test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Options

Should the Devs devote some time to the Damage Modifier?

2

Comments

  • Options
    tk79tk79 Member Posts: 1,020 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    No it's fine as it is.
    I voted "No" because the odds that they break the mod are pretty high, considering the current (broken) metagame.

    Between broken and more broken I prefer the former.
    U.S.S. Eastgate Photo Wall
    STO Screenshot Archive

  • Options
    sistericsisteric Member Posts: 768 Arc User
    Yes, please make the DMG modifier desirable!
    I want to see every mod be worth crafting as long as we are going to have random results on what mods you get when you craft.
    Federation: Fleet Admiral Zombee (Alien Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Danic (Vulcan Science)::Fleet Admiral Daniel Kochheiser (Human Engineer)
    KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
    RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
    RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
    TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
    Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
    Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)

    CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
  • Options
    kodachikunokodachikuno Member Posts: 6,020 Arc User1
    if yall dont want yer [DMG] mod stuff you can mail it to me
  • Options
    gaevsmangaevsman Member Posts: 3,190 Arc User
    Yes, please make the DMG modifier desirable!
    Love to use better quads, i like those weapons... i hope they fix that mod..
    The forces of darkness are upon us!
  • Options
    stuntpilotstuntpilot Member Posts: 76 Arc User
    Yes, please make the DMG modifier desirable!
    All mods should be desirable in some way; when more than half of the mods (and energy types, for that matter, never mind torpedoes as a whole) are widely considered "trash," it's time to make some adjustments.
  • Options
    nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    Remove it. Problem solved.
    Tza0PEl.png
  • Options
    warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    Yes, please make the DMG modifier desirable!
    [Dmg] mod is just bad. At no point in STO has it ever been desirable. When you do R&D and get a a [Dmg] mod on it (not counting the required Epic Ac/Dm mod), the value of that item just went to the shitters. Just 1 [Dmg] mod will do that.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • Options
    paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    [Dmg] mod is just bad. At no point in STO has it ever been desirable. When you do R&D and get a a [Dmg] mod on it (not counting the required Epic Ac/Dm mod), the value of that item just went to the shitters. Just 1 [Dmg] mod will do that.

    I dont think it is bad. You are doing 10-15% damage difference between DMGx4 and Crtdx3pen/crtdx4.

    DMG mods are viable nor bad just not optimal. One of the things I could think of is the comparison between beams, cannons and torps. All are viable but only beams are optimal.

    Or you can compare the image of AP has the image of being overpowered by the masses little they would realize that the damage difference between AP and no proc is less than 5%.
  • Options
    thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    Or we could just accept that different weapons and modifiers are for different ways of dealing damage and just move on with our lives. Everything can't be the same. This is starting to sound like the 'Oh torpedoes are so hard to use make them better.' tribe's mantra.

    That mods in crafting are subject to RNG is pretty ridiculous, but not the subject of the thread I suppose.
  • Options
    leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    Yes, please make the DMG modifier desirable!
    I'll repeat my line about the DMG mod.

    I think it should be a beginner's mod, an anti-skill mod. This will make is very desirable for new players (who probably already have more of it), somewhat desirable for most players (as long as they can be humble), and something skilled players will want to cycle out of.

    Basically, I think it should be a mod that diminishes the severity of all offensive BOff powers while equipped but increases base damage.

    What are "fairly skilled but not amazing" DPSers doing nowdays? 60k DPS?

    I think a ship decked out in Dmg mods should do, say, 40-50k DPS while just hitting spacebar but that it should come at the cost of offensive BO ability magnitude.

    No skill? Stack DMG and gain instant team utility. Have some skill, stack some DMG. Are you a keybind master? You'll want other stats.
  • Options
    leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    Yes, please make the DMG modifier desirable!
    For example:

    Each stack of Dmg might provide -6% BOff power magnitude and a boost to weapon haste, arc, and damage designed to improve white damage by 41% per DMG mod.

