning npcs.
Iconia:
The environment was real nice, and actually felt like Classic Trek. Though Iconian design was sure different than the room we saw in TNG. Was surprised we were above the ground in a floating city. (Though the ground map felt more from orbit). And a nice Foundry trick in switching out assets and backgrounds, without changing maps when we exited the Temple.
But as sophisticated as they were, why were they not knowing an armada of jealous aliens were on the way. And yet why wasn't the visiting aliens not acting suspciously like they knew? That felt off.
The Twist:
We were the Other and Sela was the real blame for all of this. Ha! Well someone got it right we was the Other. Kudos to that person.
Continuity Error?: When the gate was activated, I honestly was half expecting us to end up on Dewa III and see the Dewans. But after thinking about it, the events in the LoR Recording doesn't seem to fit the continuity. In this episode, they escaped the fall of Iconia to Dewa III, but yet in the recording they escaped from Dewa III as it was attacked. So am I to assume that attack was post Fall of Iconia and the aliens followed them to Dewa III and that's when the Iconians went their seperate ways as they escaped through that gate? And the recording was the last of the Iconians that went through that gate as it was under attack?
The Ending: Okay so the war ended because we gave them their ball back? Knowledge is one thing, but the way this was handled is like the classic - fighting is over because we gave back an egg back to it's mother. After waiting 5 years, it felt so Anti-climatic. Seriously the war ended because they got their harddrive back? And as sophisticated as they were, they didn't have a backup? o.O
And all they wanted was their planet back? That's it? They moved solar systems, blew up planets, and started a galatic war, and yet they really didn't do anything with Iconia like sent ships to guard it. Or restablish their capital.
Overall, as much as people will disagree with me. It just felt meh.
Incidentally, the whole plot here is not terribly unlike the aborted Star Trek: Planet of The Titans feature film, which was being developed at one point prior to TMP. (With a Ralph MacQuarrie Enterprise design, done pre-Star Wars, which was almost a Star Destroyer prototype. That ship did later show up in TNG in a few junkyards.)
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
If nothing else, it was a stern warning about the dangers of overwork.
Two weeks' holiday on ancient Iconia, and Captain Kagran starts making good decisions. I reckon the whole Iconian war could've gone a lot better if he'd just taken some personal time now and then, just to de-stress a bit. You know it makes sense.
If nothing else, it was a stern warning about the dangers of overwork.
Two weeks' holiday on ancient Iconia, and Captain Kagran starts making good decisions. I reckon the whole Iconian war could've gone a lot better if he'd just taken some personal time now and then, just to de-stress a bit. You know it makes sense.
I assume Kagran was rebooted after 'Butterfly', even prior to travelling back he was being reasonable, acting very like the Klingons of yore. Honour means nothing if your Empire is dust. Gorkon would be proud.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The Ending: Okay so the war ended because we gave them their ball back? Knowledge is one thing, but the way this was handled is like the classic - fighting is over because we gave back an egg back to it's mother. After waiting 5 years, it felt so Anti-climatic. Seriously the war ended because they got their harddrive back? And as sophisticated as they were, they didn't have a backup? o.O
And all they wanted was their planet back? That's it? They moved solar systems, blew up planets, and started a galatic war, and yet they really didn't do anything with Iconia like sent ships to guard it. Or restablish their capital.
My impression was that the World Heart itself was only part of it, at least as important (and arguably more) was that it helped prove that you were the Other who saved them in the first place. Realizing that seemed to make L'Miren think (and T'Ket was indicated to be more of an oddity for the Iconians than L'Miren even before Iconia's fall) and look at what they'd been doing from other perspectives, and that was what pushed her into peace on the 'we get to be left alone on Iconia until we feel ready to interact with you' terms (which, come to think of it, are pretty much the same terms as the New Link wanted. Wonder if that'll be kept in the Cardassian Struggle revamp?).
After consideration, I'll just spoiler tag everything.
The reason the Iconians want the "ball" back, is something you noticed if you take a look into the background that they provide everyone.
First of all, the Heart is where all the core data is stored of their civilization. There are only 12 of them at the time and not all of them can remember however much information millenniums they have. They get their Heralds to do much of the manual work for them.
