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Introduction to space PvE tanking in STO

ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
edited August 2015 in The Academy
If you would like to know more about tanking in space PvE, please consider giving these videos a look. I hope to add more soon. I am still trying to figure out how to do the video thing, so please do not be harsh with respect to comments about the quality. If you have comments about the content, such as incorrect or inaccurate information, please feel free to comment in the comments section for the video on youtube so I can address them there. If you have questions about tanking not addressed in videos, post them in the STO forums or in the comments for the video on youtube.

Thank you.

Intro
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTLOdVphC0U

Basic bridge officer setups
Video 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFF2LUxRWxQ

ISA (How not to run it)
Video 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVe7b7MWKyc

Scimitar as a tank
Video 4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50gzi8Ub6tk

Setting up the captain skills
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrM1592BQoI

Galaxy-X setup as a tank running ISA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g3Ybe0raTI

Introduction to the T6 Andromeda
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7iDg94jofg

Introduction to the Negh'Tev
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLytc-Dfb4Q

Introduction to the T6 D'Khellra
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0ORhIV-X4c


When notified of errors, I'm human and it does happen, I will attempt to note the error and re-record the video when time permits. As videos are re-recorded, I will update this page with the latest links.


Thank you for your input.
Post edited by ryakidrys on
«1

Comments

  • jarvisandalfredjarvisandalfred Member Posts: 1,549 Bug Hunter
    edited June 2015
    Just wanna make a quick note on the Scimitank video:

    Rugal/Zemok/whatever for attack patterns is a guarantee, just a very expensive one.

    Otherwise, thanks for the mention, and thumbs up!
    SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci

    SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci

    Tacs are overrated.

    Game's best wiki

    Build questions? Look here!
  • gavinrunebladegavinruneblade Member Posts: 3,894 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Tanking has a different function in sto compared to trinity games, but that doesn't make it worthless.

    Many pugs have people who can't survive boss aggro. Protecting them means they do a lot more damage (dead teammates deal 0 DPs).

    It also helps to keep the team focused on objectives rather than splitting off into small groups that accomplish little or nothing (especially in cure space for example) because people often follow the tank once they realize it is safer to be near them.

    Finally, in organized teams a good tank allows friends to experiment with their builds and/or build more damage at the cost of survival (this part is the same as in a trinity game).

    All of which are rewarding for the person flying the tank and reason enough to have a solid guide like this exist. Well done OP.
  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    To Jarvisandalfred: error noted. I'll make changes when possible and update the videos.

    To Beammedown: Please check the videos out because I do not believe your comments reflect that you have watched even the first video.
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    A well built ship meant for tanking is going to be pumping out more damage than most of the carelessly built ships out there simply because dealing damage is a huge part of threat generation.

    So I don't see how making a ship survivable at the same time hurts the team in any way.

    And if a video reaches those that maybe don't feel like reading, or maybe they're shy in game or on the forums, well I don't see how that hurts any of us at all.

    Keep it positive and keep the videos coming!

    PS: I'm entirely familiar with where you're at. Keep at it.
  • jarvisandalfredjarvisandalfred Member Posts: 1,549 Bug Hunter
    edited June 2015
    beameddown wrote: »

    /snip

    1. In Advanced and Elite STF's there is a very real possibility of your teammates dying in an escort. If they're flying cruiser-type ships decked out for survivability, odds are you've already suffered more of a net dps loss than you'd get from 4 pure dps ships and a tank. And the death timer, especially as it increases up to 60 seconds, is a very strong incentive to not die in a time-gated team game.

    2. I can pick up about any cruiser in the game and make it fly in the 40-50k range fairly consistently. I can also put a 3-4x threat multiplier on those ships, as I've determined from when I wasn't as good at getting dps from the (aka in the 15-25k range). This means that I, one of STO's best tanks, can pull aggro from STO's best dps'ers on their best days on a normal day of mine. So what this should mean is that if you're flying with guys in the 30-50k range, you can hit 15-25k and pull aggro from them no problem at all, and you're still pulling aggro from some of the game's better players without a sweat at a dps mark that's not hard to hit in a tank. And if you're flying with people in the 10-30k range, it's incredibly easy to make a build to pull aggro from that.

