Here are some "basic" ideas for PvP seperation that keeps it simple:
Universa Consoles
Universal Ship Consoles are already "Gold" items, so they act accordingly. Each console can act as one of the "standad" science, engineering or tactical console depending on where you slot it, in the golden Mark XIV variant.
Starship Mastery Traits
Each starship mastery trait slotted in PvP acts like a single extra standard Mark X console. Which console depends on the trait.
Set Items and Bonuses
All set bonuses are replaced with the boost equivalent of a single Mark V console. Which bonus depends on the set.
All special abilities related to the items are replaced with the standard repertoire of traits for that item.
Overall that makes all these benefits a lot more boring, but also better controlled in usefulness, and avoids any special effects that might be problematic.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
#1) I want PvE to be more like PvP. The closer the two are, the easier it would be to balance things. Also, it would lead to greater build diversity and challenge since the player would have to deal with more from the NPCs.
[...]
there it is. and in conclusion i would go so far to say, that the most healthiest thing for this game could be to get balanced around pvp.
it's so easy: if the game got balanced around pvp the pve gameplay would have to become much more challenging in terms of ai. that not necessarily would mean the introduction of more and more powercreep, but could strenghten the necessity to l2p.
in combo with some decent tutorials which teach certain synergies that could lead to a longtime appealing gaming experience and in the end to successful pve-pugs lol....
tbh: to me it's totally not understandable how one would do it the other way round as long as both parts are in the game.
hmmm... only wrote half of what i think about it, but my coffeemug just appeals me more right now .
What is "separated PvP" even supposed to mean? The game should be balanced and work in such a way that you can fight NPCs and players alike, if you choose to do so. PvP should be optional (limited to scenarios and maps) but anything else is nonsense. The game itself is a mess, not PvP or PvE alone.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Years ago (when I PvPed), I said many times that Cryptic should have a PvE value and a PvP value for powers and abilities. That way if a power was too good for PvP, you tone down that value and not affecting PvE. A great example of this was Science in the original launch, where it was just too good, but it was nerfed so bad that it honestly still never recovered. However, the way the OP appears to word his argument, it seems he wants a completely separate system, which it's too far late for it to work.
Right now, the best thing (and the simplest) that Cryptic could do is to create a PvP Vanilla mode. No Universal Consoles, no Traits, no Specializations, no Buffs. Just straight up old-school Trek battles.
Oh I dunno. I prefer the developers making sensible decisions over just removing an aspect of the game. It's spurious to make claims that just because something is fun to use for PVE it doesn't need to be a balanced. Outlying abilities are what they are; indicators of poor design.
Generally I find the PVE crowd to be a year or so behind the PVP bunch in picking out abilities that combine to far outstrip the original intent. So I suppose that by eliminating those players you could make the argument that the possibility exists that the frequency and magnitude of mechanic exploitation would plummet.
You know, I'm not sure about FAW though. Without all the CD compression and the rather sad resistance mechanic, FAW wouldn't be where it is today. It has a lot of little helpers. I only say this to make the point that the developers are perfectly capable of making bad decisions with or without the assistance of the players.
I picked removal simply becase i don't use it and I think the resources that go into can be used to add more additional content. PVP is less about sill and more about who has the best "set up " . Not only that but its my perception that a number of PVE abilities and items have gotten Nerfed because of pvp. ( no i don't have specific examples just going off what i remember in the last few years.)
There's literally no PvP content that has been developed. They tried something for like 15 minutes once, gave up on it, and pretend like they never even did that.
P2W has definitely taken it's toll on PvP, but player skill reigns supreme, far more than in PvE. That's why you see people who roll in their shiny new Fleet T6 ships get all huffy and uppity when a T5 or T5U lays the beatdown on them.
The most recent examples of PvP getting things "nerfed" are Surgical Strikes and Ionic Turbulence. Except Surgical Strikes was corrected, by the Devs, because they found it to be overperforming in their own internal testing. People screamed bloody murder that Ionic Turbulence was "useless" after the horrible PvPers "got it nerfed to oblivion", but then we also see so many people that cried that even the "nerfed" version was OP and too difficult to overcome in PvE once the Herald starting using it.
