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Are cannons even viable in endgame?

bogardanbogardan Member Posts: 35 Arc User
I've heard this repeated time and again: Cannons can't hold a candle to beam weapons in endgame damage dealing. Is this true? If so, why isn't this being fixed? I thought cannons were supposed to be meant for high damage dealing.. if this isn't the case, why are they even in the game? It just worries me that the balance leans so completely towards beam weapons that you basically get raged at for bringing anything else.
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  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    "cannons"=single cannons were trash from the beginning. Dual heavy cannons are still very viable, and very precise (focused dps vs. bfaw-all-you-can-hit-dps). You wont make records with them, but enemies will die fast and to answer your question: Dual heavy cannons are viable in endgame. Downside of them is simple: You have to be a good pilot to maximize damage.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    "Are cannons even viable in endgame?"

    There's a big difference between content requirements and player potential.

    Are you talking about being able to complete content with more than enough DPS or are you talking about competing at the top of the DPS League tables?
  • bogardanbogardan Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    "Are cannons even viable in endgame?"

    There's a big difference between content requirements and player potential.

    Are you talking about being able to complete content with more than enough DPS or are you talking about competing at the top of the DPS League tables?

    a bit of both would be nice. It just seems off that one weapon type is so dominant over another, especially since if i am to believe cryptic, the whole idea with cannons is to deal MASSIVE amounts of damage. What's the point of them if, even when you're flying around and making the best of your turnrate/strafe runs whilst dodging explosions, you end up behind the people orbiting at 10km just rolling the keys in response to what happens? I'm just a little confused as to how such a high-risk weapon can have such a lousy reward. [edit] Also: Why are cannon abilities one tier higher than beam abilities?[/edit]
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    When I leave ESD with the objective of scoring dps figures, I take beams, when I leave with killing things in mind, I take cannons.
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  • rezkingrezking Member Posts: 1,109 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    bogardan wrote: »
    I've heard this repeated time and again: Cannons can't hold a candle to beam weapons in endgame damage dealing. Is this true? If so, why isn't this being fixed? I thought cannons were supposed to be meant for high damage dealing.. if this isn't the case, why are they even in the game? It just worries me that the balance leans so completely towards beam weapons that you basically get raged at for bringing anything else.

    Regardless of what you read, NO, Cannons are not viable.
    Not anymore, at least.
    Cannons were nerfed a while back, giving you the lack of oomph at distances just outside spitting range.
    You may read statements like "they're great for close distances" or some tard statement like that BUT any p2w n00b can broadside with AP's and kill anything inbound before it breaks the 7km range.
    Meanwhile, your "Dual Heavy Cannons" are just nibbling away at their shield facing in the same amount of time.
    If a DHC's lack of firing arc is their inherent gimp, then it should be doing SUPERIOR damage at 8km...but we aren't seeing that.

    TL;dr - Cannons < Beams 'cause teh Enterprise used Beams.
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  • bogardanbogardan Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    rezking wrote: »
    Regardless of what you read, NO, Cannons are not viable.
    Not anymore, at least.
    Cannons were nerfed a while back, giving you the lack of oomph at distances just outside spitting range.
    You may read statements like "they're great for close distances" or some tard statement like that BUT any p2w n00b can broadside with AP's and kill anything inbound before it breaks the 7km range.
    Meanwhile, your "Dual Heavy Cannons" are just nibbling away at their shield facing in the same amount of time.
    If a DHC's lack of firing arc is their inherent gimp, then it should be doing SUPERIOR damage at 8km...but we aren't seeing that.

    TL;dr - Cannons < Beams 'cause teh Enterprise used Beams.

    I actually feel this is the case. It just seems that the falloff should not even be here anymore, because with all the maneuvering, you barely get to use the cannons to begin with unless you're in a raider, but then you're too weak to tank the explosions you'll run in to.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    bogardan wrote: »
    because with all the maneuvering, you barely get to use the cannons to begin with unless you're in a raider, but then you're too weak to tank the explosions you'll run in to.

