Section 31

picard51 · August 2015

I feel like all this talk of time based superweapons, and breaking federation laws is something more suited to the boys in black. It bothers me that this whole Krenim business is an official starfleet operation. It should've been, in my opinion, something Drake was running, sending us to go hunt down the krenim artifact on Drozana, then finding the Krenim, talking them into joining the fight, helping them build the weapon, and then, with the help of the men with no conscience, decide on a target. It just seems wrong that Nog, and Tuvok, and officials of recognized governments are running this train wreck. Section 31's stated purpose is to do the stuff that Starfleet can't because of their morals, or simply because they're bound by laws. The story could've stayed the same, exactly the same. Just replace House of Pegh with a 31 owned Intel ship running that op. the story's could've all been the same, everything could've been fine, if only it had been a behind-the-scenes kind of thing.

seaofsorrows · August 2015

I think it would be kind of hard for Section 31 to pull off an operation of that scale, much less keep it under wraps.

Personally, I'm still hoping the story plays out that it was considered in a moment of desperation and fear, but in the end the 'time ship' doesn't get used. The Federation should oppose it because it completely violates everything they stand for. The Klingons should consider it dishonorable to erase your opponent instead of face them in battle like warriors. And the Romulans have seen everything they had destroyed by time travel, I would think they have had about enough as well.

Honestly, the plan sounds too reckless and dangerous even for Section 31. It's just completely idiotic for any faction to think this Krenim Time Ship thing is a good idea. Simply put, Section 31 wouldn't be this stupid.

bernatk · August 2015

Article 14, Section 31!

picard51 · August 2015

seaofsorrows: I don't think so. I mean, yeah it's not exactly cautious but Section 31 are the kings of desperate measures. Everyone has to realize that the Iconians are right in calling themselves God's. They're effectively that powerful. We can throw as many ships as we want at them, but they'll always have more, and they can drop them in behind whatever picket line we form. Section 31, I'd like to think, would see that war by normal rules won't do and so they have to write their own. In doing so, creating a paradox that only they would know ocurred. To put it bluntly, once you change the past, the future doesn't know any better. They could even the fight a little bit and neither side would ever know. The Alliance would walk away with the "Good always wins" mentality they have now, and everything would go on as it should. I'm not opposed to breaking the rules of the game, It just bothers me who is breaking them

shpoks · August 2015

No, just no. The whole Iconian storyline has been subpar in quality IMHO and if the Krenim weapon is used in a manner many people suspect and speculate it would (which for the sake of truth we don't know yet) - it will only make a complete joke and trainwreck of the storyline, however, even under those circumistances I'd much rather have it as an official operation and leave the complaints under the 'Cryptic lacks the feel for Star Trek' file then to have my character being forcefully (due to the nature of the game - railroaded story progression without influence on the outcome) ordered around by terrorist leaders such as Franklin Drake or working for underground cells such as Section 31.
Honestly, I consider having missions orchestrated by Drake and S31 in the Devidian arc and Nimbus as one of the dumbest things Cryptic has done so far and I really don't thing we need more substandard writing that would make no sense within the IP. If anything, our characters as Starfleet Officers would have missions about exposing this terrorist cell to the public. Let's remember that the heroes from the Star Trek shows showed little to no compassion or understading for Section 31 and their ways. O'Brien and Bashir had no qualms about killing Luther Sloan in order to extract the secrets from his brain, nor did Sisko condemn their actions after finding out what they did.

mustrumridcully0 · August 2015

People act as if Starfleet has never used time travel before.
They even used it to their save Earth. (And no one got in trouble for it, in fact, the opposite.)

The Temporal Weapon might not be the solution. But it might also be it. Deleting the Iconians from existence will not be the right solution, obviously, but there is still plenty of potential for other changes to the timeline that could help. Sure it won't go without a hitch - what time travel mission ever does? Heck, what mission does?

seaofsorrows · August 2015

shpoks wrote: »

I'd much rather have it as an official operation and leave the complaints under the 'Cryptic lacks the feel for Star Trek' file then to have my character being forcefully (due to the nature of the game - railroaded story progression without influence on the outcome) ordered around by terrorist leaders such as Franklin Drake or working for underground cells such as Section 31.

I should have just said that...

I would like to change my answer to that.

gradii · August 2015

picard51 wrote: »

seaofsorrows: I don't think so. I mean, yeah it's not exactly cautious but Section 31 are the kings of desperate measures. Everyone has to realize that the Iconians are right in calling themselves God's. They're effectively that powerful. We can throw as many ships as we want at them, but they'll always have more, and they can drop them in behind whatever picket line we form. Section 31, I'd like to think, would see that war by normal rules won't do and so they have to write their own. In doing so, creating a paradox that only they would know ocurred. To put it bluntly, once you change the past, the future doesn't know any better. They could even the fight a little bit and neither side would ever know. The Alliance would walk away with the "Good always wins" mentality they have now, and everything would go on as it should. I'm not opposed to breaking the rules of the game, It just bothers me who is breaking them

The Iconians are not gods or even close. Theyre powerful beings with weaknesses just like less powerful beings have.