    People knock the trinity tend to in the same breath knock people who can't survive STF's. The trinity is a thing because, at it's core, people decided that a dedicated dps'er and a dedicated tank was better than two bruiser-esque classes. And in STO, having 5 ships that can all survive most of the aggro and also try to focus on dps is significantly worse than having 4 ships that just spam out the dps and one that puts up a good amount, and pulls and holds aggro.

    ---

    Or then gosh there's those people who just don't purely min-max team comps and want to have fun tanking. You can tank and pull your weight in dps in any queue, so why discourage them from trying to do so? If they don't have a clue, it doesn't matter what they build for, and if they do, it still really doesn't if they're not going for dps records.
    SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci

    SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci

    Tacs are overrated.

    Game's best wiki

    Build questions? Look here!
  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    A few changes have been made to the first post in this thread. Added new version of the initial video and added a ISA run showing a tanky Gal-X as an example.
  • canis36canis36 Member Posts: 737 Arc User
    ryakidrys wrote: »
    A few changes have been made to the first post in this thread. Added new version of the initial video and added a ISA run showing a tanky Gal-X as an example.
    This makes me curious - are these videos general tips and tricks that can be applied to any cruiser/battlecruiser or are these specific to certain ships?
  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    canis36 wrote: »
    ryakidrys wrote: »
    A few changes have been made to the first post in this thread. Added new version of the initial video and added a ISA run showing a tanky Gal-X as an example.
    This makes me curious - are these videos general tips and tricks that can be applied to any cruiser/battlecruiser or are these specific to certain ships?

    The videos provide general tips that, while they do have a tilt toward tanking, do not necessarily have to be used as info for just tanking. Video 2 covers, in general, the 3 basic build types you can use on almost any ship.
    Each ship and playstyle have things that work better than others and/ or take precedence over other things. Tanking, for example, needs to be extra surviveable. An example is using auxillary to dampeners over directed energy modulation at lieutenant level engineering skill slots is a reflection of wanting to take more damage over dishing it out, probably after trial runs exposed a weakness in survival using DEM1 to get as much DPS as possible.
  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    Added video to main page showing a T6 Andromeda
  • kittyflofykittyflofy Member Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    Who needs to tank when it is not needed at all? :)
  • paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    kittyflofy wrote: »
    Who needs to tank when it is not needed at all? :)

    No you don't need a tank in all situations. But in certain situations, you need them.

    I was with Vel just now in Hive Space Elite. Tanks make a difference especially if one of group mates is running a torp boat which gathers a lot of aggro compared to beams. Vel was doing more than 60%+ hits by npc for the team and Marsh doing 50k+ at HSE on a kinetic while another one was buffing.

    Although you can complete hive space elite without a tank, You can count a very few players who can face roll Dps that mission.

  • skymagus00skymagus00 Member Posts: 140 Arc User
    In case it hasn't been mentioned already, there is a skill in the pilot tree - Lone Wolf, I believe - that acts as a hard taunt, for those tanks who need more aggro-holding power.
  • kittyflofykittyflofy Member Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    paxdawn wrote: »
    kittyflofy wrote: »
    Who needs to tank when it is not needed at all? :)

    No you don't need a tank in all situations. But in certain situations, you need them.


    Nah, you dont need to tank everywhere. Dude i am an escort pilot i do all the advanced stfs and everything you can name. Never ever in my life i needed a tanky ship. Only with the 4 or 5 healing abilities i have from traits, masteries, etc, etc i have more than enough and i can focus on making my build attack based, not tanky. Nowadays is almost ridiculous to go for a tanky build.

    Even if i need to draw agro with my little ship for an specific stf or watever i can do it, and i dont need a tanky cruiser.

    The only thing you need to know is how to do things. Tank?? lol, that is history on this game...
  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    kittyflofy wrote: »

    Nah, you dont need to tank everywhere. Dude i am an escort pilot i do all the advanced stfs and everything you can name. Never ever in my life i needed a tanky ship. Only with the 4 or 5 healing abilities i have from traits, masteries, etc, etc i have more than enough and i can focus on making my build attack based, not tanky. Nowadays is almost ridiculous to go for a tanky build.

