The playable Romulans in STO do not represent the Romulans memorable from the show. That's a pretty safe fact
I can't begin to think of a single Romulan from "the show" (forget the plural there?) more memorable than Keras and the Centurion, and Di'on t'Charvon and Tal.
Not everything is a rhetoric debate. It was honest concern, not an attempt to poke holes in your arguments. I can't understand making ones "layalties" a subject when we're talking about a tv show and sci-fi videogame. It confuses me, genuinely.
About the show (as in Star trek, containing different series) which Romulan strikes one as memorable is certainly subjective, but you can't play TOS Romulans either, that fact remains. I can fly a ship, buy a costume, but whenever I am with the NPCs of the faction they don't use "their" weapons, they don't wear "their" uniforms and they don't command "their" ships (granted, there are few canon ships to choose from but I personally liked that the D'D was pretty much the 'only' starship in the Romulan navy in TNG, at least operating outside of Romulan space. I thought it was actually a good thing, nice characterization - again, genuinely).
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
While I have not the luxury of being familiar with TOS Romulans - I have seen them throughout the other incarnations of Trek - even in the insanity that was the 2009 movie, that the Romulans were a proud and VERY self preservationist. This is not xenophobic - they did not trust the other powers in the Galaxy - and for good reason.
The idea that after the homeworld was destroyed that the Empire would immediately fracture into this weak and pitiful excuse of a faction is absurd... Tragedy always brings unity - and this would mean the D'Tan and his loyalists were not looking out for the Romulan people in general, they were looking for an opportunity to assert their own ideological goals...
Do I like Sela? No - I found her appearance in Trek as idiotic... The Enterprise-C was destroyed at Nerendra III - but mysteriously Yar is captured? We know how Yar was in TNG - she was stubborn, and a fighter... Who in their right mind believes she simply became a consort to a Romulan General - and gave birth to Sela blah blah blah -
The Empire was destroyed by writers with a desire to make the Federation the focus of everything - (not that that truly bothers me - as the Federation has always been the main focus of Star Trek - ) and just give them one less real opponent. The Republic is not anything that can challenge the imperialistic Starfleet - it is a lapdog.. I know that offends, but how is a sub-par republic that begs for help from both Federation and Klingon assets going to be anything but a lapdog to both? Is D'Tan going to stand up against the ever expanding goals of the 'peaceful' Starfleet? No - because they paid for New Romulus... Is D'Tan going to push back against the KDF when they try to annex more of old Romulan space? No - because they helped destroy Tal'Shiar fleets that threatened the Romulan Rebels -
So of course Starfleet jumped at it - I admit that the delegation on Khitomer was idiotic - however they were there because the Federation wanted to be part of the beginning of the RR - so that the strings could be pulled later.. the same with the Klingons -
If D'Tan had truly cared for the Romulan people - he would NOT have splintered the Empire, instead he would have pledged that himself and his people would work for the RSE, thus making it stronger, and bringing the ideals of the RR to a point that showed that they were for the people - not personal power.
(Yes I know this is all Sci-Fi - and fiction... but come on - doesn't hurt to be involved in it lol)
Picard and his gang of misfits (Commander Quagmire, his sometime-girlfriend Counselor State-the-Obvious, Pinocchio aspiring to be a real boy, a blind helmsman, and Microbrain, not to mention Doctor I'm-here-as-a-thinly-veiled-love-interest-for-the-captain-and-otherwise-have-no-real-purpose and her son Annoying Boy Geekwiz)
While I have not the luxury of being familiar with TOS Romulans - I have seen them throughout the other incarnations of Trek - even in the insanity that was the 2009 movie, that the Romulans were a proud and VERY self preservationist. This is not xenophobic - they did not trust the other powers in the Galaxy - and for good reason.
The idea that after the homeworld was destroyed that the Empire would immediately fracture into this weak and pitiful excuse of a faction is absurd... Tragedy always brings unity - and this would mean the D'Tan and his loyalists were not looking out for the Romulan people in general, they were looking for an opportunity to assert their own ideological goals...
Do I like Sela? No - I found her appearance in Trek as idiotic... The Enterprise-C was destroyed at Nerendra III - but mysteriously Yar is captured? We know how Yar was in TNG - she was stubborn, and a fighter... Who in their right mind believes she simply became a consort to a Romulan General - and gave birth to Sela blah blah blah -
If you look and read closely with the Romulans in TNG -the whole "superiority racist"trope is just rubbish -They allow a half breed made part up of an alien enemy to rise to the rank of commander, Her Romulan father had no issue mating with an alien-they accept Human defectors -Hell one gives up his career to marry a Klingon-just to many tng Romulan haters.
How can a "star empire" that has been blood enemies with one of the largest warlike races in quadrant Klingons for 75 years by the time of TNG be so fragile that one world is wiped out (If we belive st TRIBBLE 09) no one evacuated and every Romulan of note died than -its stupid, futhermore in Nemesis -even with senate wiped out the Empire held. Why because the Romulan military backed the coup -the Fleet would be everywhere within the Empire.
Plus if you do have a society that has massive surveillance structure like the tal shiar deemed by the dominion to be one of its biggest threats its clear is not just sitting on Romulus.
I agree Lucifer666 What we would see is the Romulans unite and strike back anyone who would attempt to move across the border.
I like Sela -I thought she was an interesting character in the show and novels but in STO just a mess.
While I have not the luxury of being familiar with TOS Romulans - I have seen them throughout the other incarnations of Trek - even in the insanity that was the 2009 movie, that the Romulans were a proud and VERY self preservationist. This is not xenophobic - they did not trust the other powers in the Galaxy - and for good reason.
The idea that after the homeworld was destroyed that the Empire would immediately fracture into this weak and pitiful excuse of a faction is absurd... Tragedy always brings unity - and this would mean the D'Tan and his loyalists were not looking out for the Romulan people in general, they were looking for an opportunity to assert their own ideological goals...
Do I like Sela? No - I found her appearance in Trek as idiotic... The Enterprise-C was destroyed at Nerendra III - but mysteriously Yar is captured? We know how Yar was in TNG - she was stubborn, and a fighter... Who in their right mind believes she simply became a consort to a Romulan General - and gave birth to Sela blah blah blah -
If you look and read closely with the Romulans in TNG -the whole "superiority racist"trope is just rubbish -They allow a half breed made part up of an alien enemy to rise to the rank of commander, Her Romulan father had no issue mating with an alien-they accept Human defectors -Hell one gives up his career to marry a Klingon-just to many tng Romulan haters.
How can a "star empire" that has been blood enemies with one of the largest warlike races in quadrant Klingons for 75 years by the time of TNG be so fragile that one world is wiped out (If we belive st TRIBBLE 09) no one evacuated and every Romulan of note died than -its stupid, futhermore in Nemesis -even with senate wiped out the Empire held. Why because the Romulan military backed the coup -the Fleet would be everywhere within the Empire.
Plus if you do have a society that has massive surveillance structure like the tal shiar deemed by the dominion to be one of its biggest threats its clear is not just sitting on Romulus.
I agree Lucifer666 What we would see is the Romulans unite and strike back anyone who would attempt to move across the border.
I like Sela -I thought she was an interesting character in the show and novels but in STO just a mess.
The idea that they did not evacuate Romulus - and that the entire power of the Empire was nestled entirely on one planet in a vast Empire is slightly small minded on the part of the writers (be they on STO or canon)... So I agree - It is insane that this would have brought about the destruction of anything... They would have become even more powerful... The Tal'Shiar were indeed one of the most powerful forces in the Galaxy, - they would NOT have worked with the Elachi or the Iconians - because they destroyed Romulus... The Tal'Shiar may be evil from a Federation view point... but when push came to shove they would not have sided with the people who slaughtered billions of their people...
Picard and his gang of misfits (Commander Quagmire, his sometime-girlfriend Counselor State-the-Obvious, Pinocchio aspiring to be a real boy, a blind helmsman, and Microbrain, not to mention Doctor I'm-here-as-a-thinly-veiled-love-interest-for-the-captain-and-otherwise-have-no-real-purpose and her son Annoying Boy Geekwiz)
Part of the issue, I suspect, is that you are looking at it as Rhetorical Debate. I don't really do Rhetoric, as I view it as sophistry. My field is Logic.
I can't understand making ones "layalties" a subject when we're talking about a tv show and sci-fi videogame. It confuses me, genuinely.
Fans of any sort of entertainment have loyalties and rivalries. I can't see how you would be confused by this, seeing as both Bosnia and Germany (and many other nations) have experienced riots over something as mundane as football (soccer). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_hooliganism
About the show (as in Star trek, containing different series) which Romulan strikes one as memorable is certainly subjective, but you can't play TOS Romulans either, that fact remains. I can fly a ship, buy a costume, but whenever I am with the NPCs of the faction they don't use "their" weapons, they don't wear "their" uniforms and they don't command "their" ships (granted, there are few canon ships to choose from but I personally liked that the D'D was pretty much the 'only' starship in the Romulan navy in TNG, at least operating outside of Romulan space. I thought it was actually a good thing, nice characterization - again, genuinely).
The D'deridex is in-game. The Mogai is from Nemesis, and is also in-game. The T'liss is in-game, as is the D7, and so is the T'varo. The Romulan Science/Scout ship is also in-game (the Commander's Gig, with its two templates). A scaled-down Scimitar is in-game. NPCs use the D'deridex, the Mogai, and the Scimitar. In fact, I do not remember any NPCs in STO who do not use one of those ships from hard canon, apart from Temer, who uses a Dhelan, and a few other Dhelanir which show up in various missions commanded by nameless Republic Romulans.
TOS and TNG Romulan uniforms are available in the C-store. Disruptors are available in various places, both for ships and as ground weapons. You can even get a TOS disruptor pistol, from the Spectres arc. If you want to RP as a TOS Romulan or a TNG Romulan, the resources are (mostly) there to facilitate that. That's not the point, though. The point is that the Republic has significantly more in common with TOS Romulans than it does with most of the Romulans depicted in TNG, and claims that Republic Romulans are "not like the Romulans from the shows" ignore that reality.
Additionally, limiting the Imperial Star Navy to a single class of ship would be extremely impractical. No military would be so short-sighted as to put all their eggs in one basket; different tasks call for different tools. Add to that the fact that STO is not set in the era of any series or movie; gameplay starts in 2409, whereas the final episode of VOY was set in 2378, and the most recent movie (apart from the ... um ... "reboot" movies), Nemesis, was set in 2379. That's 30 years. I cannot see why the idea that additional developments would take place over that 3 decades would be a stumbling-block.
Finally, when it comes to RP, although the official storyline is what it is, there's no rule which forbids the player from RPing in any era of Trek, from the first day of ENT all the way to 2410 and beyond (remember, Temporal Lockbox can net you a R'Mor Temporal Science Vessel from the future, and the Lobi Consortium will sell you a Talvath Temporal Destroyer which is not only from the future, but also from one of the Mirror Universes). So, yes, I can play a TOS Romulan, a TNG Romulan, or any other sort of Romulan, including a temporally-displaced Romulan from the ENT era living in 2410. RP is limited only by the limitations of the RPer's imagination and any concessions she or he may wish to make to the very inconsistent material from hard canon, the still more inconsistent material from soft canon, and the also inconsistent material from STO itself, and any RP group's restrictions to which she or he is willing to submit.
Part of the issue, I suspect, is that you are looking at it as Rhetorical Debate. I don't really do Rhetoric, as I view it as sophistry. My field is Logic.
I can't understand making ones "layalties" a subject when we're talking about a tv show and sci-fi videogame. It confuses me, genuinely.
Fans of any sort of entertainment have loyalties and rivalries. I can't see how you would be confused by this, seeing as both Bosnia and Germany (and many other nations) have experienced riots over something as mundane as football (soccer). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_hooliganism
About the show (as in Star trek, containing different series) which Romulan strikes one as memorable is certainly subjective, but you can't play TOS Romulans either, that fact remains. I can fly a ship, buy a costume, but whenever I am with the NPCs of the faction they don't use "their" weapons, they don't wear "their" uniforms and they don't command "their" ships (granted, there are few canon ships to choose from but I personally liked that the D'D was pretty much the 'only' starship in the Romulan navy in TNG, at least operating outside of Romulan space. I thought it was actually a good thing, nice characterization - again, genuinely).
The D'deridex is in-game. The Mogai is from Nemesis, and is also in-game. The T'liss is in-game, as is the D7, and so is the T'varo. The Romulan Science/Scout ship is also in-game (the Commander's Gig, with its two templates). A scaled-down Scimitar is in-game. NPCs use the D'deridex, the Mogai, and the Scimitar. In fact, I do not remember any NPCs in STO who do not use one of those ships from hard canon, apart from Temer, who uses a Dhelan, and a few other Dhelanir which show up in various missions commanded by nameless Republic Romulans.
TOS and TNG Romulan uniforms are available in the C-store. Disruptors are available in various places, both for ships and as ground weapons. You can even get a TOS disruptor pistol, from the Spectres arc. If you want to RP as a TOS Romulan or a TNG Romulan, the resources are (mostly) there to facilitate that. That's not the point, though. The point is that the Republic has significantly more in common with TOS Romulans than it does with most of the Romulans depicted in TNG, and claims that Republic Romulans are "not like the Romulans from the shows" ignore that reality.
Additionally, limiting the Imperial Star Navy to a single class of ship would be extremely impractical. No military would be so short-sighted as to put all their eggs in one basket; different tasks call for different tools. Add to that the fact that STO is not set in the era of any series or movie; gameplay starts in 2409, whereas the final episode of VOY was set in 2378, and the most recent movie (apart from the ... um ... "reboot" movies), Nemesis, was set in 2379. That's 30 years. I cannot see why the idea that additional developments would take place over that 3 decades would be a stumbling-block.
Finally, when it comes to RP, although the official storyline is what it is, there's no rule which forbids the player from RPing in any era of Trek, from the first day of ENT all the way to 2410 and beyond (remember, Temporal Lockbox can net you a R'Mor Temporal Science Vessel from the future, and the Lobi Consortium will sell you a Talvath Temporal Destroyer which is not only from the future, but also from one of the Mirror Universes). So, yes, I can play a TOS Romulan, a TNG Romulan, or any other sort of Romulan, including a temporally-displaced Romulan from the ENT era living in 2410. RP is limited only by the limitations of the RPer's imagination and any concessions she or he may wish to make to the very inconsistent material from hard canon, the still more inconsistent material from soft canon, and the also inconsistent material from STO itself, and any RP group's restrictions to which she or he is willing to submit.
Very well said - and the idea that the ISN would only have a small array of ships is indeed short sighted - the idea that the amount of ships seen in on-screen representations is small due to finite budget... Much like most Klingons depicted on television seemed to have only Bird-of-prey style ships - every time... so the D'deridex was used in the same manner - because at that time they could not physically and financially afford to display a diverse Romulan fleet - however they would undoubtedly have a rather diverse fleet - as seen in game - and if one expands the imagination to that outside of the Federation - the possibilities within the RSE would have been endless and well rounded... Because frankly, the Romulans posses much more potential than is seen from a Federation driven viewpoint.
