We already had these TRIBBLE Klingons in the Spin the Wheel episode where B'Eler mentions her mate. That mission has already been around for over 4 years.
This is the other thing. this kind of was the third act where Chekhov's TRIBBLE Klingons got used, after being shown to us years ago. My first KDF character (aka the one who actually read through all of that dialogue) was years ago, so I had actually forgotten the previous mention of this relationship. I guess I took it in stride back then, too.
I don't believe in Chekhov's gun, by the way, since so many authors and directors have shown just how wonderful a red herring or MacGuffin can be.
This is an MMO, not a Star Trek episode simulator. That would make for a terrible game.
Why is it that when someone's trying to make us all horrified at TRIBBLE couples, they always lunge straight (if you'll pardon the expression) toward comparisons with incest or bestiality?
It always makes me wonder what other fantasies they're keeping hidden...
And what "in your face"? This couple was just a couple. No big deal, except some people want it to be one. It certainly wasn't commented upon in the episode; why does it stick in your mind (and your craw) so very much? Should we go line-by-line through the game and expunge any references to couples of any sort? (That would sure make some things in the Klingon storyline rather confusing, if Ch'gren and what's-her-face, the first officer of the ship you started on, weren't mated, just as an example...)
I quickly want to get this out of the way first: Nothing wrong with people being TRIBBLE/TRIBBLE, of course. We should be careful, though, not to impute 'intolerance' to those who might find it weird in a Klingon, though.
Anyway, my first thought was that Klingons might find it aberrant behavior, and just kill such ppl on the spot (they're Klingon, after all ). I'm not so sure any more, though. In fact, I think ere Romulan society would have a problem with it. Deviancy doesn't sit well with them. Look, for instance. at the way they reacted to LaForge's blindness ("And they let you live?!").
Klingons are about honor. And the longer I think about it, the more I'm convinced that, as long as the ladies in question are fearsome warriors, Klingon would care less about who they kiss.
There are not TRIBBLE Klingons period. If this is the direction that STO is going to pursue then you can count me out. You go the TRIBBLE way then I go away. I will take my time and money elsewhere.
G.R. is rolling in his grave now. grats.
It was from the forums I learned we have here a TRIBBLE couple, My first impression was that it was her mother. I thought, typical Klingon perhaps, when a female goes to war, her mother will accompany her. Lol at my self.
Anyway, we are 400 ahead of our time in Startrek, perhaps homosexuality does not longer exist. Knowledge of the human body and mind is that far that people kan choose what they are and what they want. It is short sighted to put nowadays things into another universe or culture, more even if it also a complete other time, be it past or future.
It was from the forums I learned we have here a TRIBBLE couple, My first impression was that it was her mother. I thought, typical Klingon perhaps, when a female goes to war, her mother will accompany her. Lol at my self.
Anyway, we are 400 ahead of our time in Startrek, perhaps homosexuality does not longer exist. Knowledge of the human body and mind is that far that people kan choose what they are and what they want. It is short sighted to put nowadays things into another universe or culture, more even if it also a complete other time, be it past or future.
I was wondering that myself. I remember the TOS episode "Dagger of the Mind".
There are not TRIBBLE Klingons period. If this is the direction that STO is going to pursue then you can count me out. You go the TRIBBLE way then I go away. I will take my time and money elsewhere.
G.R. is rolling in his grave now. grats.
And for some strange reason you seem to believe that your blanket bigotry and intolerance are qualities we will miss. /sarcasm
Really? You have no idea what you'resaying right there since George Takei is openly TRIBBLE and has been for a long time... I think you're letting your own intolerant bias cloud your beliefs on that one...
Thanks... Something I found floating around the internet... I felt it appropriate as the current Iconian War arc has some striking plot similarities to the Shadow War from Babylon 5 IMO...
lol? if it was so clear, why is there no TRIBBLE thread about spin the wheel than? we simply dont know what "mate" means in that episode.
