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Poor neglected escorts and how to fix them.

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  • shandypandyshandypandy Member Posts: 632 Arc User
    lsegn wrote: »
    *Logical fallacies and other nonsense*

    I can't remember the last time I saw an escort flown by elite DPS players for practical purposes. Not that I put much stock in the opinions of those morally bankrupt individuals. Destroyers are a different matter because they have cruiser-like qualities.

    The entire point of an Escort is to use Cannons and those are horrifically broken, but escorts themselves could do with some minor additions. Namely the unique class ability/equipment I listed above. You will notice I never once mentioned giving them ANYTHING even close to what science ships and cruisers have but instead a completely different and new mechanic to make them different. Every other class of ship can do an escorts job better than an escort. Even Exotic damage builds on science ships are more effective than DHC's.

    Perhaps if you'd spent more time in preschool learning about reading comprehension rather than sniffing glue you would understand that.

    *eye roll*

    You might have had some kind of argument, until you just randomly started insulting people. Then you became a numpty.
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  • bernatkbernatk Member Posts: 1,089 Bug Hunter
    heh I remember when "rainbow beamescort" was a cuss word and was ridiculed. Now it's a topdog.
    Anyway, keep calm and FAW on.
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  • uryenserellonturyenserellont Member Posts: 858 Arc User
    It never made sense to me that cannons suffer drop off but beams don't. To me it's backwards. Beams should suffer more drop off than cannons, otherwise a beam could theoretically extend infinitely and still cause damage like the target is close.

    I still prefer DHC escorts because of watching DS9 and honestly not giving a TRIBBLE about maximizing DPS.

    They have a lot of balance issues to fix and haven't touched them for years. Tactical team? It's been OP broken forever. Boarding Party? Nobody uses it mostly because of tactical team. Crew size and anything related to crew? Does anyone even realize that their ships lose crew in a fight? So much needs to be addressed.

    Remove or greatly reduce cannon drop off and it will go a very long way toward "fixing" escorts. BFAW is a laughably OP skill (IMO it should have an accuracy or damage penalty) so much so that escorts are currently better off using beams than DHC.

    Here are my opinions on this mess that's been around for way too long now (I'm only considering DHC):

    - Beam advantage vs cannon should be larger arcs and greater sustained DPS

    - Beam disadvantage vs cannon should be inaccuracy vs small targets like escorts, increased energy requirement compared to cannons, and reduced crit chance vs hull. BFAW should have an accuracy penalty or even better a damage penalty since the beams fire faster and don't remain on the target for as long. That penalty should extend to secondary effects like from disruptors or leech (a .5 second beam should leech nowhere the amount a 2 second beam would)

    Beams should mainly be used by cruisers and capital ships vs other cruisers and capital ships. Accuracy doesn't really matter vs large ships, and greater arcs are required for ships that can't maneuver well. They were never really good vs small, nimble ships. We saw that many times especially in DS9.

    - Cannon advantage vs beam should be greater damage, less energy requirement than beams, and increased crit chance vs hull (a lot of damage concentrated in a single area which we saw many times in DS9)

    - Cannon disadvantage vs beam should be much smaller arcs and a focus on burst damage instead of sustained DPS which requires the escort remain mobile to evade enemy fire and constantly bring the targets into it's firing arc, similar to piloting a fighter plane.

    DHC should always be the best choice for small, nimble ships that can use them. You trade the survivability of a cruiser for the damage of an escort. That's what the Defiant did. It was a warship plain and simple, and there's a reason it used cannons instead of beams.

    We saw this the shows and movies. Beams had a hard time hitting the nimble Defiant, and it's cannons were able to punch through areas of the hull for burst damage causing critical hits.

    STO used to be a lot like how I listed. DHC escorts were DPS kings, cruisers were survivability kings, and science ships were...well, they were there too.
  • happyhappyj0yj0yhappyhappyj0yj0y Member Posts: 699 Arc User
    Oh dear we have lowered ourselves to the lowest denominator "insults"

    Ah yes, because...
    Learn how to fly one rather than TRIBBLE about it needing a buff.

