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Buff Mines

praxi5praxi5 Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
Why?
  1. The damage is pathetic
  2. Aft-firing only, while thematically correct, places yet another limitaiton on them
  3. BOff abilities are relatively expensive - they start at LT and occupy slots that compete with far more desirable abilities
  4. The nature of STO's combat means that that vast majority of mines are wasted
  5. Limited Traits
  6. +Torp Spire consoles (widely used by Torp boats due to mixing and matching Torps) don't do squat for mines
  7. Current mechanics leave them with a triple disadvantage; they have to be dropped within/have an enemy close range, they have long travel times to targets, and are destrucible by even the slightest AoE damage for their entire existence


Yes yes yes, you can make them work, just like you can make an Engineer do DPS. That's all piloting, which is by far the most important skill you can have. But that doesn't meant that they're not at a disadvantage compared to others.
Post edited by praxi5 on

Comments

  • historynerd1historynerd1 Member Posts: 100 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I have to agree to with you. The proof for me is that CritDx3 mines drop quite a bit but their damage is so bad I don't even give them a second look.
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  • aesicaaesica Member Posts: 736 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    How to fix mines: Give every ship a new item slot, reserved exclusively for mines.

    That's it. Now every ship can (and should) use mines without having to give up a slot for something generally regarded as more useful.
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  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I think moving dispersal pattern alpha down one rank would be awesome. Since there's no DPA3, it wouldn't be too hard.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    1) Convert Mine Launchers to Cluster Launchers.
    2) Remove DPA.
    3) Remove DPB.
    4) Have HY apply DPB to the Cluster (dropping a larger cluster of mines at the target).
    5) Have TS apply DPA to the Cluster (dropping a string of mines along the way to the target).
    6) Convert Mine PWOs to Torp PWOs.
    7) Have Torp PWOs affect Cluster Launchers.
    8) Make the Tethered Quantums Friendly Target (attach to self or ally).
    9) Convert Generic Mine Consoles to Generic Torp Consoles.
    10) Convert Mine boosts to Torp boosts.
    11) Have Torp boosts affect Clusters.
    12) Add blind fire Cluster to R&D (Cluster that doesn't require a target and travels a specific distance).

    Etc, etc, etc...you get the idea.
  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    praxi5 wrote: »
    Why?
    1. The damage is pathetic
    2. Aft-firing only, while thematically correct, places yet another limitaiton on them
    3. BOff abilities are relatively expensive - they start at LT and occupy slots that compete with far more desirable abilities
    4. The nature of STO's combat means that that vast majority of mines are wasted
    5. Limited Traits
    6. +Torp Spire consoles (widely used by Torp boats due to mixing and matching Torps) don't do squat for mines
    7. Current mechanics leave them with a triple disadvantage; they have to be dropped within/have an enemy close range, they have long travel times to targets, and are destrucible by even the slightest AoE damage for their entire existence


    Yes yes yes, you can make them work, just like you can make an Engineer do DPS. That's all piloting, which is by far the most important skill you can have. But that doesn't meant that they're not at a disadvantage compared to others.

    Damage is pathetic...... Have we so quickly forgotten when tricobalt CRTDx3 mines were destroying fully healed tac cubes in cure space (then elite) with all probes healing it below it?

    Believe me, I'd love to have the projectile weapons re-worked, especially mines. I used to run the B'Rel with 2 mines aft, 2 cluster torps fore with 2 normal torps fore as well with mine consoles in tactical. The vaadwaar were destroying almost all the mines, even when deployed while the B'Rel was touching their ships. The Vaadwaar negated most of my best damaging projectiles. Using HY made some torps targetable, and those were destroyed more often than not, so I switched to spread or no torp mods and it became a long-drawn out duel of attrition instead of a deadly pass of torps and mines.
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    edited May 2015
    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1460201

    Also contributed to this discussion.
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  • edited May 2015
    This content has been removed.
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Meh.

    Kinetic Damage vs Shields.
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  • abaddon653abaddon653 Member Posts: 1,144 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    1) Convert Mine Launchers to Cluster Launchers.
    2) Remove DPA.
    3) Remove DPB.
    4) Have HY apply DPB to the Cluster (dropping a larger cluster of mines at the target).
    5) Have TS apply DPA to the Cluster (dropping a string of mines along the way to the target).
    6) Convert Mine PWOs to Torp PWOs.
    7) Have Torp PWOs affect Cluster Launchers.
    8) Make the Tethered Quantums Friendly Target (attach to self or ally).
    9) Convert Generic Mine Consoles to Generic Torp Consoles.
    10) Convert Mine boosts to Torp boosts.
    11) Have Torp boosts affect Clusters.
    12) Add blind fire Cluster to R&D (Cluster that doesn't require a target and travels a specific distance).