As far as RP - that can be limited based on the locked decisions of the episodes, and the lack of ability to act as a RSE ship marauding Federation vessels, or Klingon bases - so the game itself does limit the ability of the imagination to be fully taken advantage of -
Picard and his gang of misfits (Commander Quagmire, his sometime-girlfriend Counselor State-the-Obvious, Pinocchio aspiring to be a real boy, a blind helmsman, and Microbrain, not to mention Doctor I'm-here-as-a-thinly-veiled-love-interest-for-the-captain-and-otherwise-have-no-real-purpose and her son Annoying Boy Geekwiz)
I can't begin to think of a single Romulan from "the show" (forget the plural there?) more memorable than Keras and the Centurion, and Di'on t'Charvon and Tal.
Because you despise anything not those 2 episodes, and have these really awesome blinders on that allow you to ignore and mock anything not those 2 or your favorite novel series. You do this A LOT but are quite dismissive of opposing opinions on the subject.
Like I said on the previous page... I don't see where those 2 episodes cannot or do not fit with what we see in TNG/DS9
Agreed, and this is to what it boils down eventually - we don't have other options and negotiation is pointless. We have to play what Cryptic came up with, and Cryptic, in my opinion, made countless "mistakes" when STO was designed.
Not the least of which was rushing development. I also agree.. this is what we have, cant change it cant get them to change it. We're stuck tryin to polish a TRIBBLE
I would be hyped to see a TOS (not movie) set game with three factions, explorations, outposts and RvR mechanic. But well...
The problem with that is several fold I think, same reason the original starfleet command game used all movie era models and design aesthetic. One company holds the license for ToS, another for Movie era, etc. Not sure if thats true still but it was at one point. Add to that CBS doesn't want the flagship "Trek" mmo rooted in the past. Personally I would kill for Wrath of Khan era for this mmo but it aint gonna happen.
The idea that after the homeworld was destroyed that the Empire would immediately fracture into this weak and pitiful excuse of a faction is absurd... Tragedy always brings unity - and this would mean the D'Tan and his loyalists were not looking out for the Romulan people in general, they were looking for an opportunity to assert their own ideological goals...
The hearthworld was destroyed in 2387. The Star Empire did not immediately fracture, but it did experience the full measure of the machinations of what the leadership had devolved into, with multiple factions vying for power, and Donatra even leading a schismatic state for a while before reconciling with the Star Empire. This is entirely consistent with the predominant portrayal of Romulans in TNG (and to a lesser extent, the later series). It is the logical outgrowth of a story which features a culture whose political class advances through Machiavellian deceit, scheming, and backstabbing.
D'Tan was looking out for the people. He was not looking to prop up a corrupt and decadent political structure which had stopped serving the people decades earlier. Distinguishing between a people and their government is important. Also, it is established by Cryptic that D'Tan was not the founder or leader of the movement, but was elected by those who did start the movement to be their leader. It is also established by Cryptic that those who did start the movement were high-ranking military personnel who had had enough of the Tal'Shiar.
Do I like Sela? No - I found her appearance in Trek as idiotic... The Enterprise-C was destroyed at Nerendra III - but mysteriously Yar is captured? We know how Yar was in TNG - she was stubborn, and a fighter... Who in their right mind believes she simply became a consort to a Romulan General - and gave birth to Sela blah blah blah -
And I agree, it makes little sense, in several particulars, that Sela would even exist.
The Empire was destroyed by writers with a desire to make the Federation the focus of everything - (not that that truly bothers me - as the Federation has always been the main focus of Star Trek - ) and just give them one less real opponent.
I disagree with that. "Path to 2409" predates LoR by 5 years. Until LoR, the Republic was not a thing in STO, yet the civil war and the factionalism (to say nothing of the incompetence and narcissism of the political leadership) within the RSE were tearing the RSE apart even in "Path to 2409."
The Republic is not anything that can challenge the imperialistic Starfleet - it is a lapdog.. I know that offends, but how is a sub-par republic that begs for help from both Federation and Klingon assets going to be anything but a lapdog to both? Is D'Tan going to stand up against the ever expanding goals of the 'peaceful' Starfleet? No - because they paid for New Romulus... Is D'Tan going to push back against the KDF when they try to annex more of old Romulan space? No - because they helped destroy Tal'Shiar fleets that threatened the Romulan Rebels -
To characterize what happened at the Khitomer Conference as "begging" betrays a bias. No such thing occurred. Seeking alliance is something all sovereign polities do, unless they actually be xenophobic and isolationist. Our most powerful assets are our own, not Federation or Klingon. We have our own T5 (and now T5-U and T6) assets. We've had T5 assets since before the Khitomer Conference. "Alliance" is not "vassalage," nor even "clientship." The Republic is a sovereign polity, and will defend its own interests against even its allies, as we saw with regard to the Gateway in the Jouret system. You can of course pretend that didn't happen, but it did happen, whether it will fit your view of the Republic or not.
So of course Starfleet jumped at it - I admit that the delegation on Khitomer was idiotic - however they were there because the Federation wanted to be part of the beginning of the RR - so that the strings could be pulled later.. the same with the Klingons -
They wanted no part of the Republic, nor did the Klingons. Perhaps you should replay the mission and pay closer attention. The Klingons were less offensive than T'nae (pretty shocking, unless T'nae be an Undine infiltrator or just plain batguano crazy, either of which is a distinct possibility), but they were not terribly keen on the idea of alliance with Romulans either.
If D'Tan had truly cared for the Romulan people - he would NOT have splintered the Empire, instead he would have pledged that himself and his people would work for the RSE, thus making it stronger, and bringing the ideals of the RR to a point that showed that they were for the people - not personal power.
The Empire was already splintered by its own devices. The Tal'Shiar was widely hated by everyone except the political class (and even by some of them), yet they had considerable power (most of which they usurped or gained by use of ill-gotten wealth which they stole from the noble Houseclans after the assassination of Tal'Aura). Donatra led her own schismatic "Imperial Romulan State" for four years (2381-2385). The exact date of the founding of the Republic is not easy to determine (the only source I have so far found implied that it was at the end of the 24th or beginning of the 25th century, so I have said that 2399 was when the movement got organized as a result of the assassination of General tr'Tebok, and 2400 was when the actual departure and declaration of independence occurred, but these two dates are of course only canon for my fleets, until and unless Cryptic provides more details on exactly when the Republic was established). According to the real-world Montevideo Conference on the Rights and Duties of States, external recognition is not necessary for a state to exist as such, so recognition of the Republic in 2409 by the UFP and the Klingon Empire did not establish the Republic, in spite of this date being now given for the founding by both the STO Wiki and Memory Beta. At any rate, the Imperial Romulan State was by no means the only example of factionalism among Romulans and Remans post-Hobus and pre-Republic. Tal'Aura, Donatra. Taris, Tebok, Tomalak, Sela, Xiomek, these are only a few of the names involved in the infighting within the RSE (see "Path to 2409," a Cryptic publication which predates LoR by 5 years). Again, D'Tan is not the cause of schism among the Romulan people, and blaming D'Tan for things he inherited is the tactic of a partisan ideologue, not someone who looks at the whole picture of history rationally.
I can't begin to think of a single Romulan from "the show" (forget the plural there?) more memorable than Keras and the Centurion, and Di'on t'Charvon and Tal.
Because you despise anything not those 2 episodes, and have these really awesome blinders on that allow you to ignore and mock anything not those 2 or your favorite novel series. You do this A LOT but are quite dismissive of opposing opinions on the subject.
That's completely inaccurate, Kodachi, and you know it. I have pointed to the unnamed Romulan Commander in TNG episode "The Chase." I have pointed to Dr. tr'R'Mor, I have pointed to Alidar tr'Jarok, I have pointed to D'Tan and the other "Unificationists" in TNG, as examples of TOS Romulan attitudes still existing in TNG and the later series. What I despise was the decision of the writers of TNG to sell the Romulans down the river and turn them into a culture of dogs terrorized by the fascist police state of their "masters," instead of the wolves they were before, with notable exceptions such as those mentioned above. The government of the RSE under Praetor Vrax (the Praetor who sent Keras on the mission seen in "Balance of Terror") was militaristic, yes, because Vrax was a politician who wanted to make a name for himself (the only thing in this which is not from hard canon is the name "Vrax"). Militarism and fascism, however, are not coterminous. Put another way, all fascism may be militaristic, but not all militarism is fascist. By the time of TEI, Vrax was gone (soft canon, yes, but you don't see her terribly worried about what her Praetor might think or attempting to hide things she was doing from anyone in her crew the way Keras did).
Like I said on the previous page... I don't see where those 2 episodes cannot or do not fit with what we see in TNG/DS9.
I dunno. Maybe, for one thing, ask Marc Okrand what the letters over the Imperial Raptor are supposed to mean, and contrast that with Di'on t'Charvon offering amnesty to the crew of the Enterprise? Maybe, for another thing, compare the ideal of "duty" held by tr'Keras with the blind obedience out of fear which was more typical among the TNG Romulan military? Maybe just look at the attitudes in general? Maybe compare and contrast "The Way of D'era" with what you see in the TOS episodes (and yeah, LUG isn't hard canon, but it was licensed by Paramount/Viacom because the latter didn't like FASA's take on things and pulled their license and gave it to LUG precisely because they wanted the Trek RPG to be consistent with the TNG vision, of Romulans and other things). Or maybe just notice how many people on both sides of this issue make distinctions between TOS Romulans and TNG Romulans.
Or maybe stop TRYING to force your limited vision onto everything. I'm not arguing with people over this, people are f*king stupid easily frightened herd animals, I'm arguing this with individuals. I don't reference LUG or FASA because these are NOT canon, and thus I couldn't care less. I love FASA ships most of the time, but they aren't canon and having been 1)licensed and 2)part of a different era, I'll never see em in STO. I've seen ship like the Dhelan that look inspired by those designs, which I thought was really cool. But nothing LUG or FASA has any bearing here.
And yes, I have watched you put on your own set of blinders and rail at and refuse any position or opinion you don't like and contrasts with your own idea of Romulans. Its why I gave up on trying to argue it with you before. You are dead set on X and to hades with anything else. You use the examples from TNG as exceptions, you throw them out as abberations that show how ToS is validated. Stop and consider a different angle... Perhaps one of the reasons that these named and unnamed examples from TNG that we can point to are there because Romulan Society HAS NOT CHANGED THAT MUCH.
Its completely possible your favorite Romulan heroine was lying through her teeth about 'amnesty' and had every intention of capturing the Enterprise and her crew to catapult her career into an Admiral's uniform, possibly even the start of a Senatorial run. Considering the parallels between Rome and the Star Empire, its quite possible that military power equated to political power and vice versa, just like Rome. Capturing a famous Federation starship, her (in)famous Captain and crew would have been a coup for a Klingon too. Imagine the glory and prestige if a USA Captain had captured the German Bismark and its crew and sailed it back to Norfolk. We don't know, that side of the story was and will never be told. But the very fact that she took the direction of trying to capture it intact as a prize tells us things. Compare that with actions in TNG and later, and we can see several possible motives easily. Sure she took a liking to Spock, that was icing on her cake if she could get him too, but not her initial objective nor her main focus.
I recently watched both the ToS episodes again, and if you do so with the knowledge of how Romulans act in TNG and later, they fit in well, you might see them in a different light than you did earlier, but they are NOT the glaring inconsistency you try to make them into.
The idea that after the homeworld was destroyed that the Empire would immediately fracture into this weak and pitiful excuse of a faction is absurd... Tragedy always brings unity - and this would mean the D'Tan and his loyalists were not looking out for the Romulan people in general, they were looking for an opportunity to assert their own ideological goals...
The hearthworld was destroyed in 2387. The Star Empire did not immediately fracture, but it did experience the full measure of the machinations of what the leadership had devolved into, with multiple factions vying for power, and Donatra even leading a schismatic state for a while before reconciling with the Star Empire. This is entirely consistent with the predominant portrayal of Romulans in TNG (and to a lesser extent, the later series). It is the logical outgrowth of a story which features a culture whose political class advances through Machiavellian deceit, scheming, and backstabbing.
Why would the Empire Fracture as a result of Romulus/Remus being destroyed by the Hobus Event?
If it was that chaotic/fragile in terms of Stability your telling me the Klingon Empire its blood enemy would not just have done a strike to produce the same effect?
You do realise we have real world powers based on any version of Government that include even more real world issues such as racial tensions that are still intact despite having political infighting and a powerful police state?
Leaving the real world -you have a race that lives for centuries -has prevailed for over 2000 years and openly fought the Federation it survived that, it has an open/secretive conflict with the largest/warlike species in the Qradrant? Its has built spacefaring vessels en masse that are a match or superior to its enemies flagship/capital ships-it perfected Cloaking. It survived the gutting of the Tal Shiar if that is believed to be the glue that binds TNG Romulans together I disagree with that-It was prepared to go to war even after its Praetor/Senate was wiped out- Commander Suran
"How many Warbirds will you need?"
Your telling me that because of the Machiavellian deceit, scheming, and backstabbing The 2000+ year Empire falls apart in 23 years? Its Logical?
Sorry to say the realities of poor writing cannot be propped up-
I respect your intelligent/detailed answers that are mature-hoping you do the courtesy of replying.
Perhaps one of the reasons that these named and unnamed examples from TNG that we can point to are there because Romulan Society HAS NOT CHANGED THAT MUCH.
Uhh. Kodachi. I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I've been saying. Romulan society as a whole did not change that much; the government on the other hand did.
Its completely possible your favorite Romulan heroine was lying through her teeth about 'amnesty' and had every intention of capturing the Enterprise and her crew to catapult her career into an Admiral's uniform, possibly even the start of a Senatorial run. Considering the parallels between Rome and the Star Empire, its quite possible that military power equated to political power and vice versa, just like Rome. Capturing a famous Federation starship, her (in)famous Captain and crew would have been a coup for a Klingon too. Imagine the glory and prestige if a USA Captain had captured the German Bismark and its crew and sailed it back to Norfolk. We don't know, that side of the story was and will never be told.
A lot of assumptions there, but the one I will point out is the assumption that a more complete story "will never be told." For better or for worse, CBS and Paramount can still approve a screenplay and make a new series or movie to tell a more detailed version of TEI.
But the very fact that she took the direction of trying to capture it intact as a prize tells us things. Compare that with actions in TNG and later, and we can see several possible motives easily. Sure she took a liking to Spock, that was icing on her cake if she could get him too, but not her initial objective nor her main focus.
