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RyanSTO's DPS Challenge ISA NX01

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  • cookiecupcakescookiecupcakes Member Posts: 91 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    No, no, no.... its the DPEWPEWPEWIAT League

    Woah it just occurred to me that i could talk in Rainbow Letters!!!

    Okay that was very tedious and i'm never doing that again.
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  • jarenriccarjarenriccar Member Posts: 248 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Woah it just occurred to me that i could talk in Rainbow Letters!!!

    Okay that was very tedious and i'm never doing that again.

    HAHAHA! A reply from Cookie on my first try! Win!


    Hi Cookie *waves*


    Edit: I dunno. it made me happy. don't judge me :P
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  • berginsbergins Member Posts: 3,448 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Woah it just occurred to me that i could talk in Rainbow Letters!!!

    Okay that was very tedious and i'm never doing that again.

    Since some colors don't have enough contrast with the background to be easily readable on smaller devices (like the phone I am currently on), all I have to say to that is Thank God.
    "Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow. Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell BAD." - Spock
  • spaceeagle20spaceeagle20 Member Posts: 971 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Woah it just occurred to me that i could talk in Rainbow Letters!!!

    Okay that was very tedious and i'm never doing that again.

    It's ok … as long as you don't pew pew in rainbow colours :P
    P58WJe7.jpg


  • synfoolasynfoola Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I dunno, gang...

    Seems to me that the "tinkerers" here, whether they be PVE DPS-league or PvP'ers or just someone who fiddles with the finer aspects of STO on their own, are providing a much needed boost to this game whether they intend to or not just by pushing the game mechanics to their limits while keeping an eye out for anything abnormal to either use to their advantage or report.

    How many times have we heard "we don't think it's that" or "we can't recreate this problem" from the dev team only to have players do just that, record it, and then showcase it on different media? It sure as heck wasn't anyone in the "well MY casual gaming experience is just FINE" camp.

    Even this video...what does it showcase? Teamwork, powers, desired gear/stats, aspects of game mechanics that could be overpowered or not. A casual player can learn a few things from vids like these as well as devs seeing this and then going, "OK...maybe something needs to be done". And then there's the motivation for players to go after said gear instead of just sitting there and saying, "I could never do that in my ship" whether through buying Zen or grinding for it. Either way, Cryptic gets their "metrics".

    So what's the problem?
  • shandypandyshandypandy Member Posts: 632 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    questerius wrote: »
    It's a nice trick and solid teamwork, but what these DPS videos are really showcasing is a serious flaw in the game mechanics.

    Tactical abilities like Attack Pattern Alpha and fire on my mark boost/debuff for all damage. Both weapon damage and exotic. Tactical players can lay down more effective GW/TR than science and better BFAW than engineers. Seriously?


    Tactical abilities should only have an effect on weapon damage.

    12 pages to find a post that is even partially relevant to the thread, and it is immediately followed by this:
    samt1996 wrote: »
    *insert random insult about entitlement*

    You CHOOSE to be an engineer and to fly cruisers knowing they aren't built to max-DPS so I'm not even gonna bother responding to your arguments.

    Well, you did respond to his argument, which you've then basically told us to ignore. Well done.
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  • synfoolasynfoola Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    reyan01 wrote: »
    I, personally, don't have one. What Ryan did is impressive (although it IS becoming a little too commonplace now in my opinion - we KNOW Ryan could obtain 99k DPS using nothing but a
    horga'hn, a tribble and a Epohh. We get it).

    But my beef is not with him, his video(s) per-se. In fact, his videos highlight a fundemental flaw in this game: namely that a Tactical Captain can use Sci/Eng powers better than a Sci/Eng Captain.
    Or to summarse; That there is VERY little that Sci or Eng can do that a Tac Captain can't do better. And that sucks.

    Oh, I agree with that, Rey-Rey. :)

    But I'm also glad that the evidence of this is sitting there out in the open for people to reference from player to dev. The past couple of months (heck, even the past week) has shown the effect that these vids can have in regards to swaying the conversation on debated things like the lag/rubberbanding problem so, while some people may not like the "salt in the wound" aspect of it, I'm glad they're still out there because Cryptic is going to have to be motivated to step up their balance game the more ridiculous these vids become.