    This means your offensive BOff powers would literally do nothing if you had a cruiser with half the DMG mods possible. However it also means that a ship geared out with Dmgx4 [DmgX] epic gear is going to do 50k damage smashing spacebar. But that's not cheap to get.

    For someone with a fairly typical set that has one DMG mod per item, they'd be sitting on 15k spacebar damage and have a 40% penalty to offensive BOff powers. This would mean that if you can normally hit 60k, you'd only hit around 48k with the DMG mod stuff equipped. But if you can normally hit less than 2k, you're going to get 15k. There's a sweet spot between gear and skill this way.
  • Options
    kodachikunokodachikuno Member Posts: 6,020 Arc User1
    seriously, feel free to send me all your [dmg] mod items, esp if they come with the equally hated [acc] I will give them good homes
  • Options
    lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    Yes, please make the DMG modifier desirable!
    I say yes.

    If only to provide a viable alternative to those who don't want to have to stack a billion CRTH consoles or weapon mods to be competitive. STO is essentially now CRTH/CRTD online as it's the only thing anyone cares about when picking high-end weapons.
    DMG should be able to at least offer a similar level of damage but via an alternative route. At the moment it's way out of line with the other mods.
    SulMatuul.png
  • Options
    warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    Yes, please make the DMG modifier desirable!
    paxdawn wrote: »
    [Dmg] mod is just bad. At no point in STO has it ever been desirable. When you do R&D and get a a [Dmg] mod on it (not counting the required Epic Ac/Dm mod), the value of that item just went to the shitters. Just 1 [Dmg] mod will do that.

    I dont think it is bad. You are doing 10-15% damage difference between DMGx4 and Crtdx3pen/crtdx4.

    DMG mods are viable nor bad just not optimal. One of the things I could think of is the comparison between beams, cannons and torps. All are viable but only beams are optimal.

    Or you can compare the image of AP has the image of being overpowered by the masses little they would realize that the damage difference between AP and no proc is less than 5%.

    The proof you need of [Dmg] mod desirability is in the Exchange. It doesn't matter what energy weapon type. Dmg is horrible and makes things worse. The Exchange rates show that.

    What those CrtH, CrtD, Pen mods do for weapons may not seem much to you, but in the grand scope of offense these days, those are way better mods. With good Crit Rates, those CrtD mods become even more desirable. Even KDF/Fed builds that didn't have good crit rates (can't stack Romulan Operative like Roms can) can be made into decent crit rates with Spire TAC Consoles. In that case, Severity goes a longer way.

    Even before the shift in STO's meta to CritD and/or Pen mods, Dmg wasn't desirable. Back then Acc or CrtH, especially Acc if you PVP'd (the old "You can't critz if you can't hitz" in PVP). Again, at no time in STO's history was Dmg wanted. Not when STO was new in 2010. Not in 2013 when LOR released. Not just before DR. Not since DR hit in October 2014. And definitely not now in mid-2015.
    I voted "Yes"...as an overall, that various mods/procs need to be balanced overall - a major mod/proc pass...but in the end, it's something that should be announced on a Friday so there's the weekend fun on the forums followed by the announcement on Monday that they've gotten around to selectable mods. C'mon, it's Cryptic...it's how they troll. :wink:
    Proc/Weapon rebalance is going to happen the same time as abilities get rebalanced B)

    Tetryon is useful now!
    Half-Life 3 releasing next month!
    World Peace to follow!
    XzRTofz.gif
  • Options
    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    Yes, please make the DMG modifier desirable!
    thissler wrote: »
    Or we could just accept that different weapons and modifiers are for different ways of dealing damage and just move on with our lives. Everything can't be the same. This is starting to sound like the 'Oh torpedoes are so hard to use make them better.' tribe's mantra.

    That mods in crafting are subject to RNG is pretty ridiculous, but not the subject of the thread I suppose.

    Siembieda did a bit about balance in discussing Glitter Boys and other things in one of the Rifts books...don't recall which. He talked about how folks out there tend to look for different flavors of the same thing as their form of balance, where everything is equal and there's not much room left for any creative usage.