And speaking of assumptions, why would the Romulans not know that the First Officer of the Federation's flagship was a half-Vulcan, half-Human male? Yes, she acts surprised on first meeting them face to face, and even says (what did you say about "lying through her teeth"?) that they were unaware of him, yet she was monitoring the communications between Subcommander Tal and the Enterprise and so certainly knew before they were beamed aboard. But why would she not have already known -- especially if, as some of the RSE/Tal'Shiar supporters have tried to claim, the Tal'Shiar was already around before they were founded in 2344? Surely a sneaky, conniving, espionage/spycraft-gifted people such as some of the Tal'Shiar/RSE supporters like to portray Romulans (fwiw, I don't disagree with the idea that some Romulans are rather skilled in espionage and spycraft; it's established in hard canon) would have extensive dossiers on all sorts of military and political personnel in Starfleet and the UFP. How long do you think Selak was posing as T'Pel? ENT establishes that Romulans were already rather well-established in deep cover positions on Vulcan. Perhaps a more appropriate question is not "why would the Romulans not know that the First Officer of the Federation's flagship was a half-Vulcan, half-Human male," but "how could the Romulans have possibly missed that fact" -- so even your statement that t'Charvon's initial objective and main focus were not to get Spock is itself an assumption. Indeed, I have contended exactly the opposite, that as soon as the Federation vessel which had violated the Neutral Zone was identified, they knew exactly who was on the bridge crew, and acted accordingly, by sending a female commander whose primary objective had to do with Spock. A hundred years later (exactly, if not to the exact day; * see note below), Spock revived the Unificationist movement on Romulus. I'd say her mission was a success, if neither exactly, nor as immediate, as was hoped/intended.
* Note:
Determining traditional Julian/Gregorian dates from TNG stardates is fairly straightforward. The beginning of TNG episode "Unification I" is "Stardate 45233.1" = March 26, 2368, Time: 07:33:01, and this is supported by Memory Alpha, which gives "2368" for this episode. TOS Stardates, on the other hand, are another matter. The beginning of TEI is "Stardate 5027.3" = Fri Mar 22 2267 19:33:06 GMT, but is given as "2268" at Memory Alpha.
The source for these conversions concludes that "either the time ratio of The Original Series Stardates changed mid-way through the original five-year mission and continued through the movies, or else the motion pictures use another Stardate system with a completely new starting point and different time ratio from The Original Series Stardates." If the former is correct, then the stardate given in a third season TOS episode like TEI may not be converted accurately. Apparently, 2268 is as close to "official" as we can get for TEI, but it is rather interesting that the converter gives 22 March for the start of the episode, while "Unification I" starts on 26 March, a short time after Spock went "missing." If the year be the only mistake in the conversion, then TEI began on 22 March 2268, and "Unification I" began on 26 March 2368, some time after Spock disappeared and long enough after his disappearance that his current whereabouts had been determined.
From the exchange which took place in the turbolift at the end of TEI, we can take the premise that t'Charvon won Spock's heart for herself, but not for the Star Empire.
Now, 100 is not a multiple of 7, but the state of Pon Farr is not necessary for Vulcan mating to occur. Seeing Spock come out of the sleeping chamber into the sitting room of t'Charvon's quarters, after he suggested that an hour's delay would be acceptable, ought to do more than suggest that the two of them were in flagrante delicto during the events of the episode, in spite of "Amok Time" having occurred only a year or so prior to TEI (Stardate 3372.7 = 2267, according to Memory Alpha). Really, the unseen sexual encounter between t'Charvon and Spock in TEI was a rather obvious occurrence, even though the act itself was unseen (and of course, we're talking about American prime time television in 1968 here, so that was probably as obvious as it could have been). But let's return to the idea of 100.
Ten is given in soft canon as somewhat important in Romulan temporal reckoning, with their "week" being a "tenday." Since the Vulcans departed -- to some extent -- from the old ways, while the Romulans, for the most part (Tellus' newly invented religion notwithstanding, it being only one of the perspectives of those on The Journey), held fast to the old ways, and temporal reckoning being a somewhat traditional matter in any culture, it is safe to assume that the Vulcan "week" would likewise be a "tenday." It is not therefore beyond the realm of possibility (indeed, it is more than merely possible) that "century" (ten tens of years) would hold some traditional significance for both Vulcans and Romulans, and Spock himself was not only half-Human, but by 2368 had spent more than enough time among Humans to be familiar with their traditions as well; the idea of "century" is still current in the Trek era, as we hear the term used many times in hard canon.
So I would say that "Unification I" was a not-very-subtle (if you pay attention and know enough about the backstory) nod to TEI. And I would say (and indeed have said) that t'Charvon was far more interested in Spock than she was in the Enterprise, and that this was intended from before her wing of vessels confronted the NCC 1701. And although the mission seemed to be a failure in both regards at the time (2268), "Unification I" (and II) strongly suggests that fruit was in fact produced, whether or not that fruit were the outcome intended by Romulan Star Command.
I respect your intelligent/detailed answers that are mature-hoping you do the courtesy of replying.
You will have your reply, although not just yet. I was awakened by my cats going crazy and decided to eat a bite before going back to bed, and then thought I would come look at the fora for a moment, only to wind up spending 2 hours here already reading and finally finding that Kodachi had replied to me and warranted a response, and now, although I'm fairly well awake, I intend to go into STO and do the FE for this week's reward, after which, I will (likely) return to bed.
I respect your intelligent/detailed answers that are mature-hoping you do the courtesy of replying.
You will have your reply, although not just yet. I was awakened by my cats going crazy and decided to eat a bite before going back to bed, and then thought I would come look at the fora for a moment, only to wind up spending 2 hours here already reading and finally finding that Kodachi had replied to me and warranted a response, and now, although I'm fairly well awake, I intend to go into STO and do the FE for this week's reward, after which, I will (likely) return to bed.
As a lover/owner of a cat I can respect that since I'm typing at Australian times I mean decent hours I fully understand different timezones.
Fans of any sort of entertainment have loyalties and rivalries. I can't see how you would be confused by this, seeing as both Bosnia and Germany (and many other nations) have experienced riots over something as mundane as football (soccer). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_hooliganism
The thing is I view Star Trek as a overall piece of work. I 'care' and can dig deeply into almost anything from it be it Federation content, Klingon, Romulan, Borg or whatever. My confusion originated from what I thought was your disregard of opinions/interpretations from people about a "Romulan" matter who did not identify themselves as "Romulan" in these forums. This is something, even if it doesn't apply to you int his case, I observe frequently on these forums, especially with the Klingon players (I am admittedly more involved int he Klingon gameplay part than I'm in the Romulan) which I can only call a form of "forum-RP". I think this is a behaviour that is hindering healthy discussions about a topic most users here should be united about, though.
The D'deridex is in-game. (...)
You are right of course, but I think I failed to bring my point across. Due to much more screentime and STO clearly being a TNG (post-TNG) game, the overall TNG aesthetics of Romulans is what most players would expect, I guess. It was my expectation as well. Canon ships, uniform and weapons are of course in the game but if you are with the Romulan faction in this game, visit the social zones etc. nothing looks like the Romulans one could expect. When you call for fleet support you get a non canon ship using non canon weapons and those Romulans that still resemble the TNG canon attire, weapons and ships are enemies. I can understand people being disgruntled about that, even more than about Starfleet's depiction or the "red" side of the game, both of which also are poorly represented.
To circumvent this, my Romulan char is a Garidian from "A final Unity" - I thought this game made an excellent approach to portray quasi-Romulans that do not fall into the established view of Romulans, though. They would have been a better alternative for Cryptic if legal issues would have allowed it, in my personal opinion. About a transcript of Garidian information you once asked me about, I have to double check but I think the game's dialogue can be extracted from the game files, although I would strongly advise you check it out. It is a very memorable and great Star Trek game, although you play the TNG crew in it - but you shouldn't let that fact keep you from playing a great point and click adventure game.
Additionally, limiting the Imperial Star Navy to a single class of ship would be extremely impractical. No military would be so short-sighted as to put all their eggs in one basket; different tasks call for different tools. Add to that the fact that STO is not set in the era of any series or movie; gameplay starts in 2409, whereas the final episode of VOY was set in 2378, and the most recent movie (apart from the ... um ... "reboot" movies), Nemesis, was set in 2379. That's 30 years. I cannot see why the idea that additional developments would take place over that 3 decades would be a stumbling-block.
From a "realistic" point of view this may be accurate, but I liked it never the less. Romulans were always shown to prefer to strike from the shadows, launching devestating surprise attacks. The D'Deridex especially had a on-screen reputation of being deadly and possibly outgunning even a Galaxy class starship, yet in "traditional" line battles those ships fared rather poorly which to me makes perfect sense as their purpose is intimidation, devestating forward firepower from cloak and enough space to have plenty of troops on board to quickly take over enemy target - they literally strike from the shadows, occupy and leave without a trace. It seems lengthy open combat would something a Romulan fleet would rather avoid if possible. I liked that characterization very much. The Mogai struck me as a reaction on the results of the Dominion conflict and being more feasible for prolonged combat. Lighter ships may of course exist but I personally think it greatly diminishes the Romulan "signature" of warfare.
Finally, when it comes to RP, although the official storyline is what it is, there's no rule which forbids the player from RPing in any era of Trek, (...)
Of course, true, but RP is not recognized by the game itself and especially if you play TOS era the immersion is shattered once you leave your own privte bridge instance
In another matter, I saw that your recent postings about Romulan differences come with added remarks to your fleet's lore and your interpretation. I don't assume they are there because I mentioned it but that was the whole reason I engaged in the debate in the first place Thank you for adding them, in any case.
While I largely agree with kodachikuno's interpretation of TEI (in essence the amnesty remark which you prominently referencing is the equivalent of someone pointing a gun at your head saying "surrender and nobody's hurt") it is now a mere matter of differing personal interpretation of what we saw and not a discussion about what is canon and what isn't anymore. And that's a very interesting topic indeed inw hich I hope neither side sees any reason to raise their blood pressure over resting (or typing) levels
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The idea that after the homeworld was destroyed that the Empire would immediately fracture into this weak and pitiful excuse of a faction is absurd... Tragedy always brings unity - and this would mean the D'Tan and his loyalists were not looking out for the Romulan people in general, they were looking for an opportunity to assert their own ideological goals...
The hearthworld was destroyed in 2387. The Star Empire did not immediately fracture, but it did experience the full measure of the machinations of what the leadership had devolved into, with multiple factions vying for power, and Donatra even leading a schismatic state for a while before reconciling with the Star Empire. This is entirely consistent with the predominant portrayal of Romulans in TNG (and to a lesser extent, the later series). It is the logical outgrowth of a story which features a culture whose political class advances through Machiavellian deceit, scheming, and backstabbing.
Why would the Empire Fracture as a result of Romulus/Remus being destroyed by the Hobus Event?
If it was that chaotic/fragile in terms of Stability your telling me the Klingon Empire its blood enemy would not just have done a strike to produce the same effect?
You do realise we have real world powers based on any version of Government that include even more real world issues such as racial tensions that are still intact despite having political infighting and a powerful police state?
Leaving the real world -you have a race that lives for centuries -has prevailed for over 2000 years and openly fought the Federation it survived that, it has an open/secretive conflict with the largest/warlike species in the Qradrant? Its has built spacefaring vessels en masse that are a match or superior to its enemies flagship/capital ships-it perfected Cloaking. It survived the gutting of the Tal Shiar if that is believed to be the glue that binds TNG Romulans together I disagree with that-It was prepared to go to war even after its Praetor/Senate was wiped out- Commander Suran
"How many Warbirds will you need?"
Your telling me that because of the Machiavellian deceit, scheming, and backstabbing The 2000+ year Empire falls apart in 23 years? Its Logical?
Sorry to say the realities of poor writing cannot be propped up-
I respect your intelligent/detailed answers that are mature-hoping you do the courtesy of replying.
Empires generally have regional governors and regional governments, yes, but they are also highly centralized; it is one of the shortcomings of the imperial model of government that it is more or less federal in the sense of strong central government (I say "more or less," because the level of centralization varies between empires). In the case of the Shiar ih'Saeihr Rihan (Romulan Star Empire), the Praetor (and/or Emperor/Empress, when that office was in use) was concentrated power.
Praetor was a title given to a political and military administrator. The term holds historic usage on Earth, during the period of the Roman Empire, as well as usage within the Romulan Empire.
The leader of the Romulan Star Empire was referred to as Praetor. (TOS: "Balance of Terror")
The Praetor presided over the Romulan Senate and the Continuing Committee. (Star Trek Nemesis)
The Praetor's source of power has always been the Romulan fleet.
Like so much concerning the Romulans, "Praetor" is a term taken from the Roman Empire. There, a praetor was a magistrate and minister of justice, who presided over courts of law. The position was subordinate only to consuls in hierarchy of the Roman Republican Government, and was a prerequisite for eligibility to standing for election to the Consulate. The term also referred to an army commander. A praetor in Rome was automatically a member of the Senate.
From the position of hard canon, then, we can say that the Praetor of the RSE held executive (Continuing Committee) and legislative (Senate) power, as well as command of the military, which was itself the source of his/her authority. From real-world history, we can surmise that the Praetor of the RSE likely also held judicial authority.
From soft canon, we have this:
The novel Probe mentions that the Romulan praetor is "third in rank but first in power", technically subordinate to the Emperor and the Emperor's Legate, but in fact is the real ruler of the Empire.
So what we have here is a situation in which one person (although at various times, the office of Praetor was invested in more than one person at a time) held supreme governmental and military power. Checks and balances such as exist in contemporary real-world republics appear to have been lacking. The death of the Praetor and all Senators would only be a setback, as the Continuing Committee (the executive), the judiciary, and the military survived, and new Senators could be elected or appointed.
Likely also is the view that the Senators were representatives of various regions on Romulus and of the various colony worlds. Except for those from colonies, the Senators would have lived on Romulus, while those from the colonies would usually be on Romulus during legislative sessions (and we know from "Path to 2409" that the Senate was in session in 2387, which information was taken from the comic book series Star Trek: Countdown, a tie-in to the 2009 Star Trek film). Romulan Star Command (the body which governed the Imperial Star Navy) would have almost certainly been in the Eisn system, if not on Romulus itself. The Continuing Committee would also have been based on Romulus, and so would the headquarters of the Tal'Shiar and whatever functioned as the Imperial Supreme Court.
With the destruction of the Eisn system in 2387, then, the Praetor, the Senate, the Continuing Committee, the Supreme Court, Romulan Star Command, and Tal'Shiar HQ would all have been wiped out. The entire central government of the RSE was thus GONE, unless some few Senator(s) happened to not be in attendance for the session in which Spock petitioned them to evacuate. While the idea that some devolved powers existed for the various colonies is not entirely out of the bounds of possibility, the central government would nevertheless have held the balance of power, and with that entire system destroyed, a power vacuum would obviously result. Some colonies would seize the opportunity to cast off the yoke of the oppressive imperial government now that it no longer existed, but the Imperial Star Navy remained, and that is exactly how the power vacuum was eventually filled.