    I'd very much like to see your piloting as I've never had this problem. The new pilot ships make target tracking even easier (as if it were difficult to follow near straight lines in the first place). I manage quite easily with my FPER (built for speed over damage) to sustain 20k dps and that's using CRF and HYT, I could do more with CSV and TS.

    So yeah, if you're having issues this serious with DHCs, I would suggest the faults are in your build and your piloting rather than the ships or the weapons.
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • kozar2kozar2 Member Posts: 602 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    There are two problems with cannons but it could be fixed by addressing one.

    1. The first as already stated is that the damage at range is almost nothing. The problem this creates is that your full weapon power shots all happen at range and when you get in close your weapon power is often down so you get double wammied.

    2. With the arc for DHC only being 45 degrees you need to be aimed directly at your target but with a fast ship (most escorts) you need to fly out past your targets and circle back around for kills (doing no damage) a lot of the time. If you don't go out a fair distance you get 1/2 second on your target and need to do several runs. The only exceptions are those that park and shoot in Scims which can pump out the 50k dps, without pedal to the metal.

    The solution would be to have cannons do 80% damage from 5-10k and 100% closer. It would even out some of the beam advantage.


    In pve a cruiser without FAW will out DPS and escort running cannons with cannon skills.
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Cannons are not topping any DPS League figures. They just can't compete in the application of damage.

    Traditionally, the one thing that Cannons were good at was focused damage dealing and single target spiking. That's if you were sticking to regular Tactical buffs like CRF/CSV vs BFAW/BO.

    The problem with BFAW is that it scatters its damage all around, so the damage is diffused. But then again, if the team are BFAW monsters, then there's nothing to worry about. Everything within range of the team is dying. Also, once clutter/trash NPCs are cleared away, then BFAW starts to really shine on single targets. The usefulness of Cannons and Beam Overload are rendered pointless.

    Also, abilities that buff all energy weapon types will blur the lines. Surgical Strikes, Reroute to Weapons buffs all energy weapon types.

    Next, you have the tactical flexibility, friendliness of Beams over Cannons.

    1. Cannons' damage drops off dramatically with range. Beams? The range is more forgiving.

    2. Beams are more flexible with their arcs and still solid application of damage. Forward arc heavy build? DHCs you say? LOL! You seen what a 5 fwd DBB build can do with BFAW3? Or with Surgical Strikes for target focus? On top of DBBs having a much wider arc than DHCs.

    3. The generic Beamboat is much safer to fly tactically than a Cannons boat. To fly a Beamboat, all you simply need to do is broadside. Very easy to maintain arcs on target. More importantly, you get to keep moving at higher throttle settings all the time. That means higher Bonus Defense. That means more things missing you. That means less TRIBBLE you gotta heal.

    Then on the flipside is the Cannons boat, especially DHC/DC builds. To do your best damage, you need to be in very close range to the target. And to maintain that firing arc, you are either going to come to a dead halt and act like a "Turret" or cut speed, movement dramatically. Either way, your Bonus Defense is going to tank to the negative or drop to near zero levels. That means more things hitting you. That means more TRIBBLE you gotta heal. And if you're facing Heralds, this is bad, BAD news!

    Of course, you can offset that by flying attack runs, i.e. strafing attacks. But that means lots of time your DHCs/DCs are not on target. That means you not doing damage compared to the rest of your team.
    =====

    Cannons are viable at endgame play. You can deal respectable damage. But it requires too tight set of parameters to play well and exposes you to far more dangers.

    Beams are simply superior in damage application, potentially even in single target damage focus. They also are much easier, safer to fly while you apply respectable damage.
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  • fatman592fatman592 Member Posts: 1,207 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Cannons are viable at endgame play. You can deal respectable damage. But it requires too tight set of parameters to play well and exposes you to far more dangers.

    Beams are simply superior in damage application, potentially even in single target damage focus. They also are much easier, safer to fly while you apply respectable damage.

    ^Exactly this. /Close thread.