In essense, they are the CEOs of what are the Iconian "business". They may run it, but they really don't have any idea of how it actually works anymore. When they get attacked, they likely have gotten complacent and ignorant of how things should be handled. In a way, T'Ket is right that they had gotten soft and didn't realize they needed to have a backbone with those other races, which got themselves and us into this entire mess.
This would also explain why it took them so long to get around to retaliating. Imagine if you will, only hundreds of Heralds survive and the few Iconians. Rebuilding to that magnitude would've probably required that long. Especially without any actual technology or talent for war.
It also points to two things I really didn't want to know. That the Herald were the 'good' Dominion, before their creators went for vengeance. Heart broke upon seeing them for the first time. The other was the fact that T'Ket likely drove the others for revenge and was/is no different than Sela.
If we're going to have an end fight of end fights for STO, I definitely think us vs. T'Ket is very likely the go to now.
My impression was that the World Heart itself was only part of it, at least as important (and arguably more) was that it helped prove that you were the Other who saved them in the first place. Realizing that seemed to make L'Miren think (and T'Ket was indicated to be more of an oddity for the Iconians than L'Miren even before Iconia's fall) and look at what they'd been doing from other perspectives, and that was what pushed her into peace on the 'we get to be left alone on Iconia until we feel ready to interact with you' terms (which, come to think of it, are pretty much the same terms as the New Link wanted. Wonder if that'll be kept in the Cardassian Struggle revamp?).
Yes, that's true. But T'ket remembered Sela for over 200,000 years, but the Iconians didn't remember who YOU was? You think they would've questioned themselves saying "hey, that person who killed M'Tara looks like the Other, who saved us 200,000 years ago".
My impression was that the World Heart itself was only part of it, at least as important (and arguably more) was that it helped prove that you were the Other who saved them in the first place. Realizing that seemed to make L'Miren think (and T'Ket was indicated to be more of an oddity for the Iconians than L'Miren even before Iconia's fall) and look at what they'd been doing from other perspectives, and that was what pushed her into peace on the 'we get to be left alone on Iconia until we feel ready to interact with you' terms (which, come to think of it, are pretty much the same terms as the New Link wanted. Wonder if that'll be kept in the Cardassian Struggle revamp?).
Yes, that's true. But it was mishandled.
T'ket remembered Sela for over 200,000 years, but the Iconians didn't remember who YOU was? You think they would've questioned themselves saying "hey, that person who killed M'Tara looks like the Other, who saved us 200,000 years ago".
Well, it's not sure T'Ket remembered Sela specifically so much as the species name 'Romulan' (however she heard of that), and IIRC L'Miren does at least give a handwave about not having looked closely at you until now (I'd need to re-run the mission to check her exact wording, and while it was a nice enough mission I'm not really feeling up to it with three more re-runs looming in the following weeks).
Well, it's not sure T'Ket remembered Sela specifically so much as the species name 'Romulan' (however she heard of that), and IIRC L'Miren does at least give a handwave about not having looked closely at you until now (I'd need to re-run the mission to check her exact wording, and while it was a nice enough mission I'm not really feeling up to it with three more re-runs looming in the following weeks).
Well L"Miren's response came off more like she wasn't wearing her glasses and had to take a closer look.
Overall I liked it, as good an end to the arc as we could have expected. Just one thing that confuses me.
So, we go back in time to wipe out the Iconians properly 200,000 years in the past. Fine, I get that. But when we removed the Iconians from the timeline, the Vulcans ended up as galactic conquerors and a ton of other bad stuff. How would wiping them out properly not have ended in the same result?
Besides that, I liked the self-fulfilling prophecy aspect and actually upholding the Federation's ideals on Iconia.
Well L"Miren's response came off more like she wasn't wearing her glasses and had to take a closer look.
I think getting her legs shot off by Sela was probably the thing that stuck in her mind.
Sad that a certain someone had to go and ruin all the fun. The Iconians and the Federation could have been the best of friends. You have a Prime directive, we have a prime directive. You are tall highly developed space aliens, I' m a tall highly developed space alien, that finds tall highly developed six eyed aliens irresistible.....Wait, that started out diplomacy and ended up as Kirk diplomacy.
Well, it's not sure T'Ket remembered Sela specifically so much as the species name 'Romulan' (however she heard of that), and IIRC L'Miren does at least give a handwave about not having looked closely at you until now (I'd need to re-run the mission to check her exact wording, and while it was a nice enough mission I'm not really feeling up to it with three more re-runs looming in the following weeks).