But let's go back and get some background leading up to the Hobus supernova, which will reveal some of the sources of the unrest and chaos which followed. I'm going to quote, as the reference is no longer readily available as it once was, and I am not sure that everyone here has access. This will require at least one additional post, and possibly two, due to the character limit of the new fora. *shakes fist at Twitter for encouraging short attention spans*
Following the death of Praetor Shinzon at the Battle of Bassen Rift, the Romulan government fell into disarray. Tal'aura, one of the few remaining members of the Romulan Senate and a former ally of Shinzon, declares herself the new Praetor, supported by Fleet Commander Tomalak as the new leader of the Imperial Defense Force. However, Tal'aura's leadership is opposed by Commander Donatra, who with the support of Commander Suran and former Admiral Braeg retains control of the majority of the Fifth and Third fleets. Any hope of a reconciliation between the two sides ends after the execution of Braeg, and Donatra vows never to accept Tal'aura's rule. Donatra's rebellion is not Tal'aura's only concern. The Remans, led by General Xiomek of the Reman Kepeszuk Battalion, demand control of either a continent on Romulus or a planet with sufficient natural resources to maintain self-sufficient settlements as reparations for hundreds of years of slavery and exploitation. In response, Tal'aura cuts shipments of food and needed supplies to Remus and commands Tomalak to blockade the planet.
2381:
Starfleet is monitoring the deteriorating state of the Romulan Star Empire, which appears to be moving toward open civil war. Federation ambassadors are consulting with representatives of the Klingon Empire and other Alpha and Beta quadrant powers about a proposed course of action to either bring peace to the Romulans or control any conflict that spills out of Romulan space. The imperial forces led by Tomalak have skirmished repeatedly with Reman ships in the space between their two worlds. The Romulan blockade of Remus is holding for now, leading to concerns that the Remans are suffering from shortages of food and
supplies. The United Federation of Planets has offered humanitarian aid to both Romulus and Remus. While Ambassador Spock has returned to Federation space, the unification movement he founded continues to grow on Romulus. Xiomek of the Reman Kepeszuk Battalion has allied with the Unification movement, seeing the underground organization as another population that has been exploited by the Romulan government, although the two sides disagree on how best to reach their goals. Xiomek is promoting a military solution to force the Romulans to accede to the Remans’ demands, while the Unification movement is calling for a nonviolent, diplomatic alternative. On stardate 59480.33, Spock presents a formal request for aid for the Unification movement to the Federation Council, which agrees to take the matter under consideration. With the blockade of Remus and upheaval at home, Praetor Tal’aura has insufficient forces to stop Commander Donatra, who rallies the breakaway military forces under her command to conquer several agricultural worlds in Romulan space. With these planets under her control, Donatra declares herself the first empress of the Imperial Romulan State and establishes a capitol on Achenar Prime. Tal’aura vows to retake the territory by any means necessary.
2382:
The unstable situation of the Romulans continues to be a source of concern for the Alpha and Beta quadrants. The loss of agricultural planets now claimed by the Imperial Romulan State threatens Romulus with severe food shortages. Romulus’ power plants and factories cannot increase output without the heavy metals and dilithium that once flowed from Remus. To avert the looming civil crisis, Praetor Tal’aura reluctantly accepts food shipments from the Federation. But she refuses the Federation’s offer to facilitate negotiations between her and Empress Donatra, saying that it is an internal Romulan matter. Tal’aura charges her proconsul, Fleet Commander Tomalak, with retaking the planets held by Donatra. Tomalak appoints Admiral Taris as his second in command and orders her to re-organize and mobilize Romulus’ remaining military forces. Seeking to stabilize the homeworld, Tal’aura agrees to reform the Romulan Senate. A reorganization commission selected by Tal’aura votes to allow her to appoint senators directly rather than holding elections, and she packs the Senate with her supporters. Leaders of the Romulan-Vulcan Unification movement petition Tal’aura for representation in the Senate for themselves and the Remans, but Tal’aura declines to respond to their request. The makeup of the Romulan Senate angers Romulan nobles, who dominated the Senate prior to Shinzon’s takeover but now hold only a handful of seats. Representatives of several of the noble lines argue that for centuries the Romulan Senate has been a partner with the praetor in governing the empire, something that a weakened body beholden to Tal’aura cannot be. The Line of Tellus goes so far as to denounce Tal’aura publically and withdraw its members from government service.
2383:
Starfleet Intelligence continues to gather reports of unrest on Romulus. Praetor Tal’aura enacts food rationing and strict limits on replicator use on the homeworld, saying that the empire’s resources must be reserved to support the military’s campaign against Donatra and the breakaway Imperial Romulan State. The shortages spark rioting in the capitol of Ki Baratan, and the struggle goes on for two days before the praetor orders troops to intervene. Observers on Romulus suggest that as many as 2,000 people could have died either in the initial riots or at the hands of Romulan troops. The civil unrest and resistance from Romulan nobles strain Tal’aura’s command of the empire. She calls upon her allies in the Senate to help in stabilizing the government, and they respond by voting to expand the praetor’s powers, giving Tal’aura the power to grant or remove noble titles, which previously was a privilege that only the emperor enjoyed. She also is granted the ability to declare war without Senate approval. Ambassador Spock returns to Romulus to take his place with the Unificationists. Leaders of the movement say that although they could not win the support of the Federation, they will continue to “wage peace” on Romulus. On Stardate 60900.31, Fleet Commander Tomalak attacks Donatra’s fleet at Xanitla. Tomalak’s forces are soundly defeated in the battle, and he is dealt a further blow when Admiral Taris and the twelve ships under her command defect to the Imperial side.
2384:
Federation analysts say that a shakeup in the Romulan power structure has left the empire vulnerable to attack from within and without. Starfleet is dispatching additional ships to the border of the Neutral Zone and considers the Romulan situation one of the main threats to Federation safety and security. After Tomalak’s defeat by Donatra and her fleet, Praetor Tal’aura removes him as proconsul, choosing Sela as her right hand and fleet commander. Sela, a human-Romulan hybrid with extensive experience in the military and intelligence fields, has been a part of several major Romulan operations, including a failed attempt to invade Vulcan and coordinating support for the House of Duras’ attempt to take over the Klingon High Council in 2367. As a gift to Tomalak for his decades of loyal service to the Romulan Star Empire, Tal’aura allows him to “retire” to his rural estates on Romulus. The Romulan defeat at Xantila has made open war with Empress Donatra unfeasible. Praetor Tal’aura reluctantly agrees to negotiate with the Imperial Romulan State to determine the new borders and the establishment of a neutral zone, but rejects the Federation’s offer to mediate the talks. Donatra says she would welcome the Federation’s input, but that she will defer to Tal’aura’s decision in this matter, and sends Admiral Taris to the Romulan capitol as her representative. On Stardate 61602.00, Tal’aura is found dead in her private chambers. Tal Shiar investigators report that the praetor appears to have been attacked in her sleep. The Romulan capitol erupts in a firestorm of rumors and accusations. Groups accused of responsibility for the assassination include a coalition of the noble houses, the Tal Shiar or agents working for Empress Donatra and the Imperial Romulan State. Donatra denies having anything to do with the murder. “I face my enemies on the field of battle with honor,” the empress announces in an address to her citizens, “not with a knife in the dark.” She recalls Taris from Romulus and orders her to prepare to defend Imperial holdings. At Tal’aura’s funeral in Ki Baratan, Sela publically blames the Remans and the Unification movement for the attack. “They claim to desire peace,” Sela says, “but ally with the murderers and usurpers who terrorized our planet and led us to the brink of destruction. The blood of one praetor was not enough for the Remans. Tal’aura was the victim of their thirst for destruction.”
2385:
In Romulan space, what began as a tumultuous year after the assassination of Praetor Tal’aura has settled down into what could be a long-term solution, and both Starfleet and the Klingon Empire have pulled back some ships from the borders of Romulan space. In the weeks following Tal’aura’s death, her proconsul, Sela, stepped in to take the reins of control in the government. Granted temporary executive powers by the Senate as an emergency measure, Sela uses them to replace more than two dozen of Tal’aura’s “populist” senators with representatives of noble houses who had opposed Tal’aura’s rule. Among Sela's appointees is the influential noble Chulan of the Line of Tellus.
The backing of the nobles gives Sela the clout she needs to run the government, but she does not have the support of the military or the Tal Shiar and her regime is generally expected to be short-lived. Rehaek, the leader of the Tal Shiar, makes a rare public appearance to announce that he will personally lead the investigation into the assassination of Praetor Tal’aura. “There are certain things which may seem expedient but which honor abhors. We cannot allow this crime to go unanswered.” And Empress Donatra of the Imperial Romulan State wins hearts among the people of Romulus by offering food shipments to non-military settlements. Federation experts fear a three-way struggle for control of Romulus, but instead Donatra meets with Sela and Rehaek on Romulus to find a peaceful solution. The three begrudgingly agree to put their personal disputes aside for the good of the Empire, and the worlds of the Imperial Romulan State are folded back into the Romulan Star Empire. Donatra holds onto the reins of power of the military, and keeps much of her forces safely off-world in case the peace does not hold. With the threat of civil war averted, the Senate opens debate on who to elect the new praetor. Sela, as Tal’aura’s proconsul, is one of the leading candidates, and she makes a play for the position. But rumors of her possible involvement in the plot to assassinate Tal'aura dog her campaign, and when Donatra declines Sela’s request for an endorsement Sela’s defeat is almost assured. After an extensive debate, Senator Chulan is chosen to be the new praetor. He is a compromise candidate who is acceptable to, but not strongly supported by, any of the major powers. Federation analysts predict that without the backing of a coalition of factions, Chulan will be a weak leader. Donatra, who most agree was the broker of this newfound peace, travels to Remus to meet General Xiomek of the Remans. She offers the Remans full citizenship in the empire and representation in the Romulan Senate in exchange for their support. While Sela opposes the plan, which she sees as rewarding the Remans for a violent uprising, Praetor Chulan will not go against Donatra’s military might. The physical strength of the Remans, as well as their supplies of dilithium and heavy metals, adds to Donatra’s formidable military strength, and she re-opens shipyards and munitions plants closed since Shinzon’s revolt. And as resources flow back to Romulus from Remus and the worlds Donatra controlled, energy rationing and food lines become a thing of the past. The Romulan Senate is reluctant to deal with the Remans but is swayed by popular support for Donatra, and it reluctantly allows Xiomek to take a seat in the Senate and extends citizenship to the Remans. In common practice, however, most Romulans continue to treat Remans as second-class citizens, and the Remans have been reluctant to openly move to Romulan settlements.
2386:
The new openness on Romulus has made it much easier for the Federation to get news about what is happening on that world, but not all of it is favorable for the long-term stability of the region. Ambassador Spock reports that the Romulan Mining Guild has finished a multi-year study of Remus and has presented its findings to the Romulan Senate. The guild reports that the planet has been seriously overmined, and recommends that to avoid a Praxis situation that the Reman operations should be shut down and mining operations should be moved to more distant areas of space. The guild spreads their operations across the Empire, settling hundreds of miners and their families on space stations and colonies light years away from Romulus. The guild further recommends that it be put in charge of all off-world mining, but Colonel Xiomek uses his new position in the Senate to block that request. The conflict between the guild and the Remans sparks a number of skirmishes between guild ships and Remans in distant areas of the Empire.
Xiomek speaks to the Senate after the mining guild presents its report and argues that if the Remans are to be moved off of Remus, that they should be given a continent on Romulus for their new home, a request that is overwhelmingly rejected by the full Senate. With the backing of Donatra, Rehaek and Praetor Chulan, an alternative plan is reached. The Remans are instead offered the planet of Crateris, in the distant Gamma Crateris system. The site of a failed Romulan colony, the planet has a harsh climate and is beset by almost constant electrical storms but is rich in dilithium, decalithium and heavy metals. Xiomek agrees, because even the harsh climate of Crateris is a significant improvement over Remus. Thousands of Remans board colony ships and make the move to their new home. On Stardate 63322.55, Rehaek sends a statement to the praetor and the leaders of the Romulan Senate with the conclusions of his investigation into the assassination of Praetor Tal’aura. Rehaek rules that that Tal’aura was killed by agents loyal to a coalition of noble houses angered by her reformation of the Senate. Both Donatra and Sela request to see the evidence that backs up his claims, but Rehaek refuses to divulge his complete findings. In retaliation for the death of Tal’aura, the Tal Shiar begins a campaign of assaults on the noble houses, arresting dozens of nobles and seizing their assets. Sela pushes back against the persecution of some of her major supporters, and sways the Senate to drastically cut funding to the Tal Shiar. In a speech before the Senate, Sela accuses elements inside the Tal Shiar of knowing about the plot to assassinate Tal’aura but doing nothing to stop it. “Does standing silent make them as culpable as the killers?” Sela asks. “In abandoning their sworn duty to protect the praetor, as a symbol of Romulus itself, they are no better than those who wielded the knives that killed her.” Donatra refuses to take sides in the conflict between Sela and Rehaek, instead encouraging the praetor to handle the situation. Praetor Chulan appoints a Senate committee to formally investigate the matter, but the committee takes little action. On Stardate 63446.41, an explosion destroys Rehaek’s home on the outskirts of Ki Baratan. Observers report several visitors to the estate in the hours before the blast, any of whom could have planted the explosives. The remains of Rehaek’s wife and young daughter and several servants are found in the wreckage, but Rehaek is missing. Investigators theorize that the blast was intense enough to have vaporized anyone close to the point of detonation. Two hours after the explosion, Tal Shiar forces storm Sela’s townhouse in Ki Baratan and take her and her personal guard into custody for the murder of Rehaek. In a secret trial held days later, Sela is sentenced to death for the crime. At the last minute, Donatra intervenes. She argues that the evidence is not overwhelming, and pressures Chulan to allow Sela and her supporters to accept permanent exile instead of death. Taris maintains a low profile during the troubles, putting many of her responsibilities in the hands of General Tebok. Late in 2386, she informs Donatra that she is going to take her ship to Levaeri V to investigate claims that a blade believed to be the Sword of the Raptor Star has been recovered. The ancient sword, reputed to be one of the swords created by Vulcan swordsmith S’harien and taken into exile by S’task, is a revered artifact of the Sundering.
2387:
On Stardate 64317.6, Klingon long range sensors pick up a small Romulan fleet led by Sela. The fleet passes the Beta Stromgren supernova remnant and continues into unexplored space.
...