We all know that a lot of skills, ships and items are useless in PvE but can be overpowered in PvP at the same time (universal consoles for example). If cryptic seperated both modes, they could easily balance both in different ways resulting in a lot of new possible strategies and builds in any game mode.
People are without a doubt going to hate me for saying this, but would this really be in the best interest of the whole STO community?
This game gets new content and bug fixes (though the latter sometimes in a horribly slow pace) because the development team can make a profit.
Implementing a new mechanic for separation of PVE/PVP would do nothing bolster game play in STF nor would it be sufficient to revive a community which is even dwarfed by the klingon faction in the game (PVP).
So is a development which will only result in losses in time and money without something significant to show for it really the best thing for STO?
Don't get me wrong, i have sympathy for the proposal, but i don't think it's a smart move.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
Definitely- e.g. weapon modifiers like CrtD are pretty much essential in PvE, while CrtH is what you want in PvP.
More significantly, PvE and PvP require very different traits and skill point allocation. At the moment you can only optimise for one or the other, not both.
I would simply be happy with a decent match making system. Half the problem getting new people into PvP is when they queue up they have a better than average chance to be pugstomped and sent running with their tail between their legs, dying so quickly they can't even sort out what is happening to them.
But... the numbers seem to have just gone out of control. If they don't do something to keep people more in line with one another, PvP will just die.
Is it "fair" to the people who have kitted out? Probably not, but if something isn't done all that work is going to be for nothing anyway. Who cares how geared to kill you are if you can't find anybody willing to be shot at.
Learned that lesson the hard way. It got to where pre-DR not only would my fleetmates not fight me in my Fleet Gal-X anymore, they were actively forming up in secret to practice ways to try and take me down... For the small about of pride I got when I first found that out, discovering that I no longer had people to play with was far, far worse in the end.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
We all know that a lot of skills, ships and items are useless in PvE but can be overpowered in PvP at the same time (universal consoles for example). If cryptic seperated both modes, they could easily balance both in different ways resulting in a lot of new possible strategies and builds in any game mode.
People are without a doubt going to hate me for saying this, but would this really be in the best interest of the whole STO community?
This game gets new content and bug fixes (though the latter sometimes in a horribly slow pace) because the development team can make a profit.
Implementing a new mechanic for separation of PVE/PVP would do nothing bolster game play in STF nor would it be sufficient to revive a community which is even dwarfed by the klingon faction in the game (PVP).
So is a development which will only result in losses in time and money without something significant to show for it really the best thing for STO?
Don't get me wrong, i have sympathy for the proposal, but i don't think it's a smart move.
Once you get tired of stomping STFs, there is nowhere else to go. PvP is deep endgame. Even I can only smack the same AI so many times in a row before my eyes bleed.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
The whole point of pvp in MMOs is to get better gear than the other guy and smash him. Without that, it's not worth doing.
PvP isn't supposed to be two people sitting next to each other, holding hands, and crying.
This is one of the big reasons no one plays anymore. The power divide between players, and some badly exploited mechanics have removed the population. Matchmaking could still solve most of this problem, at least on the competitive match side, but there's not enough pop for this to work. I'd rather see the game balanced as a whole, but DR went soooooo far with creep and power gaps.
They've already got most of this built. Separate, balance, charge for a small amount of power ala World of Tanks ( but keep it manageable), and introduce it as a feature. Make money. So little extra work for an incentive to buy more ships. As long as it's competitive folks will play.
The whole point of pvp in MMOs is to get better gear than the other guy and smash him. Without that, it's not worth doing.
STO's PvP, when it was still more popular than it's now (but it was never very popular), wasn't about that.
It was about being better at teamwork and devising better tactics and counter-tactics, and applying them better than the enemy.
A simple numerical contest is boring and meaningless.
But you may not be wrong - maybe that is typical for MMOs. It's most likely not typical for other types of games, say, FPS - because there is usualy no gear levelling in such games.
That may have been part of what made STO's PvP so interesting - it wasn't hard to get competitive gear and the right BOFF skills. It was hard to learn the tactics and to apply them well.
But now, you have to wade through univeral consles, fleet gear, reputation gear, C-Store or lockbox ships, to really start getting competitive.