Well L"Miren's response came off more like she wasn't wearing her glasses and had to take a closer look.
The only time L'Miren saw you before that was when she was grieving over her fallen sister and blinded by sorrow and rage.
Every other interaction with an Iconian has been either M'tara or T'Ket.
So, if we never used the tailor to so drastically alter ourselves after each mission to be completely unrecognizable, they'd have known us to be the Other before all this :P. *Silly head canon excuse*
I'm somewhere in the middle. I really like the solution being peaceful and the twist of your character being the other. The twist on Iconians being peaceful was always alluded to in lore, after all it was the victors who labeled them the "demons of air and darkness" not to mention Picard's passing interest in Iconian history. So that part fit well.
The cut scenes have been vastly improved in the past few episodes and I hope they keep that up. Much better than watching NPC's run through the basic hand gesturing emotes when talking.
As for the rest...the 180 from Kagran, the complete abandonment of what changes if any were inflicted after the first failed temporal incursion (are we still in an alternate timeline, were we ever?), and Sela. Oh my Sela. I've never understood her character. Her development was always razor thin both in the shows and in STO. She's like a wild card character that can be used to do just about anything and get away with it. She should have been beamed to the Iconian ship with you and struck down by T'Ket right before she took off.
I think getting her legs shot off by Sela was probably the thing that stuck in her mind.
Sad that a certain someone had to go and ruin all the fun. The Iconians and the Federation could have been the best of friends. You have a Prime directive, we have a prime directive. You are tall highly developed space aliens, I' m a tall highly developed space alien, that finds tall highly developed six eyed aliens irresistible.....Wait, that started out diplomacy and ended up as Kirk diplomacy.
Yep. Makes me wonder what's going to happen to Sela. She definitely can't go back to being the Empress now that Imperial and Republic Romulans will be gunning for her head. Wonder if the Dominion will take her in?
And I'm still wondering why they murdered the Preservers.
Also, also wondering if they're going to move Iconia to a new location given it would be pretty stupid to allow such a threat to remain in that area. One angry Romulan could reignite the war.
Well L"Miren's response came off more like she wasn't wearing her glasses and had to take a closer look.
I think getting her legs shot off by Sela was probably the thing that stuck in her mind.
Sad that a certain someone had to go and ruin all the fun. The Iconians and the Federation could have been the best of friends. You have a Prime directive, we have a prime directive.
I think there was a hint there as well. At one moment I was reflecting on the fact that I was playing a Federation character, and how much our values were shared by the Iconians (and suddenly by Kagran). I get the feeling that in future stories, the Federation may face a similar conflict. Much like the Kazon attacks on Voyager, but then on a larger scale.
Hmmm, I will be honest I remember reading about the DS9 dominion war, apparently some wanted it to be just a few episodes long but Ronald D Moore basicly said its supposed to be a war, you can't finish it in a 2 parter. This is what it feels like, it needed more episodes like some of the earlier arcs for it to actually feel like a war but it doesn't, you go on..play one mission..go away then return 4 weeks later.
And yes I could write something better (if anyones played my foundry series will know how immersive it can be ) though I really wonder how Vollana would handle the Iconians
Overall I liked it, as good an end to the arc as we could have expected. Just one thing that confuses me.
So, we go back in time to wipe out the Iconians properly 200,000 years in the past. Fine, I get that. But when we removed the Iconians from the timeline, the Vulcans ended up as galactic conquerors and a ton of other bad stuff. How would wiping them out properly not have ended in the same result?
Besides that, I liked the self-fulfilling prophecy aspect and actually upholding the Federation's ideals on Iconia.
My guess is that it's the "it's complicated" explanation I gave before. The problem with time travel isn't that we can alter history. If it were just us, we probably now have the computational power in Star Trek to be ruthlessly effective at it.
The problem is anticipating how it affects other time travelers.
If we remove the Iconians the wrong way, for example, then Romulus is never destroyed. If Romulus is never destroyed, maybe a Romulan is born who falls in love with a Vulcan who is killed by the Tal Shiar. He goes crazy, gets a time machine, and goes back to convert the ancient Vulcans into warlords.