On Stardate 64333.4, a Romulan Mining Guild ship observes the start of a chain of events that will forever change the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. The star in the Hobus system, in the far reaches of Romulan space, begins to exhibit massive fluxuations of radiation. Days later, Ambassador Spock of the Federation appears before the Romulan Senate to warn them about the dangers of this star. Spock believes that if the Hobus star goes supernova, it could create a reaction that would threaten much of the Romulan Empire, and he asks the Senate to coordinate with Vulcan to find a solution. After a lengthy debate, the Senate rejects Spock's plan. After the close of the Senate's session, Donatra accepts an invitation from Colonel Xiomek to visit Crateris and inspect the construction of the new Reman colony. Their path allows them to perform a sensor sweep of the Hobus system. After arriving on Crateris, Donatra and Xiomek spend several hours in a private meeting, where it is believed that Xiomek gives Donatra information about possible rogue elements within the Romulan military and government. Donatra decides to return to
Romulus earlier than planned, and invites Xiomek to take passage on her ship, the IRW Valdore, so he can be in Ki Baratan for the next meeting of the Romulan Senate. On the way back to Romulus, Donatra contacts Admiral Taris, who is in the Levaeri system, and orders her to return to Romulus. The message is recorded by Romulan military communications relay stations, but Taris does not change course. A later review finds that there is no evidence of the message in the computer banks of Taris's ship, and that the communications officer who would have been on duty during that time cannot be found. Ambassador Spock returns to Vulcan, where he meets with Ambassador Jean-Luc Picard. The two appeal to the Vulcan Science Academy to assist the Romulans with the crisis in the Hobus system, but the academy declines their request without comment. The two former Starfleet officers decide that they will make their own plans to deal with the situation. On Stardate 64444.5, the IRW Valdore reports unusual stellar activity, including a disturbance equivalent to a force seven ion storm. Romulus loses contact with Donatra's ship, and dispatches four D'deridex class warbirds to search for the Valdore. The Romulan Senate finally authorizes an evacuation order, and ships are recalled to help ferry Romulus residents off-world. Military estimates are that it will take a minimum of six weeks to evacuate the homeworld. Twenty-seven hours later, the Hobus star goes supernova. The resulting chain reaction destroys Romulus and Remus. Billions of Romulans are killed. Starfleet immediately orders all available ships to cross the Neutral Zone and assist the Romulans with any possible relief and recovery efforts. Several of these ships are attacked by Nero, who is captaining the Narada, a heavily modified Romulan vessel. Additional cruisers are diverted to escort relief vessels to Romulan space. Intercepted Romulan transmissions indicate that Praetor Chulan and the leaders of the Senate escaped Romulus before the planet's destruction. But the USS Nobel, en route to Romulus, find the bodies of Chulan and the Senate's ruling council floating in space near their derelict shuttle. After Nero expands his attacks to Klingon ships, Chancellor Martok orders a fleet to enter Romulan space. He appoints his friend Worf as one of the mission's commanders, giving him the rank of General for the mission. Meanwhile, Geordi La Forge brings the Jellyfish to Vulcan and agrees to allow Spock to pilot it to the Hobus system. According to sensor reports recorded on Stardate 64471.6 by the USS Enterprise-E, the Hobus supernova was contained by a limited singularity, ending the threat to the quadrant. Starfleet believes that both the Jellyfish and the Narada were lost. "He sacrificed himself to save us all," Ambassador Picard says of his friend Spock. "May his soul live long and prosper."
Supplemental Log
Commander Suran, once captain of the warbird Soterus, now lives as a gentleman farmer on the planet Talvath. Talvath has recently petitioned for Federation protection, which is what brings me here to interview him. He is the highest ranking military officer on the planet, and has indeed become something of an elder statesman. His intimate knowledge of Romulan politics, and involvement within definitive political events dating back to the conflict with Praetor Shinzon, makes him an even more important source of information. He smiles at me, offering me a glass of water as we sit on the porch of his sprawling ranch. I know why you’re here. [he tilts his own glass at me] Oh, you may say it’s to gather information and determine whether your Federation will accept us. But you have all the same questions everyone else does. What questions would those be? You want to know about Donatra, of course, the missing Empress*. If only she hadn’t disappeared, how different everything would be! [he speaks in a higher pitch, clearly mimicking someone] Romulans would still be strong, still be a power to reckon with in the Universe! [he laughs] Well, I’m afraid I will disappoint you. They’re right, you see. If Donatra had lived, everything would be different. I can’t tell you if we would have been able to avoid all the catastrophes that befell us, but we would be a much stronger people. I’m afraid, as well, that I can’t tell you where she’s gone. If I could, believe me, I would have sought her out long since. There are rumors that the two of you had a falling out. Falling out? Pah! We disagreed a time or two. And that rumor she had me killed? Clearly exaggerated. She did threaten to kill me, but true friendship is a bond that survives death threats. [he laughs] She was a firebrand. No, a comet, flaring brilliantly in the night sky. Now, I know you have other questions for me. You want to know about those days after Shinzon died, and good riddance to him. And you likely have a question or two about our erstwhile Praetor Tal’aura. Everything that needs saying has been said when it comes to Shinzon and what he did to Romulus. [he stops speaking, staring off into the distance] Ah, forgive me. These are strange times. It is hard to realize that the glory of the empire is gone. It is even, at times, unthinkable. And yet. What of Praetor Tal’aura?
[He puts his glass down on the table, leans towards me conspiratorily] I shall tell you something – something I would never have dared to say were Donatra still here. Tal’aura did us all a favor when she killed General Braeg. You’re shocked. [he smiles] Of course you’re shocked. You have publically condemned her for General Braeg’s execution. Many times, indeed. And it was an atrocious thing, and I fully believe she deserved to die in turn for having done that. So, apparently, did someone else. Although that could have been in return for so completely mismanaging the empire. But I digress. General Braeg was a dear friend of mine. I mourned his death. I still mourn his death. He was also a charismatic leader. Did you hear how he fomented rebellion on Romulus, under Tal’aura’s very nose? It was brilliant. He had a gift. Not only was he clever enough to see her mistakes and understand how horribly she was mishandling the Empire, he had a rare instinct for showmanship. He made people understand! He got through to the mob. He showed them the downward spiral, and told them we needed to get out of it. He made them believe! But then he died. And it was the death of a hero. Tal’aura’s men had surrounded the crowd he was preaching to at Victory Square, and had actually brought a military hovercraft – which was illegal on Romulus - in an attempt to reach Braeg! He could have easily fled. He could have let innocent people die, and no one would have blamed him for it. Instead, he turned himself over to Tal’aura’s men, which stopped the attack and enabled his followers to escape. He sacrificed himself. At first, I thought he was an idiot. I thought, Well, he saved a few people that day but lost the Empire! What a shortsighted gesture! But perhaps he knew better than I what would happen after his death. And here I will tell you something you haven’t heard before: Braeg was Donatra’s lover. Had been for years. Very few knew this at the time. I had my suspicions before his death, but never spoke of it. After his death, Donatra told me. There were tears running down her cheeks as she told me that they had loved each other. That was the only time I saw her cry. She spoke of him many times again, in glorious speeches, calling all Romulans to battle! But she never cried. When he died, it lit a fire in her the likes of which I’ve never seen before. I always knew she had passion. Always knew she had the ability to lead. I didn’t realize she had the ability to touch men’s souls and make them blaze. She became Empress because Braeg died. I don’t think she would have done that had he lived, and I don’t think he’d have been as good a leader as she. All of his showmanship could not match the purity of her cause. The worst thing that ever happened to Romulus was losing Donatra. I know, it’s a shocking thing to say, with all that’s happened. Had she remained Empress, these last two decades and more would have been incredibly different. I will tell you this, as well. I do not believe she is dead. Where she is, I don’t know. But I do not believe that we have heard the last of Empress Donatra. *The ship Valdore, carrying Empress Donatra and all her crew, disappeared in 2387 during the Hobus supernova. The general assumption is that the ship and crew were destroyed, but there has been no conclusive evidence.
Finally, I will quote only the Romulan bit of the same work at 2388:
Fallout from the destruction of the Romulan system dominates interstellar events in 2388. The Romulan colony worlds reel from the loss of their homeworld and a vacuum in leadership. With the death of Praetor Chulan and the disappearance of Donatra, there is no one who has the authority to call the worlds to order or organize a new government. The leadership council of Rator III declares itself to be the new Romulan Senate and Rator III as the new capital of the Romulan Star Empire, but it is quickly challenged by the leaders of Achenar Prime and Abraxas V, who make similar claims. One person many look toward to pull the Romulan people back together is Admiral Taris. She concentrates on evaluating what military forces remain, and issues a call for all remaining ships, even deep exploration vessels, to return to Romulan space. Internal squabbling and politics hinder the Federation's relief efforts in Romulan space. The Federation Council dispatches a fleet of ships to provide food and aid to refugees and to help the displaced survivors of the disaster find new homes, but Starfleet finds it must negotiate with each of the colony worlds. What one world welcomes, another sees as false friendship, or even an act of war. The fight between the three "capital" worlds further complicates issues,
because any assistance given to one of them must be granted to all to avoid accusations of favoring one faction or attempting to interfere with the Romulans' internal affairs.
I hope this gives a more complete picture and facilitates understanding of how things could become so unstable. From 2389 on, it gets even more interesting, but this reply has already been long enough.
It appears that indeed the RSE was tearing itself up long before the Hobus Event - however it was returning to a more normal (and apparently even better than it had been...) before Hobus - however if all of these quotes are descriptive of what 'happened' as per canon - then the event of the RSE's death was a fact... This information actually makes more sense than I would have thought...
Picard and his gang of misfits (Commander Quagmire, his sometime-girlfriend Counselor State-the-Obvious, Pinocchio aspiring to be a real boy, a blind helmsman, and Microbrain, not to mention Doctor I'm-here-as-a-thinly-veiled-love-interest-for-the-captain-and-otherwise-have-no-real-purpose and her son Annoying Boy Geekwiz)
In light of all these events I always wondered what would happen to Romulan client states. This is where I tried to include the Garidian Republic in my charstory/headcanon. They would probably as well declare their independence and the way Garid was portrayed they were actually a legitimate minor power as opposed to a single province - but of course Garid doesn't exist outside of "A final unity" - still it is my preferred explanation about how D'Tan's movement got a hold of the ships and technology to rebuild a interstellar power from scratch.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Fans of any sort of entertainment have loyalties and rivalries. I can't see how you would be confused by this, seeing as both Bosnia and Germany (and many other nations) have experienced riots over something as mundane as football (soccer). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_hooliganism
The thing is I view Star Trek as a overall piece of work. I 'care' and can dig deeply into almost anything from it be it Federation content, Klingon, Romulan, Borg or whatever. My confusion originated from what I thought was your disregard of opinions/interpretations from people about a "Romulan" matter who did not identify themselves as "Romulan" in these forums. This is something, even if it doesn't apply to you int his case, I observe frequently on these forums, especially with the Klingon players (I am admittedly more involved int he Klingon gameplay part than I'm in the Romulan) which I can only call a form of "forum-RP". I think this is a behaviour that is hindering healthy discussions about a topic most users here should be united about, though.
I'm only going to reply to this part of your post.
"Romulan Discussion" (as this forum is now called, formerly named "Romulan Gameplay"), like "Federation Discussion" and "Klingon Discussion," have featured what you refer to as "forum RP" for quite a while. I doubt that is going to change any time soon, and I honestly don't see a need for it to change. It is a hindrance only when discerning between the RP and the RL of another poster is challenging to the reader, but I find it fairly easy to distinguish between the two. Obviously an RP character is not going to comment on game mechanics in that sense, so such comments are obviously OOC. When I say "We Romulans" or the like, though, it can be either IC or OOC, because I may mean it as "We who are Romulans" or "We who play Romulans in-game" (I usually try to say something like "RRF players" instead, but none of us are perfect, so I may not always remember to do this), and an overlap exists to some extent, in that the interests of RRF players will often coincide with the interests of their characters.
But as for disregarding opinions of those who have KDF or Fed avatars/signatures/user names, as I have said recently, those should serve to indicate where someone's loyalties lie. My first STO character was a Vulcan, made back when there was no LoR, back when you had to make a Fed character before you were allowed to make a KDF character. But this "Vulcan" was always intended as a Romulan spy in disguise. My second character was an Orion, whom I enjoyed playing as an Orion for a while, but eventually, I decided she was also a Romulan spy in disguise; she was my main for a while after I became ... averse to all the drama I had experienced in Fed fleets, and she remained my main until LoR. LoR had still not come out at the time. When LoR did come out, I made a KDF-allied Romulan. It wasn't long after that I finally got an LTS and made 3 more Romulans (this gave me a "Vulcan" Sci, an "Orion" Sci, a KDF-allied Romulan Sci, a KDF-allied Romulan Engi, a Fed-allied Romulan Sci, and a Fed-allied Romulan Engi). When Delta Recruitment event was running, I made 4 more characters: a KDF-allied Romulan Tac, a Fed Alien Tac (who is of primarily Romulan ancestry, with some Reman, Andorian, and Orion heritage), an Orion Engi (she's actually an Orion, not a Romulan spy, but her allegiance is to the New Romulan Republic, not the Klingon Empire nor the Orion Syndicate), and a Fed-allied Romulan Tac. Six of my ten characters are therefore obviously Romulan and Romulan by game mechanics, while two of the remaining four are covertly Romulan (although not by game mechanics), and the other two are an Orion and an Alien of mixed ethnicity. All of them are members of my fleets and therefore regard themselves as citizens of, and loyal to, the Republic. My forum user name is not Trek-related at all ("Proto-Goth" being a term applied to those of us who were more or less "Gothic" before that subculture developed into a distinct subculture and became known as "Gothic"). My avatar is of my main, the KDF-allied Romulan Sci. My signature is, apart from the bit in magenta at the end, entirely and obviously Romulan. I make my loyalties known in the fora. Others do likewise, although some whose primary (or only) loyalties are to the KDF or the Federation seem to believe that they have some right to interfere in what are native concerns of RRF players. There is a way to voice an opinion without disrespect, and there is a way to simply express an opinion without attempting something less honest. What I mean by the latter is that there are certain players who like to come in to our forum and stir up nonsense, in part to keep our already passionate people in a state of heightened passions because they like to annoy, and in part because they are following Machiavelli's advice (which I quoted in this thread recently) to encourage division within those whom they see as enemies or rivals (essentially "Divide et impera"). As such, I find it advisable to be cautious in considering the posts of those who do not, so to speak, wear my team jersey (Dallas Cowboys!).
Thats all fantastic reading and I had read some of it before path to 2409 -Does it take into account the Novels? I mean novels set after Nemesis? Just curious -yes there is chaos and clearly evident. Now that is of course STOs take on events and therefore Canon for in game (and I realize in broader trek as there is nothing filmed otherwise) so it is the way things are for the current situation in game.
I now am speaking purely subjectively that I find "countdown" one of the worst written and frankly offensive pieces of anything related to Trek I have ever come across -I will never agree that there were no fleet vessels in orbit or already had not LEFT with the Romulan Praetor and heads of Government already? All that is available is a senate shuttle!-That no contingency was in place likewise for the High Command/Tal Shiar -One D'Deridex Warbird alone had accommodation for 1500 Troops.
Even if I stay a dry wretch and switch off minimal intelligence will I than believe that the Praetor and his Government beam onto a civilian mining vessel with no security provision/process/procedure or prior security operatives ensuring that vessel and crew were secure. Time pressed or not.
Than continuing on we have a situation in which a miner locates and gains access to a secret military facility than upgrades his mining vessel with Romulan/Borg tech to the goddawful hellraiser ship Narada (I will not go step by step dissecting on this part-it is at this point its so stupid and I cannot suspend my disbelief any further.)
If this is canon and accepted -than how is Worf's death reconciled as it occurs in Countdown?
This is where I have issue following on-simply put the Government should have survived the Hobus event -which of course would alter all that follows.
Thank you for providing all that information. I respect that you are taking the time to clearly highlight how the state of the RSE in game. To myself it is built on a flawed premise-and to Cryptics credit they have done well to get it into any kind of sense.
