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Hur'q vs. Klingons; Science career path.

karmogkarmog Member Posts: 115 Arc User
edited June 2015 in Klingon Discussion
With numerous discussions on the subject, many trekkies still cling to the idea that Klingons are "nothing but savages and barbarians, who stole their technology from the Hur'q". The franchise only encourages such conclusions with its own examples.

Kurak:
Kurak was played by Tricia O'Neil, who applied a pre-existing knowledge of Klingons while playing the role. She said about the character, "I knew the difficulty this particular Klingon was involved in because she was advancing. She had the great weight on her shoulders of being intelligent, of being a scientist, and she was crossing barriers. But she was still a Klingon, so she was very… not savage, but physical, where a lot of muscle was still involved, even though she was crossing over into being a scientist."

Bat'leth:
Introduced in "Reunion", the bat'leth was originally inspired by comments from Worf actor Michael Dorn, as he wanted his character's fighting style to be more martial arts than barbarian.

Looking at the actors' voiced thought processes, can you guess what "pre-existing knowledge of Klingons" was given to them as a background?

One of the most common statements in various discussions on the subject is that "Klingons drove off the Hur'q invaders and reverse-engineered their advanced technology."

The obvious questions are "HOW?" and "WITH WHAT?" Sticks and stones? Bat'leths?

Maybe THIS is how Klingons stopped the Hur'q? Yea, I know how the film ends and what it took to get there; it still doesn't invalidate the scene.

This is the reason why the KDF science career path suffers in STO and why there are few to no choices of science vessels for the faction, especially of the Klingon design; not the "poor sales" excuse given by Cryptic, considering the past offerings.

The real reason, as indicated by the franchise's background concepts, is the CBS controlled propaganda to portray Klingons as "dumb savages" to make the UFP (Starfleet) look better.

The irony is that the dumber Star Trek portrays Klingons, the dumber it makes Starfleet look because even with such portrayal they still, somehow, manage to be a major threat (e.g. TNG: "Yesterday's Enterprise").
Post edited by karmog on

Comments

  • misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    There is actually an entirely different reason for this "Klingons got their tech from the Hur'q" stuff you overlooked: Starfleet Command.

    The thing is that SFC is based on "Star Fleet Battles" (it's the same game only the ships look different). SFB is however set in an entirely different universe and is not even allowed to use the Star Trek name.
    SFC could do so only because Interplay had the Star Trek license.
    So we have a Star Trek game not actually set in the Star Trek universe.
    Anyway back to the history in SFB/SFC
    There the Klingons were conquered by a species called "The Old Kings" that looked like the grey Roswell aliens. The Old Kings employed the Klingons (and various other species) as soldiers and technitians on their ships for decades.
    Then one day the Old Kings started to ship all their "employees" back to their home planets and departed the known galaxy
    They left a few of their obsolete ships in orbit around the Klingon homeworld.
    The Klingons built chemical rockets and sent some folks up there the reactivate them and used them as a basis for their own ships.

    And here's the problem: a lot of people read it and went
    "Old Kings = Hur'q -> Klingons got their tech from the Hur'q"
    *facepalm*
  • trillbuffettrillbuffet Member Posts: 861 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    misterde3 wrote: »
    There is actually an entirely different reason for this "Klingons got their tech from the Hur'q" stuff you overlooked: Starfleet Command.

    The thing is that SFC is based on "Star Fleet Battles" (it's the same game only the ships look different). SFB is however set in an entirely different universe and is not even allowed to use the Star Trek name.
    SFC could do so only because Interplay had the Star Trek license.
    So we have a Star Trek game not actually set in the Star Trek universe.
    Anyway back to the history in SFB/SFC
    There the Klingons were conquered by a species called "The Old Kings" that looked like the grey Roswell aliens. The Old Kings employed the Klingons (and various other species) as soldiers and technitians on their ships for decades.
    Then one day the Old Kings started to ship all their "employees" back to their home planets and departed the known galaxy
    They left a few of their obsolete ships in orbit around the Klingon homeworld.
    The Klingons built chemical rockets and sent some folks up there the reactivate them and used them as a basis for their own ships.

    And here's the problem: a lot of people read it and went
    "Old Kings = Hur'q -> Klingons got their tech from the Hur'q"
    *facepalm*

    Based on this I could see Cryptic's story going forward on this. That the iconians are behind it all like always and that the hur'q were a servitor race that had the fek'ihr as their re-animated such and such "dishonored klingons" that went along with it because they had it hard wired into them that is where they belonged and that they couldn't escape. Being that and the space zombies out there the kobali or whatever that they came across this and didn't actually invent the tech of re-animation so they stole it to be able to reproduce thus the reason why they picked the vaadwarrr or whatever its spelled to manipulate them and that there is a secret connection between hur'q, fek'ihr, klingon, kobali, and remans that probably is what they tried to get rid of that those ahem not spoiling but those ppl that tried to help you on a certain place but never could get you what you needed maybe lol.