    While cannons won't top the DPS charts, DHCs put out a good amount of damage. Cannon Scatter Volley with some Attack Pattern Beta spam and Gravity Well can still get the job done against mobs. I used to be a cannon enthusiast, but I got tired of the park and shoot. Beams are just superior in every way.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    fatman592 wrote: »
    ^Exactly this. /Close thread.

    While cannons won't top the DPS charts, DHCs put out a good amount of damage. Cannon Scatter Volley with some Attack Pattern Beta spam and Gravity Well can still get the job done against mobs. I used to be a cannon enthusiast, but I got tired of the park and shoot. Beams are just superior in every way.
    yeah, I hate park and shoot, speed tanking is life!
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    My character Tsin'xing
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Nose in...target dead...next target...may not be moving, but always moving.
  • jarvisandalfredjarvisandalfred Member Posts: 1,549 Bug Hunter
    edited May 2015
    adamkafei wrote: »
    When I leave ESD with the objective of scoring dps figures, I take beams, when I leave with killing things in mind, I take cannons.

    Ahh, still stuck in the past. DPS kills things. Even the trolls moved on from that stupid claim several months ago.

    rezking wrote: »
    Regardless of what you read, NO, Cannons are not viable.
    Not anymore, at least.
    Cannons were nerfed a while back, giving you the lack of oomph at distances just outside spitting range.
    You may read statements like "they're great for close distances" or some tard statement like that BUT any p2w n00b can broadside with AP's and kill anything inbound before it breaks the 7km range.
    Meanwhile, your "Dual Heavy Cannons" are just nibbling away at their shield facing in the same amount of time.
    If a DHC's lack of firing arc is their inherent gimp, then it should be doing SUPERIOR damage at 8km...but we aren't seeing that.

    TL;dr - Cannons < Beams 'cause teh Enterprise used Beams.

    Your TL;DR and your opening statement are at odds. Cannons are viable. They're not optimal, but they'll certainly get the job done - if you could get the job done with beams, that is.
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  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    patrickngo wrote: »
    I run BoPs and the new Pilot ships. In general, if you're looking for max DPS for the parsers, you don't run cannons, you run AP single-beam-array BFAW spam backed with APB.

    While you're doing that, I'm spike-killing targets with DHC's and drawing all your aggro off you even with -th consoles.

    Oh, and dying more often than you are. It's what happens when the abused mob focuses all fire and intel abilities on the fast ship that's making attack passes instead of the BFAW cruiser.

    it is what it is.

    Fighting Heralds with DHCs is the spiciest form of play in STO right now :cool:
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  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    bogardan wrote: »
    I've heard this repeated time and again: Cannons can't hold a candle to beam weapons in endgame damage dealing. Is this true? If so, why isn't this being fixed? I thought cannons were supposed to be meant for high damage dealing.. if this isn't the case, why are they even in the game? It just worries me that the balance leans so completely towards beam weapons that you basically get raged at for bringing anything else.

    Don't rely on what you "hear" -- try it for yourself. Below, I when I say beams, I mean dual banks, not arrays.

    Cannons are viable but weaker than beams. A short list of cannon issues:
    - damage falloff. If you are more than about 4k from your target, Dual beams hit as hard without the disadvantages.

    - aoe: beam aoe is better, it hits a wider arc, fires any weapon on the ship that has a target.

    - aft weapons. AP beams, the flavor of choice by many players, have 3 aft 360 arrays. This would be like having 360 degree single cannon afts weapons -- except no such thing exists for cannons. The beam afts hit harder than turrets, significantly. Yes, DHC hit harder than the beam boat's front weapons, except they don't because of damage falloff and arc (target not in arc is not being shot at)

    - crafting trait adds damage for beams, but not for cannons.

    - cannons cost +1 officer skill level for same skill. CRF rank 1 is a LT skill. FAW 1 is an ensign skill. A cannon ship without a CMDR tac seat is gimped. A cannon ship even with a cmdr tac seat is losing out on a pattern beta or something that is not available at ensign level but should have been at cmdr level but wasn't because you needed cmdr level for scatter fire or something...