    Etc, etc, etc...you get the idea.

    Perfect...stupid ten letter requirement.
  • unsacredgraveunsacredgrave Member Posts: 150 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    you should use dmg3 mines. crit, acc or anything else is totally wasted. especially on plasma mines, because the dmg mod increases the DoT dmg too. than use the hirogen trait, it increases mine range to 6km. you will need the r&d trait too to increase shield pen.

    and in general... I think ALL torps and mines are toally useless, except plasma and tranny - and maybe neutronic - but on spread it got nerfed hard. and if you dont fly an exclusive torp boat, torps and mines are a waste too. never ever mix energy and kinetic dmg, bc every energy weapon will do more dps.

    On my torp sci I use 2 plasma mines in the rear and use them like torpedoes. just have to stay under 6km. think this is the only way to use them properly.
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    You forgot something else Praxi:

    Long shared CD that ALL mines share with ALL other mines and cannot be gotten around (compared to the mere 1 second most torps share with other torps).

    Plus just long CDs in general, on average 15-20 seconds at least, and their CD reduction DOFFs are also Projectile DOFFs, and there are better options available for those as well, let alone how rarely they seem to proc.

    Damage though, I'm not sure. If you are willing to really push them, you can get some good numbers out of em. Crits are really your friend here, and using the small AoE function of mines to get more damage out of them by hitting multiple targets at the same time.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    mimey2 wrote: »
    You forgot something else Praxi:

    Long shared CD that ALL mines share with ALL other mines and cannot be gotten around (compared to the mere 1 second most torps share with other torps).

    Plus just long CDs in general, on average 15-20 seconds at least, and their CD reduction DOFFs are also Projectile DOFFs, and there are better options available for those as well, let alone how rarely they seem to proc.

    Damage though, I'm not sure. If you are willing to really push them, you can get some good numbers out of em. Crits are really your friend here, and using the small AoE function of mines to get more damage out of them by hitting multiple targets at the same time.

    I could see lowering the CDs, but the shared CD was because (if I remember correctly) people were spamming mines (and pets) and causing lag
  • sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,823 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    i would like also changes, i use mines on some ships, most of the time against the heralds (mir fighters, baltrim raiders). But mines should be more efficient against big mobs.

    i would like to have also the choice, for the rep sets. there is often a torp in the sets, if they could add the option of having also mines, this would be cool.

    example:

    http://sto.gamepedia.com/Counter_Command_Ordnance

    the choice between the torp or mines.
  • alex284alex284 Member Posts: 366 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    beameddown wrote: »
    I would say the best fix for mines is, 10k RANGE to move to and SPEED to get there

    So... uh... the solution to mines is to make them torps?
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,896 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    So many things wrong with mines...they should do more damage for such the high cooldown...they're pretty much useless without a DP.

    At the very least they should reduce the cooldown of DP's so they line up more with the cooldown of mines...like a CD of 20 seconds.

    I think at the very least they shouldn't be targetable till armed...or instantly arm right after deployment...they sit far to long doing nothing before they spring into action.

    They should have a much higher evasion rate...targetable torps should as well to be honest...I mean how is it harder for me with at the very least 10-20% bonus accuracy to hit the big giant plasma ball unimatrix ships spew out then for any random npc to hit tiny mines? (One of multiple double standards that bugs me)
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Heh, I love Tricobalt bombing! :D Especially since the Dispersal pattern has the same length of CD as the mine itself.

    Other mines are less fun. But Trics make a massive bang. Sure they're not necessarily an insta-kill for cubes now but they do a nice amount of damage.
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  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    rmy1081 wrote: »
    I could see lowering the CDs, but the shared CD was because (if I remember correctly) people were spamming mines (and pets) and causing lag

    An understandable thing, but even if that doesn't change for that reason, mines still don't do enough damage to justify their long CDs and shared CDs.

    Even then, there's SO MANY more pets and other such things in the game since that change must've been made that how can that really be a good enough reason anymore?

    Anyways...mines at the absolute least need a damage increase if nothing else. With their long CDs and shared CDs, the launch and arming sequence taking several seconds by itself, and how slow mines themselves are TO actually get to a target, by the time all that has gone through, you could've launched waves of torpedoes, including a torp ability or two before you can fire ONE mine launcher again. Sure you can combo mines and torps for a one-two punch of projectiles, like a TS 3 and DPB 3, but you can get a lot of mileage out of just torps alone as well, without worrying at all about mines.

