FAW, TS not affected by Weapon Rarity or [Dmg] mods

jarvisandalfred · June 2015

(Note - I have tested, and this does not affect CSV, CRF, THY, BO, SS, or Suppression Barrage; and it's difficult to tell with RRtW which also appears not affected)

Basically an update on this thread here.

The dead giveaway is when you have a common weapon, a weapon with a mod other than [Dmg], and a weapon with a [Dmg] mod - hit FAW or TS, and they all display the same damage, but the +10% accuracy stays on that weapon. There's other ways to get at that info, but that's basically what you'll see.

jarvisandalfred · June 2015

As a side effect of this, the Epic mod for beams is nearly worthless in PvE.

Dmg, already not amazing, now only applies at all outside of FAW.

The bonus damage from the Accuracy modifier, likewise, doesn't apply during FAW.

The accuracy overflow doesn't work to the secondary targets during FAW.

So what does work is accuracy overflow, bonus damage from rarity, and Dmg outside of FAW, and accuracy overflow to the primary target only during FAW.

When the epic modifier on beams is worse than a different standard modifier at every point I've run for a level 50+ player, it's pretty disappointing.

darkknightucf · June 2015

Another excellent find! Good work.

sf911 · June 2015

Very interesting. Great work as usual.

Cryptic should hire you

I hope the devs will address these issues sooner rather than later.

It's rather depressing to own (partially) broken weapons.

jarvisandalfred · June 2015

sf911 wrote: »

Very interesting. Great work as usual.

Cryptic should hire you

I hope the devs will address these issues sooner rather than later.

It's rather depressing to own (partially) broken weapons.

darkknightucf wrote: »

Another excellent find! Good work.

Thank you both. To me, the really saddening part of this is where there's circumstances in which CrtD is twice as strong of a damage buff as the Epic Mod, and that that occurs for a fairly significant amount of players.

martakurill · June 2015

sf911 wrote: »

Very interesting. Great work as usual.

Cryptic should hire you

I hope the devs will address these issues sooner rather than later.

It's rather depressing to own (partially) broken weapons.

Agreed on all of these points. This is incredibly irritating to find out, and just further increases the disparity in mod value...

thissler · June 2015

jarvisandalfred wrote: »

Thank you both. To me, the really saddening part of this is where there's circumstances in which CrtD is twice as strong of a damage buff as the Epic Mod, and that that occurs for a fairly significant amount of players.

Why does math make you sad?

Here's a thought bro, drop ALL of your Crit H and Acc. That should devalue Crit D and make that epic mod feel epic again! Damn dawg, even Dmg will feel strong at that point.

Thank you for your obvious but misleading points.

EDIT: I was going to leave out the bit about you ripping off other peoples work, but I changed my mind. Nice job ripping off other peoples work and staking that claim brah! Not unusual for you though is it?

jarvisandalfred · June 2015

thissler wrote: »

Why does math make you sad?

Here's a thought bro, drop ALL of your Crit H and Acc. That should devalue Crit D and make that epic mod feel epic again! Damn dawg, even Dmg will feel strong at that point.

Thank you for your obvious but misleading points.

EDIT: I was going to leave out the bit about you ripping off other peoples work, but I changed my mind. Nice job ripping off other peoples work and staking that claim brah! Not unusual for you though is it?

Math doesn't make me sad. Bugs that devalue things that should be rewarding makes me sad.

And would you care to share who's work I'm ripping off? I do my own work and cite my sources.

borticuscryptic · July 2015

It was very quick to verify that your bug report is incorrect. I have to commend you for testing, and sympathize that you don't have access to the tools we have internally. Mainly one that removes all damage variance.

Here's how I tested:

Gave myself two Beam Arrays:
1) Mk 10 White
2) Mk 10 Purple [Dmg]x3

Gave myself FAW 3.

Set up 2 targets within 2km (no distance variance) and fired on them.

TEST 1 = No FAW
1) White Beam dealt 400 damage per hit
2) Purple Beam dealt 437 damage per hit

TEST 2 = FAW 3
1) White Beam dealt 448 damage per hit
2) Purple Beam dealt 490 damage per hit

Excuse the poor MS Paint skills = http://imgur.com/TDJwLHV

Unless I'm misunderstanding the report, both beams should've dealt the exact same damage in TEST 2. Anything you think I might've overlooked?

enkemen · July 2015

Doesn't the number of modifiers a weapon has affect damage? Might want to try a Purple [CrtD]x3 vs. a [Dmg]x3, and just ignore criticals...

jarvisandalfred · July 2015

borticuscryptic wrote: »

It was very quick to verify that your bug report is incorrect. I have to commend you for testing, and sympathize that you don't have access to the tools we have internally. Mainly one that removes all damage variance.

Here's how I tested:

Gave myself two Beam Arrays:
1) Mk 10 White
2) Mk 10 Purple [Dmg]x3

Gave myself FAW 3.

