Hrmmm, how did the folks that are able to do things manage to end up doing them? Was there a magic wand waved in the middle of the night as they slept? Is there some hidden STO gene?
They have been playing for 5 years and forgot - or even don't know how it is to start now - that there were times they hadn't known? They assume something is obvious to everyone, because it's obvious to them? They were learning the tricks together with others learning tricks, because it was new to everybody?
Personally I have met only helpful people, or indifferent (but not hostile) in the game, but from the forum I can see that not everyone is like that. I dread the first time my head is torn off my shoulders for not meeting someone's perceived minimum. :P
To be clear: I don't do any STFs above Normal, because I know I'm not ready, but even Normal can be stressful, when it's the very first time, while the others do it brazillionth and can get through with closed eyes.
What needs to be done is maybe an outreach program for people who want to learn in a friendly environment. Get veterans to volunteer to coach the less experienced players on basic single energy type builds and at least basic STF tactics or something. But do it in a way that leaves the rookies feeling that they accomplished something other than getting yelled at by pissed off elitests who didn't get their percieved easy marks.
Hrmmm, how did the folks that are able to do things manage to end up doing them? Was there a magic wand waved in the middle of the night as they slept? Is there some hidden STO gene? Or...is it because there is a buffet of information available and all sorts of folks that have been willing to help others as they were helped previously?
I don't think the problem is people that want to learn in a friendly environment, and I believe that's one of the reasons that there is so much antagonism....cause it's about the folks that do not want to learn - do not want to bother. Cause there's no magic wand...no STO gene...folks didn't sit in a chair, jack in, and get the How-To STO program loaded into their cyberbrains. People that wanted to learn took advantage of everything that has been made available to them.
I completely agree.
Honestly, i believe it's because of the stigma associated with being 'good' at a game.
I play alot of counter strike, and over there it goes like this
Not as good as someone : Useless Noob.
Better than someone : Sad Nerd who plays the game to much.
It's a stupid concept, because we are all playing the same game here. People always want to be better than someone else, so despite, as you said - tonnes of information being available to everyone some people refuse to learn, because it's simply a low effort way to assert themselves as superior.
warp plasma can't melt neutronium beams
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,581Community Moderator
What encourage improvement was difficulty setting. Now that you have Normal and Normal+. there is very little incentive to improve in public queues due to farming Normal gets you more rewards in time than Advance. The problem with your suggestion is that it denies the existence of players refusing to improve which is the same playerbase whinning for advance nerfs and the threads. Absent of these type of players who wants to be spoonfed with level 50 NPC quality like years ago even with the power creep of level 60 nowdays, your suggestion would work since it worked for advance quality players before the nerf via quality fleets, friends, alliances or channel knowledge. While the ones refusing to improve or learn are the ones left behind. Which in turn these type of players who refuse to improve are the ones who spearheaded for the Advance nerfs.
I disagree with the reason you are saying is responsible for the "Nerf".
I was able to regurlarly complete the old elite level STFs before. Needed someone to hold off probes in Kitomer Elite? I'll park in a good spot and mow 'em down. Even in a cruiser I could dump Warp Plasma, and be confident I could take them down. When they changed things over to the newer system... even veterans like myself (and I started playing about a month before F2P) were struggling to dent things because they not only buffed the difficulty level of what they said would be the equivelent of the old Elite, they made them frickin' HP Sponges, encouraging the DPS or GTFO mentality. Unless you dumped a crapload of resources into upgrading your gear, you were relegated to "n00b" status again, and in some cases, veterans were berated for not having "the deeps" to compete and told to "Learn2Play" because of it.
They didn't nerf things as much as change what the objectives were. They did scale the enemy HP down to a more reasonable level, but the main thing was the objectives changed. Now its not so daunting that we need Elite ready gear for Advanced anymore.
What I suggested was to provide another resource for players who want to learn. Some people won't know about channels, may not have many friends, and may not be in a "quality" fleet or even in a fleet at all.
I disagree with the reason you are saying is responsible for the "Nerf".
I was able to regurlarly complete the old elite level STFs before. Needed someone to hold off probes in Kitomer Elite? I'll park in a good spot and mow 'em down. Even in a cruiser I could dump Warp Plasma, and be confident I could take them down. When they changed things over to the newer system... even veterans like myself (and I started playing about a month before F2P) were struggling to dent things because they not only buffed the difficulty level of what they said would be the equivelent of the old Elite, they made them frickin' HP Sponges, encouraging the DPS or GTFO mentality. Unless you dumped a crapload of resources into upgrading your gear, you were relegated to "n00b" status again, and in some cases, veterans were berated for not having "the deeps" to compete and told to "Learn2Play" because of it.
Look at your attitude and your mentality. You want to play a level 60 NPC at the level of a level 50 NPC.
You refuse to learn how to beat those at that level. Beating those is so easy. VD already stated there is a slight increase in DPS, wherein the DPS less than 10% of the maximum potential in advance. DPS is one those things they can excuse and blame for their personal shortcomings or laziness.
Veterans /= competence. A lot of the first complaints I saw in the ISA wherein that mission there success only happens when someone does a Grav well. They become frustrated. Why not bring Grave well themselves? Why complain about "fail optionals" when optionals dont fail you?
It clearly shows, refusal to improve even by a slightest knowing that the NPC is 10 levels above the previous elite nor expect the objectives to be static as it were years ago.
They didn't nerf things as much as change what the objectives were. They did scale the enemy HP down to a more reasonable level, but the main thing was the objectives changed. Now its not so daunting that we need Elite ready gear for Advanced anymore.
You dont need elite gear to do advance before the nerf. You can use common gear, mk 12 gear, with all pre DR stuff, level 50 with no specs at all to complete advance.
Those players need to be able accept to learn. Your assumption everyone is willing to learn is wrong. Look at your wording, Even your ignorance that pre nerf Advance needs elite gear shows what level of your knowledge in this game is. You yourself refuse to accept that one needs improvement by not recognizing that the problem of the former advance queue is the player rather than advance queue.
What encourage improvement was difficulty setting. Now that you have Normal and Normal+. there is very little incentive to improve in public queues due to farming Normal gets you more rewards in time than Advance. The problem with your suggestion is that it denies the existence of players refusing to improve which is the same playerbase whinning for advance nerfs and the threads. Absent of these type of players who wants to be spoonfed with level 50 NPC quality like years ago even with the power creep of level 60 nowdays, your suggestion would work since it worked for advance quality players before the nerf via quality fleets, friends, alliances or channel knowledge. While the ones refusing to improve or learn are the ones left behind. Which in turn these type of players who refuse to improve are the ones who spearheaded for the Advance nerfs.
I disagree with the reason you are saying is responsible for the "Nerf".
