So in Gene Roddenberry's 'Utopian' Federation, perhaps their advanced medical technology has allowed them to perfect the human Genome and eliminate deviance like this. Just an interesting thought.
That would be eugenics. I'm pretty sure that (if the idea that TRIBBLE people are "deviant" even still exists) the Eugenics Wars would have convinced people to ban that practice as dangerous and unethical.
/rant about eugenics as a flawed psuedo-science and the psychopathic politics of deciding what a "better" human being is goes here.
But if something doesn't exist who can miss it? If nobody ever got addicted to drugs nobody would even think of the fact that a drug addict could exist.
Food for thought, one cannot claim to be truly open-minded without examining every scenario.
I examined your scenario. I found it lacking in merit.
/rant about eugenics as a flawed psuedo-science and the psychopathic politics of deciding what a "better" human being is goes here.
That too. Since that's rather central to the point.
I examined your scenario. I found it lacking in merit.
Here's a better question, lacking in merit based on what method of judging? Logic? Science? Sociology? Psychology? Economics? Or it just didn't feel right to you?
I'm a very cold and Logical person generally so don't take too much offense to what I say. I don't skirt around issues I get strait to the point, most people don't seem to appreciate this. :cool:
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Not to be too technical, but from a logical stand-point there isn't anything we can contribute to a society that straight people can't do equally or better than us
Also, there's nothing blind people can do that sighted people can't do better, but Geordi was still born blind.
The Federation's technological development didn't result in the extinction of people like Geordi. Instead, it found a way to make him be able to positively contribute something to society that sighted people couldn't.
That would be eugenics. I'm pretty sure that (if the idea that TRIBBLE people are "deviant" even still exists) the Eugenics Wars would have convinced people to ban that practice as dangerous and unethical.
/rant about eugenics as a flawed psuedo-science and the psychopathic politics of deciding what a "better" human being is goes here.
I'm not disagreeing that Eugenics is wrong I'm just presenting new ideas to foster discussion. What if the human Genome could be perfected and eliminate all deviance like alcoholism, homosexuality, greed, disease etc. would we even be human anymore when we're all just the same? See 'The Giver' for further analysis of this concept.
Also, there's nothing blind people can do that sighted people can't do better, but Geordi was still born blind.
The Federation's technological development didn't result in the extinction of people like Geordi. Instead, it found a way to make him be able to positively contribute something to society that sighted people couldn't.
Interesting point, he eventually got new eyeballs but you do raise a good point. Which is all I'm trying to do.
Here's a better question, lacking in merit based on what method of judging? Logic? Science? Sociology? Psychology? Economics? Or it just didn't feel right to you?
Based on what we know about the people of the United Earth. Or did you miss Space Seed, Wrath of Khan, the augment arc in Enterprise, the story about Bashir's parents, and the augment arc in STO?
I'm a very cold and Logical person generally so don't take too much offense to what I say. I don't skirt around issues I get strait to the point, most people don't seem to appreciate this. :cool:
I hate to break it to you, but discredited nineteenth century ideas of genetics and human potential don't make you "cold and logical." They make you, frankly, dumb. Ignoring what we know about the culture of we're talking about also doesn't make you cold and logical. It makes you ignorant and incapable of actually processing data that is presented to you.
I'm not disagreeing that Eugenics is wrong I'm just presenting new ideas to foster discussion. What if the human Genome could be perfected and eliminate all deviance like alcoholism, homosexuality, greed, disease etc. would we even be human anymore when we're all just the same? See 'The Giver' for further analysis of this concept.
I'm not sure what this has to do with House of Pegh, anymore.
Based on what we know about the people of the United Earth. Or did you miss Space Seed, Wrath of Khan, the augment arc in Enterprise, the story about Bashir's parents, and the augment arc in STO?
I hate to break it to you, but fallen nineteenth century ideas of genetics and human potential don't make you "cold and logical." They make you, frankly, dumb. Ignoring what we know about the culture of we're talking about also doesn't make you cold and logical. It makes you ignorant and incapable of actually processing data that is presented to you.
I was hoping to have an interesting, intellectual discussion but you did what I was afraid you might do. You started name-calling when you ran out of arguments. Here's another tip for you, calling people names doesn't invalidate their points. Most human beings are far too blinded by their beliefs to even consider other people's views, Your no exception I'm afraid. I didn't ask you to change anything I just raised a few interesting points for discussion. Well good bye now.