Finding said weakness should have been the priority for research the start, and now we've found it. you can KILL iconians without messing with a bad Krenim toy from hell.

gradii · August 2015

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

People act as if Starfleet has never used time travel before.
They even used it to their save Earth. (And no one got in trouble for it, in fact, the opposite.)

The Temporal Weapon might not be the solution. But it might also be it. Deleting the Iconians from existence will not be the right solution, obviously, but there is still plenty of potential for other changes to the timeline that could help. Sure it won't go without a hitch - what time travel mission ever does? Heck, what mission does?

if you want to make changes to the timeline I invite you to use one of the several ways we've used before. it's a lot less stupid.

mustrumridcully0 · August 2015

gradii wrote: »

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

People act as if Starfleet has never used time travel before.
They even used it to their save Earth. (And no one got in trouble for it, in fact, the opposite.)

The Temporal Weapon might not be the solution. But it might also be it. Deleting the Iconians from existence will not be the right solution, obviously, but there is still plenty of potential for other changes to the timeline that could help. Sure it won't go without a hitch - what time travel mission ever does? Heck, what mission does?

if you want to make changes to the timeline I invite you to use one of the several ways we've used before. it's a lot less stupid.

Actually, I thought about that. There are some drawbacks of the Krenim method - it seems to delete something from the entire timeline, not from a particular start, but:
If you send someone back in time, you risk a lot more side effects than the Krenim method seems. WHen you send someone back, he has all kinds of possibilities to TRIBBLE up. Look at the Whales-Saving mission - Checkov landed in an hospital, and McCoy healed a patient with medicine from the future. A whaler ship saw a Klingon Bird of Prey uncloak in front of their eyes (imagine the whole events happend 20 years later, where everyone would have had a digital camera).

The initial impact of the Krenim weapon is very well contained. Instead of the countless of things that happen when you send a person (or persons, or a whole ship) back, just a single thing does not happen.

People like to speak of the butterfly effect when you change things in the past - but they insist that instead of a butterlfy, we basically send thousands of butterflies, as if that would make sense more predictable!

nynik · August 2015

I often dislike the use of time travel as a deus ex machina solution to stories, but, thankfully, there is a great line in Tales of War #14 which really puts a fine point on its use here (for me at least)...

Admiral Quinn's point of view:

If the choice is morality or destruction, I fear that many even in Starfleet will choose the option that gives us a chance to see tomorrow.

Link to Tales of War #14

adamkafei · August 2015

To be honest, two of my characters accept that space is not a friendly place and that in extreme circumstances, no matter how regrettable organisations like section 31 are needed. It's all very well to say "We're better than them" but even if we are better than them, it doesn't stop them resorting to underhanded tactics and in having an organisation that is prepared to do the same, we are equally much safer from such threats.

I do think that Cryptic failed to so S31 and co justice in their writing though. Ultimately though, when faced with an existential threat survival instinct dictates you do everything within your power to survive, if that means removing someone from all time, that's what you do. You then have to live with that decision for the rest of your life.

kayajay · August 2015

Wouldn't it be great if there was a Section 31 Recruitment & Training Programme. A bit like the Specialization system, only you actually get to do something, like missions on a Holodeck and even an infiltration to New Romulus, etc.

adamkafei · August 2015

kayajay wrote: »

you actually get to do something

Which is reason enough for us to expect it to never be a thing.

potasssium · August 2015

seaofsorrows wrote: »

I think it would be kind of hard for Section 31 to pull off an operation of that scale, much less keep it under wraps.

[\quote]

Have you played the Newish KDF intro with Franklin Drake prominently featured?

It would perhaps be better as a Section 31 op, with the player either helping or hindering.

angrytarg · August 2015

shpoks wrote: »

No, just no. The whole Iconian storyline has been subpar in quality IMHO and if the Krenim weapon is used in a manner many people suspect and speculate it would (which for the sake of truth we don't know yet) - it will only make a complete joke and trainwreck of the storyline, however, even under those circumistances I'd much rather have it as an official operation and leave the complaints under the 'Cryptic lacks the feel for Star Trek' file then to have my character being forcefully (due to the nature of the game - railroaded story progression without influence on the outcome) ordered around by terrorist leaders such as Franklin Drake or working for underground cells such as Section 31.
Honestly, I consider having missions orchestrated by Drake and S31 in the Devidian arc and Nimbus as one of the dumbest things Cryptic has done so far and I really don't thing we need more substandard writing that would make no sense within the IP. If anything, our characters as Starfleet Officers would have missions about exposing this terrorist cell to the public. Let's remember that the heroes from the Star Trek shows showed little to no compassion or understading for Section 31 and their ways. O'Brien and Bashir had no qualms about killing Luther Sloan in order to extract the secrets from his brain, nor did Sisko condemn their actions after finding out what they did.

+1 *puts a cloven hooved print under @shpoks 's posting*

Section 31

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