I was able to regurlarly complete the old elite level STFs before. Needed someone to hold off probes in Kitomer Elite? I'll park in a good spot and mow 'em down. Even in a cruiser I could dump Warp Plasma, and be confident I could take them down. When they changed things over to the newer system... even veterans like myself (and I started playing about a month before F2P) were struggling to dent things because they not only buffed the difficulty level of what they said would be the equivelent of the old Elite, they made them frickin' HP Sponges, encouraging the DPS or GTFO mentality. Unless you dumped a crapload of resources into upgrading your gear, you were relegated to "n00b" status again, and in some cases, veterans were berated for not having "the deeps" to compete and told to "Learn2Play" because of it.
They didn't nerf things as much as change what the objectives were. They did scale the enemy HP down to a more reasonable level, but the main thing was the objectives changed. Now its not so daunting that we need Elite ready gear for Advanced anymore.
What I suggested was to provide another resource for players who want to learn. Some people won't know about channels, may not have many friends, and may not be in a "quality" fleet or even in a fleet at all.
None of this is true, I haven't even bothered with upgrades to gear and, I get by perfectly fine with even mk xi gear no less. Heck, you got people doing it with less than mkxi, using even common gear so, this is no excuse at all for ANYONE!
8k-10k dps is uber easy to obtain without needing mkxiv epic gear, super uber easy and, is about all that is needed to accomplish advanced missions also!
8k-10k dps is uber easy to obtain without needing mkxiv epic gear, super uber easy and, is about all that is needed to accomplish advanced missions also!
A bold claim. I'm not necessarily disputing it, just suggesting that it could be questionable. How about throwing up a build on STO Academy that is a "Guaranteed" uber easyAND cheap 10k build, hmmm?
..
I do agree however that 8-10k is all that's really required for each member of a pre-made, and can be enough if you get a "good" PuG. A couple of us sometimes PuG ISA just for laughs and the challenge. One of us will be in a recluse or nebula, throwing out heals, CC's and debuffs, the other will be a 20k~40k DPS boat.
Sometimes it's a clean fast run, because everyone knows the drill, and has the 'deeps'. But sometimes, the only thing saving the run is the two of us controlling spheres, and taking out generators. <shrug> But that's why we do it
8k-10k dps is uber easy to obtain without needing mkxiv epic gear, super uber easy and, is about all that is needed to accomplish advanced missions also!
A bold claim. I'm not necessarily disputing it, just suggesting that it could be questionable. How about throwing up a build on STO Academy that is a "Guaranteed" uber easyAND cheap 10k build, hmmm?
..
I do agree however that 8-10k is all that's really required for each member of a pre-made, and can be enough if you get a "good" PuG. A couple of us sometimes PuG ISA just for laughs and the challenge. One of us will be in a recluse or nebula, throwing out heals, CC's and debuffs, the other will be a 20k~40k DPS boat.
Sometimes it's a clean fast run, because everyone knows the drill, and has the 'deeps'. But sometimes, the only thing saving the run is the two of us controlling spheres, and taking out generators. <shrug> But that's why we do it
I have thrown up a few but, there are dozens already there, just waiting for players to mimic. It's just many players, are still oblivious to using such helpful information, that is right at their fingertips. It's like they are searching the internet, without so much as a taskbar/search engine/search bar/etc... Guess how far that gets them? For some, it's not an issue but, for others it is until they learn and/or, are taught what they need know but, than you have those still aimlessly wandering around never figuring it out it seems!
The worst, are those who want the game constantly dwindled down, instead of them seeking to increase their own potential!!!
8k-10k dps is uber easy to obtain without needing mkxiv epic gear, super uber easy and, is about all that is needed to accomplish advanced missions also!
A bold claim. I'm not necessarily disputing it, just suggesting that it could be questionable. How about throwing up a build on STO Academy that is a "Guaranteed" uber easyAND cheap 10k build, hmmm?
..
I do agree however that 8-10k is all that's really required for each member of a pre-made, and can be enough if you get a "good" PuG. A couple of us sometimes PuG ISA just for laughs and the challenge. One of us will be in a recluse or nebula, throwing out heals, CC's and debuffs, the other will be a 20k~40k DPS boat.
Sometimes it's a clean fast run, because everyone knows the drill, and has the 'deeps'. But sometimes, the only thing saving the run is the two of us controlling spheres, and taking out generators. <shrug> But that's why we do it
For Advanced, 8-10k is overkill...even that much is not needed. Well, I don't recall the numbers for HSA - but HSA might as well be an Elite compared to the other Advanced queues (that's Hive, btw, for anybody reading along and not sure if I was talking about Hive or Herald). It's nifty to have some buffer/padding, no doubt, cause you're going to have those folks showing up doing less and folks will have to cover for them or the odds of failing increase - it's an undue burden that those folks place on other members of the team by not contributing.
As for anybody being able to post a guaranteed 10k build...they can't. It's not just the build...it's what the player is doing with it and who they're running with. The folks doing 50-100k+ aren't running 50-100k+ builds...cause you can drop those same builds out to a group of other players and get nowhere near that DPS.
Somebody averaging 125 Weapon Power vs. somebody averaging 75 Weapon Power is going to do twice the DPS. Each point of Weapon Power is a 2% final boost to damage...50 points is a 100% increase in damage.
Somebody that's engaged with targets 80% of the time vs. somebody that's engaged 40% of the time, everything else the same...they've doubled their DPS.
The range at which somebody engages, is also going to affect it. With these stupid forums, I can't hunt down the post for it (was so simple before, Keyword = maelwys & Poster = bareel...voila, bareel's post linking to the spreadsheet from maelwys with the range penalties for Beams and Cannons). I remember that Beams are 64% damage (so -36% damage) at 10km. Somebody at 10km is going to do less DPS than somebody at 5km...etc, etc, etc.
There's going to be buff/debuff efficiency. If somebody's wasting buffs/debuffs, triggering them too early or too late - that's going to affect their DPS in an adverse manner. If they're only effectively using their APA 30% of the time, they're not going to do the DPS of somebody using it more efficiently and effectively for example.
That also gets into the team, since the team will be dropping out buffs/debuffs. If somebody's running with a team that handles that better, they'll have higher DPS than they would from the team that doesn't.
The majority of DPS issues have little to do with the build when it comes to meeting those minimal (compared to potential) DPS requirements the content might have for doing certain objectives. The majority of the issues are with the player. You can take two players in the exact same build, and one might end up nowhere near 10k while the other is over 100k. Two folks can apply the same upgrades to their boats, and they will see the same increase - but because that increase is a percentage increase over what was there, somebody doing 3k isn't going to get the same amount of an increase as somebody that was doing 30k...same percentage, but not the same amount.
Gets into the tinfoil hat area of why Cryptic does such a bad job of explaining things and providing so little feedback in game...cause if players realized just how little they were getting out of their upgrades, they wouldn't put all the effort in, spend all the resources, potentially spend the money to make those upgrades.
At the end of the day, a player can throw whatever they want into the build...but until they learn to play, it's not going to do them much good. At the same time, somebody that's learned to play a bit, will be overkill for the content without having to do any of the upgrades.
Imagine if Cryptic did a decent job with tooltips, explaining things, had Academy missions explaining things, had missions that offered feedback, etc, etc, etc...imagine all the folks flying around doing 50-100k+ DPS for content that requires 6-7k from players.