In a way I do see the idea that the highest echelon of Romulan government would have been caught on the late end of a Homeworld evacuation... Perhaps a few would have stayed behind to help the people remain calm in the face of certain death - however the continuance of the Empire would have had to have been put forth in a way that did not utterly decimate the already fractured system... Obviously Sela made it - however she is the only one who DID - which would lead me to believe SHE was responsible for their deaths...
As far as judging people based on their signature or other such inane gibberish - My first character in STO was a Federation Human - while he is currently a Vice Admiral, my preference has been to delve into my Romulan Character - as I find it to be more appealing than the Starfleet yuts I started out with..
Being superficial simply because someone has not made a signature yet, is mundane...
Picard and his gang of misfits (Commander Quagmire, his sometime-girlfriend Counselor State-the-Obvious, Pinocchio aspiring to be a real boy, a blind helmsman, and Microbrain, not to mention Doctor I'm-here-as-a-thinly-veiled-love-interest-for-the-captain-and-otherwise-have-no-real-purpose and her son Annoying Boy Geekwiz)
For those interested and who do not have access, I have now extracted all of the Romulan info from "Path to 2409" and placed it in our fleet fora; it is readable by guests: Romulan Info from "Path to 2409"
In a way I do see the idea that the highest echelon of Romulan government would have been caught on the late end of a Homeworld evacuation... Perhaps a few would have stayed behind to help the people remain calm in the face of certain death - however the continuance of the Empire would have had to have been put forth in a way that did not utterly decimate the already fractured system... Obviously Sela made it - however she is the only one who DID - which would lead me to believe SHE was responsible for their deaths...
As far as judging people based on their signature or other such inane gibberish - My first character in STO was a Federation Human - while he is currently a Vice Admiral, my preference has been to delve into my Romulan Character - as I find it to be more appealing than the Starfleet yuts I started out with..
Being superficial simply because someone has not made a signature yet, is mundane...
Sela was in exile at the time, but she did have her allies still inside the territory of the RSE, so there is certainly a possibility that she had something to do with it.
As for the rest, if someone has no avatar/signature, that's not what I'm talking about. You are apparently (based on your post count) a newcomer to these fora; when you are more familiar with the way things happen in this forum (Romulan Discussion), I suspect you will understand my meaning. Due to PWE's rule against "naming and shaming," I cannot be much more specific, but I will say that there is a certain occasional participant in this forum who has Klingon imagery in his avatar and signature, and who seems to take a perverse delight in attempting to perpetuate or resurrect the ferocity and vitriol which was formerly more common here. There have also been those with Federation avatars/signatures, and who are obviously fond of Federation gameplay advantages, who have occasionally strolled into our forum in order to urinate all over our game suggestions/requests, because if our concerns were addressed, it might decrease some of the privileged status which Fed players enjoy.
Uhh. Kodachi. I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I've been saying. Romulan society as a whole did not change that much; the government on the other hand did.
And I'm saying I don't see it having changed as much as you want it to have.
A lot of assumptions there, but the one I will point out is the assumption that a more complete story "will never be told." For better or for worse, CBS and Paramount can still approve a screenplay and make a new series or movie to tell a more detailed version of TEI.
And speaking of assumptions, why would the Romulans not know that the First Officer of the Federation's flagship was a half-Vulcan, half-Human male?
Well for starters, at this point the Enterprise was a bit (in)famous, it was not the Flagship. At no point is it named a flagship except in TNG and JJTrek. Also, at no point did I say she was surprised or unaware of his existence... I said he wasn't the main objective, just icing on the cake.
Surely a sneaky, conniving, espionage/spycraft-gifted people such as some of the Tal'Shiar/RSE supporters like to portray Romulans would have extensive dossiers on all sorts of military and political personnel in Starfleet and the UFP.
Extensive files doesn't necessarily mean detailed, or accurate, we can go into real world examples. Also the "sneaky, conniving, espionage/spycraft-gifted people" gets a bit over-hyped. They were better at it than their peers, with the possible exception of the Obsidian Order(which imo stole Romulan development and gave it to spoonheads but thats an entirely different rant). But basically ANY governmental and military structure has "sneaky, conniving, espionage/spycraft-gifted people" and spends undue amounts of time being "sneaky, conniving, espionage/spycraft-gifted people," even governments that like to pretend they are the bastions of truth, freedom, and justice. We can pull a huge amount of IRL and Fictitious references here, even Trek ones.
Cant' address this, have watched maybe 20 episodes of that wretched abortion of a series. The only ones I actually liked were the Mirror Universe episodes.
Perhaps a more appropriate question is not "why would the Romulans not know that the First Officer of the Federation's flagship was a half-Vulcan, half-Human male," but "how could the Romulans have possibly missed that fact"
so even your statement that t'Charvon's initial objective and main focus were not to get Spock is itself an assumption. Indeed, I have contended exactly the opposite, that as soon as the Federation vessel which had violated the Neutral Zone was identified, they knew exactly who was on the bridge crew, and acted accordingly, by sending a female commander whose primary objective had to do with Spock. A hundred years later (exactly, if not to the exact day; * see note below), Spock revived the Unificationist movement on Romulus. I'd say her mission was a success, if neither exactly, nor as immediate, as was hoped/intended.
This is based on pure fangirl desires and isn't even really worth responding too except to state its ludicrous.
>>whole lotta garbage desperately trying to validate a fangirl 'aww' moment<<
no... this was... just way too much tripe... I can see it being possible that 100yrs was significant, and it would make nice RP. I also agree that t'Charvon was almost assuredly the reason Spock chose to go there later in life and try to improve relations with the Romulans, I think the reunification movement was not an initial objective so much as a spinoff result of his actions, and became his focus. But again, all of this is conjecture and based on head canon, desire, and circumstantial evidence... we don't and won't know the details. (barring of course some magical release by CBS)
Klingons causing trouble? Why doesn't that surprise me, as it is their nature is it not? - as far as Federation loyalists doing the same, it is not a surprise either... They gain power through the 'peaceful' subversion of those they have as rivals... In all the dealings that the Federation orchestrates - the biggest benefactor is the Federation... They meddle in that which they do not understand... Romulans being one of them -
Which is why I am not in a fleet in STO at the moment - it is either Klingon or Federation allies - haven't found one that is specifically for Romulans - and seeing as the game essentially uses Romulans as added firepower for either side - it does not surprise me. Is a shame..
Picard and his gang of misfits (Commander Quagmire, his sometime-girlfriend Counselor State-the-Obvious, Pinocchio aspiring to be a real boy, a blind helmsman, and Microbrain, not to mention Doctor I'm-here-as-a-thinly-veiled-love-interest-for-the-captain-and-otherwise-have-no-real-purpose and her son Annoying Boy Geekwiz)
Klingons causing trouble? Why doesn't that surprise me, as it is their nature is it not? - as far as Federation loyalists doing the same, it is not a surprise either... They gain power through the 'peaceful' subversion of those they have as rivals... In all the dealings that the Federation orchestrates - the biggest benefactor is the Federation... They meddle in that which they do not understand... Romulans being one of them -
Which is why I am not in a fleet in STO at the moment - it is either Klingon or Federation allies - haven't found one that is specifically for Romulans - and seeing as the game essentially uses Romulans as added firepower for either side - it does not surprise me. Is a shame..
Or you could find a fleet likemours, that focuses on Romulans at the expense of those other guys. You know...Not-Romulans.
Klingons causing trouble? Why doesn't that surprise me, as it is their nature is it not? - as far as Federation loyalists doing the same, it is not a surprise either... They gain power through the 'peaceful' subversion of those they have as rivals... In all the dealings that the Federation orchestrates - the biggest benefactor is the Federation... They meddle in that which they do not understand... Romulans being one of them -
Which is why I am not in a fleet in STO at the moment - it is either Klingon or Federation allies - haven't found one that is specifically for Romulans - and seeing as the game essentially uses Romulans as added firepower for either side - it does not surprise me. Is a shame..
Or you could find a fleet likemours, that focuses on Romulans at the expense of those other guys. You know...Not-Romulans.
Picard and his gang of misfits (Commander Quagmire, his sometime-girlfriend Counselor State-the-Obvious, Pinocchio aspiring to be a real boy, a blind helmsman, and Microbrain, not to mention Doctor I'm-here-as-a-thinly-veiled-love-interest-for-the-captain-and-otherwise-have-no-real-purpose and her son Annoying Boy Geekwiz)
Klingons causing trouble? Why doesn't that surprise me, as it is their nature is it not? - as far as Federation loyalists doing the same, it is not a surprise either... They gain power through the 'peaceful' subversion of those they have as rivals... In all the dealings that the Federation orchestrates - the biggest benefactor is the Federation... They meddle in that which they do not understand... Romulans being one of them -
Which is why I am not in a fleet in STO at the moment - it is either Klingon or Federation allies - haven't found one that is specifically for Romulans - and seeing as the game essentially uses Romulans as added firepower for either side - it does not surprise me. Is a shame..
Or you could find a fleet likemours, that focuses on Romulans at the expense of those other guys. You know...Not-Romulans.
Sounds perfect -
I'll send you a PM with instructions, since this isn't a recruiting thread.
Comments
Abusive ad Hominem.
I can't begin to think of a single Romulan from "the show" (forget the plural there?) more memorable than Keras and the Centurion, and Di'on t'Charvon and Tal.
Not everything is a rhetoric debate. It was honest concern, not an attempt to poke holes in your arguments. I can't understand making ones "layalties" a subject when we're talking about a tv show and sci-fi videogame. It confuses me, genuinely.
About the show (as in Star trek, containing different series) which Romulan strikes one as memorable is certainly subjective, but you can't play TOS Romulans either, that fact remains. I can fly a ship, buy a costume, but whenever I am with the NPCs of the faction they don't use "their" weapons, they don't wear "their" uniforms and they don't command "their" ships (granted, there are few canon ships to choose from but I personally liked that the D'D was pretty much the 'only' starship in the Romulan navy in TNG, at least operating outside of Romulan space. I thought it was actually a good thing, nice characterization - again, genuinely).
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The idea that after the homeworld was destroyed that the Empire would immediately fracture into this weak and pitiful excuse of a faction is absurd... Tragedy always brings unity - and this would mean the D'Tan and his loyalists were not looking out for the Romulan people in general, they were looking for an opportunity to assert their own ideological goals...
Do I like Sela? No - I found her appearance in Trek as idiotic... The Enterprise-C was destroyed at Nerendra III - but mysteriously Yar is captured? We know how Yar was in TNG - she was stubborn, and a fighter... Who in their right mind believes she simply became a consort to a Romulan General - and gave birth to Sela blah blah blah -
The Empire was destroyed by writers with a desire to make the Federation the focus of everything - (not that that truly bothers me - as the Federation has always been the main focus of Star Trek - ) and just give them one less real opponent. The Republic is not anything that can challenge the imperialistic Starfleet - it is a lapdog.. I know that offends, but how is a sub-par republic that begs for help from both Federation and Klingon assets going to be anything but a lapdog to both? Is D'Tan going to stand up against the ever expanding goals of the 'peaceful' Starfleet? No - because they paid for New Romulus... Is D'Tan going to push back against the KDF when they try to annex more of old Romulan space? No - because they helped destroy Tal'Shiar fleets that threatened the Romulan Rebels -
So of course Starfleet jumped at it - I admit that the delegation on Khitomer was idiotic - however they were there because the Federation wanted to be part of the beginning of the RR - so that the strings could be pulled later.. the same with the Klingons -
If D'Tan had truly cared for the Romulan people - he would NOT have splintered the Empire, instead he would have pledged that himself and his people would work for the RSE, thus making it stronger, and bringing the ideals of the RR to a point that showed that they were for the people - not personal power.
(Yes I know this is all Sci-Fi - and fiction... but come on - doesn't hurt to be involved in it lol)
If you look and read closely with the Romulans in TNG -the whole "superiority racist"trope is just rubbish -They allow a half breed made part up of an alien enemy to rise to the rank of commander, Her Romulan father had no issue mating with an alien-they accept Human defectors -Hell one gives up his career to marry a Klingon-just to many tng Romulan haters.
How can a "star empire" that has been blood enemies with one of the largest warlike races in quadrant Klingons for 75 years by the time of TNG be so fragile that one world is wiped out (If we belive st TRIBBLE 09) no one evacuated and every Romulan of note died than -its stupid, futhermore in Nemesis -even with senate wiped out the Empire held. Why because the Romulan military backed the coup -the Fleet would be everywhere within the Empire.
Plus if you do have a society that has massive surveillance structure like the tal shiar deemed by the dominion to be one of its biggest threats its clear is not just sitting on Romulus.
I agree Lucifer666 What we would see is the Romulans unite and strike back anyone who would attempt to move across the border.
I like Sela -I thought she was an interesting character in the show and novels but in STO just a mess.
The idea that they did not evacuate Romulus - and that the entire power of the Empire was nestled entirely on one planet in a vast Empire is slightly small minded on the part of the writers (be they on STO or canon)... So I agree - It is insane that this would have brought about the destruction of anything... They would have become even more powerful... The Tal'Shiar were indeed one of the most powerful forces in the Galaxy, - they would NOT have worked with the Elachi or the Iconians - because they destroyed Romulus... The Tal'Shiar may be evil from a Federation view point... but when push came to shove they would not have sided with the people who slaughtered billions of their people...
Part of the issue, I suspect, is that you are looking at it as Rhetorical Debate. I don't really do Rhetoric, as I view it as sophistry. My field is Logic.
Fans of any sort of entertainment have loyalties and rivalries. I can't see how you would be confused by this, seeing as both Bosnia and Germany (and many other nations) have experienced riots over something as mundane as football (soccer).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_hooliganism
The D'deridex is in-game. The Mogai is from Nemesis, and is also in-game. The T'liss is in-game, as is the D7, and so is the T'varo. The Romulan Science/Scout ship is also in-game (the Commander's Gig, with its two templates). A scaled-down Scimitar is in-game. NPCs use the D'deridex, the Mogai, and the Scimitar. In fact, I do not remember any NPCs in STO who do not use one of those ships from hard canon, apart from Temer, who uses a Dhelan, and a few other Dhelanir which show up in various missions commanded by nameless Republic Romulans.
TOS and TNG Romulan uniforms are available in the C-store. Disruptors are available in various places, both for ships and as ground weapons. You can even get a TOS disruptor pistol, from the Spectres arc. If you want to RP as a TOS Romulan or a TNG Romulan, the resources are (mostly) there to facilitate that. That's not the point, though. The point is that the Republic has significantly more in common with TOS Romulans than it does with most of the Romulans depicted in TNG, and claims that Republic Romulans are "not like the Romulans from the shows" ignore that reality.
Additionally, limiting the Imperial Star Navy to a single class of ship would be extremely impractical. No military would be so short-sighted as to put all their eggs in one basket; different tasks call for different tools. Add to that the fact that STO is not set in the era of any series or movie; gameplay starts in 2409, whereas the final episode of VOY was set in 2378, and the most recent movie (apart from the ... um ... "reboot" movies), Nemesis, was set in 2379. That's 30 years. I cannot see why the idea that additional developments would take place over that 3 decades would be a stumbling-block.