    Of course though you know who is going to find that connection it will be neelix he'll have come up with some disgusting food combination of horrible meals that come from the alpha and delta quadrants that ends up being the combination for weaponizing his meal to destroy the iconians.

    This will be good news because its a way they can redo fek'ihr ships too so they don't look like a box with spikes glued to the side of it. I've always though whoever made the design had a piece of something shaped like a square and stabbed pencils into it and said whoa this is fek'ihr ship!

    This answers all of the Science issue because the KDF does not question their spirituality plus they can't fathom that the people attacking them in that manner are actually klingon zombies. So without that motivation due to brainwashing for so many centuries the curiousity of science never hits the Klingon people.
  • misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Based on this I could see Cryptic's story going forward on this. That the iconians are behind it all like always and that the hur'q were a servitor race that had the fek'ihr as their re-animated such and such "dishonored klingons" that went along with it because they had it hard wired into them that is where they belonged and that they couldn't escape. Being that and the space zombies out there the kobali or whatever that they came across this and didn't actually invent the tech of re-animation so they stole it to be able to reproduce thus the reason why they picked the vaadwarrr or whatever its spelled to manipulate them and that there is a secret connection between hur'q, fek'ihr, klingon, kobali, and remans that probably is what they tried to get rid of that those ahem not spoiling but those ppl that tried to help you on a certain place but never could get you what you needed maybe lol.

    Of course though you know who is going to find that connection it will be neelix he'll have come up with some disgusting food combination of horrible meals that come from the alpha and delta quadrants that ends up being the combination for weaponizing his meal to destroy the iconians.

    This will be good news because its a way they can redo fek'ihr ships too so they don't look like a box with spikes glued to the side of it. I've always though whoever made the design had a piece of something shaped like a square and stabbed pencils into it and said whoa this is fek'ihr ship!

    This answers all of the Science issue because the KDF does not question their spirituality plus they can't fathom that the people attacking them in that manner are actually klingon zombies. So without that motivation due to brainwashing for so many centuries the curiousity of science never hits the Klingon people.

    WTF did I just read?
  • mondoidmondoid Member Posts: 305 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Does it really matter how they got their technology? If the Klingons skipped a couple steps to become a space faring civilization and are thriving because of it, what's the matter then?
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    mondoid wrote: »
    Does it really matter how they got their technology? If the Klingons skipped a couple steps to become a space faring civilization and are thriving because of it, what's the matter then?

    Because it means they got the technology without learning the underlying science, which places limits on how far they can improve it and their ability to progress beyond it. And we all know how the Klingons treat anybody who isn't a warrior. (Case in point in the latest FE: Captain Kock-up gives all the credit to Kahless for wounding T'ket, and absolutely none to B'Eler, the engineer who was solely responsible for Kahless being able to do it.)

    And by the way, they're not "thriving" if they have to declare war on the Federation every few decades just to keep their society from falling apart under the weight of its own stupidity.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • mondoidmondoid Member Posts: 305 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    The Klingon's have a feudal government with a consul to delegate legal matters, many of the great houses saw the in-action of the Feds with the undine as a betrayal of trust and pushed for war.

    It's clear that you know TRIBBLE about the Klingon's culture.

    http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_fb_0_10?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=klingon+art+of+war&sprefix=klingon+art+of+war%2Ctoys-and-games%2C154

    http://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-Klingon-Bird---Prey/dp/145169590X/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1434171636&sr=8-7&keywords=klingon+bird+of+prey

    These books are licensed by CBS, made by the guys who did much of the technical work on the Star Trek series post TOS.
  • misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    mondoid wrote: »
    Does it really matter how they got their technology? If the Klingons skipped a couple steps to become a space faring civilization and are thriving because of it, what's the matter then?

    Because this kind of stuff has been used by the playerbase to "prove" (yeah something that is used in another product line whose storyline is so different it is not allowed to call itself Star Trek is proof somehow) Klingons are actually "inferior" to the...every other major power out there.
  • misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    starswordc wrote: »
    Because it means they got the technology without learning the underlying science, which places limits on how far they can improve it and their ability to progress beyond it.

    Okay, that means it was actually impossible for...