It definitely kind of trippy...even the changes to the queues feed the tinfoil hat thing if one thinks about it.
Frankly, I'd like it if people felt outed again. Maybe seeing how useless and shameful they are will inspire them to get better.
No it will just drive them away to other games.
The majority of players are casual, in that they don't come on here, aren't in a fleet and don't know or care what their DPS is. So these players are just going to be put off from the game by being banned from areas due to "being noobs" or because they are expected to perform to some arbitrary level of DPS without being told how to get there.
This game is atrocious at explaining how to play, even basic mechanics and interactions with kit & skills need a university degree to understand. You roll through the SP content and have little in the way of guidance. Then try out PVE queues at normal and find them a cake-walk.
Then you roll into advanced because you think you are quite good and suddenly the game throws you a curve ball and you have no idea anymore. And if players are going to kick you or ban you from content or slag you off for not magically learning every aspect of the game then you will be put off.
I don't mind carrying a player or 2 but when their in the 1k-2k dps range, im annoyed at the very least because they shouldn't be there.
I liked the part where you said you don't mind carrying a player unless their dps is too low. Do you actually understand what carrying means?
Also, you could make your post actually useful (instead of a whine) by telling people how to check their dps. As plenty of others have already stated, the average person doesn't really think about this, much less have any idea how to check it.
Any chance we can run this the other direction, if your damage is over a certain level stay out of Normals? Few things more annoying than flying something not built for high numbers (I refuse to participate in the power creep or pad Cryptic's grind metrics, same builds I've been using for years, hence running Normals), then someone rolls in and massively overkills everything and seems to expect a thank-you for leaving me with nothing to do. I mean if people want it one way, fair is fair to go the other right?
Any chance we can run this the other direction, if your damage is over a certain level stay out of Normals? Few things more annoying than flying something not built for high numbers (I refuse to participate in the power creep or pad Cryptic's grind metrics, same builds I've been using for years, hence running Normals), then someone rolls in and massively overkills everything and seems to expect a thank-you for leaving me with nothing to do. I mean if people want it one way, fair is fair to go the other right?
It's one of the things, I think, folks have mentioned asking for in the past that's been ignored like so many other things.
Something where...
Normal - Not Advanced - Not Elite
Not Normal - Advanced - Not Elite
Not Normal - Not Advanced - Elite
...for the public queues and whatever for the private.
Any chance we can run this the other direction, if your damage is over a certain level stay out of Normals? Few things more annoying than flying something not built for high numbers (I refuse to participate in the power creep or pad Cryptic's grind metrics, same builds I've been using for years, hence running Normals), then someone rolls in and massively overkills everything and seems to expect a thank-you for leaving me with nothing to do. I mean if people want it one way, fair is fair to go the other right?
That sounds like more of a problem with players who have bad attitudes than anything else. While I'm hardly a top-tier competitive whale, I'm pretty sure I outgear normals rather heavily. I still run brotherhood of the sword normal daily for the quick & easy marks.
So unless they're an TRIBBLE about how much they "pwn" the pve dragons and are carrying everyone, would you rather have people who can guarantee a quick and easy run, or have an entire team of undergeared people who fail to activate the devices so many times, the STF just advances anyway?
No offense but telling people they're not allowed in a particular feature of the game is crossing the line. If you want to create an elite group, that's what custom channels are for, and that's where your fleet and friends come in.
The community does not need elitist attitude in here. Instead of teaching these people you hate, you push them out. When there are no more players in the game, you blame PWE/Cryptic and not yourself. Have you forgotten that you were once in their position? Or were you so high up there that you think when you first logged-in the game you got one super duper uber ship with XXXXX amount of DPS? Unless of course you let someone else play your account or bought it.
Look at the Publics advance queues after the nerf. Still the same population right? Nothing significant has changed since the advance nerf. The 0 are still 0 while the popular are still popular.
The majority of players are casual, in that they don't come on here, aren't in a fleet and don't know or care what their DPS is. So these players are just going to be put off from the game by being banned from areas due to "being noobs" or because they are expected to perform to some arbitrary level of DPS without being told how to get there.
This is the problem with using definitions lightly. If they dont care about DPS, why should they belong in Advance? It is Advance not Normal. They can all still play the game except not the high performance part game. It is the same rationality as players wanting to complete elite. Why do you want to complete elite when you are not capable of doing Elite when you very well know there are lower tier missions.
While I'm hardly a top-tier competitive whale, I'm pretty sure I outgear normals rather heavily. I still run brotherhood of the sword normal daily for the quick & easy marks.
In Pugs, Normal rewards nowadays are better than Advance rewards thanks due in part to the nerf. If you are a farmer, doing Advance in public queues is unpractical for farming purposes.
No offense but telling people they're not allowed in a particular feature of the game is crossing the line. If you want to create an elite group, that's what custom channels are for, and that's where your fleet and friends come in.
The community does not need elitist attitude in here. Instead of teaching these people you hate, you push them out. When there are no more players in the game, you blame PWE/Cryptic and not yourself. Have you forgotten that you were once in their position? Or were you so high up there that you think when you first logged-in the game you got one super duper uber ship with XXXXX amount of DPS? Unless of course you let someone else play your account or bought it.
Players can still got to Normal. The problem isnt Elitism. It is Spoiled and Self Entitlement. Players who think they belong in Advance demanding they belong in Advance without improvement even though they dont belong in Advance. it is funny that Elitism for you is a stigma but Spoiled and Self Entitlement aint.
What makes you think they demand "they belong in Advance without improvement"? Tell me, how would they know they need to "improve", as you have repeated a lot of times, if you will demand that they stay out of the game's system? How will they know if you don't teach them in a friendly manner instead of pushing them out?
Again, it's a game feature. No one in the community has any right to dictate who goes where and which features they want to use.
And I'll repeat myself, you were once a newbie in STO and in MMO in general. You never knew these things. Go back and look behind you, you'll see yourself where you started. These people that you despise so much because they seem to make your life harder, deserves someone to be patient with them and teach them, people like you who seems to know a lot about the game already.
Last but not the least, if you are so keen on shunning them the opportunity to learn and use the feature of the game called "Advance Queue", go create your own private channel or create a new fleet where your requirements are TRIBBLE amount minimum DPS, instead of doing PUGs and complain about it.
Yeah it's a little bit daft to expect players in the pug PVE matches to be at the same level as those in private queues and fleet matches.
The pug groups are pulling players from the many 1000's online at anyone time and that could be anyone from Lvl. 60 veterans to fresh Lvl. 50 first time players. So what you get in a pug group can have such a massive range of skill and ability to expect them all to be up to your arbitrary level of ability is ridiculous.
If you want a match with like minded and equally skilled players then private queues are the way to go, unless you are willing to accept that not everyone in a pug will be up to your standard.
Yes 10K DPS migt be fairly easy to get with basic gear if you have knowledge of the game mechanics but where in STO does it actually advise you on those things? Or where does it give you a means of measuring your DPS?