That's a silly example but the point is that we have to not only anticipate the forward ripples of our time travel but the backward ripples as well since our time travel may prompt someone else to time travel and change an even further back point in history.
I think Sela was the x-factor in our plans even though it's never explicitly said. She's the result of an alternate timeline intersecting with ours and yet she is responsible for much of our own timeline.
For the current version of events to play out, the Enterprise-C had to be pulled forward, create a timeline where the Klingons and Federation are at war, alternate Tasha had to go back, prevent that timeline, give birth, and that child in turn would be responsible for events in the past.
If the Enterprise-C hadn't responded to the distress signal at Narendra III, Sela wouldn't exist and Romulus would be intact, probably. (There are complicating factors to that.) Or if we go back and have tea with Kirk, we might say something persuades him to save Edith Keeler in the 20th century and then the Federation would be wiped out. Time travelers have domino effects not just on history but on one another. If I alter something in 1940, it can have a variety of impacts on events PRIOR to 1940.
That, to me, suggests that we can't infer anything about what MUST happen based on a view of a given alternate timeline. If you alter history, the people in the history you alter can alter it further. Until you end up with a universe that has no time travel at all.
Now, that means that once you have time travel, you have to recognize that the equilibrium position is going to be that your timeline or anything like it is going to get wiped out. Because the natural shift is going to be people altering history in a series of alterations until time travel is no longer possible in the final, revised timeline.
So if you have a time machine, that means you're in a timeline that is likely to delete itself. At that point, you have to start thinking in terms of precautions and preparations to avoid being deleted.
Yep. Makes me wonder what's going to happen to Sela. She definitely can't go back to being the Empress now that Imperial and Republic Romulans will be gunning for her head. Wonder if the Dominion will take her in?
And I'm still wondering why they murdered the Preservers.
Also, also wondering if they're going to move Iconia to a new location given it would be pretty stupid to allow such a threat to remain in that area. One angry Romulan could reignite the war.
The preservers did nothing to stop the Iconians from getting hurt. The Iconians were deeply scarred, and in the far off parts of space that pain twisted them. They wanted revenge against anything and everyone that could hurt them. The question is more why it took so long for them to lash out at the "Parent" that they felt had abandon them? It was kind of a self-destructive action, as one would need to find more Preservers to help use the data to remake the Iconian people. I'm sure they can make Heralds back the way they once were, and hopefully untwist themselves, but it will take time. Not that time has ever been an issue for Iconians, but their rebirth will not be in the timeframe that a player will ever see.
Well L"Miren's response came off more like she wasn't wearing her glasses and had to take a closer look.
I think getting her legs shot off by Sela was probably the thing that stuck in her mind.
Sad that a certain someone had to go and ruin all the fun. The Iconians and the Federation could have been the best of friends. You have a Prime directive, we have a prime directive.
I think there was a hint there as well. At one moment I was reflecting on the fact that I was playing a Federation character, and how much our values were shared by the Iconians (and suddenly by Kagran). I get the feeling that in future stories, the Federation may face a similar conflict. Much like the Kazon attacks on Voyager, but then on a larger scale.
I was struck by how relevant is.
We give them purpose = We're the job creators.
They're not ready for the wealth/technology we have = We earned it. I've got mine, Jack.
There is a case to be made that the Prime Directive is in conflict with Trek's socialist utopia. From each according to his ability to each according to his needs, the Federation says... Unless those needs are too great and then we'll just watch you in secret and refuse to help... and then we'll help when you no longer need it.
Is the Federation the 1%? Is the Federation hoarding resources that would have greater utility elsewhere?
I really liked it, was fearing something as equally rushed as before.
The only thing I disliked about that Episode was
The absolutely anti-climatic battle over Earth, the background was way to static, not enough other active ships in the "Combat Zone" where we were and generally not much more than a patrol mission... would have been better with more ships, more combat and a tad more "desperation", maybe even a near destruciton of the Annorax or something like that.
Other than that it felt good. No massive Deus Ex Machina for a conventional battle victory but a bit of convoluted time travel, "Diplomacy" and very Trek-y.
Comments
This is all especially funny when you consider the temporal gymnastics of how Sela exists at all.
Sela, child of Tasha Yar from an alternate timeline which was aborted by time travel, ends up with a pre-destination paradox which in turn creates an alternate timeline when it sends away Spock and Nero.