I'm sure you'll **** all over me for this, but maybe in the future TRIBBLE people don't exist? Not to be too technical, but from a logical stand-point there isn't anything we can contribute to a society that straight people can't do equally or better than us. So in Gene Roddenberry's 'Utopian' Federation, perhaps their advanced medical technology has allowed them to perfect the human Genome and eliminate deviance like this. Just an interesting thought.
maybe in the future there will be no genders, just highly evolved humans.
procreation is simply a vehicle for the continuation of a species, with lifespans that permit a species to evolve according to [big list of things and ever changing]. it isn't unfeasible to assume that science will get to the point where life can be extended greatly and reproduced through DNA harvesting and cell manipulation. until then its worth remembering that it is people that contribute to society, not their sexual preferences, and diversity is 1 of the things that helps to stop the think pool from stagnating.
I was hoping to have an interesting, intellectual discussion but you did what I was afraid you might do. You started name-calling when you ran out of arguments. Here's another tip for you, calling people names doesn't invalidate their points. Most human beings are far too blinded by their beliefs to even consider other people's views, Your no exception I'm afraid. I didn't ask you to change anything I just raised a few interesting points for discussion. Well good bye now.
I'll note you never actually addressed any of my points. Which is rather important, given what you're accusing me of here.
This tangent is the weirdest thing I've seen on the forums since the guy who swore he saw chemtrails in the sky on Risa.
I feared another case of Godwins law was or is on the way....
But on topic, I think the episode was quite good, it was short, way too short, I didn't overly raise my expectations too high, but it was alright, the mission had it's tense moments, and I was surprised at several points. But, just left me wanting more as it ended too quickly, and I'm not a tac, but a sci healer so that should say something :P.
And in response to the OP, you seem to have a strange idea of honor and what a code of life entails. Being TRIBBLE is not dishonorable. Pretending to be something you are not for the approval of others is. Warrior cultures are not intrinsically opposed to being TRIBBLE. The Spartans, to take only one example, were a force to be reckoned with, and they certainly accepted it.
The Spartans, samurai and many other warrior cultures not only accepted it, but celebrated it in their art and song. I can totally see the Klingons being baffled by the idea of someone having a problem with it.
maybe in the future there will be no genders, just highly evolved humans.
procreation is simply a vehicle for the continuation of a species, with lifespans that permit a species to evolve according to [big list of things and ever changing]. it isn't unfeasible to assume that science will get to the point where life can be extended greatly and reproduced through DNA harvesting and cell manipulation. People contribute to society, not their sexual preferences, and diversity is 1 of the things that helps to stop the think pool from stagnating.
Now this looks interesting!
My own opinion is that one cannot allow themselves to be ruled/ controlled by their impulses, emotions or other tendencies and instead put those aside and do what is best for society. But that's probably a rather extreme ideology for most people. For example, if it served society that I happened to have an interesting or unique trait that we needed more of, I would happily procreate with a women even though it contradicts my sexual preference. I believe overcoming silly things like impulse and emotion is the epitome of being human, and while we need not eliminate them we do need to control them and not the other way around.
I'll note you never actually addressed any of my points. Which is rather important, given what you're accusing me of here.
Bashir was an invaluable member of the DS9 team that helped save the entire galaxy... Thanks to be genetically modified. You really aren't doing yourself any favors with that example my friend.
we will be destroyed by ourselves before a possible evolution. the bodies evolve faster than the way of thinking, and for now our way of thinking is the path to the destruction.
we will be destroyed by ourselves before a possible evolution. the bodies evolve faster than the way of thinking, and for now our way of thinking is the path to the destruction.
but I do not want to be pessimistic
So I wasn't the only one rooting for Lex Luther in Superman to blow up the planet? Lol I actually got mad at the Avengers in Age of Ultron for saving the planet. Lol
I'm not sure what this has to do with House of Pegh, anymore.
Or even TRIBBLE Klingons, for that matter.
i dont think it does.. im all for a good discussion, especially when there are differing opinions, but when someone enters a discussion with the intent to bait and/or derail, that is pretty low, and quite frankly, if that is the case bloody annoying.
*edit
i think i missed a page.. this is now a solidly 'trekverse' discussion as opposed to real world prejudice, don't think i can offer much in that regard, i feel my way through Trek, haven't really studied it lol
My own opinion is that one cannot allow themselves to be ruled/ controlled by their impulses, emotions or other tendencies and instead put those aside and do what is best for society. But that's probably a rather extreme ideology for most people. For example, if it served society that I happened to have an interesting or unique trait that we needed more of, I would happily procreate with a women even though it contradicts my sexual preference. I believe overcoming silly things like impulse and emotion is the epitome of being human, and while we need not eliminate them we do need to control them and not the other way around.
That's not the viewpoint of the United Earth, though, and any discussion of what would happen in Star Trek has to be educated by the United Earth's ideology.