Plus there's also the fact that not everyone who can do 10K will actually have an "effective DPS" of 10K, because knowing where, when and what to shoot will be the difference between winning ISA and killing a generator too early and failing the mission.
Anyone can spam BFAW at invulnerable targets for 10 mins and get a high DPS number but that means nothing whatsoever if they don't know how to apply that DPS to the correct targets so as not to fail the mission.
No offense but telling people they're not allowed in a particular feature of the game is crossing the line. If you want to create an elite group, that's what custom channels are for, and that's where your fleet and friends come in.
It's curious, that folks pull out the "elitist" card for the most basic and trivial things. If they're a man, and they walk into a woman's restroom, do they whine at the woman suggesting they use the male restroom that the woman is being an elitist? Bad analogy? How so? There are signs above or on the doors to the restrooms, no? There are Normal, Advanced, and Elite queues. Pretty straight forward. Folks pointing to the signs aren't telling people they're not allowed...folks ignoring the signs should have been paying attention in the first place. But hey, if they were paying attention in the first place, there wouldn't have been an issue in the first place.
Now, if somebody's hanging out there outside the men's restroom and telling guys with mustaches to go away...there would be a problem, yeah? If somebody's hanging outside the ladies and telling women they can't use the facilities because their purse doesn't match their shoes...there would be a problem, yeah?
Folks pointing to the signs for Normal, Advanced, and Elite...that's not a problem.
Folks ignoring those signs for Normal, Advanced, and Elite...now that's a problem.
Attacking the folks pointing to the signs while defending the folks ignoring the signs...
...that's priceless. It's a complete lolgasm.
edit: It's like the following...
Somebody's doing 1-2k DPS, has no clue about the map, has no clue about the objectives, and so forth. How is suggesting that Advanced is not the place for them being an elitist?
Somebody's doing 6-7k DPS, is moving around the map like they've been there before, is working toward the objectives, and so forth. Somebody complaining that they're not doing 10-20k DPS and shouldn't be there? Now you're talking about somebody doing that elitism thing.
Don't confuse the former with the latter - many of the former will join in with anybody else in mocking the latter and telling them to go find some private or channel run if they want everybody doing something at a certain level above and beyond what the content might require as well as the listed difficulty of the particular run.
8k-10k dps is uber easy to obtain without needing mkxiv epic gear, super uber easy and, is about all that is needed to accomplish advanced missions also!
A bold claim. I'm not necessarily disputing it, just suggesting that it could be questionable. How about throwing up a build on STO Academy that is a "Guaranteed" uber easyAND cheap 10k build, hmmm?
..
I do agree however that 8-10k is all that's really required for each member of a pre-made, and can be enough if you get a "good" PuG. A couple of us sometimes PuG ISA just for laughs and the challenge. One of us will be in a recluse or nebula, throwing out heals, CC's and debuffs, the other will be a 20k~40k DPS boat.
Sometimes it's a clean fast run, because everyone knows the drill, and has the 'deeps'. But sometimes, the only thing saving the run is the two of us controlling spheres, and taking out generators. <shrug> But that's why we do it
I have thrown up a few but, there are dozens already there, just waiting for players to mimic. It's just many players, are still oblivious to using such helpful information, that is right at their fingertips. It's like they are searching the internet, without so much as a taskbar/search engine/search bar/etc... Guess how far that gets them? For some, it's not an issue but, for others it is until they learn and/or, are taught what they need know but, than you have those still aimlessly wandering around never figuring it out it seems!
The worst, are those who want the game constantly dwindled down, instead of them seeking to increase their own potential!!!
What I find freaking hilarious is that Advanced doesn't have a damned thing to do with "challenge".
Because of the tight timers and crazy HP boosts of the NPCs, it's nothing more than a DPS-o-rama to quickly kill all of the mooks before the timer runs out.
What I consider a "challenge" isn't fly in, blast mooks, get rewards, and fly out. Which is the way it was before, just now it's only for the PuGgers with above-average to high DPS. Or people who only run in pre-made teams with friends, who can put together a decent, balanced team and can communicate (which rarely happens in PuGs).
No, a challenge is an enemy AI that uses abilities, debuffs, buffs, and some tactics. Not HP sponges that amount to nothing more than mark farming for high-geared players, trying to beat the clock. I was highly disappointed when Cryptic went that route (although plenty speculated that was exactly what they were going to do).
My DPS is what most would call above average, rather than high (I go for a balance of survival and firepower, I don't believe in "glass cannons" or "flying bricks"). So, that isn't an issue. The problem is that I mostly PuGged back in the day, since that was the most time efficient way to get my runs in. Now? I'm just grateful that Cryptic allows you to trade in marks for elite marks, since PuGs became unfriendly to so-called "n00bs", and only for us that have the time and gear under our belts to consistently pull it off (making it worth our time and effort).
The "elitists" need to understand that to get a little, sometimes you have to give a little. If that means catering to those who either lack the gear, or who haven't yet a clue, then so be it. Push for more elite queues instead of claiming advanced (intermediate level) as your own personal farming domain, and pushing away up and coming players with your TRIBBLE attitudes.
The "elitists" need to understand that to get a little, sometimes you have to give a little. If that means catering to those who either lack the gear, or who haven't yet a clue, then so be it. Push for more elite queues instead of claiming advanced (intermediate level) as your own personal farming domain, and pushing away up and coming players with your TRIBBLE attitudes.
Where are these boogeymen?
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,581Community Moderator
My DPS is what most would call above average, rather than high (I go for a balance of survival and firepower, I don't believe in "glass cannons" or "flying bricks"). So, that isn't an issue. The problem is that I mostly PuGged back in the day, since that was the most time efficient way to get my runs in. Now? I'm just grateful that Cryptic allows you to trade in marks for elite marks, since PuGs became unfriendly to so-called "n00bs", and only for us that have the time and gear under our belts to consistently pull it off (making it worth our time and effort).
The "elitists" need to understand that to get a little, sometimes you have to give a little. If that means catering to those who either lack the gear, or who haven't yet a clue, then so be it. Push for more elite queues instead of claiming advanced (intermediate level) as your own personal farming domain, and pushing away up and coming players with your TRIBBLE attitudes.
And this was the point I've been trying to make since posting in this thread. Everyone ranting about "n00bs" seems to forget that not everyone is automatically as "Badass" as an elite, and would rather punish them then do anything else. I got a Scryer that can probably manage 3K DPS, but I built her to be less of a DPSboat and more of a control boat for team purposes. What if you ran into someone who had a similar build that knew how to play the STF? You gonna ban them for not meeting a DPS requirement when they happen to be holding a group of Nanite Spheres and giving everyone else time to kill the Transformer?
This "DPS or GTFO" elitest mentality drives me up a wall. Not everyone is gonna meet that "percieved minimum level". Learn to Adapt. If Cryptic wanted to lock people out of a queue, they would have set a level requirement like they do the Elite queues.
We're still waiting on the Elite Borg STFs though. Why they haven't released those I don't know. But that doesn't mean Advanced automatically becomes an exclusive club for high damage rollers alone. Got a problem with someone not performing on your level? Alright. I respect that and respect your opinions. But don't take it out on that player or others like that player. Everyone was that player at some point.