Honestly, long, long time since I played that episode... But, I could perhaps suggest that there wasn't such a big deal made about the circumstances of their relationship, which has kinda been my point from the beginning...
Simply mentioning the relationship in some casual fashion would have sufficed, if Cryptic really wanted to point out that one existed, without creating the same sense of contrived focus that the dialogue of House Pegh presently does...
Had there then been some form of impact on that relationship (eg, one of them dieing) it would have at least legitimised there being the focus on the status of their relationship in the earlier dialogue - instead, it just results in those lines feeling shoe-horned into the episode, as if some sort of feel-good progressive statement...
Honestly, long, long time since I played that episode... But, I could perhaps suggest that there wasn't such a big deal made about the circumstances of their relationship, which has kinda been my point from the beginning...
Simply mentioning the relationship in some casual fashion would have sufficed, if Cryptic really wanted to point out that one existed, without creating the same sense of contrived focus that the dialogue of House Pegh presently does...
Had there then been some form of impact on that relationship (eg, one of them dieing) it would have at least legitimised there being the focus on the status of their relationship in the earlier dialogue and just results in those lines feeling shoe-horned into the episode as some sort of feel-good progressive statement...
Agreed!
Wonder if the Cryptic team were "Legend of Korra" fans?
*Looking at the OP's Avatar... then Signature*
uhm....
nevermind...
apparently sexism in ok in this case, because just the others are doing it wrong /sarcasm
Beta, LTA, CE, Multiple preorder Versions, all Addon Packs except AoY, nearly all KDF/Rom and ~50% of all Fedships, over 25 LockboxShips, Endurer of Atari's "Year of Hell", but...
I have to admit, when I first did this mission and came across that couple, it raised my eyebrows a bit. A surprise, TBH. But then I didn't give a **** because I get to kill stuff in the name of the Empire.
Though it was nice to see the story writers of STO embracing diversity with the various species of the Star Trek universe, I found the two Klingon lesbians in House Pegh to be stretch of Klingon culture. As far as I can recall, female Klingons have never been portrayed to encompass a TRIBBLE lifestyle
Perhaps that's the problem right there: "lifestyle."
It's not a "lifestyle."
And there's no reason to project the values of the Human Abrahamic Tradition onto other species like Klingons. In Romulan language circles, there is a word for "homosexual" which is explicitly noted as "not an insult." Seems like Romulans are fine with it. As for no previous portrayals, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Not having seen it before is not justification for assuming it doesn't exist.
My only real complaint with the story of this mission is that we all ran away after the Iconian was weakened, rather than finishing the blasted thing off.
Well I can see this either being moved to Ten Forward because of the topics that it brings of closed because of flaming that will start. I wish people would live and let live. While I agree with the OP that the stero typical human TRIBBLE personalities would not completely cross over to another race. Specially one where the woman initiates mating with biting of the face. I just don't think this is appropriate material for a game that can have younger teens playing. Some parents might not what to have to explain this to there children.
All the more reason to have it in the game. Some parents ought to explain it, like so many other things that they don't want to explain. Insulating the child from the world is not doing the child any favors. But of course, many would have to come to understand something themselves first before they would be able to explain it.
I learned from a very early age about homosexuality. I was maybe 10 years old when my uncle had a civil partnership. I remember clearly I walked outside to get some air and i saw a plaque on the wall which stated that this building was used for civil partnerships regularly and had the world "homosexual" written on it. I asked my mum if they couldn't get somewhere else for this (in my defense my social circle was still using "TRIBBLE" as an insult... bad times).
She sat me down and asked me why i thought i was there, and i said i thought my uncle and his friend were doing something to say they would always be friends forever... which in a sense it was.
Long story short 10 minutes later i walked into that hall, a little 10 year old kid and gave my uncle and his new husband, not partner, husband, a big hug.