    - the Americans to be the first on the moon because they didn't invent rocket science

    - the Germans and Russians to build the scarierst tanks of WW2 because they didn't invent the tank

    - the Japanese to build the biggest battleship in history because until the 1920's they had their warships built by other countries

    ...need I go on?

    Or do humans not count because we're special somehow?;)
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    misterde3 wrote: »
    Because this kind of stuff has been used by the playerbase to "prove" (yeah something that is used in another product line whose storyline is so different it is not allowed to call itself Star Trek is proof somehow) Klingons are actually "inferior" to the...every other major power out there.

    And all from supposed 'Federation' players as well. So much for tolerance and understanding, eh?

    I sure hope this issue is limited to these game forums and STO in general, and not in the larger Star Trek fanbase.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • nightkennightken Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    mimey2 wrote: »
    And all from supposed 'Federation' players as well. So much for tolerance and understanding, eh?

    I sure hope this issue is limited to these game forums and STO in general, and not in the larger Star Trek fanbase.

    Normal I would say not to count on that, but since most of this brand of fandumb is rooted in the I deserve everything and anyone getting anything means their taking it from me entitlement issues not what they actually think. I'm reasonable sure it's mostly only sto.

    if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
  • gulremalgulremal Member Posts: 153 Arc User
    I completely agree with patrickngo's explanation.
    Also, people fail to understand that klingons thrive on conflict. It's their way of life, it's what makes them tick. It doesn't sound enlightened, but that Federation POW - just like klingons might consider Federation own ways primitive/weak.
    War makes klingons move forward - it boosts their military, industry, scientific research, expansion (both conquest and colonization), culture (new heroic operas etc).
    It's peace that weakens them - it breeds idleness, idleness breed restlessness, and restlessness breeds internal conflict which is more threatening than actual external threat in many ways. Therefore, it's in their leader's interests to keep the Empire in state of near constant warfare. It doesn't need to be full scale war like the last war with Federation, but there must be something to keep his people look outwards, not inwards, for a challenge.
  • nickcastletonnickcastleton Member Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    patrickngo wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    Chang had a Cloaking device that let him fire WHILE CLOAKED-a trick the Romulans did not possess in Star trek VI.)

    while i agree with most of your point you forget that part of the conspiracy a romulan was involved
    Spock forces her into a mind meld, discovering that the conspirators include Admiral Cartwright, General Chang, and the Romulan Ambassador, Nanclus.

    As a result we do not know for certain that the device wasn't built or modified by the Romulans or weather the Klingon's did it all themselves.
    0bzJyzP.gif





    "It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
  • shpoksshpoks Member Posts: 6,967 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    while i agree with most of your point you forget that part of the conspiracy a romulan was involved
    Spock forces her into a mind meld, discovering that the conspirators include Admiral Cartwright, General Chang, and the Romulan Ambassador, Nanclus.

    As a result we do not know for certain that the device wasn't built or modified by the Romulans or weather the Klingon's did it all themselves.

    Well, there are quite a few "open holes" in Star Trek that can be subject to interpretation. For example, the Klingons are suposed to have acquired the cloaking technology from the Romulans for the D7 battlecruiser and their warp tech - however, in ENT which takes place a lot before that suposed trade, the Klingon Bird of Prey is clearly shown to be able to cloak.
    HQroeLu.jpg
  • shpoksshpoks Member Posts: 6,967 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    The Klingons may have had their own-inferior-cloaking/stealthing technology, and traded their warp tech for better cloaking from the Romulans. (thus fulfilling both assertions.)

    I concur, that is a distinct possibility as well.
    HQroeLu.jpg
  • nickcastletonnickcastleton Member Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    i also find it odd that the Ferasans do not have there own ships and are sci orientated either.
    from what we know of them the Ferasans have spent generations genitally modifying their species (and successfully unlike humans and klingons) so they clearly have expertise in science fields.
    0bzJyzP.gif





    "It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
  • skylarcometskylarcomet Member Posts: 182 Arc User
    shpoks wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    The Klingons may have had their own-inferior-cloaking/stealthing technology, and traded their warp tech for better cloaking from the Romulans. (thus fulfilling both assertions.)

    I concur, that is a distinct possibility as well.

    I noticed today when playing the new FE, Butterfly, that Commander Jarok says during a part of it that the Klingon's stole the technology from the Romulan's. Though this could just be poor wording, or just bad info on the part of the writers. Maybe just bitterness on the deal that was made with the Klingon's by Jarok as well, I suppose.
    >:)ruff, meow, moo, whatever.... *shrug*
    [ Still Waiting for a Shiny New T6 Romulan Science Ship to Command ]
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    shpoks wrote: »
    while i agree with most of your point you forget that part of the conspiracy a romulan was involved
    Spock forces her into a mind meld, discovering that the conspirators include Admiral Cartwright, General Chang, and the Romulan Ambassador, Nanclus.