Everyone ranting about "n00bs" seems to forget that not everyone is automatically as "Badass" as an elite, and would rather punish them then do anything else.
Um, but it's not the folks pointing out that there are Normal, Advanced, and Elite queues that are forgetting that...are they? Cause, you know, they're pointing out the progression there. They haven't forgotten anything. They remember the progression that they went through whether it was leading up to Normal and making their way to Elite or if it was leading up to Normal, making their way to Advanced, and possibly making their way to Elite.
It's something that can get very frustrating in discussing...because...it's basically a lolwut???
I mean seriously...you're accusing the folks of suggesting Normal folks do Normal, Advanced folks do Advanced, and Elite folks of doing Elite of having forgotten that not everyone is automatically Elite.
Tom: Hi, I'm a cat.
Jerry: No you're not, you're a cat.
It's just epic lolwut??? all over the place...meh.
They're not the folks that have forgotten or don't realize that not everyone is automatically Elite...
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,581Community Moderator
Dude... Virus... I respect you man. But some of those people are making it sound like Advanced queues are an exclusive club where you MUST, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, meet x stat that is not easy to learn. Banning people who don't meet a DPS number? They take the elitism a bit far. I can get to 10k DPS in my Phantom, but I fly my Scryer... under those rules I would be locked out forever or something. And most of them are sounding like "Learn2Play n00b GTFO mah farmin' zone!" They aren't fostering a friendly environment for people to figure things out. They are wanting to discourage people who are not performing at a percieved level from even being there AT ALL so they can go about farming their marks on Advanced. In short, they are treating Advanced like Elite since the Borg STFs have no Elite level yet.
I'm not arguing with what's being said per se. Its HOW its being said. Downright hostile in some cases. Also... this is STO. Practically out of the frying pan into the fire. Normal does not prepare for Advanced, and Advanced does not prepare for Elite.
In one case (Korfez) there IS no Normal or Advanced.
It's possible that over the years I ended up just tuning folks out or tuning out certain "spice" added to what they were saying. Some folks, though, I don't see them as being anything other than blunt. The folks that go all out with fullblown /facepalms...meh, they generally kill a discussion, cause everybody (the guy doing 5k or 50k) ends up being an elitist if they mention the 1-2k shouldn't be in Advanced. But in the end, it's just folks being blunt and honest...and...it ticks folks off.
Take your Scryer for example...3k with crowd control, yeah? Take five folks doing that in an ISA...and...yeah, it's not going to work. You get to around the 4th or 5th Gravity Well and those Nanite Spheres shoot across the map like they've been shot with a rubberband. It's kind of trippy and likely a bug.
Say the group drops the four Generators perfectly and then focuses on the Transformer. The time for the Nanite Spheres to move from the Gateway to a range where the objective fails is fixed. So that's a simple calculation for the required DPS to complete that objective. Gens don't get dropped perfectly, well, you've got to work that into the calculation. How many runs out there have 20-30s between the first and last Gen getting dropped, eh? That's before any work gets started on the Transformer. Somebody burns their crowd control because of the premature Gen, they're not going to have it for the actual destruction of the Transformer. All sorts of things can cause all sorts of complications to things.
Some folks have gone with an average of 7.5k per player (that's an overall 7.5k, more would have to be applied to the Trans)...while some have said a team working well together can do it with somewhere between 6-6.5k (again, that's overall). Let's look at the 7.5k per player, eh? That's a total of 37.5k...something like the following.
A) 7500 7500
C) 7500
D) 7500
E) 7500
Total) 37500
Now, I'm not sure how you do your CC with the Scryer (do you continue to engage or do you drop some CC and head back to the Trans). But how that's done is going to matter...cause one isn't any damage being done to the Trans while one is. And in the end there, the Trans has to be destroyed. 3k that's not being applied to the Trans is the same as 0k being applied to the Trans. It's just zero damage...sure, the CC is going to be buying some time for the other four players - but the zero damage has to be factored into that equation as well. On the other hand, if it's drop and run back, well, that travel time back and forth's going to factor into overall DPS and one would expect it to be lower.
But let's replace E with a 1500 player. What's that do for us?
A) 7500 7500
C) 7500
D) 7500
E) 1500
Total) 31500
We're 6000 short. Players A-D will have to make that up. Could split it at 9000 a pop or whatever, but that 6000 deficit has to be made up.
But let's replace D with a 2500 player. What's that do for us?
A) 7500 7500
C) 7500
D) 2500
E) 1500
Total) 26500
We're 11000 short now. Players A-C will have to make that up. Player A could do 11500 with Players B-C doing 11000 or whatever, but that 11000 deficit has to be made up.
But let's replace C with a 4000 player. What's that do for us?
A) 7500 7500
C) 4000
D) 2500
E) 1500
Total) 23000
We're 14500 short now. Players A-B will have to make that up. Could split it at 14750 a pop or whatever, but that 14500 deficit has to be made up.
But let's keep B as a 7500 player. That means A has to pick up the 14500 and do 22000. So we'll be looking at the following:
A) 22000 7500
C) 4000
D) 2500
E) 1500
Total) 37500
Though it's likely going to fail for other reasons.
Say we go with the OP's 5k minimum though, yeah? And we run our group with the following:
A) 8000 6000
C) 5500
D) 5000
E) 5000
Total) 29500
That's 8000 short. Thing is...with some teamwork and CC, that group although it doesn't have a guarantee - it's at least got a guaranteed chance with what it has. They don't need some 20k+ player to maybe give them a shot. A group of five players at 5k...well, one would have to hope not to have a group where everybody was at the bare minimum.
It's not a guarantee...it's not farming...it's just a chance, a fair shot. It's not asking one player to carry more than half the load compared to the four other players or anything like that.
Somebody wanting everybody to do 10k+ by comparison? That's 50k+...that's 12.5k additional...that's looking at farming. That's getting into that quick 'n easy stuff. 20k per person? That's 100k compared to 37.5k...etc, etc, etc.
In a game where folks are doing 10k, 20k, 30k, 50k, 75k, 100k+...asking for 5k as a minimum for Advanced...isn't really asking all that much.
edit: I'm not going to fix those smileys, and it's damn annoying not to see a way to disable smileys to avoid that...bah.
Comments
They have been playing for 5 years and forgot - or even don't know how it is to start now - that there were times they hadn't known? They assume something is obvious to everyone, because it's obvious to them? They were learning the tricks together with others learning tricks, because it was new to everybody?
Personally I have met only helpful people, or indifferent (but not hostile) in the game, but from the forum I can see that not everyone is like that. I dread the first time my head is torn off my shoulders for not meeting someone's perceived minimum. :P
To be clear: I don't do any STFs above Normal, because I know I'm not ready, but even Normal can be stressful, when it's the very first time, while the others do it brazillionth and can get through with closed eyes.
I completely agree.
Honestly, i believe it's because of the stigma associated with being 'good' at a game.