    ... "L2Ping" someone and writing off their concerns as "*****ing" is the most superawesome way to be respectful and have a polite conversation. No trollish flamebaiting there at all.

    Perhaps if you want a civil conversation you should modify your behavior. If you don't, perhaps you shouldn't expect any better. One reaps what one sows after all...
  • lsegnlsegn Member Posts: 594 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    Deleted because the guy above me said it better ^^
    Post edited by lsegn on
  • scarlingscarling Member Posts: 708 Arc User
    I bought some pilot escorts, absolutely no need to fix those sexy things.
  • spyralpegacyonspyralpegacyon Member Posts: 408 Arc User
    Little known fact: Non-Defiant Fed escorts are canonically beamscorts. Akira, Saber, Steamrunner, Prometheus? All armed with beam arrays.

    I use the Everything Is Old CrtD arrays on my Alita. OK, the KCB as well. Still, keeping my Alita's broadside within 2km, and with attack patterns and beam skills synched, is a challenge with a beautiful reward.
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  • stumpfgobsstumpfgobs Member Posts: 297 Arc User
    The thing that breaks escorts is the cannon playstyle in pve.

    Fly at a target and shoot - doesn't really work because you either pass the target and stop doing damage or you stop your ship and lose your defense bonus. The result is what i see in a lot of stfs with cannon ships: They park and just fire.

    Beams on the other hand have a more dynamic playstyle in pve as ships outfitted with arrays can circle a target, keep their speed at full very easy while also keeping the target focused so that all beams hit it.


    The current lag makes this even worse. Having a 3-4 second lagspike during an attack run with a cannon escort? Well, shields are gone, hull is usually deep into the red, some buffs ran out and the sweet spot to attack has already been passed so repositioning is needed to damage at all.
    With a beam cruiser a 3-4 second lagspike usually means, yeeeh, faw wasted half its uptime and the target is 2 or 3 km out of optimal firing range and maybe one shield facing is looking a little sad.


    The new pilot abilities (and the pilot ship moves) do help cannon escorts quite a bit but the playstyle of escorts in pve is still lacking in my opinion. Compared to what a beam boat does with faw, the extra effort to do similar damage with a cannon/torpedo equipped escort/raptor is simply not worth it. On top of it, cannons are just more dependent on a smooth game and with the current all-encompassing lag and jittering they suffer extra.

  • supergirl1611supergirl1611 Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    Oh dear we have lowered ourselves to the lowest denominator "insults"

    Ah yes, because...
    Learn how to fly one rather than TRIBBLE about it needing a buff.

    This comment was a general one aimed at those whiners wanting a buff not 1 individual

    Perhaps if you want a civil conversation you should modify your behavior. If you don't, perhaps you shouldn't expect any better. One reaps what one sows after all...

    Ok heres a less aggressive response than my previous post. Since the Embassy console fix a lot of what i've seen on the forums since is nerf this, nerf that, this thread contains requests to nerf certain aspects of the game from other posters which has peeved me off as i'm enjoying the game as is and certain calls for nerfs is un-ness.

    back on track.

    Escorts do not need a buff to either defence or accuracy. Why ?

    They already gain a built in defence bonus.

    Although available to everyone spending Specialisation points in Pilot has defence generating passive traits

    Accuracy is a personal trait, tactical precision from Undine rep

    They already are fast and nippy, they have the best turn rates in game, again spending in pilot specialisation grants passive movement traits.

    Choosing to use Attack Pattern Omega, immunity to hold and speed/turn rate increase. Other than a couple of exceptions they have access to Omega 3

    Escorts benefit from having the most tactical consoles and commander level tact powers. There are a couple of exceptions to that rule and those exceptions have a hull and shield hp trade off so trade survivability for extra damage.

    Escorts are not the problem.

    Now what is the problem.

    Power drain on cannons and the loss of damage when going outside of 5km range.

    The bloated hit points that came with Delta Rising including a bit later instant shield stripping abilities applied to any NPC using Tachyon beams or even Tetryons.

    The limited firing arc of cannons 90" (This should not change) Having to literateraly point your nose at a target to do high effective damage, where having to turn away outside of that arc massively effects the ships firepower.