    As a result we do not know for certain that the device wasn't built or modified by the Romulans or weather the Klingon's did it all themselves.

    Well, there are quite a few "open holes" in Star Trek that can be subject to interpretation. For example, the Klingons are suposed to have acquired the cloaking technology from the Romulans for the D7 battlecruiser and their warp tech - however, in ENT which takes place a lot before that suposed trade, the Klingon Bird of Prey is clearly shown to be able to cloak.

    The Klingons may have had their own-inferior-cloaking/stealthing technology, and traded their warp tech for better cloaking from the Romulans. (thus fulfilling both assertions.)

    And we don't know how the trade was "made". Maybe the Klingons sold ships to the Romulans ,and the Romulans sold Cloaking Devices to the Klingons - but there was no reverse engineering allowance in that. Considering the Romulans do still not use Matter/Antimatter Warp Cores, the exchange may have ended up much more one-sided then originally intended.

    Or the Klingons actually strong-armed the Romulans into the "technological alliance"...​​
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • bltrrnbltrrn Member Posts: 1,322 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    shpoks wrote: »
    while i agree with most of your point you forget that part of the conspiracy a romulan was involved
    Spock forces her into a mind meld, discovering that the conspirators include Admiral Cartwright, General Chang, and the Romulan Ambassador, Nanclus.

    As a result we do not know for certain that the device wasn't built or modified by the Romulans or weather the Klingon's did it all themselves.

    Well, there are quite a few "open holes" in Star Trek that can be subject to interpretation. For example, the Klingons are suposed to have acquired the cloaking technology from the Romulans for the D7 battlecruiser and their warp tech - however, in ENT which takes place a lot before that suposed trade, the Klingon Bird of Prey is clearly shown to be able to cloak.

    The Klingons may have had their own-inferior-cloaking/stealthing technology, and traded their warp tech for better cloaking from the Romulans. (thus fulfilling both assertions.)

    And we don't know how the trade was "made". Maybe the Klingons sold ships to the Romulans ,and the Romulans sold Cloaking Devices to the Klingons - but there was no reverse engineering allowance in that. Considering the Romulans do still not use Matter/Antimatter Warp Cores, the exchange may have ended up much more one-sided then originally intended.

    Or the Klingons actually strong-armed the Romulans into the "technological alliance"...​​

    The reference is to the *softish canon* theft of the B'rel, not the K'tinga/Akif exchange.
    R E M A I N

    Tal'Shiar/Reman Resistance/Romulan Nemesis uniform, pls.

    https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7403/13262502435_5604548f2c_o.png
  • bltrrnbltrrn Member Posts: 1,322 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    bltrrn wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    shpoks wrote: »
    while i agree with most of your point you forget that part of the conspiracy a romulan was involved
    Spock forces her into a mind meld, discovering that the conspirators include Admiral Cartwright, General Chang, and the Romulan Ambassador, Nanclus.

    As a result we do not know for certain that the device wasn't built or modified by the Romulans or weather the Klingon's did it all themselves.

    Well, there are quite a few "open holes" in Star Trek that can be subject to interpretation. For example, the Klingons are suposed to have acquired the cloaking technology from the Romulans for the D7 battlecruiser and their warp tech - however, in ENT which takes place a lot before that suposed trade, the Klingon Bird of Prey is clearly shown to be able to cloak.

    The Klingons may have had their own-inferior-cloaking/stealthing technology, and traded their warp tech for better cloaking from the Romulans. (thus fulfilling both assertions.)

    And we don't know how the trade was "made". Maybe the Klingons sold ships to the Romulans ,and the Romulans sold Cloaking Devices to the Klingons - but there was no reverse engineering allowance in that. Considering the Romulans do still not use Matter/Antimatter Warp Cores, the exchange may have ended up much more one-sided then originally intended.

    Or the Klingons actually strong-armed the Romulans into the "technological alliance"...​​

    The reference is to the *softish canon* theft of the B'rel, not the K'tinga/Akif exchange.

    which runs up against the Hard Canon- see "The Enterprise Incident" (TOS)-the Romulans were running D-7's, not warbirds. This predates your "stolen" B'rel from the apocryphal anecdote from the liner notes for the DvD for Star Trek 3.

