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In New Dawn can we have something about V'ger
khan1000
Member Posts: 264 Arc User
like finding the Homeworld of V'ger as we know it in Delta or Andromeda
Fear the Dominion
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— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Sorry, but the machine homeworld didn't survive Y2K.
It's what they get for not updating their firewall. Common sense, they had none.
A personal example: Why would the Borg would see V'ger as a "Kindred Spirit", when what we know of the Borg, they disregard inferior technology or assimilate technology. Not repair it and send it off on it's merry way.
Then we got the irony where V'ger was repaired by "Machine people" when the Borg are part organic, and V'ger regards Organic life as inferior (I don't see V'ger overlooking the Borg organic-half). Of course that changed when Kirk revealed V'ger's origins was Organic and V'ger evolved to create a new techno-organic lifeform with Decker and Ilia. So to me they have contradicting directions in evolving. The Borg are organic (at the base) and strive to become a sentient machine life form. While V'ger went the opposite direction, where it was a machine and ultimately became a techo-organic lifeform. That's why (to me) I find it difficult to think V'ger had a connection to the Borg, unless V'ger was found before the Borg's creation and maybe an accident resulted in the birth of the Borg?
But I digress. When it comes to V'ger in STO, personally I'm really not wanting to see that happen. Leave it to as "one of those mysteries in Star Trek that shouldn't get answered". If anything V'ger is no longer the V'ger we know, its now a techno-organic lifeform that's likely more advanced than the Iconians. Maybe achieved a type of ascsendance. So that's why it's better off left alone.
There is the theory that V'Ger itself was the one who created the Borg, but that too seems contradicted by what we learned of them on Voyager. They had only assimilated a handful of system some 900 years ago and the Vaadwaur knew them well. I always thought that the older Borg looked more like 7 of 9 and didn't turn Zombie like until sometime later. That's why Gedrin instantly knew she was Borg, despite the fact she only has a handful of cybernetic implants visible on her body. He would know the Borg looked more like her in his time.
One theory could be that the primitive Borg encountered V'Ger and saw it as a godlike entity. The Borg Queen scoffs at their former self in First Contact when she says "Human! We used to be exactly like them. Flawed. Weak. Organic. But we evolved to include the synthetic." I can just imagine the older Borg encountering V'Ger which they come to admire and see as a form of perfection.
I would love to see a season, or multiple seasons, go back and learn about V'Ger's origins. If I were to write a storyline featuring V'Ger, I would include three major people: Jean luc Picard, 7 of 9 and Tom Paris. Picard and Seven are obvious because they are our Borg experts and Picard himself is a history buff and archaeologist, so learning about the Borg's ancient history would be right up his alley. Tom Paris was also a 20th century buff and an expert on ancient NASA missions so his expertise could be helpful. Sort of anyway. While Voyager 6 evolved and isn't important to this story right now, he could still investigate what this so called "Black Hole" was that consumed the probe. It was called Black Hole by the 20th century but it would seem people of the future know better.
First, if V'Ger traveled across the Delta Quadrant, then civilizations that we're currently on speaking terms with should remember it. At some point we should learn about this journey and began studying it in detail. As we investigate, we can uncover a larger mystery and perhaps discover who made V'Ger. Another interesting way to bring in Picard could involve his mind meld with Spock. Spock had mind melded with V'Ger and there could be something about V'Ger hidden in Picard's mind without him knowing about it. During our investigations he could start to have visions about V'Ger and the machine race that created it. Piece the clues together and discover who they really are.
Lastly, I would involve the discovery of another V'Ger. Not another Voyager Probe or anything like that, but perhaps another V'Ger shell which was constructed but not used. We can explore the inside of it and visit areas on foot that the crew of the Enterprise never did. V'Ger is so big, there could be space battles inside as we defend it from Borg or other civilizations trying to take it for themselves. This would be like fighting for the Dyson's Spheres in a way.
I think revisiting V'Ger would be absolutely amazing.
That, they're good.
I would love an original V'ger origin story. I was never a fan of the Borg theory. In STO, B'ger - an unofficial name, even within STO - is nothing more than a homage to that theory. As a pet project then current Producer for our game, Dan Stahl. Not indicative of an STO origin story. And certainly not set in stone anywhere that matters.