    Even if i need to draw agro with my little ship for an specific stf or watever i can do it, and i dont need a tanky cruiser.

    The only thing you need to know is how to do things. Tank?? lol, that is history on this game...

    Well, your mind is made up. No evidence presented will matter to you. Thank you for commenting.
  • kittyflofykittyflofy Member Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    ryakidrys wrote: »
    kittyflofy wrote: »

    Nah, you dont need to tank everywhere. Dude i am an escort pilot i do all the advanced stfs and everything you can name. Never ever in my life i needed a tanky ship. Only with the 4 or 5 healing abilities i have from traits, masteries, etc, etc i have more than enough and i can focus on making my build attack based, not tanky. Nowadays is almost ridiculous to go for a tanky build.

    Even if i need to draw agro with my little ship for an specific stf or watever i can do it, and i dont need a tanky cruiser.

    The only thing you need to know is how to do things. Tank?? lol, that is history on this game...

    Well, your mind is made up. No evidence presented will matter to you. Thank you for commenting.

    It is not my mind, it is experience. It is just some of you still believe that this game is like other mmorpgs where you have really defined classes and roles and tank builds really matter. Its not the case.
  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    kittyflofy wrote: »
    ryakidrys wrote: »
    kittyflofy wrote: »

    Nah, you dont need to tank everywhere. Dude i am an escort pilot i do all the advanced stfs and everything you can name. Never ever in my life i needed a tanky ship. Only with the 4 or 5 healing abilities i have from traits, masteries, etc, etc i have more than enough and i can focus on making my build attack based, not tanky. Nowadays is almost ridiculous to go for a tanky build.

    Even if i need to draw agro with my little ship for an specific stf or watever i can do it, and i dont need a tanky cruiser.

    The only thing you need to know is how to do things. Tank?? lol, that is history on this game...

    Well, your mind is made up. No evidence presented will matter to you. Thank you for commenting.

    It is not my mind, it is experience. It is just some of you still believe that this game is like other mmorpgs where you have really defined classes and roles and tank builds really matter. Its not the case.

    In the first video, even I admit that it's not the traditional MMORPG version of a tank, which is probably why your responses aren't met with a lot of acceptance. A tank, or other role, can be a valued part of a team if everyone on the team knows how to take advantage of what each player can bring to the team and how to use them effectively.
  • tempus64tempus64 Member Posts: 806 Arc User
    kittyflofy wrote: »
    ryakidrys wrote: »
    kittyflofy wrote: »

    Nah, you dont need to tank everywhere. Dude i am an escort pilot i do all the advanced stfs and everything you can name. Never ever in my life i needed a tanky ship. Only with the 4 or 5 healing abilities i have from traits, masteries, etc, etc i have more than enough and i can focus on making my build attack based, not tanky. Nowadays is almost ridiculous to go for a tanky build.

    Even if i need to draw agro with my little ship for an specific stf or watever i can do it, and i dont need a tanky cruiser.

    The only thing you need to know is how to do things. Tank?? lol, that is history on this game...

    Well, your mind is made up. No evidence presented will matter to you. Thank you for commenting.

    It is not my mind, it is experience. It is just some of you still believe that this game is like other mmorpgs where you have really defined classes and roles and tank builds really matter. Its not the case.

    Your experience (and opinion for that matter) is immaterial as it doesn't take into account how people want to play the game. Some peoples play style lean more to tanking. It seems you've had too much of the all DPS and nothing else coolaid.

  • gavinrunebladegavinruneblade Member Posts: 3,894 Arc User
    Even with all DPS in elite runs or things like hive advanced, having a tank means the other four can build more fragile higher damage. The team benefits. On certain elites tanks are pretty necessary. Normals and most advanced they are optional. In pugs a decent tank can really help.
  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    Added the T6 Negh'Tev to the initial post list of ships
  • kittyflofykittyflofy Member Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    Even with all DPS in elite runs or things like hive advanced, having a tank means the other four can build more fragile higher damage. The team benefits. On certain elites tanks are pretty necessary. Normals and most advanced they are optional. In pugs a decent tank can really help.