Ever since then the idea of same sex relationships hasnt bother me in the slightest so when i saw 2 female klingons as mates this was my exact thought process
"cool, never seen TRIBBLE klingons before... shes protective, well im protective of my girlfriend too, okay shes got attitude i like her, where do i go now?"
im honestly surprised in this day and age that we need a 100+ long thread about homosexual characters where in the same mission the emperor of the klingon empire dies
This is the same Gene who couldn't bring himself to even acknowledge the possibility of same-sex relationships in Trek at all? (Read David Gerrold's saga of the would-be TNG episode "A Fire In the Blood" sometime.)
"Blood and Fire," a story more about AIDS than same-sex relations, and Gerrold blames Rick Bernman, not Gene Roddenberry, for the episode not being made.
Gerrold also says this:
I was there. I know what Gene Roddenberry envisioned. He went on at length about it in almost every meeting. He wasn't about technology, he was about envisioning a world that works for everyone, with no one and nothing left out. Gene Roddenberry was one of the great Social Justice Warriors. You don't get to claim him or his show as a shield of virtue for a cause he would have disdained.
Most of the stories we wrote were about social justice. "The Cloud Minders," "A Taste Of Armageddon," "Errand Of Mercy," "The Apple," "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield," and so many more. We did stories that were about exploring the universe not just because we could build starships, but because we wanted to know who was out there, what was our place in the universe, and what could we learn from the other races out there?
Star Trek was about social justice from day one -- the stories were about the human pursuit for a better world, a better way of being, the next step up the ladder of sentience. The stories weren't about who we were going to fight, but who we were going to make friends with. It wasn't about defining an enemy -- it was about creating a new partnership. That's why when Next Gen came along, we had a Klingon on the bridge.
Lehman blew it. He missed the point. He uses science fiction -- and Star Trek -- as a justification for playing a game of "us" v. "them."
Here's a clue. When you divide humanity into us and them, you automatically become one of them.
The continuing denigration of women and minorities as "the Social Justice Warrior Glittery Hoo Ha crowd" leaves me wondering ... are you folks in favor of social injustice?
If you're against "the Social Justice Warrior Glittery Hoo Ha crowd" then we to wonder if you're in favor of the denial of civil rights to women, blacks, LGBT, immigrants, and other minorities?
Because if that's what you stand for -- a return to the days of sexism, racism, misogyny, and discrimination -- then you really shouldn't be pointing to Star Trek as your inspiration. Because that's not what Star Trek was about. Honest. I was there.
im honestly surprised in this day and age that we need a 100+ long thread about homosexual characters where in the same mission the emperor of the klingon empire dies
Good thing we're not in a Muslim country then! A 100+ long thread would be the least of our worries.
Nah! Kahless died a warriors death... stupidly. Nothing unusual there!
This might not be helpful but there is a post on this thread (#12) that, in my opinion, has it almost right.
Putting LGBT characters into the game can be important if the writing is good and the social background to their situation is explored.
Post #9, done by the original poster, highlighted that by having Kahless, before he goes mental and gets himself killed, express some sort of opinion would help build the Klingon race as more than just 'we like swords and guns and want to kill everything!'
While I understand where you are coming from, This is not acceptable actions to some parents. It should be them sitting them down and teaching them about life, equality, and diversity. Not that of a video game.
This is the same excuse used to oppose sex education in schools, but the parents who raise the most heck about it either don't provide sex education to their children at all, or they fail miserably. If they don't want their children "exposed" to it, then they should more closely monitor their children's online activity. I don't see that happening anytime soon, as long as they can use the internet as a babysitter so they don't have to bother themselves with raising their children properly.
I was actually thinking about this earlier and since it seems there is some actual interest in canon here I'll share.
My take on Klingons and homosexuality is that it probably isn't going to fly in the big houses. You will have a duty there to marry opposite gender and produce an heir. Just as we might have seen in royal families in Europe when they were still important. Of course we generally tend to see the important Klingons on the shows. And what they might do on the side is not shown.