    It's along those lines in discussing balance with things in STO - some folks want the Baskins & Robbins expansion where everything is the same, just a different flavor. Others though, it's more about creating a balance of opportunity.

    A bunch of SDC folks can work to bring down a MDC tank - cause it's not just about pew pewing at the tank. Thus, there is a form of balance there. No, an SDC guy walking up to a MDC tank and whacking on it with a stick is going to do little more than leave mushy bits in the treads. But, the SDC guy can still go about bringing down the MDC tank.

    That's the kind of balance the game lacks, imho...something that [Dmg] lacks. There's not the opportunity for it to excel.

    edit: Regarding the acronyms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaversal_system
    Post edited by virusdancer on
  • Options
    hawkrunnerhawkrunner Member Posts: 150 Arc User
    Yes, please make the DMG modifier desirable!
    tk79 wrote: »
    I voted "No" because the odds that they break the mod are pretty high, considering the current (broken) metagame.

    Between broken and more broken I prefer the former.

    One significant issue with Dmg is that it has absolutely no effect when you use the ability Beam Fire At Will. To test this, have comparable beam weapons, one with at least one [Dmg], and one without any [Dmg] mods. Activate Beam Fire At Will, and mouse over the tooltips for the different weapons. You will see that the damage is exactly the same, as long as the weapons are equal in mk, rarity, etc. I have no idea if other types of weapons (cannon, torpedoes, mines, etc) suffer from the same issue.

    The modifier is not just "broken", it is non-functional under certain (commonly found) conditions.
  • Options
    rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    Yes, please make the DMG modifier desirable!
    thissler wrote: »
    Or we could just accept that different weapons and modifiers are for different ways of dealing damage and just move on with our lives. Everything can't be the same. This is starting to sound like the 'Oh torpedoes are so hard to use make them better.' tribe's mantra.

    That mods in crafting are subject to RNG is pretty ridiculous, but not the subject of the thread I suppose.

    Siembieda did a bit about balance in discussing Glitter Boys and other things in one of the Rifts books...don't recall which. He talked about how folks out there tend to look for different flavors of the same thing as their form of balance, where everything is equal and there's not much room left for any creative usage.

    It's along those lines in discussing balance with things in STO - some folks want the Baskins & Robbins expansion where everything is the same, just a different flavor. Others though, it's more about creating a balance of opportunity.

    A bunch of SDC folks can work to bring down a MDC tank - cause it's not just about pew pewing at the tank. Thus, there is a form of balance there. No, an SDC guy walking up to a MDC tank and whacking on it with a stick is going to do little more than leave mushy bits in the treads. But, the SDC guy can still go about bringing down the MDC tank.

    That's the kind of balance the game lacks, imho...something that [Dmg] lacks. There's not the opportunity for it to excel.

    I totally agree. One thing though. Where I'm from, SDC means Special Day Class. It's a type of Special Education class so, for me, it was kind of hard to read your post...
  • Options
    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Arc User
    Yes, please make the DMG modifier desirable!
    What I've heard is that problem with the [Dmg] modifier is that it doesn't get factored into the actual damage calculation. It's applied as bonus damage after the calculation, not before, meaning that, say, in a critical hit it doesn't get multiplied by whatever the critical bonus is.

    This is really an order of operations, PEMDAS, issue, rather than a too high/too low issue.
  • Options
    dareaudareau Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    Yes, please make the DMG modifier desirable!
    kittyflofy wrote: »
    Critical are not a rare occurrence, they are common.

    No, they are not common lol. Thats the reason we have critical chance. Or maybe i missed these past 5 years? omg..

    They are common.

    In a typical D&D 4-hour session, you may never roll a single crit. In pretty much every 5 minute engagement in STO you you'll score multiple ones. If an occurence of a crit happens so often, it becomes part of the expected damage for a ship. You can pretty much safely average out the critical hit damage. If a crit was really rare, then building a ship around it would often end up being disappointing. Imagine building your ship around crits and no scoring a single crit during an Infected run! Would make you wonder if it was really worth it relying on the rare wonder run where you score 1 or more crits.