    Cannon scatter volley and cannon rapid fire 3 being commander tier maybe they should be moved down to Lt.commander the same as BFAW 3

    The biggest culprit to cannons effectiveness is Delta Risings increased hull and shield hit points for NPC's it highlights the frailities and flaws in using cannons against a high health target where you don't have the survivability to keep your main guns pointed at the target. Poor return from damage over distance, weak shields that get stripped instantly,
    low damage outside or a 90' arc as its only what you have in the aft that is firing, usually turrets/borg cutting beam or even onmi-beams.
    However this could also be seen as making a escort pilot play as an escort is intended, rather than sit and point his cannons and pew pew till dead, he does have to now use hit and run tactics, as he doesn't have the survivability to stand toe to toe with the NPC. which is what escorts were supposed to do. Piloting a cannon escort takes far more skill than using beams.

    Cannons had flaws pre-Delta Rising but they were far more workable with the lower level of NPC health. DR has exposed those flaws but also shown that a limited arc ship without uber killing potential is also a bad build to use. Which is the fault of Cryptic when they designed DR level increase.

    Now if this were Pre-Delta Rising where PvE was back to where it was, would we even have this thread.

    So in closing Escorts themselves are fine. It is cannons and NPC health that is the issue.








    Post edited by supergirl1611 on
  • kyrrokkyrrok Member Posts: 1,352 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    Unfortunately, the arc of most cannons are 45 degrees. I would like very much to have more than one 90 degree DHCon my ship. Unfortunately they only allow one special Wide Arc DHC. It would be nice to cut the down time of the DHC's instead of "P-Pow P-Pow, wait... wait... wait... wait... ah! I finally get to fire them again. P-Pow P-Pow wait... wait... wait..." and around it goes
    Post edited by kyrrok on
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,204 Arc User
    The issue isn't Escorts themselves; They're fine on their own. The issue is Cannon usage. Cryptic tweaks improvements for Canon use, then we may see the things a lot more different than BFAW>ALL
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  • lsegnlsegn Member Posts: 594 Arc User
    The issue isn't Escorts themselves; They're fine on their own. The issue is Cannon usage. Cryptic tweaks improvements for Canon use, then we may see the things a lot more different than BFAW>ALL

    It's a double ended change though, BFAW must be fixed or any change to cannons will still leave all other firing modes worthless.
  • supergirl1611supergirl1611 Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    kyrrok wrote: »
    Unfortunately, the arc of most cannons are 45 degrees. I would like very much to have more than one 90 degree DHC's on my ship. Unfortunately they only allow one special Wide Arc DHC on any ship. It would be nice to cut the down time of the DHC's instead of "P-Pow P-Pow, wait... wait... wait... wait... ah! I finally get to fire them again. P-Pow P-Pow wait... wait... wait..." and around it goes

    Must have hovered over the wrong item
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    The issue isn't Escorts themselves; They're fine on their own. The issue is Cannon usage. Cryptic tweaks improvements for Canon use, then we may see the things a lot more different than BFAW>ALL

    Agreed, an improvement to Cannons would go a long way toward creating more diversity in builds.

    I would like to see them handle it the way they handled Aux2Bat back in the day. If you remember, at one time, A2B was the 'meta,' it was the only thing anyone ran. Instead of nerfing it, they created alternatives. They created other ways to reduce cooldowns, other ways to manage power, they gave other options and eventually the player base migrated away from A2B. No one got nerfed, no one got the build they loved ruined.. if they didn't like the 'new ways' they just stuck with what worked for them.

    I would like to see a similar approach with cannons. Instead of attacking the issue from the side of 'bringing beams down,' do it from the side of 'bringing Cannons up.' Making this change would increase the number of Escorts and Raptors you see in game. People will fly these ships just to try the shiny new Cannon buffs. They should take a good look at not only Cannons, but Turrets as well.
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  • freakiumfreakium Member Posts: 415 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    As a crazy cannon junkie myself, I slotted cannons on my Bortasqu', I think cannons are just fine. If there had to be changes to get things back to normal, the only change I can think of might also be too drastic for beam users.