As for the common klingons and what goes on on warships with a cask of blood wine. Well...
Of course, being TRIBBLE does not prevent one from having offspring ... Or are you unfamiliar with the term "lavender marriage"?
I wouldn't be overly surprised to see them remove the content. Even if they do I'll still be very proud of the team that made it and got it in the game. For me it was by far the best moment in 4 years of STO. Well, I also enjoyed playing every mission with my mate this past month as delta recruits.
I do think that this is a possiblity. And I would be disappointed if they did.
Summarizing the events, at first I was unsure about the depiciton of the characters in question. After thinking about it, I actively choose not to be offended by the depiction of the couple because I am willing to accept that they went for a "Klingon" type of relationship before they hopped on the "butch TRIBBLE" stereotype. I will point out that Cryptic's writing in this case is 'unfortunate' and by no means revolutionary, although for the sake of the game I have to positively mention the Klingon engineer B'Eler (the "mate") and the Klingon commander which do not strike me as typical Klingon stereotypes but open up a deeper depiction of Klingons.
I do have, however, to state that what I read in this and other threads really makes me sad. I've read statements from users in here which completely turned my perception of some members of this community upside down. That's damage that cannot possibly be undone. I am baffled at some statements claiming basically that Cryptic should cater to people which for some reason sport irrational refusal to equal treatment and depiction of human beings. Casaully depicting a homosexual couple should not be a bigger deal than depicting a heterosexual couple. For some people it is and they would wish no such depiciton should occur. This is something you cannot possibly reason, especially not to my face. If someone wants to try I invite them to do so in private, I hope without the reason being that they do not want to have a talk with their children.
I would be very disappointed if Cryptic would change two words of the dialogue for that reason. In any way, this has been a sad day for this community and Star Trek.
---
I have way more problems with the sloppy story writing of that episode, but whatever.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Chekov was added to the crew because of the Pravda article about no Russians on Star Trek.
As for Uhura, the Kirk/Uhura kiss was a big deal, and clearly played out as a set-up: look at the white guy kissing the black woman. it was entirely a statement. Plus she was the telephone operator - a traditional woman's roll at the time. Rand was a secretary. Chapel was a nurse. There was no stereotypes being pushed there. It was what people saw women doing on TV all the time. If the show had gone with the original idea for Number One - a female 1st Officer - that would have been gender breaking and important - and would have been unusual, and people would have wanted to know about it.
"The Enterprise Incident" -- a female in command not of one ship, but several.
"Turnabout Intruder" -- a commentary on NBC's attitude toward the Number One you mentioned.
We also see women in Science roles, not telephone operators or secretaries. And Uhura was more than an operator; she was part of the bridge crew and interacted with the others considerably more than "Captain, incoming message." So it's not all women just filling traditional gender roles.
There was no reason why they could not have simply been sisters, or friends since childhood or that Trevana (what ever her name) was simply exceedingly protective out of some sense of duty and honour, or that she simply recognised the strategic importance of her counterpart's knowledge...
And there's no reason why they can't be lovers, either. Some people getting their knickers in a twist over it is not a reason. It's a bias.
that TRIBBLE klingon couple was just weird. WEIRD! I dont care what someone does in real life, but there have never been klingon lesbians before - not in any film, not in any series, not in any book, not in any comic, nowhere! and tbh it simply doesnt fit to klingons. at least as long there is no plausible background story to this... this was just kinda awkward, it didnt add anything to the episode.
!
Actually in the novel Klingon Empire: A Burning House in one scene Bekk G'joth of the IKS Gorkon is on shore leave and helping with an Opera being made about his captain's exploits, he laughs when he finds out the opera is making a the ship's late executive officer into the captain's love interest on the grounds that "she preferred her own gender".
Comments
This is the other thing. this kind of was the third act where Chekhov's TRIBBLE Klingons got used, after being shown to us years ago. My first KDF character (aka the one who actually read through all of that dialogue) was years ago, so I had actually forgotten the previous mention of this relationship. I guess I took it in stride back then, too.