    - beams seem to work better with surgical strikes, due to rate of fire.

    - beams work better with pedal to the metal due to arc and range etc issues.

    - boss mechanics. Many bosses and bosslets have mechanics that make nose-to-hull cannon damage assault unwise or in some cases, not possible.

    Out of all that cannons have only ONE advantage. Cannon hit harder on a single target at point blank range. The best use of this is bosses/bosslets. See above on not getting close to bosses and bosslets. The trash enemy are best killed with AOE. See above on weak cannon AOE.

    That does not mean cannons are not viable. It just means they are harder to build a ship for, harder to pilot said ship, and generally somewhat less effective in most combat scenarios. Less effective though is talking about a game where people are hitting over 100k DPS and only about 10k dps is "required" for even difficult content. When damage can reach a FACTOR of 10 above "more than good enough for anything" then you have a great deal of leeway in which to make less good gear work "better than good enough". You can do more than enough damage with cannons, and enjoy the style of flying around killing one thing at a time (which is FUN). I have a couple of cannon ships and I love them. But they are what they are, play them, love them, but realize the truth about them as well --- they need a revamp pass from the devs.
  • agentdunnagentdunn Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    It's a sad thing really, I have 2 ships that i run. A T5u JHDC that is your standard standard AP FAW-spammer with DBB's, omnis and KCB that gives me 18-20k without really paying much attention, alongside that I run my FT5u Ar'Kif with the standard 4 DHC's, 2 turrets with the KCB which if i really focus on what im doing puts out 16k, on a very good day (im looking at you lag).

    Wanna know which is more fun to fly? The 'Kif, i dont know why it just FEELS more fun to me, yes it does less damage and its far from optimal but its viable as long as you change what viable means.

    Viable as in "kill everything on screen as fast as possible" then probably not, but viable as in "wow im actually having fun" then yes, they are viable.

    Run whatever you want for whatever reason, if having fun for you is hitting top DPS then faw-spam that cruiser, but if that isnt for you, i still giggle whenever i decide to put a hargh'peng on the back of my kif and leave my enemies in my wake looking like they have a serious case of the munchies.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Ahh, still stuck in the past. DPS kills things. Even the trolls moved on from that stupid claim several months ago.

    What I find odd is that when cannons were the thing I found them boring, I used beams on virtually everything and found them quite powerful, now beams are on top I find them to be less fun and I've made my cannons more effective. What I find really funny is that pre-DR my beam builds did twice the dps of my DHCs, now it's the other way around.
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Where "viable" means qualifying for the 10k DPS channel, they're definitely "viable".
    bogardan wrote: »
    What's the point of them if, even when you're flying around and making the best of your turnrate/strafe runs whilst dodging explosions, you end up behind the people orbiting at 10km just rolling the keys in response to what happens?
    If you're doing less damage than people orbiting at 10km, then you're really really really bad at this.

    Single cannons are the worst weapons in the game (next to turrets) and at 2km they'll still do something like triple the DPS of beams at 10km.

    All energy weapons (normally) have damage drop off from range. Kinetic weapons do not.

    At high levels of play, captains are pretty much hugging targets regardless of what energy weapon type they're using. At which point DHCs/DCs will be doing higher DPS - it's just more difficult because they have a more limited arc.
    bogardan wrote: »
    Also: Why are cannon abilities one tier higher than beam abilities?
    Before we had so much access to ways to avoid/negate/counter weapon power drain, it used to be Escorts Online and DHCs were king. It was a balance of sorts.
    adamkafei wrote: »
    What I find odd is that when cannons were the thing I found them boring, I used beams on virtually everything and found them quite powerful, now beams are on top I find them to be less fun and I've made my cannons more effective. What I find really funny is that pre-DR my beam builds did twice the dps of my DHCs, now it's the other way around.

    So you're like a weapons hipster? You don't like them when they're mainstream? :P:D
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    darkjeff wrote: »
    So you're like a weapons hipster? You don't like them when they're mainstream? :P:D

    Exactly! Also, thanks for giving me the word I was looking for, it was starting to irritate me.
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  • wotertoolwotertool Member Posts: 96 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I remember the time where I aquired the Advanced Escort, the Prometheus Class.