    This meaning my proposal is to either nerf beam damage, which would result in outrage from beam users for nerfing damage, or buff cannon damage, which would result in outrage from beam users for favouring cannons.

    It's very hard to please everyone, but let's take a look at the shows.

    Beams have always been used by the Federation until the Defiant came along. The Defiant did amazingly because it was the Federation's first foray into pulse weaponry, or cannons. Trek lore states that the Defiant's cannons were powerful because they bottlenecked all that phaser energy and released it in one huge blast. However, the cannons, although powerful, had one flaw and that was range. The pulses of phaser energy would quickly dissipate which is why Sisko would take his ship in close whenever he fired.

    How did Cryptic handle this? To be honest, it was done relatively well. Cannon damage is reduced with range in accordance with the shows. The only difference now is that as a game, the players have the option of stopping their ships effectively acting like a turret. This is something the shows would never do because it looks stupid and well, it is stupid. You're trading defense for damage but you're a sitting duck so it shouldn't be surprising when you blow up for doing it. However with all the heals and resistances flowing around, escorts could get away with it and it became Escorts Online.

    With all the complaining, that's when BFAW got buffed and blew everything out of the water. Now beams were the go to weapons for everything, and the balance was shifted. So how can one possibly change it so that cannons and beams become on par with each other in the long run?

    Hence my proposal earlier. Cannon users can do what they were intended to do in the first place and make passes at the enemy. Beam users can fly at a leisurely pace and fire away to their heart's content. Each pass of the cannon user will equal about the same damage as the beam user leisurely firing away at the target. And if the cannon user decides to act like a sitting duck, the enemy will instantly aggro to it because an easy target is a dead target.

    Of course, saying all this is easy. Coding it is a nightmare. And with all these consoles around adding plasma explosions and leeching energy, someone will always eventually cry NERF!
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  • kyrrokkyrrok Member Posts: 1,352 Arc User
    The problem is there are 3 options. 1.Leave everything as is, leaving BFAW the king and Beam Overload, cannons, and torpedoes to be the jokes of the kingdom. 2. Nerf BFAW, (you think the forums lit up with wrath over the plasma bomb consoles, you ain't seen nuthin') 3. Boost Beam Overload, cannons and torpedoes so they're not a joke anymore.

    I prefer 3
  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 8,401 Arc User
    My idea: fix escorts by fixing cannons.
    Easy way to fix cannons: do both of the following.
    1- Change dual and dual heavy cannons to have the same 90 degree firing arc as dual beams.
    2- Change Cannon Rapid Fire and Cannon Scatter Volley to be Ens-Lt-LtC rank BOFF powers, without changing the stats from current.
  • lsegnlsegn Member Posts: 594 Arc User
    The problem isn't beams it's BFAW, the power was designed in such a way that it is stupidly OP and does everything every other firing mode can do but better. I won't bore you with a list because countless others have done it. I agree that a rapid fire 'Broadside' firing mode is a good idea and should be added while FAW should be constructed in such a way that it does give high DPS when used on groups but sucks against large targets. Maybe you get 67% of your base damage per target and you can affect up to five targets at once. So in this way you would yield higher DPS than any other firing mode but only as long as you are firing into a group.

    The way cool downs are now you could take one AOE and one rapid fire power and simply switch between them as needed in the mission with no downtime no matter which you choose to activate due to global cool downs.
  • koraheaglecrykoraheaglecry Member Posts: 250 Arc User
    lsegn wrote: »
    Didn't people cry that STO was really "Escorts Online" about a year or two ago?

    Yes and now it's Cruisers online, I don't want Escorts to be OP again but I do want them to be balanced. I know that's a tall order but I'm asking it anyway.