I play alot of counter strike, and over there it goes like this
Not as good as someone : Useless Noob.
Better than someone : Sad Nerd who plays the game to much.
It's a stupid concept, because we are all playing the same game here. People always want to be better than someone else, so despite, as you said - tonnes of information being available to everyone some people refuse to learn, because it's simply a low effort way to assert themselves as superior.
I disagree with the reason you are saying is responsible for the "Nerf".
I was able to regurlarly complete the old elite level STFs before. Needed someone to hold off probes in Kitomer Elite? I'll park in a good spot and mow 'em down. Even in a cruiser I could dump Warp Plasma, and be confident I could take them down. When they changed things over to the newer system... even veterans like myself (and I started playing about a month before F2P) were struggling to dent things because they not only buffed the difficulty level of what they said would be the equivelent of the old Elite, they made them frickin' HP Sponges, encouraging the DPS or GTFO mentality. Unless you dumped a crapload of resources into upgrading your gear, you were relegated to "n00b" status again, and in some cases, veterans were berated for not having "the deeps" to compete and told to "Learn2Play" because of it.
They didn't nerf things as much as change what the objectives were. They did scale the enemy HP down to a more reasonable level, but the main thing was the objectives changed. Now its not so daunting that we need Elite ready gear for Advanced anymore.
What I suggested was to provide another resource for players who want to learn. Some people won't know about channels, may not have many friends, and may not be in a "quality" fleet or even in a fleet at all.
Look at your attitude and your mentality. You want to play a level 60 NPC at the level of a level 50 NPC.
You refuse to learn how to beat those at that level. Beating those is so easy. VD already stated there is a slight increase in DPS, wherein the DPS less than 10% of the maximum potential in advance. DPS is one those things they can excuse and blame for their personal shortcomings or laziness.
Veterans /= competence. A lot of the first complaints I saw in the ISA wherein that mission there success only happens when someone does a Grav well. They become frustrated. Why not bring Grave well themselves? Why complain about "fail optionals" when optionals dont fail you?
It clearly shows, refusal to improve even by a slightest knowing that the NPC is 10 levels above the previous elite nor expect the objectives to be static as it were years ago.
You dont need elite gear to do advance before the nerf. You can use common gear, mk 12 gear, with all pre DR stuff, level 50 with no specs at all to complete advance.
Those players need to be able accept to learn. Your assumption everyone is willing to learn is wrong. Look at your wording, Even your ignorance that pre nerf Advance needs elite gear shows what level of your knowledge in this game is. You yourself refuse to accept that one needs improvement by not recognizing that the problem of the former advance queue is the player rather than advance queue.
None of this is true, I haven't even bothered with upgrades to gear and, I get by perfectly fine with even mk xi gear no less. Heck, you got people doing it with less than mkxi, using even common gear so, this is no excuse at all for ANYONE!
8k-10k dps is uber easy to obtain without needing mkxiv epic gear, super uber easy and, is about all that is needed to accomplish advanced missions also!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
A bold claim. I'm not necessarily disputing it, just suggesting that it could be questionable. How about throwing up a build on STO Academy that is a "Guaranteed" uber easy AND cheap 10k build, hmmm?
..
I do agree however that 8-10k is all that's really required for each member of a pre-made, and can be enough if you get a "good" PuG. A couple of us sometimes PuG ISA just for laughs and the challenge. One of us will be in a recluse or nebula, throwing out heals, CC's and debuffs, the other will be a 20k~40k DPS boat.
Sometimes it's a clean fast run, because everyone knows the drill, and has the 'deeps'. But sometimes, the only thing saving the run is the two of us controlling spheres, and taking out generators. <shrug> But that's why we do it
I have thrown up a few but, there are dozens already there, just waiting for players to mimic. It's just many players, are still oblivious to using such helpful information, that is right at their fingertips. It's like they are searching the internet, without so much as a taskbar/search engine/search bar/etc... Guess how far that gets them? For some, it's not an issue but, for others it is until they learn and/or, are taught what they need know but, than you have those still aimlessly wandering around never figuring it out it seems!
The worst, are those who want the game constantly dwindled down, instead of them seeking to increase their own potential!!!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
For Advanced, 8-10k is overkill...even that much is not needed. Well, I don't recall the numbers for HSA - but HSA might as well be an Elite compared to the other Advanced queues (that's Hive, btw, for anybody reading along and not sure if I was talking about Hive or Herald). It's nifty to have some buffer/padding, no doubt, cause you're going to have those folks showing up doing less and folks will have to cover for them or the odds of failing increase - it's an undue burden that those folks place on other members of the team by not contributing.
As for anybody being able to post a guaranteed 10k build...they can't. It's not just the build...it's what the player is doing with it and who they're running with. The folks doing 50-100k+ aren't running 50-100k+ builds...cause you can drop those same builds out to a group of other players and get nowhere near that DPS.
Somebody averaging 125 Weapon Power vs. somebody averaging 75 Weapon Power is going to do twice the DPS. Each point of Weapon Power is a 2% final boost to damage...50 points is a 100% increase in damage.
Somebody that's engaged with targets 80% of the time vs. somebody that's engaged 40% of the time, everything else the same...they've doubled their DPS.
The range at which somebody engages, is also going to affect it. With these stupid forums, I can't hunt down the post for it (was so simple before, Keyword = maelwys & Poster = bareel...voila, bareel's post linking to the spreadsheet from maelwys with the range penalties for Beams and Cannons). I remember that Beams are 64% damage (so -36% damage) at 10km. Somebody at 10km is going to do less DPS than somebody at 5km...etc, etc, etc.
There's going to be buff/debuff efficiency. If somebody's wasting buffs/debuffs, triggering them too early or too late - that's going to affect their DPS in an adverse manner. If they're only effectively using their APA 30% of the time, they're not going to do the DPS of somebody using it more efficiently and effectively for example.
That also gets into the team, since the team will be dropping out buffs/debuffs. If somebody's running with a team that handles that better, they'll have higher DPS than they would from the team that doesn't.
The majority of DPS issues have little to do with the build when it comes to meeting those minimal (compared to potential) DPS requirements the content might have for doing certain objectives. The majority of the issues are with the player. You can take two players in the exact same build, and one might end up nowhere near 10k while the other is over 100k. Two folks can apply the same upgrades to their boats, and they will see the same increase - but because that increase is a percentage increase over what was there, somebody doing 3k isn't going to get the same amount of an increase as somebody that was doing 30k...same percentage, but not the same amount.
Gets into the tinfoil hat area of why Cryptic does such a bad job of explaining things and providing so little feedback in game...cause if players realized just how little they were getting out of their upgrades, they wouldn't put all the effort in, spend all the resources, potentially spend the money to make those upgrades.
At the end of the day, a player can throw whatever they want into the build...but until they learn to play, it's not going to do them much good. At the same time, somebody that's learned to play a bit, will be overkill for the content without having to do any of the upgrades.