    I really wished that I could use beams on it to be closer to the show (as far as I know, the Prometheus never fired cannons ? I could be wrong), but the general opinion was that everyone who was flying an escort or a bird of prey with beams is a giantic .... well, bad player ^^

    It's interesting how this has changed.
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    There is a catch however with traits to work out for cannons.

    R&D Lv15 Beam & Cannon Schools bring a trait, Beam Barrage and Deft Cannoneer, respectively. Beam Barrage is All Damage bonus while Deft Cannoneer improves ship handling.

    To get Beam Barrage proc going, you need to fire beam abilities like BFAW, BO. To get Deft Cannoneer going, you need to fire cannon abilities like CRF, CSV. Depending the ship and BOFF layout, stuffing cannon and beam abilities may or may not be feasible. Easy to do on TAC heavy Escorts but most Cruisers would have a difficult time, especially when trying to retain an Attack Pattern and Tactical Team.

    However, Reroute to Weapons (Pilot) kicks off both Beam Barrage & Deft Cannoneer because RrtW enhanced both cannon and beam abilities. I have not tried it with Intel's Surgical Strikes but it wouldn't surprise me if the same holds true, because SS buffs both cannon & beam weaponry.
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Still can't believe that they changed Beam Barrage to allow FAW to stack it...meh.
  • rezkingrezking Member Posts: 1,109 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    bogardan wrote: »
    I actually feel this is the case. It just seems that the falloff should not even be here anymore, because with all the maneuvering, you barely get to use the cannons to begin with unless you're in a raider, but then you're too weak to tank the explosions you'll run in to.

    The majority of these people still don't see the problem:

    Cannons are inherently gimped YET are subjected to a nerf.

    I think it's time to right this past wrong.
    Give us back our Cannons.
    NO to ARC
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  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Cannons do need something done about the falloff.

    Essentially you have a weapon (in the case of DHCs) that should do more damage in a concentrated arc, but because of falloff and lower arc you haven't got that. You've gotta get in close to be on par with beams, that means you either overshoot or have weapons "off-target" a lot of the time, or, you go slow meaning your more likely to blow up.

    Beam boats can fly round all day long at full impulse and not worry about any of that.

    Combine in the lower level beam boff abilities plus things like beam barrage being a damage boost vs deft cannoneer being a movement boost and it's no wonder beams are king.

    Cannons = single target, spike damage with a small amount of AOE with CSV.

    Beams = massive multi-target AOE attack or extra damage on single target, and that's just from BFAW.
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    bareel linked this back in 2013, thanking maelwys in the process: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Asu87Jb5VCBgdFFQLVQtdENLUVE0dlBOZnZPQ09DUHc#gid=0

    Beams

    0km 100.0%
    1km 100.0%
    2km 96.0%
    3km 92.0%
    4km 88.0%
    5km 84.0%
    6km 80.0%
    7km 76.0%
    8km 72.0%
    9km 68.0%
    <10km 64.0%

    Cannons

    0km 100.0%
    1km 100.0%
    2km 95.0%
    3km 87.5%
    4km 80.0%
    5km 72.5%
    6km 65.0%
    7km 57.5%
    8km 50.0%
    9km 42.5%
    <10km 40.0%

    Keeping in mind...

    DHC: 174 DPV / 99.4 DPS; 45 arc
    DC: 87 DPV / 99.4 DPS; 45 arc
    Cannon: 72 DPV / 82.3 DPS; 180 arc
    Turret: 45 DPV / 51.4 DPS; 360 arc
    DBB: 130 DPV / 94.5 DPS; 90 arc
    Array: 100 DPV / 72.7 DPS; 250 arc

    But I'm not going to get into the various Weapon Enhancement Abilities.
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    So at 5 km a Beam Array is doing 61.068 DPS and a DHC is doing 72.065 DPS.