    My Sci has parsed 52% crit rate on his exotic damage skills (mostly from the crafting partigen trait), and I'm not even rolling the full 400 partigens that I could on that skill...

    You realize that hitting 20% crit rate on a Scimitar, Avenger, or other 5 fore weapon slot means that the ship is, basic mathematically expected, "to average" one crit per volley?

    At these rates (one per volley, or more crits than normal hits), I find any attempt to call the "critical hit" an uncommon occurrence is untrue.

    So, the benefit of extra critical damage far outstrips a "nominal" damage booster from Dmg. But, as others have pointed out, boosting Damage to insane levels could make it more desirable than Crit (as suddenly the player does not need to stack CritH to make the CritD work. Otherwise, the existence of CritH / CritD combo would be greater than the plain Dmg mod would...
    Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...

    To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
  • Options
    paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    The proof you need of [Dmg] mod desirability is in the Exchange. It doesn't matter what energy weapon type. Dmg is horrible and makes things worse. The Exchange rates show that.

    What those CrtH, CrtD, Pen mods do for weapons may not seem much to you, but in the grand scope of offense these days, those are way better mods. With good Crit Rates, those CrtD mods become even more desirable. Even KDF/Fed builds that didn't have good crit rates (can't stack Romulan Operative like Roms can) can be made into decent crit rates with Spire TAC Consoles. In that case, Severity goes a longer way.

    Even before the shift in STO's meta to CritD and/or Pen mods, Dmg wasn't desirable. Back then Acc or CrtH, especially Acc if you PVP'd (the old "You can't critz if you can't hitz" in PVP). Again, at no time in STO's history was Dmg wanted. Not when STO was new in 2010. Not in 2013 when LOR released. Not just before DR. Not since DR hit in October 2014. And definitely not now in mid-2015.

    Exchange is the perception of the sellers and buyers. Nothing to do with exact performance.

    DMG mod only matters if you are min/maxing. These matters to the DPS league at higher channels but shouldnt matter at all to RPers or casual players or lower tier DPS space channels who does not want to improve DPS.

    As pointed out several posts above, For those min/maxers, this is big due to the base of their DPS weapons being big. While if you are within the mean of STO players in DPS, the damage difference isnt as huge nor significant when you are a min/maxer for DPS.

    The changes in damage mod should not happen Not unless the majority of our population is already min/maxing for DPS, when the top tier DPS population outweighs, your average mean DPS and roleplayers, then it should matter since you have majority of the players of STO playing already in top tier DPS.

    It is exactly the same logic as torp. No one knows how to optimize torps until someone used in PvE and excels on it. but even if you optimize torps, you are not match for an optimized beam. If you want to put this in statistical perspective, an expert can bring DMGx4 weapon mods into 100k+ DPS but nowhere will it be capable of overshadowing the top 1 performance. Someone is got to be on top over the others, this is true even in MoDs. However, such a difference gives us diversity with only the mass perception creating the illusion the DMG mod or Torp being not viable. Except both are viable just not optimal.
    Post edited by paxdawn on
  • Options
    sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,823 Arc User
    No it's fine as it is.
    in my opinion DMG should be removed from the game, like pvp (res, dmg). And the new mods "trust", "snare", "over" should be improved, because they add something more interesting.
  • Options
    paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    -snip-

    You do lose damage from Damage Modifiers but it is not significant for an average player as you believe or your perception.

    If you dont know anyone in the top tier DPS or havent done 100k+ DPS using DMGx4 yourself, you can use Hellspawny's DPS calculator. For the purpose of this discussion, Assuming everything is constant except the weapon modifiers(group quality/performance, piloting performance, luck on sci console proc), look at the #1 parse now in DPS, the total damage he did was 233k DPS, 68k DPS on weapons with the rest being non weapon damage. Whats a 6-12k DPS loss, from your weapons? It is significant if you are aiming for Top DPS but isnt significant if you are an average player.

    The average mean for STO DPS players according to the only available public database is 9k+ DPS. whats 900-1.8k DPS loss, thats all assuming that player's DPS all came from the weapons and not in other sources?