In Temporal Ambassador, if we had shot Tasha and taken her place, it would have stopped the Iconian War and erased the alternate reality from the new films.
I will say that some of this makes better sense of Butterfly. Without the discovery of the Iconians, Sela would never have engaged the predestination paradox that launched everything. That's why we couldn't accurately predict the timeline changes. There were too many alternate timelines intersecting to create the events we know.
If we delayed the return of the Iconians, they probably would never have a grudge against us. In turn, erasing the conduit probably caused the timeline to get really tangled up. When altering history, you have to consider the impact that alternate universes have on one another, including remnants of deleted timelines like Sela. That would be very difficult from our perspective.
It's not enough to know what happened and what could have happened but you have to account for other time travelers and the creation and deletion of people like Sela from splinter branches.
It's still a big ball of WTF that erasing the conduit worked but I think there's a case to be made that the existence of people like Sela (and alternate T'Nae if she's running around and for that matter Miles O'Brien -- technically from a deleted timeline -- and Harry Kim, from a split timeline) mean that it's not enough to think of causes and effects but you have to consider whether your actions will create a time traveler who alters the timeline further.
It's kind of like the Trek novel Engines of Destiny. Scotty goes back and saves Kirk from the Enterprise-B. However, because Kirk is never in the Nexus, Picard and company die in Soren's attack. Because there is no Picard, the Borg go back and stop First Contact. Saving Kirk on the Enterprise-B meant that Kirk was never born.
The Krenim approach would probably work if there were no time travelers to account for. However, altering one event may delete or create time travelers who alter your own past further. This could also be why time travel tends towards predestination because it's the most stable outcome whereas other possibilities tend to splinter off or delete themselves.
A really interesting thought is that their emphasis on worthy adversaries and honor might actually be rooted in their hatred of the Hur'Q for picking on them while using the advantage of superior firepower.
Though you could add that she loves the dramatic flair.
Absolutely.
I think the biggest flaw of the episode was that in the beginning, you couldn't protest enough against the whole plan. I thought we had already decided against eradicating the Iconians. But that isn't quite true, as I know remember - we decided we can't remove them entirely from existence (the original use of the Krenim timeship), because that would alter way too much. But killing all of them off rather than let 12 live might not have such an impact. Still, I would have objected more stringently against it anyway.
The other flaw is that Sela doesn't die. But maybe that's also not possible - T'Ket's revenge would feel a bit empty if Sela could never see what her actions have done to her people...
It's interesting that T'Ket is still on a war path - that means we might not have seen the last of Iconian attackers. Now get on with making some Iconian Red Alerts or Iconian Deep Space Enemy Contacts so that in the future, people will be able to experience a bit more immersion when going through the Iconian War content.
The big strength of the ending is of course that we can end the war without further bloodshed. It is still a suboptimal solution we end up with, but anything bigger might have altered too much.
Started off very shaky as I wasn't a fan of the premise of genocide, though it worked out well in the end. The battle over ESD could have been longer in my opinion as frankly it was the first time I actually felt there was a real war going on during the whole arc. But the outcome was agreeable and I'm glad it's dealt with in such a manner.
Kagren had to repeat the same things over and over. For instance, he talks to us personally then we go to the cutscene and he's repeating the same thing he just told me. And he does this a couple of times throughout the episode. I found that annoying.
The Battle of Earth:
Again it lacks the immersion of "hey this is the last stand". For an example, the background is full of ships (or christmas lights), and we got space debris, but the only fighting is between the NPCs fighting the player. Why isn't there explosions or energy beam discharges in the background? (We seen them battle before) Unaccessable NPC ships fighting one another In the semi-background? Also immortal Friendly NPC ships not blowing up (excepting those that are scripted) fighting obviously mortal Iconian Ships (yet Iconian ships supposed to be superior to our ships). To me, the lack of the environment around us just felt like just another medocre space battle with endless spawning npcs.
Iconia:
The environment was real nice, and actually felt like Classic Trek. Though Iconian design was sure different than the room we saw in TNG. Was surprised we were above the ground in a floating city. (Though the ground map felt more from orbit). And a nice Foundry trick in switching out assets and backgrounds, without changing maps when we exited the Temple.
But as sophisticated as they were, why were they not knowing an armada of jealous aliens were on the way. And yet why wasn't the visiting aliens not acting suspciously like they knew? That felt off.
