Just to get my money back I wasted on this lagfest of a would-be ST game
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,456Community Moderator
Herald Sphere
Guys... you do know the Weapon ship can't just remove cities or structures. It affects entire planets and races associated with said planets. So any city or location on a planet = whole planet affected. Target Cryptic, and you won't get your money back because you wouldn't have existed to have spent that money in the first place.
Well that's why I wanted to remove it by using it on itself.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Guys... you do know the Weapon ship can't just remove cities or structures. It affects entire planets and races associated with said planets. So any city or location on a planet = whole planet affected. Target Cryptic, and you won't get your money back because you wouldn't have existed to have spent that money in the first place.
During the episode "Year of Hell" annorax states that even a single molecule could be manipulated if the calculation was precise enough.
Sure, that might have been boasting to win Chakotay over but it shows a temporal incursion doesn't HAVE to erase everything on the planet it is fired at.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
basically its correct: if the timeweapon worked, we wont be here. i think we already play in the universe secretly altered until its correct. thats the only explanation i have for all those story-plotholes right now ^^
The Ponies land in oldravenman3025's signature, I don't think that nuke is enough to finish the job :P! (Funniest signature I've seen so far). Seriously speaking, I have no idea, but something small, very small, and likely something related to Hakeev or Taris in recent times considering their roles. But not the individuals themselves.
I won't fire it at all. Last time I checked, genocide was a bad thing, yes?
Would you rather be on the receiving end (of genocide)?
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
That's why I'd only target non-living things such as small but important objects like maybe a gateway or artifacts should simulations indicate a result that doesn't result in notable loss of lives to either side (Heralds do count, at least billions of them exist I assure, and they must exist). Otherwise, targeting the weapon itself is the only other option I see...
If given NO choice but to fire the weapon, I would target not a planet, but an individual--J'mpok. This is actually not a facetious suggestion. If forced to fire, this would permit me to avoid genocide and the punishment of people innocent of the one, problem-causing individual's acts. And however poorly I feel about Klingons, I have to recognize they are NOT all J'mpok.
[DISCLAIMER: Any use of the weapon is a severe risk and carries the potential of deadly unforeseen consequences. I fully acknowledge that there could be some in this scenario, such as if someone even WORSE than J'mpok took his place, hence why I don't really WANT to fire the weapon.]
J'mpok is the cause of the Klingon-Federation War, which in my honest opinion was absolute stupidity on part of the Klinks. The fact is that the Klingons tried this same maneuver prior to the Dominion War, and in my opinion are liable for allowing the Dominion War to be as severe as it was.
Let's look back at the Dominion War for some context. There, the Klingons allowed themselves to be led by the nose by a shapeshifter into a falsely-grounded invasion of Cardassia Prime, overthrowing a potential reformist government there and creating an opening for Gul Dukat to slink into, which as we know, gave the Dominion an Alpha Quadrant beachhead. If not for this, the Dominion would have been forced to invade via a single, much more easily defended bottleneck, than the entire Cardassian Union, AND likely do so against a Federation-Klingon-Cardassian force. The hard fact is the Klingons weren't operating by any sort of rational standard...not even a "reasonable warrior" standard as opposed to a general "reasonable person" standard. When facing a quadrant-wide threat, you do not directly contribute to the further destabilization of the quadrant by infighting--you only weaken yourself before the greater enemy. It's similar to being idiots in the face of the Borg. You DON'T do it.
So let's look at this from the Federation perspective in the runup to the new Klingon-Federation War. Here we have the Klinks repeating the exact same behavior patterns from 2372 that led to such disasters, making claims about shapeshifting infiltrators and clearly acting on a pattern of bloodlust and territorial aggrandizement. Put simply, the Federation has no reason to believe the Klingons' claims about the Undine given that it is accompanied by the exact same pattern as we saw when the Klingons cried wolf in '72. Instead, they are going to become angry and defend themselves--and think what you will about the Federation, but when pushed, they WILL fight back hard. For the Klingons to then insist in "Surface Tension" that the Federation was simply stupid and in denial later is utterly garbage. They should have been intelligent enough to recognize how even an enemy's psychology works (just ask Sun Tzu), if they insist on viewing the Feds that way, and realize that they would accomplish the exact opposite of their ostensible goal of stopping the infiltrators by making the Feds focus solely on the obvious threat in front of their face, which from a Fed perspective is clearly lying or wrong based on past behavior: the Klingons themselves.
The Klingon-Federation War has succeeded in destabilizing the quadrant, which as with the Founders before them, was the goal of the Iconians. We know that even with all of their Heralds, the Iconians fear such an alliance and are not likely to strike under such conditions. Or if they do, they will risk doing so against stronger powers. (And in this I even include the Romulan Republic: without the war, assistance from the Federation and Empire need not result in dividing the Republic against itself.)