Emotion is a profoundly human thing in Trek - essential to the survival and success of humanity, and humanity's leading place in the Federation. So, within the context of the Trek universe, your basic belief is wrong - we know the rules of the Trek universe, because we see them played out every episode and every film.
That's not the viewpoint of the United Earth, though, and any discussion of what would happen in Star Trek has to be educated by the United Earth's ideology.
Emotion is a profoundly human thing in Trek - essential to the survival and success of humanity, and humanity's leading place in the Federation. So, within the context of the Trek universe, your basic belief is wrong - we know the rules of the Trek universe, because we see them played out every episode and every film.
Despite the fact that Star Trek: Insurrection contains references that basically state things like Sexual attraction have been lessened/ eliminated from most of society.
I didn't say eliminate, I said don't let them control us. Emotions should be our ***** not the other way around.
And in doing so labeling me as a bigot in the process. I'm not. I've given my explanation and it has nothing to do with malice toward anyone.
Really haven't labelled you a bigot.
However, the arguments being made against the inclusion of that couple - that it's "shoving (homosexuality) down people's throats" and that it's "just thrown in" - are inherently bigoted. They both label homosexuality as different from and unequal to heterosexuality. I explained how in my first post.
The one you haven't responded to except to exclaim repeatedly that I have called you a bigot when you are, in fact, not a bigot.
When I was playing, one of the minor bad guys got stuck in the ceiling, wasn't targetable with weapons or my BOFFS and kept shooting me while I was trying to help Kahless. In the end I had to use my Ophidian Cane to drain the life out of him, but waiting three minutes each recharge...it took me about 10-minutes to finally kill him.
And the best thing for me was the name-dropping of the Krenim...but I really wish they'd hinted more at what's going to happen!
happened to me too... however all you have to do is leave the room let the door close and come back in, the character is then gone and the you can proceed. sometimes the simplest answer is the best lol
No, I said that how it is written and presented doesn't really lend anything to the story as a whole. It's poor writing. It's like the guy telling you his first officer wears size 13 shoes. So what? What does that have to do with the story at hand?
You're attaching your own baggage to what I said and trying to associate me as a bigot and somehow saying TRIBBLE people aren't equal.
Except, as some people have pointed out, it does contribute to the story. It contributes atmosphere and characterization - we learn something about these characters. We learn about who and how they love and how they express it, which is a fairly massive part of the makeup of a sentient being.
It's characterization - the thing that attaches the reader to a story.
Lastly, why can't romance and relationships be the gist of a story?
It can, but this wasn't a love story. TRIBBLE characters can exist in stories that are not love stories. TRIBBLE people do other things beside stand around being TRIBBLE at each other all day.
Second, were it two men instead of two women or a man and a woman or a robot and a dward, and the dialogue written the same exact way, I'd still say it was bad writing.
It helped flesh out two minor characters and give them a bit of personality. That was it's purpose in the story.
And in doing so labeling me as a bigot in the process. I'm not. I've given my explanation and it has nothing to do with malice toward anyone.
You probably should take back the post where you wholeheartedly agreed with the guy who said that it only exists to pander to us mindless "culture drones", then. Especially since he's kinda-sorta advocating for eugenics, now.
Comments
That would be eugenics. I'm pretty sure that (if the idea that TRIBBLE people are "deviant" even still exists) the Eugenics Wars would have convinced people to ban that practice as dangerous and unethical.
/rant about eugenics as a flawed psuedo-science and the psychopathic politics of deciding what a "better" human being is goes here.
I examined your scenario. I found it lacking in merit.
That too. Since that's rather central to the point.
Here's a better question, lacking in merit based on what method of judging? Logic? Science? Sociology? Psychology? Economics? Or it just didn't feel right to you?
I'm a very cold and Logical person generally so don't take too much offense to what I say. I don't skirt around issues I get strait to the point, most people don't seem to appreciate this. :cool:
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Also, there's nothing blind people can do that sighted people can't do better, but Geordi was still born blind.
The Federation's technological development didn't result in the extinction of people like Geordi. Instead, it found a way to make him be able to positively contribute something to society that sighted people couldn't.
I'm not disagreeing that Eugenics is wrong I'm just presenting new ideas to foster discussion. What if the human Genome could be perfected and eliminate all deviance like alcoholism, homosexuality, greed, disease etc. would we even be human anymore when we're all just the same? See 'The Giver' for further analysis of this concept.
Interesting point, he eventually got new eyeballs but you do raise a good point. Which is all I'm trying to do.
I hate to break it to you, but discredited nineteenth century ideas of genetics and human potential don't make you "cold and logical." They make you, frankly, dumb. Ignoring what we know about the culture of we're talking about also doesn't make you cold and logical. It makes you ignorant and incapable of actually processing data that is presented to you.