    And, in the meantime, newer &/or casual players get the chance to learn how to better their combat experience within the current environment and keep that almighty metric grind wheel spinning for the company while they go after their gear/ships. :O
  • daunknownadmindaunknownadmin Member Posts: 96 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    thoth36 wrote: »
    I have no issues there, the only thing that i see differently is that i don't see were the sleight of hand is, or that there is any attempt at misleading other players.

    He even has a video were he goes through the replay of the run explaining what he was doing, just after spending 30 minutes explaining timings and power activations.
    I would tend to interpret that as an helpful thing rather than misleading.
    I have to cosign this. I've watched Ryan's videos and had my DPS just about doubled. no recluse, no plasma doping, and since I run mostly in pugs there certainly isn't a lot of teamwork involved. It was pretty much very basic stuff, like removing certain skills from my "mash the spacebar" keybind and activating them when appropriate, learning how and where to get GDF and learning where to position my ship at each encounter. Again, I've learned all this from his Youtube videos and asking questions on his Twitch stream. So I honestly don't see any epeen or trickery going on with Ryan and his videos. If anything, it's been the opposite.
  • aelfwin1aelfwin1 Member Posts: 2,891 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    synfoola wrote: »
    while some people may not like the "salt in the wound" aspect of it, I'm glad they're still out there because Cryptic is going to have to be motivated to step up their balance game the more ridiculous these vids become.

    The have to eh ?

    I wonder ... , how many times have Cryptic over reacted with fixes , using a sledgehammer were a couple of taps might have done a better job ?!

    And as a consequence of their bulldozer like efforts, how many "innocent players" got shafted because Cryptic have yet to learn the term "moderate adjustment" ?
    See , it's not "salt in the wound" , it's poking the bear with a stick ... -- the more vids , the more sticks ... .





    ... but what's really important to remember is there is no responsibility attached to the stick (or it's user) in this case , oh no , because they won't change the game ... , Cryptic will ... -- and the sticks and their users ... , well we will just call them innocent bystanders ... :rolleyes:
  • gl2814egl2814e Member Posts: 328 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    aelfwin1 wrote: »
    The have to eh ?

    I wonder ... , how many times have Cryptic over reacted with fixes , using a sledgehammer were a couple of taps might have done a better job ?!

    And as a consequence of their bulldozer like efforts, how many "innocent players" got shafted because Cryptic have yet to learn the term "moderate adjustment" ?
    See , it's not "salt in the wound" , it's poking the bear with a stick ... -- the more vids , the more sticks ... .





    ... but what's really important to remember is there is no responsibility attached to the stick (or it's user) in this case , oh no , because they won't change the game ... , Cryptic will ... -- and the sticks and their users ... , well we will just call them innocent bystanders ... :rolleyes:


    I disagree with the notion that Cryptic is grossly overreacting like a bear because someone pointed out. They're overreacting because they can't give vague noncommittal responses to videos and ignore the problems the videos highlight. You can only control your own actions and reactions and are ultimately responsible for the consequences.

    How they react to people calling them out on their flaws/inconsistencies is entirely on them.

    On topic, that is absolutely insane as a run.
  • jermbotjermbot Member Posts: 801 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I think this thread has great potential, as an example of how the word 'exploit' serves far better as a verb than a stand alone noun.

    The players in this video are exploiting various game mechanics. Which is to say, they are making full use of various game mechanics in order to achieve maximum benefit.

    That the maximum benefit allows a tier-1 vessel to do more than 7 times the damage necessary to comfortably complete the content is maybe something that should be looked at. Or maybe not, these players are an outlying case after all, and the majority of players are not doing anything close to that kind of damage.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,395 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    aelfwin1 wrote: »
    I wonder ... , how many times have Cryptic over reacted with fixes , using a sledgehammer were a couple of taps might have done a better job ?!

    And as a consequence of their bulldozer like efforts, how many "innocent players" got shafted because Cryptic have yet to learn the term "moderate adjustment" ?
    See , it's not "salt in the wound" , it's poking the bear with a stick ... -- the more vids , the more sticks ...