Set up 2 targets within 2km (no distance variance) and fired on them.

TEST 1 = No FAW
1) White Beam dealt 400 damage per hit
2) Purple Beam dealt 437 damage per hit

TEST 2 = FAW 3
1) White Beam dealt 448 damage per hit
2) Purple Beam dealt 490 damage per hit

Excuse the poor MS Paint skills = http://imgur.com/TDJwLHV

Unless I'm misunderstanding the report, both beams should've dealt the exact same damage in TEST 2. Anything you think I might've overlooked?

Man, I'd love to have access to some of those tools. Give me an hour to parse this out again (to attempt to remove damage variance), to see what this could be.

If you're right, this is a weapon tooltip bug, because your test looks fairly straightforward.

borticuscryptic · July 2015

enkemen wrote: »

Doesn't the number of modifiers a weapon has affect damage? Might want to try a Purple [CrtD]x3 vs. a [Dmg]x3, and just ignore criticals...

Sure. Just to be thorough. Same test, same variables.

TEST 1 = No FAW
1) White Beam dealt 400 damage per hit
2) Purple Beam dealt 415 damage per hit

TEST 2 = FAW 3
1) White Beam dealt 448 damage per hit
2) Purple Beam dealt 465 damage per hit

Looks like the quality-associated damage is still being applied.

http://imgur.com/MEWb6sS

jarvisandalfred · July 2015

borticuscryptic wrote: »

enkemen wrote: »

Doesn't the number of modifiers a weapon has affect damage? Might want to try a Purple [CrtD]x3 vs. a [Dmg]x3, and just ignore criticals...

Sure. Just to be thorough. Same test, same variables.

TEST 1 = No FAW
1) White Beam dealt 400 damage per hit
2) Purple Beam dealt 415 damage per hit

TEST 2 = FAW 3
1) White Beam dealt 448 damage per hit
2) Purple Beam dealt 465 damage per hit

Looks like the quality-associated damage is still being applied.

http://imgur.com/MEWb6sS

My test scenario looked like this:

Me with one weapon equipped, and no other gear/traits/skills affecting energy weapons, shooting at an unshielded ship that was 0.0km away. I had weapons power at exactly 50, and activated FAW1 on cooldown. The two weapons in question are MK II Antiproton Beam Arrays, and I did 30 minute long tests with each weapon. Looking at only FAW non-critical shots, here were my results:

Average Damage per hit of the Dmgx3 weapon:90.8376
Average Damage per hit of the CrtDx3 weapon:88.4092
(note - this is a 2.74% difference)

Now, that does show a boost during FAW to the Dmgx3 weapon. It's just nowhere near 9%.

My takeaway? [Dmg] does work during FAW, but the state of [Dmg] on Tribble isn't what it was described to me as.

In addition, the tooltips reflect a similar issue:

The Dmgx3 Beam has a tooltip of 131.5, and the CrtDx3 has a tooltip of 127.9 - coincidentally, a 2.81% difference, or very nearly what I parsed out things at.

I can understand the CrtDx3 Beam: At 50 weapons power (50/50 multiplier), the number comes from 100 (base) +8.2( MK I) +10.2 (MK II) +7.5 (Rarity) +2 (Accolade).

But if I apply what it should be to the Dmgx3: SUM(100 (base) +8.2( MK I) +10.2 (MK II) +7.5 (Rarity) +2 (Accolade)) times 1.09=139.411, rounded to 139.4, which is not what I'm seeing.

At this point, do you want me to make a new thread about the [Dmg] mod?

Link to CrtDx3 Parse

Link to Dmgx3 Parse

borticuscryptic · July 2015

Yeah, it's looking like the new math might not be playing well with tooltips. We're investigating that.

virusdancer · July 2015

Er, just to toss something in here from out there and elsewhere...Bort, did you guys check FAW1? Cause back in the day, it was FAW1 (no), FAW2 (yes), and FAW3 (yes). Though, that was in regard to Rarity and not [Dmg] mods.

Common Array Mk X w/FAW1 vs. Uncommon Array Mk X [Acc] w/FAW1 sort of thing...and not seeing the 2.5% strength increase (damage would be the same for the Common and Uncommon); though the increase would be visible (tooltip-wise) with FAW2 and FAW3 with the Uncommon being higher than the Common.

jarvisandalfred · July 2015

borticuscryptic wrote: »

Yeah, it's looking like the new math might not be playing well with tooltips. We're investigating that.

I don't believe it's a tooltip issue, since my 30 minute parse reflects nearly the exact same damage between weapons that my tooltips do.

The Dmg/Rarity issue might be a tooltip issue, since Dmg was applying the same bonus during FAW as outside of it, relative to the other weapon, but the actual functionality is something I'm questioning.

virusdancer wrote: »

Er, just to toss something in here from out there and elsewhere...Bort, did you guys check FAW1? Cause back in the day, it was FAW1 (no), FAW2 (yes), and FAW3 (yes). Though, that was in regard to Rarity and not [Dmg] mods.