I don't believe in Chekhov's gun, by the way, since so many authors and directors have shown just how wonderful a red herring or MacGuffin can be.
It always makes me wonder what other fantasies they're keeping hidden...
And what "in your face"? This couple was just a couple. No big deal, except some people want it to be one. It certainly wasn't commented upon in the episode; why does it stick in your mind (and your craw) so very much? Should we go line-by-line through the game and expunge any references to couples of any sort? (That would sure make some things in the Klingon storyline rather confusing, if Ch'gren and what's-her-face, the first officer of the ship you started on, weren't mated, just as an example...)
Anyway, my first thought was that Klingons might find it aberrant behavior, and just kill such ppl on the spot (they're Klingon, after all
Klingons are about honor. And the longer I think about it, the more I'm convinced that, as long as the ladies in question are fearsome warriors, Klingon would care less about who they kiss.
G.R. is rolling in his grave now. grats.
lol what relationship?
thats the dialogue. "mate" doesnt mean they are lesbians. could be friends or collegues too.
Anyway, we are 400 ahead of our time in Startrek, perhaps homosexuality does not longer exist. Knowledge of the human body and mind is that far that people kan choose what they are and what they want. It is short sighted to put nowadays things into another universe or culture, more even if it also a complete other time, be it past or future.
I was wondering that myself. I remember the TOS episode "Dagger of the Mind".
Can't speak for Klingon society, though.
And for some strange reason you seem to believe that your blanket bigotry and intolerance are qualities we will miss. /sarcasm
Really? You have no idea what you'resaying right there since George Takei is openly TRIBBLE and has been for a long time... I think you're letting your own intolerant bias cloud your beliefs on that one...
That's a stretch at best... It was pretty clear what was being inferred with the term 'mate'...
Indeed. It just was what it was.
Btw, LOL @ Shadow vessels in your sig, btw.
lol? if it was so clear, why is there no TRIBBLE thread about spin the wheel than? we simply dont know what "mate" means in that episode.
I'm right there with you! Bring them on!
"There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
Thanks... Something I found floating around the internet... I felt it appropriate as the current Iconian War arc has some striking plot similarities to the Shadow War from Babylon 5 IMO...
Honestly, long, long time since I played that episode... But, I could perhaps suggest that there wasn't such a big deal made about the circumstances of their relationship, which has kinda been my point from the beginning...
Simply mentioning the relationship in some casual fashion would have sufficed, if Cryptic really wanted to point out that one existed, without creating the same sense of contrived focus that the dialogue of House Pegh presently does...
Had there then been some form of impact on that relationship (eg, one of them dieing) it would have at least legitimised there being the focus on the status of their relationship in the earlier dialogue - instead, it just results in those lines feeling shoe-horned into the episode, as if some sort of feel-good progressive statement...
Agreed!
Wonder if the Cryptic team were "Legend of Korra" fans?
uhm....
nevermind...
apparently sexism in ok in this case, because just the others are doing it wrong /sarcasm
Perhaps that's the problem right there: "lifestyle."
It's not a "lifestyle."
And there's no reason to project the values of the Human Abrahamic Tradition onto other species like Klingons. In Romulan language circles, there is a word for "homosexual" which is explicitly noted as "not an insult." Seems like Romulans are fine with it. As for no previous portrayals, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Not having seen it before is not justification for assuming it doesn't exist.
My only real complaint with the story of this mission is that we all ran away after the Iconian was weakened, rather than finishing the blasted thing off.
what is that word? and are that "circles" located on risa?
All the more reason to have it in the game. Some parents ought to explain it, like so many other things that they don't want to explain. Insulating the child from the world is not doing the child any favors. But of course, many would have to come to understand something themselves first before they would be able to explain it.