Imagine if Cryptic did a decent job with tooltips, explaining things, had Academy missions explaining things, had missions that offered feedback, etc, etc, etc...imagine all the folks flying around doing 50-100k+ DPS for content that requires 6-7k from players.
It definitely kind of trippy...even the changes to the queues feed the tinfoil hat thing if one thinks about it.
No it will just drive them away to other games.
The majority of players are casual, in that they don't come on here, aren't in a fleet and don't know or care what their DPS is. So these players are just going to be put off from the game by being banned from areas due to "being noobs" or because they are expected to perform to some arbitrary level of DPS without being told how to get there.
This game is atrocious at explaining how to play, even basic mechanics and interactions with kit & skills need a university degree to understand. You roll through the SP content and have little in the way of guidance. Then try out PVE queues at normal and find them a cake-walk.
Then you roll into advanced because you think you are quite good and suddenly the game throws you a curve ball and you have no idea anymore. And if players are going to kick you or ban you from content or slag you off for not magically learning every aspect of the game then you will be put off.
Also, you could make your post actually useful (instead of a whine) by telling people how to check their dps. As plenty of others have already stated, the average person doesn't really think about this, much less have any idea how to check it.
It's one of the things, I think, folks have mentioned asking for in the past that's been ignored like so many other things.
Something where...
Normal - Not Advanced - Not Elite
Not Normal - Advanced - Not Elite
Not Normal - Not Advanced - Elite
...for the public queues and whatever for the private.
So unless they're an TRIBBLE about how much they "pwn" the pve dragons and are carrying everyone, would you rather have people who can guarantee a quick and easy run, or have an entire team of undergeared people who fail to activate the devices so many times, the STF just advances anyway?
*comment is totally out of context, but I'm totally drunk so I don't care*
The community does not need elitist attitude in here. Instead of teaching these people you hate, you push them out. When there are no more players in the game, you blame PWE/Cryptic and not yourself. Have you forgotten that you were once in their position? Or were you so high up there that you think when you first logged-in the game you got one super duper uber ship with XXXXX amount of DPS? Unless of course you let someone else play your account or bought it.
[ Blog: YOOki Chronicles ]
[ Verify me: Keybase | OpenPGP ]
"Someone should do a story where a Horta meets a Vorta. And then they find a portal to Vorta-Vor and become immortal. Sorta." ~Christopher L. Bennett
Look at the Publics advance queues after the nerf. Still the same population right? Nothing significant has changed since the advance nerf. The 0 are still 0 while the popular are still popular.
This is the problem with using definitions lightly. If they dont care about DPS, why should they belong in Advance? It is Advance not Normal. They can all still play the game except not the high performance part game. It is the same rationality as players wanting to complete elite. Why do you want to complete elite when you are not capable of doing Elite when you very well know there are lower tier missions.
In Pugs, Normal rewards nowadays are better than Advance rewards thanks due in part to the nerf. If you are a farmer, doing Advance in public queues is unpractical for farming purposes.
Players can still got to Normal. The problem isnt Elitism. It is Spoiled and Self Entitlement. Players who think they belong in Advance demanding they belong in Advance without improvement even though they dont belong in Advance. it is funny that Elitism for you is a stigma but Spoiled and Self Entitlement aint.
Again, it's a game feature. No one in the community has any right to dictate who goes where and which features they want to use.
And I'll repeat myself, you were once a newbie in STO and in MMO in general. You never knew these things. Go back and look behind you, you'll see yourself where you started. These people that you despise so much because they seem to make your life harder, deserves someone to be patient with them and teach them, people like you who seems to know a lot about the game already.
Last but not the least, if you are so keen on shunning them the opportunity to learn and use the feature of the game called "Advance Queue", go create your own private channel or create a new fleet where your requirements are TRIBBLE amount minimum DPS, instead of doing PUGs and complain about it.
[ Blog: YOOki Chronicles ]
[ Verify me: Keybase | OpenPGP ]
"Someone should do a story where a Horta meets a Vorta. And then they find a portal to Vorta-Vor and become immortal. Sorta." ~Christopher L. Bennett
The pug groups are pulling players from the many 1000's online at anyone time and that could be anyone from Lvl. 60 veterans to fresh Lvl. 50 first time players. So what you get in a pug group can have such a massive range of skill and ability to expect them all to be up to your arbitrary level of ability is ridiculous.
If you want a match with like minded and equally skilled players then private queues are the way to go, unless you are willing to accept that not everyone in a pug will be up to your standard.
Yes 10K DPS migt be fairly easy to get with basic gear if you have knowledge of the game mechanics but where in STO does it actually advise you on those things? Or where does it give you a means of measuring your DPS?
Plus there's also the fact that not everyone who can do 10K will actually have an "effective DPS" of 10K, because knowing where, when and what to shoot will be the difference between winning ISA and killing a generator too early and failing the mission.
Anyone can spam BFAW at invulnerable targets for 10 mins and get a high DPS number but that means nothing whatsoever if they don't know how to apply that DPS to the correct targets so as not to fail the mission.
It's curious, that folks pull out the "elitist" card for the most basic and trivial things. If they're a man, and they walk into a woman's restroom, do they whine at the woman suggesting they use the male restroom that the woman is being an elitist? Bad analogy? How so? There are signs above or on the doors to the restrooms, no? There are Normal, Advanced, and Elite queues. Pretty straight forward. Folks pointing to the signs aren't telling people they're not allowed...folks ignoring the signs should have been paying attention in the first place. But hey, if they were paying attention in the first place, there wouldn't have been an issue in the first place.
Now, if somebody's hanging out there outside the men's restroom and telling guys with mustaches to go away...there would be a problem, yeah? If somebody's hanging outside the ladies and telling women they can't use the facilities because their purse doesn't match their shoes...there would be a problem, yeah?
Folks pointing to the signs for Normal, Advanced, and Elite...that's not a problem.
Folks ignoring those signs for Normal, Advanced, and Elite...now that's a problem.
Attacking the folks pointing to the signs while defending the folks ignoring the signs...
...that's priceless. It's a complete lolgasm.
edit: It's like the following...
Somebody's doing 1-2k DPS, has no clue about the map, has no clue about the objectives, and so forth. How is suggesting that Advanced is not the place for them being an elitist?
Somebody's doing 6-7k DPS, is moving around the map like they've been there before, is working toward the objectives, and so forth. Somebody complaining that they're not doing 10-20k DPS and shouldn't be there? Now you're talking about somebody doing that elitism thing.
Don't confuse the former with the latter - many of the former will join in with anybody else in mocking the latter and telling them to go find some private or channel run if they want everybody doing something at a certain level above and beyond what the content might require as well as the listed difficulty of the particular run.
Links to builds please.
Because of the tight timers and crazy HP boosts of the NPCs, it's nothing more than a DPS-o-rama to quickly kill all of the mooks before the timer runs out.
What I consider a "challenge" isn't fly in, blast mooks, get rewards, and fly out. Which is the way it was before, just now it's only for the PuGgers with above-average to high DPS. Or people who only run in pre-made teams with friends, who can put together a decent, balanced team and can communicate (which rarely happens in PuGs).