    They were never OP. The problem was in the beginning so many cried about how they were being forced to play with others. They wanted to jump into an instance and do it all by themselves. So Cryptic went in and messed with some things. At the same time Science found itself being nuetered thanks to what was going on in PvP and the skill tree was so atrocious there was no means of building an adaptive build, you had to put points into the specific ship type you were flying. Tanks were forced to do the content at a slower pace because all they had at their disposal was BFAW prior to the buff with no means of going on the offensive. It quickly became evident if you couldnt run the content in a specific amount of time you werent going anywhere. And next thing you know it was a DPS race. And since BFAW wasnt the meta weapon of choice back then anything with Cannons was the thing to go with. Because their whole playstyle was based on DPS.

    I wouldnt call Cruisers OP but theyre definitely the current flavor of choice when they have the ability to utilize more weapons, BFAW in its current state, HP Punching Bags as Mobs, and a healthy chunk of HP that acts as a buffer for anyone that might have a slip up in their rotation against cheap one shot mechanics.

    It might have changed recently but last I heard a FPER was still the highest DPS holder in the game.

    Now if Cryptic was to introduce a useful single target ability for beams and return BFAW to a proper AOE ability. You might see Escorts become a little popular again. C:RF is still a formidable single target ability, and is only overshadowed by BFAW because of its ability to rack up decent to above average DPS on multiple targets. Making it look like its doing so much more.
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,204 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    kyrrok wrote: »
    The problem is there are 3 options. 1.Leave everything as is, leaving BFAW the king and Beam Overload, cannons, and torpedoes to be the jokes of the kingdom. 2. Nerf BFAW, (you think the forums lit up with wrath over the plasma bomb consoles, you ain't seen nuthin') 3. Boost Beam Overload, cannons and torpedoes so they're not a joke anymore.

    I prefer 3

    I disagree. You have ONE ability that is clearly overperforming. Not even CSV performs like that, simply due to the pitfalls of using Cannons, period. And on single targets, CRF>CSV. With ONE tactical ability that is clearly, overwhelmingly superior to other tactical weapon abilities, there is one true answer:

    Nerf it.

    ONE ability that has excellent damage, especially combined with Beams and their gentler damage drop off with range. It hits multiple targets. It has excellent uptime. It performs better on single targets than single target abilities which to me is the real kicker.

    CSV, CRF, BO, TS, HYT do not have such huge advantages. Far quicker, simpler to hammer the single nail that sticks out than pull every nail out of the board and try again.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    I disagree. You have ONE ability that is clearly overperforming.

    Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but the statement that FAW is overperforming is extremely subjective.

    In another view, other abilities are simply under performing.

    Not to long ago, the only mods that were considered 'good' on a weapon aside from PEN was CritD. Everything else was considered garbage. By that logic, CritD weapons were over performing. Instead of nerfing it, they instead boosted the DMG mod making it a competitive option. The result is more variation in builds and no one getting hit with the 'nerf bat.' Same when Aux2Bat was king, they could have nerfed that, but instead they provided other options.

    The fact is, people need to stop asking for nerfs. Enough is enough.. they don't like an ability, don't use it. Cryptic should be focusing on adding parity by making other abilities more desirable, not by making the best abilities less desirable.

    The last thing this game needs is more nerfs, especially one that would send the vast majority of the player base into a blind rage. You can have what you want without taking away from everyone else.
    Post edited by seaofsorrows on
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  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,218 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    lsegn wrote: »
    The entire point of an Escort is to use Cannons
    Which is sad, because dual cannons aren't even exclusive to Escorts. Raptors use dual cannons and a cloak. Raiders use dual cannons and usually a cloak in addition to the 'backstabbing' gimmick. Destroyers use dual cannons and are beefier. Warships use dual cannons, are beefier AND with an 8th weapon slot. Battlecruisers can use dual cannons and are a Cruiser subset. Dreadnoughts and Carriers even can use dual cannons. Hell, some Science Vessels can use dual cannons. Warbirds, regardless of career focus can use cannons AND have Warbird gimmicks. Any ship that CAN NOT use dual cannons have their own unique gimmick as well(Cruiser commands for Cruisers, Cruiser commands and a hangar bay for FDCs, Sensor Analysis/subsystem targeting/secondary deflectors for Science Vessels)

    Escorts are effectively the bottom of the food chain. Even if only looking at Tactical-focusing ships.