    It's still about skill. Cannons do more damage if you have the skill to use them.
  • jarvisandalfredjarvisandalfred Member Posts: 1,549 Bug Hunter
    edited May 2015
    darkjeff wrote: »
    So at 5 km a Beam Array is doing 61.068 DPS and a DHC is doing 72.065 DPS.

    It's still about skill. Cannons do more damage if you have the skill to use them.

    That's solely based off drop-off, and doesn't factor in a few other things:

    CSV hits 3 targets per shot, FAW is 2 per shot.

    CSV has a 66% uptime, FAW has a 50% uptime.

    Cannons will proc per-shot and per-cycle things more often than beams.


    FAW is an ensign->Ltc ability, CSV is a lt->cmdr ability - this makes the boff builds of beamboats inherently stronger.

    Firing cycles mean that beams will fire at consistently higher weapon power levels.

    Beams (and DBB's) have wider arc, and thus have more targets to hit and at closer range. (most of the time, to hit multiple targets, you have to be farther away than the 1/2km drop-off range from all of them, especially the secondaries).

    ---

    Empirically speaking, DBB's do the most damage if you have the skill to use them. You're more than welcome to prove me wrong, but I'd be surprised (to be wrong, not if it was you that did it).
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    darkjeff wrote: »
    So at 5 km a Beam Array is doing 61.068 DPS and a DHC is doing 72.065 DPS.

    It's still about skill. Cannons do more damage if you have the skill to use them.

    It gets kind of complicated...kind of...heh/meh.

    Say we grabbed a 4/4 Battlecruiser and ran it at 5km.

    4x DHCs & 4x Turrets vs. 8x Beams

    DHCs/Turrets: (4 * 72.065) + (4 * 37.265) = 288.26 + 149.06 = 437.32
    Beams: 8 * 61.068 = 488.544

    Where the DHCs/Turrets are looking at a 45 arc vs. the Beams with a 70 arc.

    Move that to 3km...

    DHCs/Turrets: 437.32 / 0.725 * 0.875 = 527.8
    Beams: 488.544 / 0.84 * 0.92 = 535.072

    Move that to 2km...

    DHCs/Turrets: 527.8 / 0.875 * 0.95 = 573.04
    Beams: 535.072 / 0.92 * 0.96 = 558.336

    Which is where it basically gets into needing to be at less than 3km...

    Then one gets into the Weapon Enhancement Abilities, eh?

    FAW will hit anything within the 250 arc of the Beams. CSV is a cone.

    With that cone, one has to picture it...so to speak. Here, I'll drop out a V.

    V

    The closer one is to the target, the less wide the cone is. So the ability to hit multiple targets is going to require clumping them or being further away and eating more range penalty to get them there.

    Then there are all sorts of other things at play too, yeah?

    Improved Pedal to the Metal....that Beam boat circling a target (not recommended against shielded targets cause you'll be hitting multiple shield facings and missing out on the hull damage resistance debuffs boosting damage)...up to +20% All Damage.
    Beam Barrage...up to 6% Bonus Beam Damage.

    The Cannon guy isn't going to be doing either of those.

    Doh, almost forgot to mention one would have to figure in the CrtD from the DHCs up there. But that would be something to keep in mind.

    Course, with the introduction of the OD and ODs...that allowed for a shift from Arrays to DBBs. Changing things again in Beam/FAW's favor.

    There's also the change in Subsystem Power that took place. With drain mechanics, a Beam user used to have to sacrifice more power from elsewhere to maintain the same prevention to loss of power...the Cannon guy finding that at ~135 while the Beam guy was looking at 180-200. That power had to come from somewhere...and...it used to be an opportunity cost where one had to sacrifice power. But we just ooze power these days, and that's just not the concern it was.

    There have just been all these individual little changes here and there over the years...which just keep buffing and buffing Beams and FAW compared to Cannons.

    If Cannons were the better choice or even a comparable choice...it would be a case of seeing them. It's not about skill in that sense, cause those skilled folks would be rocking them if they were comparable, on par, etc...but they're not, eh?
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