With the Federation on board hunting the infiltrators instead of feeling that they must defend against unreasonable and imperialistic Klingons--and if the Federation was approached diplomatically enough times, AND maybe the Klingons considered something like media appeals right to the Federation people to get them stirred up and demanding their government take the threat seriously (this could even be framed in terms of psychological combat against the Federation government by employing Fed citizens as weapons to make their government bend to their will), you now have not just the warfighting but the diplomatic powers of the Federation brought to bear against the Undine. Because that's the thing: the Federation will defend itself where the Undine attack, but they will also attempt negotiation and will eventually discover the same thing we do in the prime timeline: that the Undine were being played by the Iconians. If they successfully defuse the conflict, either convincing the Undine to withdraw their forces or to stand with them against the Iconians, then instead of destabilizing the quadrant as in the prime timeline, the Iconians must now face an extremely dangerous situation: any invasion attempt triggers a two-front (normal and fluidic space) war, immediately.
Let's also remember who J'mpok was responsible for killing: Martok. Removing J'mpok from the timeline stands a great chance of extending Martok's life and thus placing the Klingons under semi-competent leadership more capable of handling this sort of threat without stupidly endangering the entire quadrant. Martok was there during the Dominion War--he took the Chancellorship from Gowron explicitly because of Gowron's stupid, wasteful strategies and inability to work with needed allies. He's probably as close to a Thought Admiral as we've got in the 24th/25th centuries...not Gorkon or Chang smart, but fairly decent. He's pragmatic, he gets it.
By removing J'mpok, I think you either prevent the Iconians from invading because they won't dare risk it against a united front, OR if they DO risk it, the fight will result in more damage on the Iconian side. Multiply this significantly if the J'mpokless universe results in a Fed-Klingon-Romulan-Undine alliance all the way back to 2409. (Though even returning to detente with the Undine is a win.)
Again, I MUST make the disclaimer that this does not work if someone even worse than J'mpok emerges. But if the House of Martok CAN hold on to the Chancellorship, then this option may be the "best" use of the temporal weapon with minimal killing. No option is good. No option would I really endorse. But if forced to name one, this is it.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
That's why I'd only target non-living things such as small but important objects like maybe a gateway or artifacts should simulations indicate a result that doesn't result in notable loss of lives to either side (Heralds do count, at least billions of them exist I assure, and they must exist). Otherwise, targeting the weapon itself is the only other option I see...
A gateway would probably be a brilliant use of the technology. However, correct me if I am wrong but I remember the Obelisk carrier from sphere of influence opening a localized gate to exit near the Jouret System gate. If the gate that allowed the herald sphere to jump from the Andromeda galaxy were removed it would throw a wrench in the Iconians's plans and give the player time to talk to the preservers ect.
Guys... you do know the Weapon ship can't just remove cities or structures. It affects entire planets and races associated with said planets. So any city or location on a planet = whole planet affected. Target Cryptic, and you won't get your money back because you wouldn't have existed to have spent that money in the first place.
Let me see. They hiddne themselves from the heralds in Time in a bottle. They made calculations to only hide a planet and nothing else. What make you think they are not going to be able to just do it with some structures?
Of course the Krenim are the only ones who have the aknowledge to operate that weapon, so any assumptions are really pointless.
Guys... you do know the Weapon ship can't just remove cities or structures. It affects entire planets and races associated with said planets. So any city or location on a planet = whole planet affected. Target Cryptic, and you won't get your money back because you wouldn't have existed to have spent that money in the first place.
During the episode "Year of Hell" annorax states that even a single molecule could be manipulated if the calculation was precise enough.
Sure, that might have been boasting to win Chakotay over but it shows a temporal incursion doesn't HAVE to erase everything on the planet it is fired at.
Thanks...I hadn't remembered the exact line, but this is basically what I was thinking.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Pfft, if my Delta recruit wasn't such a moron, we could have just saved the damn Ancients and the Archive by going THERE first.
We wouldn't even need the damn weapon. Just slingshot around Bepi 113 and leave a message coded into the EMH MK2 onboard the Prometheus to tell the Doctor.
The message would be Prority One for Seven of Nine from Seven of Nine. Describe the events of what happens when she releases the Vaadwaur and she should NOT wake them.
Any reason to NOT build/use that damn weapon is a good one. It didn't work out for Annorax in Year of Hell and its not going to work out for us.
Guys... you do know the Weapon ship can't just remove cities or structures. It affects entire planets and races associated with said planets. So any city or location on a planet = whole planet affected. Target Cryptic, and you won't get your money back because you wouldn't have existed to have spent that money in the first place.
During the episode "Year of Hell" annorax states that even a single molecule could be manipulated if the calculation was precise enough.