    The problem is that a certain Lead Dev (and his metrics) tend to make it personal, and feel they're in competition, as it were, with the upper echelon of the DPS League, like "You guys beat my isa?! Fine, then I''ll make it 10x harder!"

    Which is why the only time I got mildly upset over a vid RyanSTO et al. released, was when they did an isa with pets only. And not upset with them so much, as over the notion said certain Lead Dev, in a knee-jerk reaction, would immediately take the opportunity again to nerf pets even further. Fortunately, that didn't happen; but I feel the risk is always there.

    Which is why it's good to reiterate: just because the magician makes it look easy, doesn't mean it is.
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  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    The problem with ISA is that it provides a perfectly predictable scenario. It is why people parse it and nothing else, but the problem with this is that everywhere else you're going to get less DPS. It is the fundamental design of ISA that permits the massive DPS, with unshielded targets (which is one reason FAW effectiveness is overstated), targets on a fixed vector, and many targets that are going to get focus fired and thus seriously benefit the players from debuff stacking.

    Because of that, trying to nerf/balance things due to what is possible in ISA can have the effect of making things much harder everywhere else. Khitomer is a good example of this, of just how painfully slow that STF can run because it forces/expects people to spread out and deal with targets on their own, despite being basically the same as ISA. Is Ryan's tier 1 ship going to be able to handle KSA probes without any help?

    Honestly, doing fantastic DPS in ISA isn't impressive. It is, in a sense, like beating up dummies in a training room. Not that things can't be learned from it, especially the basics, but you end up building tactics towards beating up dummies as opposed to real situations, or in this case the more varied situations outside the overly predictable ISA.

    Unfortunately ISA DPS is all people put any value in as a number, despite the fact there are things to learn in other places too.
  • bluegeekbluegeek Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Captains,

    I feel that this thread is drifting somewhat off topic. Not entirely, but edging in that direction.

    I don't think the video was intended to be a referendum on DPS in STO and what Cryptic ought to do about it. That's a side discussion that's taking over the thread.

    I would like to suggest that people watch the video again (or just watch if you haven't seen it yet) and comment on what you see. Ask questions about it.

    Nothing wrong with side discussions, but if they're starting to dominate the conversation it might be time to take that discussion into a new thread.
    My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here
    Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
  • jack24bau3rjack24bau3r Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    bluegeek wrote: »
    Captains,

    I feel that this thread is drifting somewhat off topic. Not entirely, but edging in that direction.

    I don't think the video was intended to be a referendum on DPS in STO and what Cryptic ought to do about it. That's a side discussion that's taking over the thread.

    I would like to suggest that people watch the video again (or just watch if you haven't seen it yet) and comment on what you see. Ask questions about it.

    Nothing wrong with side discussions, but if they're starting to dominate the conversation it might be time to take that discussion into a new thread.

    oh wow cryptic mods are suggesting that we watch certain peoples youtube videos and then comment on it
  • lordmanzelotlordmanzelot Member Posts: 468 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    pffff nom nom nom

    I am tired of youtube-video-click-begging-stf-FAW-scimitar-look-how-cool-iam-threads
    Subscribed For: 2300+ Days
  • hipachilleshipachilles Member Posts: 195 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    EDIT: Just saw the comment from BlueGeek about direction of the thread. Disregard the post if you feel it is off-topic, but I feel it is certainly related to what Ryan did and most importantly HOW they did it.

    I hope the takeaway of this video is not that tac captain powers are too strong. I hope the takeaway is that a good pilot can do monumental damage in any ship, given an appropriately high amount of teamwork and power creep from personal traits, ship traits, rep traits, and specializations.

    To me, the real takeaway is that Cryptic seems to be lost in the never-ending cycle of adding "stuff" that can boost player damage to the point where millions of damage on a Tier 1 ship is possible in the span of 60 seconds. This is why NPC hit points end up going into the millions (are we at billions yet?) to compensate. The majority of players who haven't mastered the combination lock of which ability to fire at what time are left behind and, as a result, the advanced and elite queues are mostly empty.