    Now with regards to Torp boats, a top tier player have made T1 ship using torps at 75k+ DPS. Having said that, I dont know why you refuse to believe that top tier players using the best T5Us or T6 with the best support group cannot do 100k+ DPS using DMGx4 weapons.
    Post edited by paxdawn on
  • Options
    rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    Yes, please make the DMG modifier desirable!
    paxdawn wrote: »
    -snip-

    You do lose damage from Damage Modifiers but it is not significant for an average player as you believe or your perception.

    If you dont know anyone in the top tier DPS or havent done 100k+ DPS using DMGx4 yourself, you can use Hellspawny's DPS calculator. Assuming everything is constant except the weapon modifiers(group quality/performance, piloting performance, luck on sci console proc), look at ryans parse, the total damage he did on his weapons on his 233k DPS parse, 68k DPS on weapons with the rest being non weapon damage. Whats a 6-12k DPS loss, from your weapons? It is significant if you are aiming for Top DPS but isnt significant if you are an average player.

    The average mean for STO DPS players according to the only available public channel is 9k+ DPS. whats 900-1.8k DPS loss, thats all assuming that player's DPS came from the weapons.?

    Now with regards to Torp boats, a top tier player have made T1 ship using torps at 75k+ DPS. Having said that, I dont know why you refuse to believe that top tier players using the best T5Us or T6 with the best support group cannot do 100k+ DPS using DMGx4 weapons.

    yeah but that's all with nanny runs, especially the T1 ship. No one person is getting 233k or 75k DPS in a T1 torpedo boat. The whole team is making one person get 233k DPS and a T1 torpedo boat get 75k+. That means very little to any one person.

    Ryan is a good player, but, IMO, his whole team should show up on the record board with him being the captain.

    EDIT: anyway, I'm with Virus and Thissler on this one. I want Dmg to be desirable but not in the same way CrtD and CrtH are. Maybe it can boost the proc on the weapon? It already boosts the damage on plasma burns. Why not let it boost the duration of the phaser disable or let tetryon do more shield damage, etc?
  • Options
    paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    rmy1081 wrote: »
    yeah but that's all with nanny runs, especially the T1 ship. No one person is getting 233k or 75k DPS in a T1 torpedo boat. The whole team is making one person get 233k DPS and a T1 torpedo boat get 75k+. That means very little to any one person.

    Ryan is a good player, but, IMO, his whole team should show up on the record board with him being the captain.

    I am stating that you can achieve 100k+ DPS using DMGx4 weapons at optimal levels and used Ryans parse as basis of comparison since he refuse to believe that such numbers are achievable in DMGx4 weapons.

    For the average person, the parse of Ryan including the damage difference between DMGx4 weapons or CritDx4/CrtdX3pen, shouldnt mean a thing, which is my whole point. This small statistical stuff only matters to those chasing top 1 DPS.

    DMG modifier gives you diversity, torps give you diversity. You can achieve viable levels using Torps and DMG modifiers but you cannot achieve optimal DPS using those.
  • Options
    meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    No it's fine as it is.
    So, how do I unsubscribe from this topic?! No offense, but this new forum is a total mess :(
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • Options
    paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    -snip-

    Exchange doesn't represent exact performance but perception of the seller of the value of what he is selling.

    You forgot a lot of computation, That's why I said use hellspawnys calculator rather than your own since it accounts things that you didn't account for.

    Now, I won't spill more info anymore about this since it will change the cheap stuff in exchange which doesn't account the small difference of certain weapon mods I buy and use for high Dps runs.
  • Options
    xparr15xparr15 Member Posts: 283 Arc User
    Yes, please make the DMG modifier desirable!
    I don't really think that it matters. People are going to determine the best modifier and just go for x4 of them on weapons. Doesn't matter if it's crtd or dmg, same actions.

    That being said I do support a buff to dmg to at least bring it up to par because of how much special gear (fleet, quad, etc) comes with it.
Sign In or Register to comment.