Common Array Mk X w/FAW1 vs. Uncommon Array Mk X [Acc] w/FAW1 sort of thing...and not seeing the 2.5% strength increase (damage would be the same for the Common and Uncommon); though the increase would be visible (tooltip-wise) with FAW2 and FAW3 with the Uncommon being higher than the Common.

Also something to look into, I've done my parses with just FAW1. Thanks for the insight!

jarvisandalfred · July 2015

borticuscryptic wrote: »

/snip:
1) Mk 10 White
2) Mk 10 Purple [Dmg]x3

TEST 1 = No FAW
1) White Beam dealt 400 damage per hit
2) Purple Beam dealt 437 damage per hit

TEST 2 = FAW 3
1) White Beam dealt 448 damage per hit
2) Purple Beam dealt 490 damage per hit

Hold the phone. Did Damage lose it's bonus damage from rarity?

My math tells me that 437/400=1.0925, and the difference between that and 1.03^3 (which is 9.272727...) is probably insignificant.

But if Dmg had it's bonus damage from rarity here (the innate 2.5% each mod should get), we'd be seeing something more along the lines of a 13.33% difference.

If this is the case, suddenly my testing suggests it's working as intended. Revised explanation of my test:

MK II AP Arrays: 100 base damage, 2% for accolade, 8.2% for MK I, 10.2% for MK II

The CrtDx3 gets 7.5% for rarity, leading it's damage to be 127.9 without any other buffs (the condition of my test)

The Dmgx3 does not get that, but gets a final 1.03^3 multiplier, which gets me to 120.4 times 1.03^3, which is 131.5643

The difference between those two is ~2.865%, which very, very nearly matches the 2.74% that the test showed me and is exactly the numbers shown in the tooltips.

This shows Dmg as being very poor, because I haven't stacked the cat 1's to make the damage from rarity insignificant, because I'm using MK II weapons and no tac consoles or etc.

This also explains quite well the difference between my results and Snipey's results, since he was using MK XIV weapons and tac consoles.

Unless you intend for Dmg to also get the 2.5% cat 1 bonus from rarity, I currently do not see any bugs with it's state on tribble, and my test showed it working fine during FAW. If that's what you intend, you can close this thread, if not, then that's my bug report.

jarvisandalfred · July 2015

Because the above is a bit rambling, here's my summary of what I'm seeing on tribble:

Rarity/Dmg not applying during FAW is a tooltip issue
[Dmg] applies a 3% final boost, but does not get the 2.5% cat 1 from rarity
[Dmg] is calculating tooltips correctly, outside of FAW.

robothitchhiker · July 2015

To reflect jarvisandalfred, 400*1.03^3 = 437.0908, so Bort's test is fine if there is no quality bonus.

Purple quality otherwise seems to add 3x1.25% (for a 1.0375 multiplier) as presumably "Cat 1" (415/400 = 1.0375, from Bort's test).

So if quality should apply with 3% Dmg, it should be 400*1.0375*(1.03^3) = 453.48 for a Mk 10 [Dmg]x3 versus a white (the 13.33% mentioned above).

Personally, I think quality damage boosts should still apply for consistency purposes (because exceptions are weird for future-proofing), but then again the new Dmg modifier is already a big exception to the existing modifier system... *shrug*.

Maybe this should thread should fork to Tribble bug (maybe) reports...

jarvisandalfred · July 2015

robothitchhiker wrote: »

To reflect jarvisandalfred, 400*1.03^3 = 437.0908, so Bort's test is fine if there is no quality bonus.

Purple quality otherwise seems to add 3x1.25% (for a 1.0375 multiplier) as presumably "Cat 1" (415/400 = 1.0375, from Bort's test).

So if quality should apply with 3% Dmg, it should be 400*1.0375*(1.03^3) = 453.48 for a Mk 10 [Dmg]x3 versus a white (the 13.33% mentioned above).

Personally, I think quality damage boosts should still apply for consistency purposes (because exceptions are weird for future-proofing), but then again the new Dmg modifier is already a big exception to the existing modifier system... *shrug*.

Maybe this should thread should fork to Tribble bug (maybe) reports...

I can explain the whole quality one, because quality is 2.5%. If he's comparing MK X weapons, like with the first test, the numbers go like this:

MK X common:100 (base) +8.2(MK I) +10.2*9(MK II-X)=200
MK X VR:100 (base) +8.2(MK I) +10.2*9(MK II-X)+2.5*3 (rarity)=207.5

He's at 100 weapons power, so these numbers are doubled, to get the 400 and 415 in question.

I mean, that is full of a few assumptions (100 weapons power, no skill points, no damage accolade, and still MK X weapons), but it explains things perfectly fine.

robothitchhiker · July 2015

Got it, thanks!

FAW, TS not affected by Weapon Rarity or [Dmg] mods

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