And it's still hard to laern the tactics and apply them well, so it will seem unsourmantable to many.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
sry, but i really feel the need to drop a "lulz" on those 21% voting for removal (and may for the option itself, but on that i first gotta think about ...).
no matter the state of pvp in here, why dh u guys fight something that doesn't bother u at all?! because of "pvp-nerfings" and the overwhelming crowd of pvp'ers invading the forums and fight for nerfs?! well, if so i can assure u, u kinda still live like in the 60's lmao... "fight communis, oops..... pvp!"
kkbbthx*sigh*
I always thought abilities and gear shoudl have two sets of valuies that are linked to how they work in pve content, or pvp content. So a consule/weapon/ability would have one value set that determines how it will work an function in pve, and then one value set for pvp content, since things almost new function an are used the same in both forms of content. This also gets rid of any need for content specific stats to adjust values at all. THis also means that a ship that is very strong or op in pvp could be adjusted solely in pvp stat values to get it back sloser inline again. THis also gives free raign for the devs to balance an nerf/buff thigns without worry of the backlash to pve players and thier content.
The whole point of pvp in MMOs is to get better gear than the other guy and smash him. Without that, it's not worth doing.
PvP isn't supposed to be two people sitting next to each other, holding hands, and crying.
That is definitely not what PVP is about, and exactly that is what exists in STO right now because of the utter lack of attention to balance and power creep. When it is just about who has better gear, that PVP is definitely not worth doing.
The whole point of pvp in MMOs is to get better gear than the other guy and smash him. Without that, it's not worth doing.
PvP isn't supposed to be two people sitting next to each other, holding hands, and crying.
Ow, you are sooo wrong lol.
If that is pvp for you, you can do it right now without any excuses. Just go to a pvp instance, and in 2 seconds you will have your own smash and boom.
PVP is about proving YOURSELF that you have skills and abilities to destroy another human player in the same circunstances, because you have more skills than him (i mean piloting skills, for example). You cant do that when the power creep is so stupidly bad that you dont have even time to do anything at all. Not even show your pvp opponent that you are better skilled than him and you are a great pilot.
Comments
Universa Consoles
Universal Ship Consoles are already "Gold" items, so they act accordingly. Each console can act as one of the "standad" science, engineering or tactical console depending on where you slot it, in the golden Mark XIV variant.
Starship Mastery Traits
Each starship mastery trait slotted in PvP acts like a single extra standard Mark X console. Which console depends on the trait.
Set Items and Bonuses
All set bonuses are replaced with the boost equivalent of a single Mark V console. Which bonus depends on the set.
All special abilities related to the items are replaced with the standard repertoire of traits for that item.
Overall that makes all these benefits a lot more boring, but also better controlled in usefulness, and avoids any special effects that might be problematic.
there it is. and in conclusion i would go so far to say, that the most healthiest thing for this game could be to get balanced around pvp.
it's so easy: if the game got balanced around pvp the pve gameplay would have to become much more challenging in terms of ai. that not necessarily would mean the introduction of more and more powercreep, but could strenghten the necessity to l2p.
in combo with some decent tutorials which teach certain synergies that could lead to a longtime appealing gaming experience and in the end to successful pve-pugs lol....
tbh: to me it's totally not understandable how one would do it the other way round as long as both parts are in the game.
hmmm... only wrote half of what i think about it, but my coffeemug just appeals me more right now
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Years ago (when I PvPed), I said many times that Cryptic should have a PvE value and a PvP value for powers and abilities. That way if a power was too good for PvP, you tone down that value and not affecting PvE. A great example of this was Science in the original launch, where it was just too good, but it was nerfed so bad that it honestly still never recovered. However, the way the OP appears to word his argument, it seems he wants a completely separate system, which it's too far late for it to work.
Right now, the best thing (and the simplest) that Cryptic could do is to create a PvP Vanilla mode. No Universal Consoles, no Traits, no Specializations, no Buffs. Just straight up old-school Trek battles.
http://steamcharts.com/app/9900#7d 1000 people mmo LOL
Generally I find the PVE crowd to be a year or so behind the PVP bunch in picking out abilities that combine to far outstrip the original intent. So I suppose that by eliminating those players you could make the argument that the possibility exists that the frequency and magnitude of mechanic exploitation would plummet.