No, a challenge is an enemy AI that uses abilities, debuffs, buffs, and some tactics. Not HP sponges that amount to nothing more than mark farming for high-geared players, trying to beat the clock. I was highly disappointed when Cryptic went that route (although plenty speculated that was exactly what they were going to do).
My DPS is what most would call above average, rather than high (I go for a balance of survival and firepower, I don't believe in "glass cannons" or "flying bricks"). So, that isn't an issue. The problem is that I mostly PuGged back in the day, since that was the most time efficient way to get my runs in. Now? I'm just grateful that Cryptic allows you to trade in marks for elite marks, since PuGs became unfriendly to so-called "n00bs", and only for us that have the time and gear under our belts to consistently pull it off (making it worth our time and effort).
The "elitists" need to understand that to get a little, sometimes you have to give a little. If that means catering to those who either lack the gear, or who haven't yet a clue, then so be it. Push for more elite queues instead of claiming advanced (intermediate level) as your own personal farming domain, and pushing away up and coming players with your TRIBBLE attitudes.
Where are these boogeymen?
And this was the point I've been trying to make since posting in this thread. Everyone ranting about "n00bs" seems to forget that not everyone is automatically as "Badass" as an elite, and would rather punish them then do anything else. I got a Scryer that can probably manage 3K DPS, but I built her to be less of a DPSboat and more of a control boat for team purposes. What if you ran into someone who had a similar build that knew how to play the STF? You gonna ban them for not meeting a DPS requirement when they happen to be holding a group of Nanite Spheres and giving everyone else time to kill the Transformer?
This "DPS or GTFO" elitest mentality drives me up a wall. Not everyone is gonna meet that "percieved minimum level". Learn to Adapt. If Cryptic wanted to lock people out of a queue, they would have set a level requirement like they do the Elite queues.
We're still waiting on the Elite Borg STFs though. Why they haven't released those I don't know. But that doesn't mean Advanced automatically becomes an exclusive club for high damage rollers alone. Got a problem with someone not performing on your level? Alright. I respect that and respect your opinions. But don't take it out on that player or others like that player. Everyone was that player at some point.
Um, but it's not the folks pointing out that there are Normal, Advanced, and Elite queues that are forgetting that...are they? Cause, you know, they're pointing out the progression there. They haven't forgotten anything. They remember the progression that they went through whether it was leading up to Normal and making their way to Elite or if it was leading up to Normal, making their way to Advanced, and possibly making their way to Elite.
It's something that can get very frustrating in discussing...because...it's basically a lolwut???
I mean seriously...you're accusing the folks of suggesting Normal folks do Normal, Advanced folks do Advanced, and Elite folks of doing Elite of having forgotten that not everyone is automatically Elite.
Tom: Hi, I'm a cat.
Jerry: No you're not, you're a cat.
It's just epic lolwut??? all over the place...meh.
They're not the folks that have forgotten or don't realize that not everyone is automatically Elite...
I'm not arguing with what's being said per se. Its HOW its being said. Downright hostile in some cases. Also... this is STO. Practically out of the frying pan into the fire. Normal does not prepare for Advanced, and Advanced does not prepare for Elite.
In one case (Korfez) there IS no Normal or Advanced.
Take your Scryer for example...3k with crowd control, yeah? Take five folks doing that in an ISA...and...yeah, it's not going to work. You get to around the 4th or 5th Gravity Well and those Nanite Spheres shoot across the map like they've been shot with a rubberband. It's kind of trippy and likely a bug.
Say the group drops the four Generators perfectly and then focuses on the Transformer. The time for the Nanite Spheres to move from the Gateway to a range where the objective fails is fixed. So that's a simple calculation for the required DPS to complete that objective. Gens don't get dropped perfectly, well, you've got to work that into the calculation. How many runs out there have 20-30s between the first and last Gen getting dropped, eh? That's before any work gets started on the Transformer. Somebody burns their crowd control because of the premature Gen, they're not going to have it for the actual destruction of the Transformer. All sorts of things can cause all sorts of complications to things.
Some folks have gone with an average of 7.5k per player (that's an overall 7.5k, more would have to be applied to the Trans)...while some have said a team working well together can do it with somewhere between 6-6.5k (again, that's overall). Let's look at the 7.5k per player, eh? That's a total of 37.5k...something like the following.
A) 7500
C) 7500
D) 7500
E) 7500
Total) 37500
Now, I'm not sure how you do your CC with the Scryer (do you continue to engage or do you drop some CC and head back to the Trans). But how that's done is going to matter...cause one isn't any damage being done to the Trans while one is. And in the end there, the Trans has to be destroyed. 3k that's not being applied to the Trans is the same as 0k being applied to the Trans. It's just zero damage...sure, the CC is going to be buying some time for the other four players - but the zero damage has to be factored into that equation as well. On the other hand, if it's drop and run back, well, that travel time back and forth's going to factor into overall DPS and one would expect it to be lower.
But let's replace E with a 1500 player. What's that do for us?
A) 7500
C) 7500
D) 7500
E) 1500
Total) 31500
We're 6000 short. Players A-D will have to make that up. Could split it at 9000 a pop or whatever, but that 6000 deficit has to be made up.
But let's replace D with a 2500 player. What's that do for us?
A) 7500
C) 7500
D) 2500
E) 1500
Total) 26500
We're 11000 short now. Players A-C will have to make that up. Player A could do 11500 with Players B-C doing 11000 or whatever, but that 11000 deficit has to be made up.
But let's replace C with a 4000 player. What's that do for us?
A) 7500
C) 4000
D) 2500
E) 1500
Total) 23000
We're 14500 short now. Players A-B will have to make that up. Could split it at 14750 a pop or whatever, but that 14500 deficit has to be made up.
But let's keep B as a 7500 player. That means A has to pick up the 14500 and do 22000. So we'll be looking at the following:
A) 22000
C) 4000
D) 2500
E) 1500
Total) 37500
Though it's likely going to fail for other reasons.
Say we go with the OP's 5k minimum though, yeah? And we run our group with the following:
A) 8000
C) 5500
D) 5000
E) 5000
Total) 29500
That's 8000 short. Thing is...with some teamwork and CC, that group although it doesn't have a guarantee - it's at least got a guaranteed chance with what it has. They don't need some 20k+ player to maybe give them a shot. A group of five players at 5k...well, one would have to hope not to have a group where everybody was at the bare minimum.
It's not a guarantee...it's not farming...it's just a chance, a fair shot. It's not asking one player to carry more than half the load compared to the four other players or anything like that.
Somebody wanting everybody to do 10k+ by comparison? That's 50k+...that's 12.5k additional...that's looking at farming. That's getting into that quick 'n easy stuff. 20k per person? That's 100k compared to 37.5k...etc, etc, etc.
In a game where folks are doing 10k, 20k, 30k, 50k, 75k, 100k+...asking for 5k as a minimum for Advanced...isn't really asking all that much.
edit: I'm not going to fix those smileys, and it's damn annoying not to see a way to disable smileys to avoid that...bah.