    That being said, I think the force multiplier aspect needs to be nerfed somewhat and the tac captain abilities are a good place to start. Years ago, Thissler had the right of it when he pointed out that tactical "captain" abilities should have been stuck to the ship type (escort) to make sense at all. But the ship has sailed and we are where we are because of it.

    Anyways, here are my ideas:
    • Make the fleet powers (tac fleet, sci fleet, eng fleet) only buff other team members, not the casting player.
    • Split the damage strength boost of APA to be the same as current for energy weapons, but only a third of the current amount for kinetic.
    • APB overwrites lower versions (APB3 overwrites APB1, but APB1 does not overwrite APB3) and only one stack of APB (any version) on a single ship.
    • Grant higher resistances to NPCs, but lower their HPs.

    That limits the potential of tacs to buff "exotic" damage to astronomically high levels and corrects the force multiplier effect that tac captains grant themselves by casting both of those powers at once. The "fleet" power still works as a team-based buff and APA will still boost most weapon damage. Beta stacking is gone, but now multiple resistance debuffs are required to do immense damage. Teamwork gets buffed in a very different way.
  • spaceeagle20spaceeagle20 Member Posts: 971 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Thanks! :) Treating it as just a training session is probably a very good idea, to take the pressure off and all. I still find it very hard to keep my eye on the enemy, and still watch for that small refresh cycle window; but I'll keep trying. :)
    And don't forget the Holy Commandment : " Primum FUN, deinde DPS " ;)
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  • jermbotjermbot Member Posts: 801 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    reyan01 wrote: »
    That is a problem in itself, as it makes a complete mockery of Cryptic's 'Tier' system.

    Irrespective of the fact that it was RyGod who acheived it and regardless of how it was acheived, it does prove that it can be done. And honestly - what's the point in having 'tiers' of ships when, under the right circumstances, a T1 ship can outperform the average player's T6 ship by a factor of seven?


    The Tier-1 ship in question has 3 ensign level boff powers, 4 consoles, 2 of them tac, and 3 weapons hard points. I won't risk the ire of our resident super mod too much by belaboring the point but I think it's at a sufficient enough disadvantage in comparison to higher tier ships that the tier system is not mocked.

    This feat was performed in spite of the ship choice. Which is why it's so notable, as either a testament to the capabilities of skilled players coming together, the badly balanced nature of certain mechanics, or the laughably easy nature of this game's PVE end game. You know, whichever interpretation you're choosing.
  • bluegeekbluegeek Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    oh wow cryptic mods are suggesting that we watch certain peoples youtube videos and then comment on it

    The thread is about a specific video. If you have not seen the video, how can you make any legitimate observation about it? It's just common sense.

    I'm not even suggesting that everybody go watch every video RyanSTO's ever made. Frankly, I don't care whether anybody does. If you don't want to, don't.

    But I am getting complaints about this thread and my own observation (about the thread) is that it is getting needlessly off-topic and contentious. It might help to stay on topic if the people posting have actually seen the video.

    Some posters clearly have. Others I'm not so sure about.
    My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here
    Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
  • darthraiderxxxdarthraiderxxx Member Posts: 200 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    and this is gaming,what all gone in 30 sec,,,boring....faw,,faawwwwww,,.....jebes to.:rolleyes:

    Yeah, indeed a lot of faw from that tier 1 ship that had 3 torpedos equipped....:rolleyes:

    Why even comment on a video if you did not even bother to watch it?
  • jarvisandalfredjarvisandalfred Member Posts: 1,549 Bug Hunter
    edited May 2015
    bluegeek wrote: »
    It might help to stay on topic if the people posting have actually seen the video.

    Some posters clearly have. Others I'm not so sure about.
    and this is gaming,what all gone in 30 sec,,,boring....faw,,faawwwwww,,.....jebes to.:rolleyes:
    Yeah, indeed a lot of faw from that tier 1 ship that had 3 torpedos equipped....:rolleyes:

    Why even comment on a video if you did not even bother to watch it?

    This timing could literally not have been better.

    Ryan is so good that his TS's look like FAW. Man. Stuff like this makes me push harder.
    SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci

    SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci

    Tacs are overrated.

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