What I'm actually much more interested in would be the fate of V'ger. It's evolution. That's a story of the future. Though that isn't something I'd care to see ruined by the inclusion of our pew-pew mechanics. To keep some player's from being bored with sophisticated, science-fiction storytelling.
One of the most interesting Star Trek theories I've heard in a long time, even more interesting than Sha Ka Ree being an exiled Cytherian.
My only problem with it is that V'Ger would then take the blame for the borg. I'm not comfortable with that. I never pictured V'Ger as malevolent and I really like how it merged with humanity and moved on to other planes to explore. To have it responsible for one of the galaxy's worst threats doesn't sit well with me. But it's still damned interesting.
I think I might prefer to see the ancient borg race witness the unknown machine race turning the satellite into something awe-inspiringly advanced and thinking they can take that further and augment themselves, which ultimately backfires and turns them into a galactic menace.
But - maybe the Borg did encounter V'Ger once, and were "inspired" by its design? Maybe they actually assimilated a tiny bit of knowledge?
Maybe that's the real reason they are after Earth. They hope to find some more of that V'Ger tech.
Because other than that - have you ever seen the Borg assimilate any Federation technology? Sure "adapt" in the sense of "Oh, look, your phasers don't work anymore". But actually take a technology and make it their own?
Well, I don't know if I would say V'Ger is to blame for the Borg. It all really depends when V'Ger entered the Milky Way Galaxy and encountered them. According to the Vaadwaur, the Borg were assimilating star systems 900 years ago. Does this mean that V'Ger arrived here 900 years ago and influenced the Borg or were they already a menace before he arrived? Besides, I would think any influence V'Ger might have had on the Borg was unintentional on V'Ger's part. He didn't create the Borg on purpose, they were simply in awe of his appearance and began mimicking him. Can he be blamed for that?
The problem I have with this is that I believe V'Ger was created outside of our Galaxy. The Borg couldn't have witnessed his creation because they live here in our Galaxy. When they met V'Ger it would have been when it was already in its prime, just as the Klingons and Federation did.
Well the Borg did carve a section of the Enterprise and bring it aboard their vessel. I'm sure that would imply they assimilated Starfleet tech. A drone had also accessed the ship's library so all knowledge on Federation history and technological development would have been assimilated.
TNG-Borg's connection to V'Ger actually made a lot of sense if you think about it. They were a race of machines and while we can argue they are cyborgs, (because they are), we still have to remember that in TNG the Borg did not assimilate organics. Let's break it down:
V'Ger and the Borg at first were only interested in technology. Q says this of the Borg and Spock says this of the V'Ger probe. After V'Ger scanned the Enterprise computer, it took an organic and used her as a representative. After the Borg targeted humanity, they chose an organic as a representative. V'Ger wished to merge with its creator, the Borg wanted an equal to bridge the gap between humanity and the Borg.
This actually brings up an interesting connection. V'Ger seemed interested in technology and didn't really give a damn about the "carbon units". That is until it discovered humanity and learned that its creator was human. Once V'Ger discovered its creator, it desired to merge with it and together they evolved into a new life-form. After the Borg encountered humanity, their goal instantly changed. Instead of going for technology, suddenly they wanted humanity to be a part of them.
"I thought they weren't interested in Human lifeforms, only our technology."
"Their priorities seem to have changed."
"Resistance is futile. We wish to improve ourselves. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own."
Like V'Ger, the Borg desired humanity after encountering them. Perhaps this change was caused by the knowledge they gained from the Enterprise computer? Surely the information about V'Ger's trip to Earth in the 23rd century would be in the Enterprise computer, as would the information about what happened to V'Ger. If the Borg see V'Ger as a deity or symbol of perfection, then they would see V'Ger's evolution as something they also wish to achieve. The difference here is that the Borg wish to do this by any means neccessary and so they resort to force. Decker merged with V'Ger willingly and together evolved into a new life-form. As we learned in First Contact, the Borg have yet to encounter a human who would merge with them willingly.
Borg Queen: Are you offering yourself to us?
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: Offering myself...? That's it, I remember now! It wasn't enough that you assimilate me... I had to give myself freely to the Borg. To you!
Borg Queen: You flatter yourself! I've overseen the assimilition of countless millions. You were no different!