    Edit: And Cryptic, if ever you give a gimmick to Tactical ships in general, PLEASE do as you have previously done to the standard Cruisers compared to other Cruiser sub-types and give the gimmick to Escorts in larger doses than other Tac ships. They needed it.
  • supergirl1611supergirl1611 Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    I disagree. You have ONE ability that is clearly overperforming.

    Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but the statement that FAW is overperforming is extremely subjective.

    In another view, other abilities are simply under performing.

    Not to long ago, the only mods that were considered 'good' on a weapon aside from PEN was CritD. Everything else was considered garbage. By that logic, CritD weapons were over performing. Instead of nerfing it, they instead boosted the DMG mod making it a competitive option. The result is more variation in builds and no one getting hit with the 'nerf bat.' Same when Aux2Bat was king, they could have nerfed that, but instead they provided other options.

    The fact is, people need to stop asking for nerfs. Enough is enough.. they don't like an ability, don't use it. Cryptic should be focusing on adding parity by making other abilities more desirable, not by making the best abilities less desirable.

    The last thing this game needs is more nerfs, especially one that would send the vast majority of the player base into a blind rage. You can have what you want without taking away from everyone else.

    I agree give everyone what they want, You know Cryptic won't buff cannons but they sure as hell would nerf beams so both weapons types become less desirable rather than buff both and make them both viable.

    However people being people have a tendency to concentrate more on what they don't have and try to take it away from those that do, rather than try to make what they have better (Not all people are like this).
    Happens in all walks of life. Personal example is i once had Supervisor level access on one of my systems at work, This was a benefit to my colleagues as i could do things they couldn't and when a manager wasn't around i could make those changes. What happened ? they thought i had an unfair advantage and i got that benefit removed. So every time they needed a manager who wasn't around to make a tariff change or change contract dates due to errors or add missing discounts due to errors and moaned about it, they got little sympathy from me. (Maybe a bad example but having that access when it was a ratio of 15-1 against a manager and i could help was a benefit to my team as it spared their stats whilst they wondered round looking for someone to do what they needed in a highly aggressive targeted environment). Did i use that system all the time no only when required which would be several times a week.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    orangeitis wrote: »
    Escorts are effectively the bottom of the food chain. Even if only looking at Tactical-focusing ships.

    This is the part of the argument that I'm just not getting. Escorts are every bit as viable as any other ship type, and for Tactically focused builds, they're still the top dogs in damage. Yes, getting that 'top notch damage' means having to build them with beams, but the 'beamscort' is still the hardest hitting build you can find. When it comes to pure damage, Escorts still have superior BoFF setups as well as DPS heavy console setups.

    The real problem is that Cannons aren't on par with Beams. The classic Escort build using Cannons/Turrets has fallen short because of limitations of the weapons themselves (firing arcs, overall damage) and BoFF abilities. The ship class isn't what's fallen behind, it's the weapons. You slap single or dual beams on an escort and you can cut through anything in this game with the greatest of ease.
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  • supergirl1611supergirl1611 Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    People please those that are saying Escorts are bottom of the food chain, this statement is totally untrue, They have the most tactical consoles, access to commander tactical boff abilities, a escort flying with beams will out dps everything, only ship that gives it a run for its money and can sometimes beat it is the tactical version of the Scimitar.

    Cannons weapons are the issue, Poor firing arc, higher level boff tiers than beams, Loss of damage over range (outside 5km). Higher power drain. DHC have a slower firing cycle as well i believe. And due to the firing arc its takes a hell of a lot more piloting skill to use cannons

    If i've missed anything in the mechanics of how either work apologise

    Beams vs cannons AOE

    1. Beam has 250" firing arc
    *Cannon 45" firing arc
    2. Beams can be equipped fore and aft
    *Cannons only fore.
    3.BFAW has a 360' Coverage due to single beam arrays having a 250" firing arc so there are technecally no blind spots if broadsiding a target.
    *Cannons only have a 45" arc so leave a blind spot of 315" if broadsiding a target or outside that 45"
    4. Beams appear to have less weapons drain over cannons
    5. Beams have a slightly better firing cycle also enhanced by the Arbiter Starship mastery trait when activating Emergency power to weapons.
    6. Beams also have Onmi-Directional versions so a Escort flying with beams potentially if using Anti-protons can have 6 beams, 7 with the borg kinetic cutting beam firing forward. Beams out perform turrets.
    7. Beams suffer less damage drop off when outside a 5km range of a target
    8. Broadsiding due to being able to bring every beam to bare on target when broadsiding even without BFAW this is better than 3/4 DHC letting loose with CRF/CSV supported by 3 aft turrets