    You can max your damage output in ANY ship and still be a tanky ship. So, it will be better for the whole team to have maxed dps ships because all of em will be tanky at the same time.

    1-2 years ago things were different, and you will always need to sacrifice something to build a tank. Nowadays that history.
  • kittyflofykittyflofy Member Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    tempus64 wrote: »
    kittyflofy wrote: »
    ryakidrys wrote: »
    kittyflofy wrote: »

    Nah, you dont need to tank everywhere. Dude i am an escort pilot i do all the advanced stfs and everything you can name. Never ever in my life i needed a tanky ship. Only with the 4 or 5 healing abilities i have from traits, masteries, etc, etc i have more than enough and i can focus on making my build attack based, not tanky. Nowadays is almost ridiculous to go for a tanky build.

    Even if i need to draw agro with my little ship for an specific stf or watever i can do it, and i dont need a tanky cruiser.

    The only thing you need to know is how to do things. Tank?? lol, that is history on this game...

    Well, your mind is made up. No evidence presented will matter to you. Thank you for commenting.

    It is not my mind, it is experience. It is just some of you still believe that this game is like other mmorpgs where you have really defined classes and roles and tank builds really matter. Its not the case.

    Your experience (and opinion for that matter) is immaterial as it doesn't take into account how people want to play the game. Some peoples play style lean more to tanking. It seems you've had too much of the all DPS and nothing else coolaid.

    Wrong lol. I am not a dps guy. I dont go further than 16-20k dps in any of my ships. But after 5 years playing, after i saw the evolution of ship abilities, traits, masteries, console sets, lobi consoles, doffs, and a huge etc i can say for sure 200% that building a "tank" ship is non sense. Its my opinion, but any experienced player will think the same. If not, he probably is a really lousy pilot.

    The only reason to build a tank ship is to aid in some stfs, and thats the only reason alone. And still it is not necessary at all and it is a waste of time. Of course im talking about advanced, i never do elite since a couple of years ago. Nowadays, if you need to build a tank ship because you dont survive much, its because you dont have even the basic piloting skills. And if you build a tank just to aid in some stfs.. well, that is boring to say the least lol. Because the only thing basically you will be doing is sitting like a duck FAWing all the time.
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    This means that I, one of STO's best tanks, can pull aggro from STO's best dps'ers on their best days on a normal day of mine.

    Well that isn't overly self important is it. I recall you boasting that you could attract half of the attacks in an STF. Well on average every player could expect to take 20% of the attacks. You took an extra 30%. So, you saved each member of your team from (forgive my numbers mr math, i'm being GENEROUS) 8% of the attacks.

    Let me catch my breath.

    Okay better. You could prevent more damage on your team simply by handing out extends, tss, and hazards, maybe a delta pattern or two. Oh! Or tactical team! Who knew?

    Really, you could. It's a math thing but if you need any help with the figures you message me. I've noticed that at times you seem to just pick a number and say it means something that it doesn't. And it's time you gave up on the trinity. It doesn't exist in STO, and never has. You keep repeating yourself but that doesn't make something true. It just means you keep repeating yourself.

  • gradiigradii Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    Not only tanking, but one properly built buff boat ship or buffing officer on the ground (Sci, Eng) and 4 dpsish characters would probably do more dps than 5 characters built only for solo dps.

    "He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
    Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
    he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
    In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
    He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
    He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
    He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
    He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
  • paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    kittyflofy wrote: »
    Nah, you dont need to tank everywhere. Dude i am an escort pilot i do all the advanced stfs and everything you can name. Never ever in my life i needed a tanky ship. Only with the 4 or 5 healing abilities i have from traits, masteries, etc, etc i have more than enough and i can focus on making my build attack based, not tanky. Nowadays is almost ridiculous to go for a tanky build.

    I never said everywhere. I said in certain situations.

    tanking is diversity. one can go for a tank or not.