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: You're lying. You wanted more than just another Borg drone. You wanted a human being with a mind of his own, who could bridge the gulf between humanity and the Borg! You wanted a counterpart! But I resisted. I fought you.
Borg Queen: You can't begin to imagine the life you denied yourself.
In order to evolve, the Borg require humanity to give itself freely. This could very well be something they picked up from V'Ger.
Another interesting connection could be how the Borg Queen resorts to seduction when speaking with individuals. Decker wanted to merge with V'Ger because of his love of Ilia. If the Borg know of his feelings and see it as a way to convince individuals to join willingly, then this could explain her attempts. She might not be able to distinguish or understand human emotion and therefor doesn't see a distinction between love and biological sexuality.
In any case, I think the Director's Cut of TMP with the updated V'Ger ship, and the look of the Borg command ships in the Red Alerts being almost the same, STO is definitely trying to make the connection.
I'm not sure I'd buy a direct connection. I think rather than being a proto-Borg race, they were the initial machine-half of the Borg.
The whole story about V'ger doesn't fit the Borg...if the Borg were once fully machine...them becoming half machine half humanoid would be a step back...how or why would they go from fully technological to half tech/half humanoid?
Trying to tell me they found being half and half was more beneficial? Then why was the Borg Queen going about how Data was superior and that it would be a waste giving him flesh?
The whole Borg and V'ger thing doesn't make sense and the only thing that even loosely connects Voyager 6 and the Borg is the dev created Unimatrix ship...
My character Tsin'xing
Nope. In canon V'ger has no connection to Borg.
In Trek itself, no. But this is what people are referring to:
http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/V'Ger
Might have...but no what people I think are talking about is this
Moar V'ger please...
Why do you believe V'Ger was created outside our galaxy? Was that stated in the movie? I don't remember a whole lot about it. I thought it was just found adrift like 200 years in the past. The timeline between Voyager's launch and Kirk's Enterprise is only like 300 years. Not enough time for Voyager to get anywhere even close to the galaxy's border. But again I might have missed something about that in the movie.
EDIT: oh nevermind, I just read about V'Ger at Memory Alpha. It was pulled into a black hole and emerged presumably on the other side of the galaxy, so whoever is there is amazingly advanced. There's a highly advanced machine world and possibly even more advanced creator worlds. The Borg originated in the Delta quadrant, which I also just read at Memory Alpha (I forgot that fact). It's possible the black hole sent Voyager to the Delta quadrant, or maybe the Gamma quadrant we don't know. We also don't know about most of those quadrants so it's entirely possible that, in a way, the Borg and V'Ger share a common origin.
I prefer to think they do, in a way. I prefer to think Voyager was found by a machine species (which I'll now think lived far in the Delta quadrant) who lived in proximity to that humanoid race that became the Borg. The humanoid race observed the machine race create an incredibly advanced machine lifeform out of an extremely primitive probe, and were so in awe and so greedy they wanted to augment themselves with that same technology, but it backfired because they're humanoid. Both they and V'Ger inherited the desire to assimilate from that machine technology, but V'Ger's motivation to assimilate is from an unceasing desire to attain knowledge and is more innocent, like a cat killing a mouse: the cat does it not out of malice but simply because that's what it does. But the Borg's motivation is born of a desire to further their own power and force entire species to serve their Collective, against their will or not.
There's no right or wrong about this which is great
During Spock's spacewalk through V'Ger he observes recordings of V'Ger's journey and he mentions how entire planets and "whole galaxies" have been recorded.
http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/V'ger
I always thought V'Ger stayed within our galaxy (and was thus created within it as well) so it and the Borg could have been created in the same part of the galaxy. I never gave thought to what specific part of the galaxy it was since I forgot where the Borg came from.
It may have been formed in another galaxy too for all we know. I honestly don't know if it's ever stated where the black hole sent Voyager. I can only go by Memory Alpha until I watch the movie again.
There's no specific connection between V'Ger and the Borg in any Star Trek I'm familiar with aside from STO, even if the two seem similar. It's like Sha Ka Ree and the Cytherians: both live at the center of the galaxy, both appear as disembodied ethereal heads, both have amazing powers, both bring ships and humanoids to them - one as a way of exploring and one presumably (to me) as a way of escaping some sort of confinement - but it's never stated or even implied that they're the same species.