You know, I'm not sure about FAW though. Without all the CD compression and the rather sad resistance mechanic, FAW wouldn't be where it is today. It has a lot of little helpers. I only say this to make the point that the developers are perfectly capable of making bad decisions with or without the assistance of the players.
Good times .
as we all know Arc is more popular than steam lol
last 2 people left in this game will say "game is fine" to eachother lol
People are without a doubt going to hate me for saying this, but would this really be in the best interest of the whole STO community?
This game gets new content and bug fixes (though the latter sometimes in a horribly slow pace) because the development team can make a profit.
Implementing a new mechanic for separation of PVE/PVP would do nothing bolster game play in STF nor would it be sufficient to revive a community which is even dwarfed by the klingon faction in the game (PVP).
So is a development which will only result in losses in time and money without something significant to show for it really the best thing for STO?
Don't get me wrong, i have sympathy for the proposal, but i don't think it's a smart move.
More significantly, PvE and PvP require very different traits and skill point allocation. At the moment you can only optimise for one or the other, not both.
But... the numbers seem to have just gone out of control. If they don't do something to keep people more in line with one another, PvP will just die.
Is it "fair" to the people who have kitted out? Probably not, but if something isn't done all that work is going to be for nothing anyway. Who cares how geared to kill you are if you can't find anybody willing to be shot at.
Learned that lesson the hard way. It got to where pre-DR not only would my fleetmates not fight me in my Fleet Gal-X anymore, they were actively forming up in secret to practice ways to try and take me down... For the small about of pride I got when I first found that out, discovering that I no longer had people to play with was far, far worse in the end.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Once you get tired of stomping STFs, there is nowhere else to go. PvP is deep endgame. Even I can only smack the same AI so many times in a row before my eyes bleed.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
This is one of the big reasons no one plays anymore. The power divide between players, and some badly exploited mechanics have removed the population. Matchmaking could still solve most of this problem, at least on the competitive match side, but there's not enough pop for this to work. I'd rather see the game balanced as a whole, but DR went soooooo far with creep and power gaps.
They've already got most of this built. Separate, balance, charge for a small amount of power ala World of Tanks ( but keep it manageable), and introduce it as a feature. Make money. So little extra work for an incentive to buy more ships. As long as it's competitive folks will play.
STO's PvP, when it was still more popular than it's now (but it was never very popular), wasn't about that.
It was about being better at teamwork and devising better tactics and counter-tactics, and applying them better than the enemy.
A simple numerical contest is boring and meaningless.
But you may not be wrong - maybe that is typical for MMOs. It's most likely not typical for other types of games, say, FPS - because there is usualy no gear levelling in such games.
That may have been part of what made STO's PvP so interesting - it wasn't hard to get competitive gear and the right BOFF skills. It was hard to learn the tactics and to apply them well.
But now, you have to wade through univeral consles, fleet gear, reputation gear, C-Store or lockbox ships, to really start getting competitive.
And it's still hard to laern the tactics and apply them well, so it will seem unsourmantable to many.
LMFAO +1
no matter the state of pvp in here, why dh u guys fight something that doesn't bother u at all?! because of "pvp-nerfings" and the overwhelming crowd of pvp'ers invading the forums and fight for nerfs?! well, if so i can assure u, u kinda still live like in the 60's lmao... "fight communis, oops..... pvp!"
kkbbthx*sigh*
Then all the vocal minority pvp whining won't disproportionately impact on pve fun.
I also want less polls. :P
That is definitely not what PVP is about, and exactly that is what exists in STO right now because of the utter lack of attention to balance and power creep. When it is just about who has better gear, that PVP is definitely not worth doing.
Ow, you are sooo wrong lol.
If that is pvp for you, you can do it right now without any excuses. Just go to a pvp instance, and in 2 seconds you will have your own smash and boom.
PVP is about proving YOURSELF that you have skills and abilities to destroy another human player in the same circunstances, because you have more skills than him (i mean piloting skills, for example). You cant do that when the power creep is so stupidly bad that you dont have even time to do anything at all. Not even show your pvp opponent that you are better skilled than him and you are a great pilot.