    Your concept of tank is very different from the tanking mechanics of the game. In order for one to tank, You just cannot rely on heals, or tough ship and expect to hold aggro.
    kittyflofy wrote: »
    Even if i need to draw agro with my little ship for an specific stf or watever i can do it, and i dont need a tanky cruiser.

    The only thing you need to know is how to do things. Tank?? lol, that is history on this game...

    According to you, you only do 16-20k DPS in ISA. I would not trust you to tank for me in hard elite STFs nor would you even get an invite from me nor anyone Top tier channel doing harder elites to tank for them using your 16-20k DPS boat. Nor would you get an invite for DPS role in harder elites in the top tier channel using 16-20k boat.

    Like I said, tanking is diversity. Just like any other weapon. All are viable but only one is optimal. If you are aiming for optimal stuff, you bring recluse nannies, support ships, and bring an AP DBB Scimitar or a Phaser DBB FPER. But this aint an optimal DPS thread.

    If you dont know how to tank nor want it, nor even understand the mechanics in tanking, why even bother to be in this thread?
  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    kittyflofy wrote: »
    Nah, you dont need to tank everywhere. Dude i am an escort pilot i do all the advanced stfs and everything you can name. Never ever in my life i needed a tanky ship. Only with the 4 or 5 healing abilities i have from traits, masteries, etc, etc i have more than enough and i can focus on making my build attack based, not tanky. Nowadays is almost ridiculous to go for a tanky build.

    Even if i need to draw agro with my little ship for an specific stf or watever i can do it, and i dont need a tanky cruiser.

    The only thing you need to know is how to do things. Tank?? lol, that is history on this game...

    It is not my mind, it is experience. It is just some of you still believe that this game is like other mmorpgs where you have really defined classes and roles and tank builds really matter. Its not the case.

    Wrong lol. I am not a dps guy. I dont go further than 16-20k dps in any of my ships. But after 5 years playing, after i saw the evolution of ship abilities, traits, masteries, console sets, lobi consoles, doffs, and a huge etc i can say for sure 200% that building a "tank" ship is non sense. Its my opinion, but any experienced player will think the same. If not, he probably is a really lousy pilot.

    The only reason to build a tank ship is to aid in some stfs, and thats the only reason alone. And still it is not necessary at all and it is a waste of time. Of course im talking about advanced, i never do elite since a couple of years ago. Nowadays, if you need to build a tank ship because you dont survive much, its because you dont have even the basic piloting skills. And if you build a tank just to aid in some stfs.. well, that is boring to say the least lol. Because the only thing basically you will be doing is sitting like a duck FAWing all the time.

    It's apparent you have not watched any of my videos or tried to understand them. I can't make you watch them if you don't want to learn something. I can't make you try to understand the information if your mind is closed.

    Is tanking boring? Trying to stay in range of bad guys to get and hold aggro, keeping your own damage output going as best as possible, taking constant pounding that seems to never let up but varies randomly in intensity, leaving you wondering if heal/ resist A should be used now, or B now, send heal to TAC player who got knocked down to 20% health after taking a warp core breach and hope miracle worker is going to be enough to keep you alive to keep the attack going or hold the heal back from the tac player with low health and hope you manage the incoming damage while holding aggro to keep the potential damage from hurting them, with you wondering which will benefit the team more.....and hoping some kind soul in the team might send a heal your way if you have no heals available for 5 more seconds since they don't need the heal for themselves.....that's not boring, it's an incredible rush when you go through those moments and succeed.
    Some folks get a rush from going toe to toe with a tac cube and blowing it up before it blows them up. There is something fun about finding that you can do something, get a rush from it, and still be some measure of effective.
  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    Added video for the T6 Romulan D'Khellra
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    Keep the videos coming! My next ship build will be a tank and I am learning a lot from your videos. :smile:
  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    e30ernest wrote: »
    Keep the videos coming! My next ship build will be a tank and I am learning a lot from your videos. :smile:

    I'm learning a lot too! I've got a few things in the planning stage right now, so there will be more coming.
  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    Added link to video setting up and comparing high DPS tactical captain skills to engineer tank captain skills setup.
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