Sure, that might have been boasting to win Chakotay over but it shows a temporal incursion doesn't HAVE to erase everything on the planet it is fired at.
Thanks...I hadn't remembered the exact line, but this is basically what I was thinking.
In the pictured example it was used to erase a colony from a planet. So yeah, in theory it could be used to target an Iconian gateway on a planet and remove that gateway from the time stream.
Removing structures as opposed to people is another very interesting option: "for want of a nail, the war was lost," after all. Of course, there could still be unexpected blowback from that, meaning that continues to be an excessively risky proposition. But I DO like the out-of-the-box thinking there.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Removing structures as opposed to people is another very interesting option: "for want of a nail, the war was lost," after all. Of course, there could still be unexpected blowback from that, meaning that continues to be an excessively risky proposition. But I DO like the out-of-the-box thinking there.
Another major issue is the weapon itself existing at all, as long as it does it poses a huge threat of being used by someone who is NOT concerned with just how much damage any use of this weapon can cause- like the Krenim appear to be from their dialouge.
Also Erasing Jm'pok, as much of a jerk he is, would have much more moral issues than erasing the iconians, although practically speaking it would be a better option, although not a good one.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Other-The Borg Cube/Sphere that assimilated Donatra
Romulus would still end up getting hit by the Hobus Nova, but Donatra would likely execute all the Taal'Shiar, and also has the potential to reform the Star Empire into a unified front that could better face the Iconians, rather then having both political sides of a schism fighting each other.
The Herald Sphere is a construct, so eliminating it doesn't necessarily mean a people don't exist... But eliminating it also means the Iconians don't get to bring their entire Armada here... At least, not for another 200,000 years while they build another...
CM
"Equipped with his five senses, man explores the universe around him and calls the adventure science." - Edwin Hubble
Comments
Cirran
What's your beef with Seattle? That's a little too close to my neighborhood anyways.
Just to get my money back I wasted on this lagfest of a would-be ST game
Well that's why I wanted to remove it by using it on itself.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Might as well hit a key strategic target.
During the episode "Year of Hell" annorax states that even a single molecule could be manipulated if the calculation was precise enough.
Sure, that might have been boasting to win Chakotay over but it shows a temporal incursion doesn't HAVE to erase everything on the planet it is fired at.
Would you rather be on the receiving end (of genocide)?
Yes genocide is bad. It's only supported by villains, and internet tough guys.
Well, i will use the weapon on cat haters. If that could be a choice LOL!.
[DISCLAIMER: Any use of the weapon is a severe risk and carries the potential of deadly unforeseen consequences. I fully acknowledge that there could be some in this scenario, such as if someone even WORSE than J'mpok took his place, hence why I don't really WANT to fire the weapon.]
J'mpok is the cause of the Klingon-Federation War, which in my honest opinion was absolute stupidity on part of the Klinks. The fact is that the Klingons tried this same maneuver prior to the Dominion War, and in my opinion are liable for allowing the Dominion War to be as severe as it was.
Let's look back at the Dominion War for some context. There, the Klingons allowed themselves to be led by the nose by a shapeshifter into a falsely-grounded invasion of Cardassia Prime, overthrowing a potential reformist government there and creating an opening for Gul Dukat to slink into, which as we know, gave the Dominion an Alpha Quadrant beachhead. If not for this, the Dominion would have been forced to invade via a single, much more easily defended bottleneck, than the entire Cardassian Union, AND likely do so against a Federation-Klingon-Cardassian force. The hard fact is the Klingons weren't operating by any sort of rational standard...not even a "reasonable warrior" standard as opposed to a general "reasonable person" standard. When facing a quadrant-wide threat, you do not directly contribute to the further destabilization of the quadrant by infighting--you only weaken yourself before the greater enemy. It's similar to being idiots in the face of the Borg. You DON'T do it.
So let's look at this from the Federation perspective in the runup to the new Klingon-Federation War. Here we have the Klinks repeating the exact same behavior patterns from 2372 that led to such disasters, making claims about shapeshifting infiltrators and clearly acting on a pattern of bloodlust and territorial aggrandizement. Put simply, the Federation has no reason to believe the Klingons' claims about the Undine given that it is accompanied by the exact same pattern as we saw when the Klingons cried wolf in '72. Instead, they are going to become angry and defend themselves--and think what you will about the Federation, but when pushed, they WILL fight back hard. For the Klingons to then insist in "Surface Tension" that the Federation was simply stupid and in denial later is utterly garbage. They should have been intelligent enough to recognize how even an enemy's psychology works (just ask Sun Tzu), if they insist on viewing the Feds that way, and realize that they would accomplish the exact opposite of their ostensible goal of stopping the infiltrators by making the Feds focus solely on the obvious threat in front of their face, which from a Fed perspective is clearly lying or wrong based on past behavior: the Klingons themselves.