Finally, when it comes to RP, although the official storyline is what it is, there's no rule which forbids the player from RPing in any era of Trek, from the first day of ENT all the way to 2410 and beyond (remember, Temporal Lockbox can net you a R'Mor Temporal Science Vessel from the future, and the Lobi Consortium will sell you a Talvath Temporal Destroyer which is not only from the future, but also from one of the Mirror Universes). So, yes, I can play a TOS Romulan, a TNG Romulan, or any other sort of Romulan, including a temporally-displaced Romulan from the ENT era living in 2410. RP is limited only by the limitations of the RPer's imagination and any concessions she or he may wish to make to the very inconsistent material from hard canon, the still more inconsistent material from soft canon, and the also inconsistent material from STO itself, and any RP group's restrictions to which she or he is willing to submit.
Very well said - and the idea that the ISN would only have a small array of ships is indeed short sighted - the idea that the amount of ships seen in on-screen representations is small due to finite budget... Much like most Klingons depicted on television seemed to have only Bird-of-prey style ships - every time... so the D'deridex was used in the same manner - because at that time they could not physically and financially afford to display a diverse Romulan fleet - however they would undoubtedly have a rather diverse fleet - as seen in game - and if one expands the imagination to that outside of the Federation - the possibilities within the RSE would have been endless and well rounded... Because frankly, the Romulans posses much more potential than is seen from a Federation driven viewpoint.
As far as RP - that can be limited based on the locked decisions of the episodes, and the lack of ability to act as a RSE ship marauding Federation vessels, or Klingon bases - so the game itself does limit the ability of the imagination to be fully taken advantage of -
Because you despise anything not those 2 episodes, and have these really awesome blinders on that allow you to ignore and mock anything not those 2 or your favorite novel series. You do this A LOT but are quite dismissive of opposing opinions on the subject.
Like I said on the previous page... I don't see where those 2 episodes cannot or do not fit with what we see in TNG/DS9
Not the least of which was rushing development. I also agree.. this is what we have, cant change it cant get them to change it. We're stuck tryin to polish a TRIBBLE
The problem with that is several fold I think, same reason the original starfleet command game used all movie era models and design aesthetic. One company holds the license for ToS, another for Movie era, etc. Not sure if thats true still but it was at one point. Add to that CBS doesn't want the flagship "Trek" mmo rooted in the past. Personally I would kill for Wrath of Khan era for this mmo but it aint gonna happen.
The hearthworld was destroyed in 2387. The Star Empire did not immediately fracture, but it did experience the full measure of the machinations of what the leadership had devolved into, with multiple factions vying for power, and Donatra even leading a schismatic state for a while before reconciling with the Star Empire. This is entirely consistent with the predominant portrayal of Romulans in TNG (and to a lesser extent, the later series). It is the logical outgrowth of a story which features a culture whose political class advances through Machiavellian deceit, scheming, and backstabbing.
D'Tan was looking out for the people. He was not looking to prop up a corrupt and decadent political structure which had stopped serving the people decades earlier. Distinguishing between a people and their government is important. Also, it is established by Cryptic that D'Tan was not the founder or leader of the movement, but was elected by those who did start the movement to be their leader. It is also established by Cryptic that those who did start the movement were high-ranking military personnel who had had enough of the Tal'Shiar.
And I agree, it makes little sense, in several particulars, that Sela would even exist.
I disagree with that. "Path to 2409" predates LoR by 5 years. Until LoR, the Republic was not a thing in STO, yet the civil war and the factionalism (to say nothing of the incompetence and narcissism of the political leadership) within the RSE were tearing the RSE apart even in "Path to 2409."
To characterize what happened at the Khitomer Conference as "begging" betrays a bias. No such thing occurred. Seeking alliance is something all sovereign polities do, unless they actually be xenophobic and isolationist. Our most powerful assets are our own, not Federation or Klingon. We have our own T5 (and now T5-U and T6) assets. We've had T5 assets since before the Khitomer Conference. "Alliance" is not "vassalage," nor even "clientship." The Republic is a sovereign polity, and will defend its own interests against even its allies, as we saw with regard to the Gateway in the Jouret system. You can of course pretend that didn't happen, but it did happen, whether it will fit your view of the Republic or not.
They wanted no part of the Republic, nor did the Klingons. Perhaps you should replay the mission and pay closer attention. The Klingons were less offensive than T'nae (pretty shocking, unless T'nae be an Undine infiltrator or just plain batguano crazy, either of which is a distinct possibility), but they were not terribly keen on the idea of alliance with Romulans either.
The Empire was already splintered by its own devices. The Tal'Shiar was widely hated by everyone except the political class (and even by some of them), yet they had considerable power (most of which they usurped or gained by use of ill-gotten wealth which they stole from the noble Houseclans after the assassination of Tal'Aura). Donatra led her own schismatic "Imperial Romulan State" for four years (2381-2385). The exact date of the founding of the Republic is not easy to determine (the only source I have so far found implied that it was at the end of the 24th or beginning of the 25th century, so I have said that 2399 was when the movement got organized as a result of the assassination of General tr'Tebok, and 2400 was when the actual departure and declaration of independence occurred, but these two dates are of course only canon for my fleets, until and unless Cryptic provides more details on exactly when the Republic was established). According to the real-world Montevideo Conference on the Rights and Duties of States, external recognition is not necessary for a state to exist as such, so recognition of the Republic in 2409 by the UFP and the Klingon Empire did not establish the Republic, in spite of this date being now given for the founding by both the STO Wiki and Memory Beta. At any rate, the Imperial Romulan State was by no means the only example of factionalism among Romulans and Remans post-Hobus and pre-Republic. Tal'Aura, Donatra. Taris, Tebok, Tomalak, Sela, Xiomek, these are only a few of the names involved in the infighting within the RSE (see "Path to 2409," a Cryptic publication which predates LoR by 5 years). Again, D'Tan is not the cause of schism among the Romulan people, and blaming D'Tan for things he inherited is the tactic of a partisan ideologue, not someone who looks at the whole picture of history rationally.
That's completely inaccurate, Kodachi, and you know it. I have pointed to the unnamed Romulan Commander in TNG episode "The Chase." I have pointed to Dr. tr'R'Mor, I have pointed to Alidar tr'Jarok, I have pointed to D'Tan and the other "Unificationists" in TNG, as examples of TOS Romulan attitudes still existing in TNG and the later series. What I despise was the decision of the writers of TNG to sell the Romulans down the river and turn them into a culture of dogs terrorized by the fascist police state of their "masters," instead of the wolves they were before, with notable exceptions such as those mentioned above. The government of the RSE under Praetor Vrax (the Praetor who sent Keras on the mission seen in "Balance of Terror") was militaristic, yes, because Vrax was a politician who wanted to make a name for himself (the only thing in this which is not from hard canon is the name "Vrax"). Militarism and fascism, however, are not coterminous. Put another way, all fascism may be militaristic, but not all militarism is fascist. By the time of TEI, Vrax was gone (soft canon, yes, but you don't see her terribly worried about what her Praetor might think or attempting to hide things she was doing from anyone in her crew the way Keras did).
I dunno. Maybe, for one thing, ask Marc Okrand what the letters over the Imperial Raptor are supposed to mean, and contrast that with Di'on t'Charvon offering amnesty to the crew of the Enterprise? Maybe, for another thing, compare the ideal of "duty" held by tr'Keras with the blind obedience out of fear which was more typical among the TNG Romulan military? Maybe just look at the attitudes in general? Maybe compare and contrast "The Way of D'era" with what you see in the TOS episodes (and yeah, LUG isn't hard canon, but it was licensed by Paramount/Viacom because the latter didn't like FASA's take on things and pulled their license and gave it to LUG precisely because they wanted the Trek RPG to be consistent with the TNG vision, of Romulans and other things). Or maybe just notice how many people on both sides of this issue make distinctions between TOS Romulans and TNG Romulans.
And yes, I have watched you put on your own set of blinders and rail at and refuse any position or opinion you don't like and contrasts with your own idea of Romulans. Its why I gave up on trying to argue it with you before. You are dead set on X and to hades with anything else. You use the examples from TNG as exceptions, you throw them out as abberations that show how ToS is validated. Stop and consider a different angle... Perhaps one of the reasons that these named and unnamed examples from TNG that we can point to are there because Romulan Society HAS NOT CHANGED THAT MUCH.
Its completely possible your favorite Romulan heroine was lying through her teeth about 'amnesty' and had every intention of capturing the Enterprise and her crew to catapult her career into an Admiral's uniform, possibly even the start of a Senatorial run. Considering the parallels between Rome and the Star Empire, its quite possible that military power equated to political power and vice versa, just like Rome. Capturing a famous Federation starship, her (in)famous Captain and crew would have been a coup for a Klingon too. Imagine the glory and prestige if a USA Captain had captured the German Bismark and its crew and sailed it back to Norfolk. We don't know, that side of the story was and will never be told. But the very fact that she took the direction of trying to capture it intact as a prize tells us things. Compare that with actions in TNG and later, and we can see several possible motives easily. Sure she took a liking to Spock, that was icing on her cake if she could get him too, but not her initial objective nor her main focus.
I recently watched both the ToS episodes again, and if you do so with the knowledge of how Romulans act in TNG and later, they fit in well, you might see them in a different light than you did earlier, but they are NOT the glaring inconsistency you try to make them into.
Why would the Empire Fracture as a result of Romulus/Remus being destroyed by the Hobus Event?
If it was that chaotic/fragile in terms of Stability your telling me the Klingon Empire its blood enemy would not just have done a strike to produce the same effect?
You do realise we have real world powers based on any version of Government that include even more real world issues such as racial tensions that are still intact despite having political infighting and a powerful police state?
Leaving the real world -you have a race that lives for centuries -has prevailed for over 2000 years and openly fought the Federation it survived that, it has an open/secretive conflict with the largest/warlike species in the Qradrant? Its has built spacefaring vessels en masse that are a match or superior to its enemies flagship/capital ships-it perfected Cloaking. It survived the gutting of the Tal Shiar if that is believed to be the glue that binds TNG Romulans together I disagree with that-It was prepared to go to war even after its Praetor/Senate was wiped out- Commander Suran
"How many Warbirds will you need?"
Your telling me that because of the Machiavellian deceit, scheming, and backstabbing The 2000+ year Empire falls apart in 23 years? Its Logical?
Sorry to say the realities of poor writing cannot be propped up-
I respect your intelligent/detailed answers that are mature-hoping you do the courtesy of replying.
Uhh. Kodachi. I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I've been saying. Romulan society as a whole did not change that much; the government on the other hand did.
A lot of assumptions there, but the one I will point out is the assumption that a more complete story "will never be told." For better or for worse, CBS and Paramount can still approve a screenplay and make a new series or movie to tell a more detailed version of TEI.
And speaking of assumptions, why would the Romulans not know that the First Officer of the Federation's flagship was a half-Vulcan, half-Human male? Yes, she acts surprised on first meeting them face to face, and even says (what did you say about "lying through her teeth"?) that they were unaware of him, yet she was monitoring the communications between Subcommander Tal and the Enterprise and so certainly knew before they were beamed aboard. But why would she not have already known -- especially if, as some of the RSE/Tal'Shiar supporters have tried to claim, the Tal'Shiar was already around before they were founded in 2344? Surely a sneaky, conniving, espionage/spycraft-gifted people such as some of the Tal'Shiar/RSE supporters like to portray Romulans (fwiw, I don't disagree with the idea that some Romulans are rather skilled in espionage and spycraft; it's established in hard canon) would have extensive dossiers on all sorts of military and political personnel in Starfleet and the UFP. How long do you think Selak was posing as T'Pel? ENT establishes that Romulans were already rather well-established in deep cover positions on Vulcan. Perhaps a more appropriate question is not "why would the Romulans not know that the First Officer of the Federation's flagship was a half-Vulcan, half-Human male," but "how could the Romulans have possibly missed that fact" -- so even your statement that t'Charvon's initial objective and main focus were not to get Spock is itself an assumption. Indeed, I have contended exactly the opposite, that as soon as the Federation vessel which had violated the Neutral Zone was identified, they knew exactly who was on the bridge crew, and acted accordingly, by sending a female commander whose primary objective had to do with Spock. A hundred years later (exactly, if not to the exact day; * see note below), Spock revived the Unificationist movement on Romulus. I'd say her mission was a success, if neither exactly, nor as immediate, as was hoped/intended.
* Note:
Determining traditional Julian/Gregorian dates from TNG stardates is fairly straightforward. The beginning of TNG episode "Unification I" is "Stardate 45233.1" = March 26, 2368, Time: 07:33:01, and this is supported by Memory Alpha, which gives "2368" for this episode. TOS Stardates, on the other hand, are another matter. The beginning of TEI is "Stardate 5027.3" = Fri Mar 22 2267 19:33:06 GMT, but is given as "2268" at Memory Alpha.
The source for these conversions concludes that "either the time ratio of The Original Series Stardates changed mid-way through the original five-year mission and continued through the movies, or else the motion pictures use another Stardate system with a completely new starting point and different time ratio from The Original Series Stardates." If the former is correct, then the stardate given in a third season TOS episode like TEI may not be converted accurately. Apparently, 2268 is as close to "official" as we can get for TEI, but it is rather interesting that the converter gives 22 March for the start of the episode, while "Unification I" starts on 26 March, a short time after Spock went "missing." If the year be the only mistake in the conversion, then TEI began on 22 March 2268, and "Unification I" began on 26 March 2368, some time after Spock disappeared and long enough after his disappearance that his current whereabouts had been determined.
From the exchange which took place in the turbolift at the end of TEI, we can take the premise that t'Charvon won Spock's heart for herself, but not for the Star Empire.
Now, 100 is not a multiple of 7, but the state of Pon Farr is not necessary for Vulcan mating to occur. Seeing Spock come out of the sleeping chamber into the sitting room of t'Charvon's quarters, after he suggested that an hour's delay would be acceptable, ought to do more than suggest that the two of them were in flagrante delicto during the events of the episode, in spite of "Amok Time" having occurred only a year or so prior to TEI (Stardate 3372.7 = 2267, according to Memory Alpha). Really, the unseen sexual encounter between t'Charvon and Spock in TEI was a rather obvious occurrence, even though the act itself was unseen (and of course, we're talking about American prime time television in 1968 here, so that was probably as obvious as it could have been). But let's return to the idea of 100.
Ten is given in soft canon as somewhat important in Romulan temporal reckoning, with their "week" being a "tenday." Since the Vulcans departed -- to some extent -- from the old ways, while the Romulans, for the most part (Tellus' newly invented religion notwithstanding, it being only one of the perspectives of those on The Journey), held fast to the old ways, and temporal reckoning being a somewhat traditional matter in any culture, it is safe to assume that the Vulcan "week" would likewise be a "tenday." It is not therefore beyond the realm of possibility (indeed, it is more than merely possible) that "century" (ten tens of years) would hold some traditional significance for both Vulcans and Romulans, and Spock himself was not only half-Human, but by 2368 had spent more than enough time among Humans to be familiar with their traditions as well; the idea of "century" is still current in the Trek era, as we hear the term used many times in hard canon.