The Twist:
We were the Other and Sela was the real blame for all of this. Ha! Well someone got it right we was the Other. Kudos to that person.
Continuity Error?: When the gate was activated, I honestly was half expecting us to end up on Dewa III and see the Dewans. But after thinking about it, the events in the LoR Recording doesn't seem to fit the continuity. In this episode, they escaped the fall of Iconia to Dewa III, but yet in the recording they escaped from Dewa III as it was attacked. So am I to assume that attack was post Fall of Iconia and the aliens followed them to Dewa III and that's when the Iconians went their seperate ways as they escaped through that gate? And the recording was the last of the Iconians that went through that gate as it was under attack?
The Ending: Okay so the war ended because we gave them their ball back? Knowledge is one thing, but the way this was handled is like the classic - fighting is over because we gave back an egg back to it's mother. After waiting 5 years, it felt so Anti-climatic. Seriously the war ended because they got their harddrive back? And as sophisticated as they were, they didn't have a backup? o.O
And all they wanted was their planet back? That's it? They moved solar systems, blew up planets, and started a galatic war, and yet they really didn't do anything with Iconia like sent ships to guard it. Or restablish their capital.
Overall, as much as people will disagree with me. It just felt meh.
Give it a C+ for Effort.
It also made a cameo in Star Trek III.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Two weeks' holiday on ancient Iconia, and Captain Kagran starts making good decisions. I reckon the whole Iconian war could've gone a lot better if he'd just taken some personal time now and then, just to de-stress a bit. You know it makes sense.
I assume Kagran was rebooted after 'Butterfly', even prior to travelling back he was being reasonable, acting very like the Klingons of yore. Honour means nothing if your Empire is dust. Gorkon would be proud.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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The reason the Iconians want the "ball" back, is something you noticed if you take a look into the background that they provide everyone.
First of all, the Heart is where all the core data is stored of their civilization. There are only 12 of them at the time and not all of them can remember however much information millenniums they have. They get their Heralds to do much of the manual work for them.
In essense, they are the CEOs of what are the Iconian "business". They may run it, but they really don't have any idea of how it actually works anymore. When they get attacked, they likely have gotten complacent and ignorant of how things should be handled. In a way, T'Ket is right that they had gotten soft and didn't realize they needed to have a backbone with those other races, which got themselves and us into this entire mess.
This would also explain why it took them so long to get around to retaliating. Imagine if you will, only hundreds of Heralds survive and the few Iconians. Rebuilding to that magnitude would've probably required that long. Especially without any actual technology or talent for war.
It also points to two things I really didn't want to know. That the Herald were the 'good' Dominion, before their creators went for vengeance. Heart broke upon seeing them for the first time. The other was the fact that T'Ket likely drove the others for revenge and was/is no different than Sela.
If we're going to have an end fight of end fights for STO, I definitely think us vs. T'Ket is very likely the go to now.
Yes, that's true. But T'ket remembered Sela for over 200,000 years, but the Iconians didn't remember who YOU was? You think they would've questioned themselves saying "hey, that person who killed M'Tara looks like the Other, who saved us 200,000 years ago".
And yet the Iconians rebuilt without that knowledge.
Well L"Miren's response came off more like she wasn't wearing her glasses and had to take a closer look.
Besides that, I liked the self-fulfilling prophecy aspect and actually upholding the Federation's ideals on Iconia.
Sad that a certain someone had to go and ruin all the fun. The Iconians and the Federation could have been the best of friends. You have a Prime directive, we have a prime directive. You are tall highly developed space aliens, I' m a tall highly developed space alien, that finds tall highly developed six eyed aliens irresistible.....Wait, that started out diplomacy and ended up as Kirk diplomacy.
The only time L'Miren saw you before that was when she was grieving over her fallen sister and blinded by sorrow and rage.
Every other interaction with an Iconian has been either M'tara or T'Ket.
The cut scenes have been vastly improved in the past few episodes and I hope they keep that up. Much better than watching NPC's run through the basic hand gesturing emotes when talking.
As for the rest...the 180 from Kagran, the complete abandonment of what changes if any were inflicted after the first failed temporal incursion (are we still in an alternate timeline, were we ever?), and Sela. Oh my Sela. I've never understood her character. Her development was always razor thin both in the shows and in STO. She's like a wild card character that can be used to do just about anything and get away with it. She should have been beamed to the Iconian ship with you and struck down by T'Ket right before she took off.