The Klingon-Federation War has succeeded in destabilizing the quadrant, which as with the Founders before them, was the goal of the Iconians. We know that even with all of their Heralds, the Iconians fear such an alliance and are not likely to strike under such conditions. Or if they do, they will risk doing so against stronger powers. (And in this I even include the Romulan Republic: without the war, assistance from the Federation and Empire need not result in dividing the Republic against itself.)
With the Federation on board hunting the infiltrators instead of feeling that they must defend against unreasonable and imperialistic Klingons--and if the Federation was approached diplomatically enough times, AND maybe the Klingons considered something like media appeals right to the Federation people to get them stirred up and demanding their government take the threat seriously (this could even be framed in terms of psychological combat against the Federation government by employing Fed citizens as weapons to make their government bend to their will), you now have not just the warfighting but the diplomatic powers of the Federation brought to bear against the Undine. Because that's the thing: the Federation will defend itself where the Undine attack, but they will also attempt negotiation and will eventually discover the same thing we do in the prime timeline: that the Undine were being played by the Iconians. If they successfully defuse the conflict, either convincing the Undine to withdraw their forces or to stand with them against the Iconians, then instead of destabilizing the quadrant as in the prime timeline, the Iconians must now face an extremely dangerous situation: any invasion attempt triggers a two-front (normal and fluidic space) war, immediately.
Let's also remember who J'mpok was responsible for killing: Martok. Removing J'mpok from the timeline stands a great chance of extending Martok's life and thus placing the Klingons under semi-competent leadership more capable of handling this sort of threat without stupidly endangering the entire quadrant. Martok was there during the Dominion War--he took the Chancellorship from Gowron explicitly because of Gowron's stupid, wasteful strategies and inability to work with needed allies. He's probably as close to a Thought Admiral as we've got in the 24th/25th centuries...not Gorkon or Chang smart, but fairly decent. He's pragmatic, he gets it.
By removing J'mpok, I think you either prevent the Iconians from invading because they won't dare risk it against a united front, OR if they DO risk it, the fight will result in more damage on the Iconian side. Multiply this significantly if the J'mpokless universe results in a Fed-Klingon-Romulan-Undine alliance all the way back to 2409. (Though even returning to detente with the Undine is a win.)
Again, I MUST make the disclaimer that this does not work if someone even worse than J'mpok emerges. But if the House of Martok CAN hold on to the Chancellorship, then this option may be the "best" use of the temporal weapon with minimal killing. No option is good. No option would I really endorse. But if forced to name one, this is it.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
A gateway would probably be a brilliant use of the technology. However, correct me if I am wrong but I remember the Obelisk carrier from sphere of influence opening a localized gate to exit near the Jouret System gate. If the gate that allowed the herald sphere to jump from the Andromeda galaxy were removed it would throw a wrench in the Iconians's plans and give the player time to talk to the preservers ect.
Let me see. They hiddne themselves from the heralds in Time in a bottle. They made calculations to only hide a planet and nothing else. What make you think they are not going to be able to just do it with some structures?
Of course the Krenim are the only ones who have the aknowledge to operate that weapon, so any assumptions are really pointless.
Thanks...I hadn't remembered the exact line, but this is basically what I was thinking.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
But everything end up being reversed by the end of the next mission at the latest so...
We wouldn't even need the damn weapon. Just slingshot around Bepi 113 and leave a message coded into the EMH MK2 onboard the Prometheus to tell the Doctor.
The message would be Prority One for Seven of Nine from Seven of Nine. Describe the events of what happens when she releases the Vaadwaur and she should NOT wake them.
Any reason to NOT build/use that damn weapon is a good one. It didn't work out for Annorax in Year of Hell and its not going to work out for us.
In the pictured example it was used to erase a colony from a planet. So yeah, in theory it could be used to target an Iconian gateway on a planet and remove that gateway from the time stream.
My character Tsin'xing
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Another major issue is the weapon itself existing at all, as long as it does it poses a huge threat of being used by someone who is NOT concerned with just how much damage any use of this weapon can cause- like the Krenim appear to be from their dialouge.
Also Erasing Jm'pok, as much of a jerk he is, would have much more moral issues than erasing the iconians, although practically speaking it would be a better option, although not a good one.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Romulus would still end up getting hit by the Hobus Nova, but Donatra would likely execute all the Taal'Shiar, and also has the potential to reform the Star Empire into a unified front that could better face the Iconians, rather then having both political sides of a schism fighting each other.
The Herald Sphere is a construct, so eliminating it doesn't necessarily mean a people don't exist... But eliminating it also means the Iconians don't get to bring their entire Armada here... At least, not for another 200,000 years while they build another...
CM