    How can CSV or CRF compete with a weapon that has a 315" better firing arc. A weapon that with that arc has 7/8 beams all brought to bare on a single target.

    Even if you quadruppled Cannons damage and doubled the up time of CSV and CRF they would still be 2nd best to beams because of that firing arc difference.
    A escort cannot keep its nose on a target all the time it has to turn away due to shield damage or the target moves outside of the firing arc.

    A ship flying cannons is like a fight jet, its totally useless without its nose pointed at its target as all its firepower is concentrated foreword.

    A ship flying beams is akin to a battleship where it can broadside the target and bring all its weapons to bare it has no holes in offensive power.

    Maybe the only thing to look at regarding beams and BFAW is the firing arc and that total coverage it has.

    Now beams are superior to cannons in every way, but that doesn't mean BFAW is over performing this tells me that cannons are under performing and have serious flaws that need addressing.

    Nerfing beams and not touching cannons is not going to help players using cannons. Lets stop looking at how good beams are and try to look for solutions to make cannons a alternative competitive build to beams
    Post edited by supergirl1611 on
  • whitewhale80whitewhale80 Member Posts: 86 Arc User
    I partly agree with the previous comments on Tac Team and BA-FAW, they are just a little skewed and for overall game balance could do with a tweak but that on it's own wont massively realign the escorts place in the world. The games incredibly simple flight mechanics also mean that pilot skill doesn't really matter, especially compared to dedicated space sims with full 360 by 360 flight controls.

    I may see this issue a bit differently as I play as an engineer flying an escort so use trait boosts to massively boost survivability. My suggestions would be-

    Increase the cannon decent damage threshold from 5km to 6km
    Add a power that provides a cover fire feature to turrets, a turret FAW if you will.
    An escort specific mine feature to act as a rear damage capability
  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    Add a power that provides a cover fire feature to turrets, a turret FAW if you will.

    Would actually have negative impact if its implemented as a Tac-BO-Power (even on escorts tacslots are limited) ;)​​
  • whitewhale80whitewhale80 Member Posts: 86 Arc User
    woodwhity wrote: »
    Add a power that provides a cover fire feature to turrets, a turret FAW if you will.

    Would actually have negative impact if its implemented as a Tac-BO-Power (even on escorts tacslots are limited) ;)​​

    Good point, I hadn't actually considered that! Adding it as a character or ship power wouldn't be appreciated by many either as turrets don't get much love as a whole. May have to have a think about how that or other powers could be included...
  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,218 Arc User
    orangeitis wrote: »
    Escorts are effectively the bottom of the food chain. Even if only looking at Tactical-focusing ships.

    This is the part of the argument that I'm just not getting. Escorts are every bit as viable as any other ship type, and for Tactically focused builds, they're still the top dogs in damage. Yes, getting that 'top notch damage' means having to build them with beams, but the 'beamscort' is still the hardest hitting build you can find. When it comes to pure damage, Escorts still have superior BoFF setups as well as DPS heavy console setups.

    The real problem is that Cannons aren't on par with Beams. The classic Escort build using Cannons/Turrets has fallen short because of limitations of the weapons themselves (firing arcs, overall damage) and BoFF abilities. The ship class isn't what's fallen behind, it's the weapons. You slap single or dual beams on an escort and you can cut through anything in this game with the greatest of ease.
    How many Escorts rival the Scimitar now? Or the Nandi? (no seriously, I'm not much of a DEEPS person, I'm curious what the top ships are if not those)

    The Escort ship type seemed to get some decent classes this year, but they don't seem to be the optimal choic.
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