    I actually agree with your views on Klingon technological development, but as Thea said of Romulans, so goes the same for Klingons; "Our people are warriors, often savage, but we are also many other pleasant things.".
    R E M A I N

    Tal'Shiar/Reman Resistance/Romulan Nemesis uniform, pls.

    https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7403/13262502435_5604548f2c_o.png
  • misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    patrickngo wrote: »

    which runs up against the Hard Canon- see "The Enterprise Incident" (TOS)-the Romulans were running D-7's, not warbirds. This predates your "stolen" B'rel from the apocryphal anecdote from the liner notes for the DvD for Star Trek 3.

    ...and the idea of the ship being stolen actually collides heavily with several bits and pieces from the actual movies.
    As soon as the BoP decloaks Sulu says "Klingon Bird-of-Prey, she's arming torpedoes"...so if it was a stolen ship Sulu was just that good he was able to identify a stolen Romulan ship as being stolen by Klingons ON SIGHT.
    Sulu may be good but he can't be THAT good.
    Also after stealing the ship from the Romulans, the Klingons spent...months(?) totally redoing the internal decorations and even writing their own manuals and/or replacing all the labelns on the entire ship and wrting a custon software for the computer in Klingon (Scotty: "Damage control is easy...reading Klingon, that's hard") before setting out towards the Genesis planet. *facepalm*
  • kyrrokkyrrok Member Posts: 1,352 Arc User
    Even acting under the assumption that they got their warp tech from the Hur'q, how do they know what they are doing regarding the ships they are about to build? How do they navigate from one planet to another? How do they make sure they get to conquer other worlds and come back to Qo'nos to tell their glorious tale instead of getting lost in the middle of nowhere? This does not happen from the absolute stupidity the story writers insist the Klingons are comprised of and nothing else.

    And the Klingons only look like stupid, barbaric, amoral wastes of genetic material because the story writers insist on making them out that way. I'm not too thrilled about it.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    kyrrok wrote: »
    Even acting under the assumption that they got their warp tech from the Hur'q, how do they know what they are doing regarding the ships they are about to build? How do they navigate from one planet to another? How do they make sure they get to conquer other worlds and come back to Qo'nos to tell their glorious tale instead of getting lost in the middle of nowhere? This does not happen from the absolute stupidity the story writers insist the Klingons are comprised of and nothing else.

    And the Klingons only look like stupid, barbaric, amoral wastes of genetic material because the story writers insist on making them out that way. I'm not too thrilled about it.
    Enh, I think it may be in part due to HOW they acquired their tech that they think warriors are the most important thing. Warriors got the tech, warriors freed them from the Hur'q....etc.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • kyrrokkyrrok Member Posts: 1,352 Arc User
    kyrrok wrote: »
    Even acting under the assumption that they got their warp tech from the Hur'q, how do they know what they are doing regarding the ships they are about to build? How do they navigate from one planet to another? How do they make sure they get to conquer other worlds and come back to Qo'nos to tell their glorious tale instead of getting lost in the middle of nowhere? This does not happen from the absolute stupidity the story writers insist the Klingons are comprised of and nothing else.

    And the Klingons only look like stupid, barbaric, amoral wastes of genetic material because the story writers insist on making them out that way. I'm not too thrilled about it.
    Enh, I think it may be in part due to HOW they acquired their tech that they think warriors are the most important thing. Warriors got the tech, warriors freed them from the Hur'q....etc.

    Indeed. The Hur'q tried to take over Qo'nos, and their spoils of war would have been slaves, the planets resources, and a base of ops to spread their invasion. But it was the Klingons who won, and thus got the spoils,among them yes being warp tech. But applying it to their own ships along with building said ships don't get done through sheer stupidity.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    kyrrok wrote: »
    kyrrok wrote: »
    Even acting under the assumption that they got their warp tech from the Hur'q, how do they know what they are doing regarding the ships they are about to build? How do they navigate from one planet to another? How do they make sure they get to conquer other worlds and come back to Qo'nos to tell their glorious tale instead of getting lost in the middle of nowhere? This does not happen from the absolute stupidity the story writers insist the Klingons are comprised of and nothing else.

    And the Klingons only look like stupid, barbaric, amoral wastes of genetic material because the story writers insist on making them out that way. I'm not too thrilled about it.
    Enh, I think it may be in part due to HOW they acquired their tech that they think warriors are the most important thing. Warriors got the tech, warriors freed them from the Hur'q....etc.
    Indeed. The Hur'q tried to take over Qo'nos, and their spoils of war would have been slaves, the planets resources, and a base of ops to spread their invasion. But it was the Klingons who won, and thus got the spoils,among them yes being warp tech. But applying it to their own ships along with building said ships don't get done through sheer stupidity.
    True, but it could be argued that the Klingon approach to honorable combat may blind them to the possibilities.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
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