Yep. Makes me wonder what's going to happen to Sela. She definitely can't go back to being the Empress now that Imperial and Republic Romulans will be gunning for her head. Wonder if the Dominion will take her in?
And I'm still wondering why they murdered the Preservers.
Also, also wondering if they're going to move Iconia to a new location given it would be pretty stupid to allow such a threat to remain in that area. One angry Romulan could reignite the war.
I think there was a hint there as well. At one moment I was reflecting on the fact that I was playing a Federation character, and how much our values were shared by the Iconians (and suddenly by Kagran). I get the feeling that in future stories, the Federation may face a similar conflict. Much like the Kazon attacks on Voyager, but then on a larger scale.
And yes I could write something better (if anyones played my foundry series will know how immersive it can be ) though I really wonder how Vollana would handle the Iconians
My guess is that it's the "it's complicated" explanation I gave before. The problem with time travel isn't that we can alter history. If it were just us, we probably now have the computational power in Star Trek to be ruthlessly effective at it.
The problem is anticipating how it affects other time travelers.
If we remove the Iconians the wrong way, for example, then Romulus is never destroyed. If Romulus is never destroyed, maybe a Romulan is born who falls in love with a Vulcan who is killed by the Tal Shiar. He goes crazy, gets a time machine, and goes back to convert the ancient Vulcans into warlords.
That's a silly example but the point is that we have to not only anticipate the forward ripples of our time travel but the backward ripples as well since our time travel may prompt someone else to time travel and change an even further back point in history.
I think Sela was the x-factor in our plans even though it's never explicitly said. She's the result of an alternate timeline intersecting with ours and yet she is responsible for much of our own timeline.
For the current version of events to play out, the Enterprise-C had to be pulled forward, create a timeline where the Klingons and Federation are at war, alternate Tasha had to go back, prevent that timeline, give birth, and that child in turn would be responsible for events in the past.
If the Enterprise-C hadn't responded to the distress signal at Narendra III, Sela wouldn't exist and Romulus would be intact, probably. (There are complicating factors to that.) Or if we go back and have tea with Kirk, we might say something persuades him to save Edith Keeler in the 20th century and then the Federation would be wiped out. Time travelers have domino effects not just on history but on one another. If I alter something in 1940, it can have a variety of impacts on events PRIOR to 1940.
That, to me, suggests that we can't infer anything about what MUST happen based on a view of a given alternate timeline. If you alter history, the people in the history you alter can alter it further. Until you end up with a universe that has no time travel at all.
Now, that means that once you have time travel, you have to recognize that the equilibrium position is going to be that your timeline or anything like it is going to get wiped out. Because the natural shift is going to be people altering history in a series of alterations until time travel is no longer possible in the final, revised timeline.
So if you have a time machine, that means you're in a timeline that is likely to delete itself. At that point, you have to start thinking in terms of precautions and preparations to avoid being deleted.
The preservers did nothing to stop the Iconians from getting hurt. The Iconians were deeply scarred, and in the far off parts of space that pain twisted them. They wanted revenge against anything and everyone that could hurt them. The question is more why it took so long for them to lash out at the "Parent" that they felt had abandon them? It was kind of a self-destructive action, as one would need to find more Preservers to help use the data to remake the Iconian people. I'm sure they can make Heralds back the way they once were, and hopefully untwist themselves, but it will take time. Not that time has ever been an issue for Iconians, but their rebirth will not be in the timeframe that a player will ever see.
I was struck by how relevant is.
We give them purpose = We're the job creators.
They're not ready for the wealth/technology we have = We earned it. I've got mine, Jack.
There is a case to be made that the Prime Directive is in conflict with Trek's socialist utopia. From each according to his ability to each according to his needs, the Federation says... Unless those needs are too great and then we'll just watch you in secret and refuse to help... and then we'll help when you no longer need it.
Is the Federation the 1%? Is the Federation hoarding resources that would have greater utility elsewhere?
That's a big question.
The only thing I disliked about that Episode was
Other than that it felt good. No massive Deus Ex Machina for a conventional battle victory but a bit of convoluted time travel, "Diplomacy" and very Trek-y.