She sat me down and asked me why i thought i was there, and i said i thought my uncle and his friend were doing something to say they would always be friends forever... which in a sense it was.
Long story short 10 minutes later i walked into that hall, a little 10 year old kid and gave my uncle and his new husband, not partner, husband, a big hug.
Ever since then the idea of same sex relationships hasnt bother me in the slightest so when i saw 2 female klingons as mates this was my exact thought process
"cool, never seen TRIBBLE klingons before... shes protective, well im protective of my girlfriend too, okay shes got attitude i like her, where do i go now?"
im honestly surprised in this day and age that we need a 100+ long thread about homosexual characters where in the same mission the emperor of the klingon empire dies
"Blood and Fire," a story more about AIDS than same-sex relations, and Gerrold blames Rick Bernman, not Gene Roddenberry, for the episode not being made.
Gerrold also says this:
-- Source
Good thing we're not in a Muslim country then! A 100+ long thread would be the least of our worries.
Nah! Kahless died a warriors death... stupidly. Nothing unusual there!
Putting LGBT characters into the game can be important if the writing is good and the social background to their situation is explored.
Post #9, done by the original poster, highlighted that by having Kahless, before he goes mental and gets himself killed, express some sort of opinion would help build the Klingon race as more than just 'we like swords and guns and want to kill everything!'
This is the same excuse used to oppose sex education in schools, but the parents who raise the most heck about it either don't provide sex education to their children at all, or they fail miserably. If they don't want their children "exposed" to it, then they should more closely monitor their children's online activity. I don't see that happening anytime soon, as long as they can use the internet as a babysitter so they don't have to bother themselves with raising their children properly.
Of course, being TRIBBLE does not prevent one from having offspring ... Or are you unfamiliar with the term "lavender marriage"?
I do think that this is a possiblity. And I would be disappointed if they did.
Summarizing the events, at first I was unsure about the depiciton of the characters in question. After thinking about it, I actively choose not to be offended by the depiction of the couple because I am willing to accept that they went for a "Klingon" type of relationship before they hopped on the "butch TRIBBLE" stereotype. I will point out that Cryptic's writing in this case is 'unfortunate' and by no means revolutionary, although for the sake of the game I have to positively mention the Klingon engineer B'Eler (the "mate") and the Klingon commander which do not strike me as typical Klingon stereotypes but open up a deeper depiction of Klingons.
I do have, however, to state that what I read in this and other threads really makes me sad. I've read statements from users in here which completely turned my perception of some members of this community upside down. That's damage that cannot possibly be undone. I am baffled at some statements claiming basically that Cryptic should cater to people which for some reason sport irrational refusal to equal treatment and depiction of human beings. Casaully depicting a homosexual couple should not be a bigger deal than depicting a heterosexual couple. For some people it is and they would wish no such depiciton should occur. This is something you cannot possibly reason, especially not to my face. If someone wants to try I invite them to do so in private, I hope without the reason being that they do not want to have a talk with their children.
I would be very disappointed if Cryptic would change two words of the dialogue for that reason. In any way, this has been a sad day for this community and Star Trek.
---
I have way more problems with the sloppy story writing of that episode, but whatever.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
"The Enterprise Incident" -- a female in command not of one ship, but several.
"Turnabout Intruder" -- a commentary on NBC's attitude toward the Number One you mentioned.
We also see women in Science roles, not telephone operators or secretaries. And Uhura was more than an operator; she was part of the bridge crew and interacted with the others considerably more than "Captain, incoming message." So it's not all women just filling traditional gender roles.
And there's no reason why they can't be lovers, either. Some people getting their knickers in a twist over it is not a reason. It's a bias.
Actually in the novel Klingon Empire: A Burning House in one scene Bekk G'joth of the IKS Gorkon is on shore leave and helping with an Opera being made about his captain's exploits, he laughs when he finds out the opera is making a the ship's late executive officer into the captain's love interest on the grounds that "she preferred her own gender".