So I would say that "Unification I" was a not-very-subtle (if you pay attention and know enough about the backstory) nod to TEI. And I would say (and indeed have said) that t'Charvon was far more interested in Spock than she was in the Enterprise, and that this was intended from before her wing of vessels confronted the NCC 1701. And although the mission seemed to be a failure in both regards at the time (2268), "Unification I" (and II) strongly suggests that fruit was in fact produced, whether or not that fruit were the outcome intended by Romulan Star Command.
You will have your reply, although not just yet. I was awakened by my cats going crazy and decided to eat a bite before going back to bed, and then thought I would come look at the fora for a moment, only to wind up spending 2 hours here already reading and finally finding that Kodachi had replied to me and warranted a response, and now, although I'm fairly well awake, I intend to go into STO and do the FE for this week's reward, after which, I will (likely) return to bed.
As a lover/owner of a cat I can respect that since I'm typing at Australian times I mean decent hours I fully understand different timezones.
The thing is I view Star Trek as a overall piece of work. I 'care' and can dig deeply into almost anything from it be it Federation content, Klingon, Romulan, Borg or whatever. My confusion originated from what I thought was your disregard of opinions/interpretations from people about a "Romulan" matter who did not identify themselves as "Romulan" in these forums. This is something, even if it doesn't apply to you int his case, I observe frequently on these forums, especially with the Klingon players (I am admittedly more involved int he Klingon gameplay part than I'm in the Romulan) which I can only call a form of "forum-RP". I think this is a behaviour that is hindering healthy discussions about a topic most users here should be united about, though.
You are right of course, but I think I failed to bring my point across. Due to much more screentime and STO clearly being a TNG (post-TNG) game, the overall TNG aesthetics of Romulans is what most players would expect, I guess. It was my expectation as well. Canon ships, uniform and weapons are of course in the game but if you are with the Romulan faction in this game, visit the social zones etc. nothing looks like the Romulans one could expect. When you call for fleet support you get a non canon ship using non canon weapons and those Romulans that still resemble the TNG canon attire, weapons and ships are enemies. I can understand people being disgruntled about that, even more than about Starfleet's depiction or the "red" side of the game, both of which also are poorly represented.
To circumvent this, my Romulan char is a Garidian from "A final Unity" - I thought this game made an excellent approach to portray quasi-Romulans that do not fall into the established view of Romulans, though. They would have been a better alternative for Cryptic if legal issues would have allowed it, in my personal opinion. About a transcript of Garidian information you once asked me about, I have to double check but I think the game's dialogue can be extracted from the game files, although I would strongly advise you check it out. It is a very memorable and great Star Trek game, although you play the TNG crew in it - but you shouldn't let that fact keep you from playing a great point and click adventure game.
From a "realistic" point of view this may be accurate, but I liked it never the less. Romulans were always shown to prefer to strike from the shadows, launching devestating surprise attacks. The D'Deridex especially had a on-screen reputation of being deadly and possibly outgunning even a Galaxy class starship, yet in "traditional" line battles those ships fared rather poorly which to me makes perfect sense as their purpose is intimidation, devestating forward firepower from cloak and enough space to have plenty of troops on board to quickly take over enemy target - they literally strike from the shadows, occupy and leave without a trace. It seems lengthy open combat would something a Romulan fleet would rather avoid if possible. I liked that characterization very much. The Mogai struck me as a reaction on the results of the Dominion conflict and being more feasible for prolonged combat. Lighter ships may of course exist but I personally think it greatly diminishes the Romulan "signature" of warfare.
Of course, true, but RP is not recognized by the game itself and especially if you play TOS era the immersion is shattered once you leave your own privte bridge instance
In another matter, I saw that your recent postings about Romulan differences come with added remarks to your fleet's lore and your interpretation. I don't assume they are there because I mentioned it but that was the whole reason I engaged in the debate in the first place
While I largely agree with kodachikuno's interpretation of TEI (in essence the amnesty remark which you prominently referencing is the equivalent of someone pointing a gun at your head saying "surrender and nobody's hurt") it is now a mere matter of differing personal interpretation of what we saw and not a discussion about what is canon and what isn't anymore. And that's a very interesting topic indeed inw hich I hope neither side sees any reason to raise their blood pressure over resting (or typing) levels
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Part One
Empires generally have regional governors and regional governments, yes, but they are also highly centralized; it is one of the shortcomings of the imperial model of government that it is more or less federal in the sense of strong central government (I say "more or less," because the level of centralization varies between empires). In the case of the Shiar ih'Saeihr Rihan (Romulan Star Empire), the Praetor (and/or Emperor/Empress, when that office was in use) was concentrated power.
From Memory Alpha:
From the position of hard canon, then, we can say that the Praetor of the RSE held executive (Continuing Committee) and legislative (Senate) power, as well as command of the military, which was itself the source of his/her authority. From real-world history, we can surmise that the Praetor of the RSE likely also held judicial authority.
From soft canon, we have this:
So what we have here is a situation in which one person (although at various times, the office of Praetor was invested in more than one person at a time) held supreme governmental and military power. Checks and balances such as exist in contemporary real-world republics appear to have been lacking. The death of the Praetor and all Senators would only be a setback, as the Continuing Committee (the executive), the judiciary, and the military survived, and new Senators could be elected or appointed.
Likely also is the view that the Senators were representatives of various regions on Romulus and of the various colony worlds. Except for those from colonies, the Senators would have lived on Romulus, while those from the colonies would usually be on Romulus during legislative sessions (and we know from "Path to 2409" that the Senate was in session in 2387, which information was taken from the comic book series Star Trek: Countdown, a tie-in to the 2009 Star Trek film). Romulan Star Command (the body which governed the Imperial Star Navy) would have almost certainly been in the Eisn system, if not on Romulus itself. The Continuing Committee would also have been based on Romulus, and so would the headquarters of the Tal'Shiar and whatever functioned as the Imperial Supreme Court.
With the destruction of the Eisn system in 2387, then, the Praetor, the Senate, the Continuing Committee, the Supreme Court, Romulan Star Command, and Tal'Shiar HQ would all have been wiped out. The entire central government of the RSE was thus GONE, unless some few Senator(s) happened to not be in attendance for the session in which Spock petitioned them to evacuate. While the idea that some devolved powers existed for the various colonies is not entirely out of the bounds of possibility, the central government would nevertheless have held the balance of power, and with that entire system destroyed, a power vacuum would obviously result. Some colonies would seize the opportunity to cast off the yoke of the oppressive imperial government now that it no longer existed, but the Imperial Star Navy remained, and that is exactly how the power vacuum was eventually filled.
But let's go back and get some background leading up to the Hobus supernova, which will reveal some of the sources of the unrest and chaos which followed. I'm going to quote, as the reference is no longer readily available as it once was, and I am not sure that everyone here has access. This will require at least one additional post, and possibly two, due to the character limit of the new fora. *shakes fist at Twitter for encouraging short attention spans*
Part Two (continued from part one)
From "Path to 2409" ...
2379-2380:
2381:
2382:
2383:
2384:
2385:
2386:
2387:
Finally, I will quote only the Romulan bit of the same work at 2388:
I hope this gives a more complete picture and facilitates understanding of how things could become so unstable. From 2389 on, it gets even more interesting, but this reply has already been long enough.
Thank you for this - was a great read as well..
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I'm only going to reply to this part of your post.
"Romulan Discussion" (as this forum is now called, formerly named "Romulan Gameplay"), like "Federation Discussion" and "Klingon Discussion," have featured what you refer to as "forum RP" for quite a while. I doubt that is going to change any time soon, and I honestly don't see a need for it to change. It is a hindrance only when discerning between the RP and the RL of another poster is challenging to the reader, but I find it fairly easy to distinguish between the two. Obviously an RP character is not going to comment on game mechanics in that sense, so such comments are obviously OOC. When I say "We Romulans" or the like, though, it can be either IC or OOC, because I may mean it as "We who are Romulans" or "We who play Romulans in-game" (I usually try to say something like "RRF players" instead, but none of us are perfect, so I may not always remember to do this), and an overlap exists to some extent, in that the interests of RRF players will often coincide with the interests of their characters.
But as for disregarding opinions of those who have KDF or Fed avatars/signatures/user names, as I have said recently, those should serve to indicate where someone's loyalties lie. My first STO character was a Vulcan, made back when there was no LoR, back when you had to make a Fed character before you were allowed to make a KDF character. But this "Vulcan" was always intended as a Romulan spy in disguise. My second character was an Orion, whom I enjoyed playing as an Orion for a while, but eventually, I decided she was also a Romulan spy in disguise; she was my main for a while after I became ... averse to all the drama I had experienced in Fed fleets, and she remained my main until LoR. LoR had still not come out at the time. When LoR did come out, I made a KDF-allied Romulan. It wasn't long after that I finally got an LTS and made 3 more Romulans (this gave me a "Vulcan" Sci, an "Orion" Sci, a KDF-allied Romulan Sci, a KDF-allied Romulan Engi, a Fed-allied Romulan Sci, and a Fed-allied Romulan Engi). When Delta Recruitment event was running, I made 4 more characters: a KDF-allied Romulan Tac, a Fed Alien Tac (who is of primarily Romulan ancestry, with some Reman, Andorian, and Orion heritage), an Orion Engi (she's actually an Orion, not a Romulan spy, but her allegiance is to the New Romulan Republic, not the Klingon Empire nor the Orion Syndicate), and a Fed-allied Romulan Tac. Six of my ten characters are therefore obviously Romulan and Romulan by game mechanics, while two of the remaining four are covertly Romulan (although not by game mechanics), and the other two are an Orion and an Alien of mixed ethnicity. All of them are members of my fleets and therefore regard themselves as citizens of, and loyal to, the Republic. My forum user name is not Trek-related at all ("Proto-Goth" being a term applied to those of us who were more or less "Gothic" before that subculture developed into a distinct subculture and became known as "Gothic"). My avatar is of my main, the KDF-allied Romulan Sci. My signature is, apart from the bit in magenta at the end, entirely and obviously Romulan. I make my loyalties known in the fora. Others do likewise, although some whose primary (or only) loyalties are to the KDF or the Federation seem to believe that they have some right to interfere in what are native concerns of RRF players. There is a way to voice an opinion without disrespect, and there is a way to simply express an opinion without attempting something less honest. What I mean by the latter is that there are certain players who like to come in to our forum and stir up nonsense, in part to keep our already passionate people in a state of heightened passions because they like to annoy, and in part because they are following Machiavelli's advice (which I quoted in this thread recently) to encourage division within those whom they see as enemies or rivals (essentially "Divide et impera"). As such, I find it advisable to be cautious in considering the posts of those who do not, so to speak, wear my team jersey (Dallas Cowboys!).
I now am speaking purely subjectively that I find "countdown" one of the worst written and frankly offensive pieces of anything related to Trek I have ever come across -I will never agree that there were no fleet vessels in orbit or already had not LEFT with the Romulan Praetor and heads of Government already? All that is available is a senate shuttle!-That no contingency was in place likewise for the High Command/Tal Shiar -One D'Deridex Warbird alone had accommodation for 1500 Troops.
Even if I stay a dry wretch and switch off minimal intelligence will I than believe that the Praetor and his Government beam onto a civilian mining vessel with no security provision/process/procedure or prior security operatives ensuring that vessel and crew were secure. Time pressed or not.
Than continuing on we have a situation in which a miner locates and gains access to a secret military facility than upgrades his mining vessel with Romulan/Borg tech to the goddawful hellraiser ship Narada (I will not go step by step dissecting on this part-it is at this point its so stupid and I cannot suspend my disbelief any further.)
If this is canon and accepted -than how is Worf's death reconciled as it occurs in Countdown?
This is where I have issue following on-simply put the Government should have survived the Hobus event -which of course would alter all that follows.
Thank you for providing all that information. I respect that you are taking the time to clearly highlight how the state of the RSE in game. To myself it is built on a flawed premise-and to Cryptics credit they have done well to get it into any kind of sense.
As far as judging people based on their signature or other such inane gibberish - My first character in STO was a Federation Human - while he is currently a Vice Admiral, my preference has been to delve into my Romulan Character - as I find it to be more appealing than the Starfleet yuts I started out with..
Being superficial simply because someone has not made a signature yet, is mundane...
Romulan Info from "Path to 2409"
Sela was in exile at the time, but she did have her allies still inside the territory of the RSE, so there is certainly a possibility that she had something to do with it.
As for the rest, if someone has no avatar/signature, that's not what I'm talking about. You are apparently (based on your post count) a newcomer to these fora; when you are more familiar with the way things happen in this forum (Romulan Discussion), I suspect you will understand my meaning. Due to PWE's rule against "naming and shaming," I cannot be much more specific, but I will say that there is a certain occasional participant in this forum who has Klingon imagery in his avatar and signature, and who seems to take a perverse delight in attempting to perpetuate or resurrect the ferocity and vitriol which was formerly more common here. There have also been those with Federation avatars/signatures, and who are obviously fond of Federation gameplay advantages, who have occasionally strolled into our forum in order to urinate all over our game suggestions/requests, because if our concerns were addressed, it might decrease some of the privileged status which Fed players enjoy.
....yeah that'll happen....
Well for starters, at this point the Enterprise was a bit (in)famous, it was not the Flagship. At no point is it named a flagship except in TNG and JJTrek. Also, at no point did I say she was surprised or unaware of his existence... I said he wasn't the main objective, just icing on the cake.
Extensive files doesn't necessarily mean detailed, or accurate, we can go into real world examples. Also the "sneaky, conniving, espionage/spycraft-gifted people" gets a bit over-hyped. They were better at it than their peers, with the possible exception of the Obsidian Order(which imo stole Romulan development and gave it to spoonheads but thats an entirely different rant). But basically ANY governmental and military structure has "sneaky, conniving, espionage/spycraft-gifted people" and spends undue amounts of time being "sneaky, conniving, espionage/spycraft-gifted people," even governments that like to pretend they are the bastions of truth, freedom, and justice. We can pull a huge amount of IRL and Fictitious references here, even Trek ones.
Cant' address this, have watched maybe 20 episodes of that wretched abortion of a series. The only ones I actually liked were the Mirror Universe episodes.
see previous comments on this subject
This is based on pure fangirl desires and isn't even really worth responding too except to state its ludicrous.
no... this was... just way too much tripe... I can see it being possible that 100yrs was significant, and it would make nice RP. I also agree that t'Charvon was almost assuredly the reason Spock chose to go there later in life and try to improve relations with the Romulans, I think the reunification movement was not an initial objective so much as a spinoff result of his actions, and became his focus. But again, all of this is conjecture and based on head canon, desire, and circumstantial evidence... we don't and won't know the details. (barring of course some magical release by CBS)
Which is why I am not in a fleet in STO at the moment - it is either Klingon or Federation allies - haven't found one that is specifically for Romulans - and seeing as the game essentially uses Romulans as added firepower for either side - it does not surprise me. Is a shame..
Or you could find a fleet likemours, that focuses on Romulans at the expense of those other guys. You know...Not-Romulans.
Sounds perfect -
I'll send you a PM with instructions, since this isn't a recruiting thread.