    Really, anymore than one mine launcher, unless it's some special one (like the Tractor Beam mines) , and/or part of a set (like the Tachyon mines), there's not much point.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • narthaisnarthais Member Posts: 452 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Heh, I love Tricobalt bombing! :D Especially since the Dispersal pattern has the same length of CD as the mine itself.

    Other mines are less fun. But Trics make a massive bang. Sure they're not necessarily an insta-kill for cubes now but they do a nice amount of damage.

    They're also effected by the same skill that increases the disable time on viral matrix, not sure by how much to be honest but it effects them and gives trico mines a little added utility.
  • fovrelfovrel Member Posts: 1,448 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Compare mines with the Romulan Plasma torpedo.

    Every 6 seconds you have three plasma projectiles, can be buffed by THY and TS, launch time can be buffed by a doff. Mines, every 16 seconds you can launch 4 projectiles, they do nothing unless they get aggro.

    Do not take me wrong, I like mines and use them. They are great on a science ship aimed at shield stripping, but as soon as you have access to the Romulan torpedo, it is by far the better option to have as a rear launcher.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    fovrel wrote: »
    Compare mines with the Romulan Plasma torpedo.

    Every 6 seconds you have three plasma projectiles, can be buffed by THY and TS, launch time can be buffed by a doff. Mines, every 16 seconds you can launch 4 projectiles, they do nothing unless they get aggro.

    Do not take me wrong, I like mines and use them. They are great on a science ship aimed at shield stripping, but as soon as you have access to the Romulan torpedo, it is by far the better option to have as a rear launcher.
    The trick with using mines is to predict where your enemy will be and place the mines there. It's easiest with slow moving or immobile targets, but doable even on moving targets.
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  • jstewart55jstewart55 Member Posts: 412 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I don't want them naked.
  • praxi5praxi5 Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    The trick with using mines is to predict where your enemy will be and place the mines there. It's easiest with slow moving or immobile targets, but doable even on moving targets.

    Which you don't have to do with their torpedo counterparts, for essentially the same damage, but lower overall damage due to a much higher CD and BOff requirement.
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Way back, when we were testing the Intel Abilities, there were thoughts on mines. One was for transport torpedo bit to be for mines instead. I mean, if you're GOING to transport a bomb, why not just transport a bomb? But yes, mine ideas are kicking around.

    I think the BESTEST buff would just be moving them back to engineering.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    thissler wrote: »
    Way back, when we were testing the Intel Abilities, there were thoughts on mines. One was for transport torpedo bit to be for mines instead. I mean, if you're GOING to transport a bomb, why not just transport a bomb? But yes, mine ideas are kicking around.

    I think the BESTEST buff would just be moving them back to engineering.

    Was that in Beta? I don't remember mines as anything other than tactical.

    Not sure it would help. I mean, it would give Cruisers / Engineering heavy ship a few more offense minded options, but I am not convinced mines are good enough to matter. I guess a Cmdr Level Mine Pattern might compare more favourably to Aceton Beam or Eject Warp Plasma then it does to Attack Pattern Omega, but that is not saying much.
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  • adrianasrxadrianasrx Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    All you really have to do is A) look on the exchange and see how much mines will sell for. B) check your metrics for the amount of people using mines and you as devs should see how poorly mines perform
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    adrianasrx wrote: »
    All you really have to do is A) look on the exchange and see how much mines will sell for. B) check your metrics for the amount of people using mines and you as devs should see how poorly mines perform
    C: check the number of people with the Vaadwaur cluster torpedo upgraded to epic. :P
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  • tgo533tgo533 Member Posts: 192 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    l love mines on my kazon raider. But they need to make a few changes to make them proper.

    1. Dont de-spawn them... I hate this one thing the most. I use DPB3... leave mines.... next time I try to launch more mines... the first ones go away.... This is just pure TRIBBLE. I want to see ships coming and set up a mine field between them and me. But no... 1 DPA3 or DPB3 is all you get. If you put more out the others de-spawn. If leaving all the mines is not possible for some reason, give mines a 2 minute lifespan, and allow us to make a "field" of mines. Mines should be the only thing that does not go away until the hit something or something hits them.

    2. Allow cloaking mines with a boff ability. AOE like FAW will remove every mine in seconds. Let me use a low level boff ability to cloak a mine release. I dont even care if they decloak when they get a target and start moving or if the cloak only lasts 10 seconds. I just hate throwing out 16 mines to see them do NOTHING because FAW=counter to anything.

    3. Drop the shared cooldown... this is just stupid and I am sure its due to the same reasons for #1. They do not want 500 mines sitting around the map.... and yet they have no issues whatsoever with 8 beam FAW cruiser, or a insta kill TS3 with 20 torps. The torp boats do not have a shared cooldown... so they can spam. I can not spam mines... and if i do they de-spawn my older ones.
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