I'm not sure what this has to do with House of Pegh, anymore.
Or even TRIBBLE Klingons, for that matter.
I was hoping to have an interesting, intellectual discussion but you did what I was afraid you might do. You started name-calling when you ran out of arguments. Here's another tip for you, calling people names doesn't invalidate their points. Most human beings are far too blinded by their beliefs to even consider other people's views, Your no exception I'm afraid. I didn't ask you to change anything I just raised a few interesting points for discussion. Well good bye now.
maybe in the future there will be no genders, just highly evolved humans.
procreation is simply a vehicle for the continuation of a species, with lifespans that permit a species to evolve according to [big list of things and ever changing]. it isn't unfeasible to assume that science will get to the point where life can be extended greatly and reproduced through DNA harvesting and cell manipulation. until then its worth remembering that it is people that contribute to society, not their sexual preferences, and diversity is 1 of the things that helps to stop the think pool from stagnating.
I'll note you never actually addressed any of my points. Which is rather important, given what you're accusing me of here.
I feared another case of Godwins law was or is on the way....
But on topic, I think the episode was quite good, it was short, way too short, I didn't overly raise my expectations too high, but it was alright, the mission had it's tense moments, and I was surprised at several points. But, just left me wanting more as it ended too quickly, and I'm not a tac, but a sci healer so that should say something :P.
The Spartans, samurai and many other warrior cultures not only accepted it, but celebrated it in their art and song. I can totally see the Klingons being baffled by the idea of someone having a problem with it.
Now this looks interesting!
My own opinion is that one cannot allow themselves to be ruled/ controlled by their impulses, emotions or other tendencies and instead put those aside and do what is best for society. But that's probably a rather extreme ideology for most people. For example, if it served society that I happened to have an interesting or unique trait that we needed more of, I would happily procreate with a women even though it contradicts my sexual preference. I believe overcoming silly things like impulse and emotion is the epitome of being human, and while we need not eliminate them we do need to control them and not the other way around.
Bashir was an invaluable member of the DS9 team that helped save the entire galaxy... Thanks to be genetically modified. You really aren't doing yourself any favors with that example my friend.
we will be destroyed by ourselves before a possible evolution. the bodies evolve faster than the way of thinking, and for now our way of thinking is the path to the destruction.
but I do not want to be pessimistic
So I wasn't the only one rooting for Lex Luther in Superman to blow up the planet? Lol I actually got mad at the Avengers in Age of Ultron for saving the planet. Lol
i dont think it does.. im all for a good discussion, especially when there are differing opinions, but when someone enters a discussion with the intent to bait and/or derail, that is pretty low, and quite frankly, if that is the case bloody annoying.
*edit
i think i missed a page.. this is now a solidly 'trekverse' discussion as opposed to real world prejudice, don't think i can offer much in that regard, i feel my way through Trek, haven't really studied it lol
That's not the viewpoint of the United Earth, though, and any discussion of what would happen in Star Trek has to be educated by the United Earth's ideology.
Emotion is a profoundly human thing in Trek - essential to the survival and success of humanity, and humanity's leading place in the Federation. So, within the context of the Trek universe, your basic belief is wrong - we know the rules of the Trek universe, because we see them played out every episode and every film.
Despite the fact that Star Trek: Insurrection contains references that basically state things like Sexual attraction have been lessened/ eliminated from most of society.
I didn't say eliminate, I said don't let them control us. Emotions should be our ***** not the other way around.
Really haven't labelled you a bigot.
However, the arguments being made against the inclusion of that couple - that it's "shoving (homosexuality) down people's throats" and that it's "just thrown in" - are inherently bigoted. They both label homosexuality as different from and unequal to heterosexuality. I explained how in my first post.
The one you haven't responded to except to exclaim repeatedly that I have called you a bigot when you are, in fact, not a bigot.
happened to me too... however all you have to do is leave the room let the door close and come back in, the character is then gone and the you can proceed. sometimes the simplest answer is the best lol
Except, as some people have pointed out, it does contribute to the story. It contributes atmosphere and characterization - we learn something about these characters. We learn about who and how they love and how they express it, which is a fairly massive part of the makeup of a sentient being.
It's characterization - the thing that attaches the reader to a story.
It can, but this wasn't a love story. TRIBBLE characters can exist in stories that are not love stories. TRIBBLE people do other things beside stand around being TRIBBLE at each other all day.
It helped flesh out two minor characters and give them a bit of personality. That was it's purpose in the story.
You probably should take back the post where you wholeheartedly agreed with the guy who said that it only exists to pander to us mindless "culture drones", then. Especially since he's kinda-sorta advocating for eugenics, now.